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Plaid Adder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 03:49 PM
Original message
Catholics and Pastorgate
Edited on Thu May-01-08 04:22 PM by Plaid Adder
I was listening this morning to a story on the Indiana primary on the local NPR affiliate. They sent one of their reporters down to Hammond to ask Democratic voters about Wright and Obama. It cheered me up to see how hard they had to work to get at least some of these voters to say that they could see how it might be a problem for him, but that it wasn't going to affect their decision. One of the last people they talked to expressed frustration with the whole issue. He said he didn't care about the fact that Obama's pastor was a "jerk." Why? Because, he said, he's Catholic; and given the number of Catholic priests who have been exposed for doing things a lot worse than shooting their mouths off in public, he thinks it's a bad idea to get into the habit of judging people based on what their pastors do.

This connected with a strain of the ongoing conversation about Wright that we've had in our Dancing With The Stars and Spiritual Enquiry Group, which meets every Monday night at our place after PJ goes to bed. DWTS, of course, is an engagingly dorky reality show and has nothing to do with spirituality; it just so happens that all the people who come over to watch it with us are connected to a Christian religious organization in some way. It also so happens that all of us have at some point in our lives been Catholic; the only guy in the group was raised Protestant but converted, whereas the four of us women were raised Catholic but have left the church in one way or another. Anyway, even since round 1, all of us have been tremendously frustrated by what seems to us to be the idiotic assumption that because you sit in the congregation, that automatically means that you agree with everything in the sermon.

To a lot of American Catholics, that assumption seems not only groundless, but offensive. First of all, we've all been stereotyped by Protestants for long enough as credulous priestridden idiots who will believe anything the Vatican tells us, and we're tired of hearing it. For the same reasons, it seems unfair to us that all of Wright's parishioners should be assumed to be the unreasoning tools of a demagogue. Though now that I think about it, in a lot of ways "pastorgate" reprises some of the attacks launched against Kennedy when he was running for president; the "Black church" is as alien and scary to the presumed mainstream white voters as the Catholic church was back in the day, and racism predisposes its adherents to believe that Wright's parishioners are too stupid, ignorant, or lazy to form their own opinions, just as anti-Catholicism predisposed its adherents to believe that a Catholic president would serve Rome first and the U.S.A. second.

Second, certain aspects of Catholic doctrine which get propounded by the Vatican and preached at the pulpit are nevertheless tacitly rejected by many American Catholics--and, though most of them won't admit it, a fair number of American priests. Even fairly hard-core pro-life Catholics, for instance, routinely use birth control; the Church's ban on most fertility treatments is likewise widely disregarded. Most of the American Catholics I know also vehemently reject the official position on homosexuality (which is that our sexuality is inherently disordered, our relationships inherently evil, and our families instruments of child abuse) because their own experiences and their own consciences tell them that this is a crock. Technically, Catholics who have divorced and remarried are not supposed to receive communion; but a lot of them do it anyway, and usually nobody tries to stop them.

Third, the refrain you hear from the Clinton campaign and elsewhere that Obama would/should have left the church if he didn't agree with Wright's views doesn't make much sense to Catholics, especially those who are for one reason or another disappointed in or alienated from the Church hierarchy. The reason is pretty simple: lay Catholics don't hire their own priests. Parish priests are appointed from above, and though in some cases there is a process of negotiation which tries to ensure that a thriving congregation continues to thrive, it's also not unheard of for the diocese to punish a 'disobedient' congregation--one where, say, the outgoing priest allowed girl altar servers--by sending them an arch-conservative who has been chosen precisely because he's completely out of step with the congregation. When that happens, some people are inevitably driven away; but just as many will stay in the congregation because the community is important to them, and deal with the priest as best they can. Because Catholics have so little control over a) who their priests are and b) what Catholic doctrine is, those who for whatever reason can't swallow the Vatican line are used to putting up with priests (and bishops, and Popes) that they don't agree with for the sake of maintaining their membership in a church they love.

I'd like to hope that this would work in Obama's favor, at least at the primary level. We shall see. But at least now I know why my blood has been boiling so much over this stupid manufactured controversy. I finally made the decision to stop going to a church where I was going to hear me and mine vilified on a regular basis; but many friends and relatives whose integrity I respect and whose spirituality I admire have stayed with the object of fighting for what they see as the _real_ church and changing it from within. It's unbelievably condescending, not to say inaccurate, to simply assume that by sitting in a pew you are endorsing whatever comes from the pulpit.

C ya,

The Plaid Adder
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noel711 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
1. Thank you Plaid...
Seems this 'non-issue' still has folks boiling
over... 'choose your pastor' doesn't apply in
many cases...
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 03:56 PM
Response to Original message
2. When you are a politician it DOES mean you are endorsing. Ask Rudy Giuliani,
whose ass is in a sling for taking communion at the Pope-a-palooza in Yankee Stadium. Ask John Kerry, who's in the same Catholic hot water.

There's a different standard for politicians. You can't be cavalier, you have to be more serious and more "theological." You have to be AWARE.

Ask Mitt Romney, he'll tell ya.
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Plaid Adder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. There certainly seems to be a double standard in effect for black politicians.
None of the examples you've suggested seem to me like reasonable comparisons. Romney's entire campaign was based on pandering to right-wing Christians as One Of Them; that made it inevitable that the fact that he was a Mormon would become a problem. It amazes me that no one on his staff realized that right-wing Christians want to vote for a Christian; but that's a completely different problem from the one the media has created for Obama.

Kerry was under attack for taking communion and being pro-choice. Opinion is divided on whether it is ethical or consistent with Catholic doctrine to deny politicians the sacrament on that basis, but in any case that's an instance of a politician being punished for publicly dissenting from his religion's established doctrine. If Obama was being pilloried in the media for having said that he didn't believe in the divinity of Christ but still worshipping in a Christian church, maybe that comparison would be meaningful. As it is, I think it's apples and oranges. Nothing in Christian doctrine obliges one to believe that America has been damned for its homicidal foreign policies or that AIDS is a government conspiracy.

I am not familiar with the Giuliani incident but I assume it has something to do with the fact that his well-known marital and sexual escapades would put him in the category of people who shouldn't receive communion, and yet he took it anyway. In that case, there's pretty much no relationship between his case and Obama's, for reasons given above.

When I see the media going after McCain because he hasn't publicly renounced the lunatic opinions professed by the right-wing Christian demagogues he's been quietly sucking up to for the past several years I'll reconsider your claim. I think it'll be a while, though.

The Plaid Adder

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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-02-08 06:01 AM
Response to Reply #4
17. Really?
I don't recall anyone going after my governor for his religious practices. Or my former Senator, Ed Brooke, now revealed to be the paramour of Barbra Walters. Or that other black Republican, JC Watts. Or Jesse Jackson, Jr. Or Elijah Cummings, or John Lewis, or any members of the BCC. This is the ONLY guy I've seen "attacked" in this fashion, because this is the only guy I've seen who has a plainly flaky pastor. It's not a black thing, it's a flaky pastor thing.

The Giuliani incident happened recently. It has to do with his views on CHOICE, not his marital escapades. Basically, Rudy went up against the church on a woman's right to have abortion available to her, and the arch-conservatives have been dogging him for it.

One more time--McCain has RENOUNCED and REJECTED Hagee's comments. And Hagee is NOT his pastor. It is NOT the same. And the media HAS "gone after" McCain, but not with the same fervor, because IT IS NOT THE SAME. Hagee is NOT his pastor.


http://www.npr.org/blogs/news/2008/04/mccain_hagees_comments_about_n.html?ft=1
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #2
13. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-02-08 06:04 AM
Response to Reply #13
18. Well, not with voters, because he's not running for anything anymore. DUH.
Weren't you CLEVER to note that.

I am not "dishonest" at all. You're tiresome, though. And whinily accusatory. And suggesting that people here aren't Democrats because they don't agree with YOU is against the forum rules--try reading them, there, before you shoot off your mouth again.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-02-08 03:11 AM
Response to Reply #2
15. Are you kidding? Giuliani's ass is hardly in the sling.
Egan said something about it, when asked, for form's sake. Nothing more.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-02-08 06:06 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. For form's sake? No, they're serious. The right wing of the Catholic crowd wants him
excommunicated as a WARNING to others. Haven't you paid attention to that spitting buffoon from the Catholic League?
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-02-08 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #19
24. Nothing's going to happen no matter what Donahue says.
That's my prediction.

Egan said what he said to placate them. But that's as far as it will go.
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
3. We've been in the same parish 20 some years now. Our current pastor
is an A+ jerk. No way are we leaving; we figure we can outlast him easily!
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. he`s "just passing through....."
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 08:35 PM
Response to Original message
5. your insight into this religious issue is spot on.
you are always a voice of reason ....:-)
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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 08:35 PM
Response to Original message
6. Amen.
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
8. Amen
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Condem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 08:40 PM
Response to Original message
9. The Catholics are a tough group, Adder.
I was raise a staunch one but, frankly, I now find it archaic. I still respect the shit out of it.
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 09:04 PM
Response to Original message
10. kickity, good post....execellent points
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tomreedtoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 10:30 PM
Response to Original message
11. But what about other conservative Christian churches?
As a "collapsed Catholic," who lives in Baptist country, I see a lot of people who publicly support whatever their particular preachers say. For them to claim Catholics walk in lockstep with the Pope, and that this is wrong, is kinda hypocritical to me.

That they often "cheat" in private, having abortions, taking part in extramarital affairs, and going to the heart of homosexual evil, Walt Disney World, is a matter of shame for them. Of course, they can always say they have "seen the light" and "been forgiven." But they still enforce obedience.
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-02-08 06:20 AM
Response to Reply #11
22. Not to mention they've molested just as many, if not more, kids. n/t
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-02-08 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #11
25. Don't forget that the Bible Belt has the highest divorce rate in the country
and good old Massachusetts, the lowest.
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Bear down under Donating Member (289 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
12. Amen!
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-01-08 11:08 PM
Response to Original message
14. Great post.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-02-08 03:12 AM
Response to Original message
16. I've been thinking along much the same lines. Thanks for taking the time
to write and for putting it so well.

Recommended.
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Maribelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-02-08 06:14 AM
Response to Original message
20. It appears Obama supporters do not understand.
Edited on Fri May-02-08 06:15 AM by Maribelle
When Hillary said she would have left the church - - it meant she would have walked out the door of the building the hate- mongering, racist and dishonest paster was in. "He would not have been her pastor"

Most Catholics would also leave the building, and even leave the parish, should they hear hate mongering from the pastor of the parish, or worse learn of a sinning/crime committing pastor. And many have done just that.

Why am I not surprised that Obama followers are clueless regarding this term of leaving the church, and attempt to build a pile of hate over their false innuendos?
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-02-08 06:14 AM
Response to Original message
21. Thanks.
As someone brought up Catholic, that's how I feel about the issue as well.
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AwakeAtLast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-02-08 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
23. Thanks for your bird's eye view, PA!
I've missed your posts - great to see you! :hi:
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