In a perfect world, each time HRC brags about her "experience," look at these photos...

[HardWorkingDem]

She voted for this goddamned war and the bombs the US has let loose....

[dugggy]

1. We were nowhere near Iraq before 911

[TechBear_Seattle]

3. Not only are you wrong, you are VERY wrong

Do some research on Gulf War I, the crippling embargo that the US implemented and enforced under Bush I, extended under Clinton I and continued under Bush II. Do some research on Clinton I's "no-fly" zones and the bombing raids that he had the US military do on dams, roads and other infrastructure which directly led to the deaths of thousands and the misery of millions in Iraq.

As Senator, HRC not only did nothing to mitigate the damage perpetrated by her husband, she consistently voted to continue these policies under Bush II.

[Poll_Blind]

6. Straight-up, TechBear. That whole aspect to Iraq seems to be almost...

...completely forgotten even though we seemed to be blowing up this or that in Iraq every couple of days.

PB

[RaleighNCDUer]

10. And despite all that we did to Iraq over a ten year period

they STILL had nothing to do with 9/11.

[dugggy]

35. Nobody said Iraq War Resolution was retribution for 911

It was to PREVENT future 911's, only much more serious
since Saddam once had a working nuclear reactor and
therefore the nuclear knowhow. He had a history of
using WMD's on civilians. He rewarded terrorists in
Israel with $25,000 checks to their families. Hillary
was 100% correct in voting for IWR.

The fact that Bush43 mis-managed the war is NOT Hillary's fault.

[RaleighNCDUer]

42. Thanks, Rummy, your input is appreciated.

SADDAM WAS NEVER A FUCKING THREAT.

HE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH ISLAMIST TERROR - THEY HATED HIM MORE THAN THEY HATED US.

How many fucking rightwing memes can you fit into one fucking paragraph?

[dugggy]

74. How come then the islamists never attacked Iraq?

I have not heard of any suicide bombings in Iraq during
Saddam's regime. Also, why was Saddam paying $25,000 to
families of suicide bombers? That was a lot money in the
1990's in the middle-east to a poorer family.

[boppers]

77. Wow, you really don't know your facts.

You know *why* terrorist attacks were kept to a minimum during Saddam's regime? It's because when somebody was a suspect, Saddam would not only kill you, but your whole village.

That's *why* people make the argument that Saddam used WMD's against his own people... because when he suspected, for example, that a town in the north was harboring terrorists, he shelled the whole town with poison.

As far as giving widows and orphans money, we do that in the United States, too, because it's the right thing to do. In the ME, it's part of the pillars of Islam.

[TechBear_Seattle]

45. Wow. So the Junta lied about even that?

For several years, the misAdministration and its media lap-dogs were quite insistant: We invaded Iraq, overthrew its government, engaged in carpet bombing with radioactive waste materials and cause unbelievable chaos, destruction and misery, all because Saddam Hussein was the principle financial and ideological backer of the 9/11 attacks.

I wonder, do you work for the Ministry of Truth? Because you have this doublethink down pretty damned well.

[dugggy]

67. You are stating "virtual" (as in imaginary) facts, sir!

Do you happen to have a link to any memo from any government source,
repug or dem which states that IWR was for revenge of 911?

[grantcart]

50. interesting point of view. not one that is heard here often

It would be interesting to have you start a thread and put the case for IWR and Hillary's vote in a clear and non emotional manner.

[dugggy]

68. Hillary's IWR vote was justified based on

the intelligence available at the time of vote. Period.

I would rather have her vote to safeguard future attacks
than take a chance on more murders of civilians.

[boppers]

76. She didn't read the intelligence. She didn't read the freaking NIE.

Therefore, the claim that she based her vote on the "intelligence available at the time" is wrong.

[Lerkfish]

56. wow. De Nile is a long and deep river

and many who drink there lose themselves and fall in, never to be seen again.

[dugggy]

70. Have any links or just shooting off the cuff?

[pompano]

58. I had no idea...

Kool-Aid is being sold in 55 gallon drums these days? All those different flavors to? :shrug:

You bit hook, line and sinker, huh?

To prevent future 911's? Tell us again how many Iraqui's flew planes into buildings that day?

[dugggy]

71. Read my post more carefully....

I NEVER said IWR was direct retribution for 911 murders.
It was the logical outcome of knowing Saddam's history and
to prevent him for possibly handing WMD's to terrorists.

[YDogg]

60. jesus

[dugggy]

34. Not a single American soldier was on the ground in Iraq on 911

and for many years before that as a matter of fact.
Saddam invaded Kuwait and was spanked by Bush41.
He was spanked again because he was violating the
agreements he signed after Gulf War I.

The problem I have with Iraq war of 2003 is that
it was badly mis-managed. Bush43 sucks as a C in C.

[TechBear_Seattle]

44. Which is not at all what you said above

No, we did not have ground troops in Iraq. Rather, we stole half of Iraq's sovereign air space and not only shot down Iraqi planes that tried to assert national sovereignty, we used that air space to conduct frequent bombing raids on dams, power plants, water treatment facilities, roads and other vital infrastructure, DIRECTLY leading to the deaths of thousands of Iraqi civilians and indirectly to the deaths of tens of thousands due to there being no electricity for hospitals or home heating, no potable water and no access to areas that had food, water and heat. All of this was started under Bush I, greatly expanded upon under Clinton and (with Senator Clinton's full knowledge and support) continued under Bush II. Add to that the US' thorough -- I will go so far as to say brutal -- enforcement of embargoes which prevented food, medicine and other vital necessities from entering the country, resulting in many more deaths and extensive misery.

Those are facts. Denying them will not change anything.

[dugggy]

72. Everything we did post Gulf war I was to force compliance

by Saddam to the agreement he signed as a defeated leader of
the Kuwait invasion.

[Catherine Vincent]

2. Yeah, Hillary is the blame for all the deaths from the Iraq war.

Nevermind Bush and Cheney's role.

:eyes:

[HardWorkingDem]

4. No, here's the thing....

EVERY Democratic senator from AT LEAST safe seats, like HRC, should have voted "no"...but what did her "experience" lead her to do? Give untold power to a bumbling idiot who had failed at everything in his life.

Hell, giving Bush that authority would be like giving Otis from The Andy Griffith Show the keys to a Corvette on the autobahn with a car load of kids.

[marew]

27. You are SOOOO right!

She's just another political lemming. She'll go with the crowd, do anything to get what she wants or what might make her look good. I used to respect her but no more. Under sniper fire, really!?! Come on, what idiot would let the First Lady get off a plane if there was a potential of getting shot? I knew that was completely bogus the first time I heard it!

[Evergreen Emerald]

40. And Obama gets his free pass for voting for the war again and again

you and your double standards.

[Political Heretic]

52. I don't support cold cut off of funds either. Doesn't mean I supported the vote to invade.

:shrug:

[nichomachus]

19. It's not "either-or" -- there's enough blame to go around

[KoKo]

63. Dems voted for John Kerry who voted for Iraq Resolution...Hillary represents NYS

and the groundswell for Invasion coming from her some of her constituents was very strong...

I can see more why Hillary would vote for IWR...than I could understand why in the world John Kerry would because he protested against Vietnam...and knew what would happen.

[Enrique]

5. I trust Hillary to end the war in Iraq

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/news/release/view/?id=4936

The Clinton Campaign announced today the endorsement of U.S. Rep. Lynn Woolsey of California’s sixth Congressional District. The Congresswoman cited Senator Clinton’s commitment to ending the war in Iraq as the top reason for her backing.

"Hillary Clinton is the candidate with the strength and experience to bring about the change that California families need," said Rep. Woolsey. "I trust Hillary to end the war in Iraq, bring our troops home quickly and safely, and regain our nation’s standing around the world."

Congresswoman Lynn Woolsey is serving her eighth term representing all of Marin, and most of Sonoma County.

As Co-Chair of the Congressional Progressive Caucus, Congresswoman Woolsey is a vocal and visible leader on progressive issues, particularly those dealing with children and families. A passionate and outspoken opponent of the Iraq war, she has helped move public opinion against President Bush’s failed Iraq policy. She introduced the first resolution calling for our troops to be brought home and convened the first congressional hearing on military exit strategies. The San Jose Mercury News recently called her "the unofficial matriarch of the movement in Congress."

[Life Long Dem]

7. And I wouldn't trust her not to continue on with war.

[Enrique]

9. Woolsey's words are more convincing to me than your graphics

I don't trust overly propagandistic forms of argument.

[1776Forever]

18. You said it! Kyle-Lieberman - Obliteration! Go Rambabe! You show 'em........

[RaleighNCDUer]

12. And how does anti-war activist Woolsey justify such faith in Hillary

after Hillary's vote for IWR, for K/L, against banning land mines, against banning cluster bombs, saying "I'll obliterate Iran".

Seems to be a HUGE fucking disconnect there.

[Webster Green]

15. Goddammit!....Lynn Woolsey is my Congresswoman..

I was hoping she would endorse Obama. I'm pissed!:mad:

[nichomachus]

I hope you have an adult to help you handle money

[truedelphi]

28. Although I am a huge fan of Woolsey's, I am not happy with this decision of hers

Woolsey voted against the IWR. She took some hard blows for doing that, not from people in her district, but from the RW slimeballs who always attack sensible Democrats.

It totally shocked me when she came out for HRC.

[LaurenG]

31. No one can convince me that she plans to end war, she actually

voted for Iraq and is now touting that she'd obliterate Iran. Why would anyone believe that she'll stop war when she has told you in every way she knows how (other that straight forwardly) that she'll not do any such thing.

She's a war monger for her corporate jesus.

[solidguild]

53. Of course she will... she has to amp up the fairy tale rhetoric about phony Iranian nukes and

get us marching to war with them next!

[BigBearJohn]

8. Barrack could have sponsored a bill to end the war. If he is so against the war, why hasn't he?

[kerry-is-my-prez]

11. and Obama voted to fund it... he supported it when it got down to brass tacks.

n/t

[Exilednight]

25. Let's be honest. Cutting funding will not bring the troops home. Bush is crazy enough to leave ...

them there without any funding. Better to give the troops the right equipment to stay safe. We bitched about our soldiers being over there without body armor and armored vehicles, now you want to slam a man for keeping our soldiers safe?

[styersc]

55. Cutting funding is what ended the war in Vietnam.

Obama's opposition to the war is all rhetoric. If he wanted to end this war he would be on the floor fillibustering bills and drumming up support. His sincerity stops when it comes to being effective.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

64. This is not Vietnam.

Richard Nixon, for all his flaws, was not a complete sociopath.

[MH1]

57. Exactly.

[davsand]

26. Not to be snarky but aren't we supposed to pay our soldiers?

Unless we have funding how are we supposed to pay our troops?

Isn't it bad enough that they are there based on lies? Are we supposed to compound that by telling them they are there doing this shit for free???

The logic here eludes me. I fail to see how NOT funding the troops that are already THERE is gonna help end this war. It isn't LIKE they can just say, "Ok, I am SO out of here if you are not gonna pay me..."


Laura

[mrreowwr_kittty]

65. I remember during the budget showdown in 93, there was talk of us not getting paid.

I was enlisted in the Navy at the time, and believe you me, most of us were biting our nails over it. Enlisted folks live paycheck to paycheck.

[TK421]

13. It's ALL HER FAULT...and NO..posting sensitive pictures like this will NOT sway my support for her!

Cheap-ass tactic...as if she is DIRECTLY responsible for this! Asshole...didn't work this time, trust me

Why don't you people ( and I use that term very loosely ) try using another tactic?

[HardWorkingDem]

16. SHE is the one who BRAGS about her experience...

And this is my point - she says she is so experienced, but what does she do? She capitulates to George Bush - what kind of experience is that?!?!?

And if I'm an asshole for bringing it out, then so be it, but it doesn't say jack shit about her "experience" or the thinking of those that think her experience is so grand.

[TK421]

69. Posting a picture like this is sure to bring an emotional response ( albeit a negative one )

understandably...but this is used as smear! Nobody is denying this has happened, but to post graphic pictures such as this is BOUND to draw negative attention and somehow a link to Hillarys IWR vote ( which, I have stated in a previous thread about Kerrys vote on this, and there wasn't quite such a backlash ) I voted for Kerry, despite the swift-boat smears and smears like THIS ONE. And YET many of us here at DU were convinced during that last election that it was stolen, and the vast majority of voters went to Kerry ( who, if president now, I'm certain we still wouldn't be in this mess ). This SAME SMEAR is being used against Hillary....a RIGHT WING smear tactic, if I might add.

[tekisui]

20. It is a simple fact that we have two choices.

One who supported, gave speeches about the need for and authorized an illegal and unfounded war.

And, one who spoke out against it, calling it for what is was, and ended up being right about the crippling effect on our country, our economy and our military.

Of course chimpy, dickie and their war crimes administration is to blame. But, they did it with the support of many Democrats.

This war was a mistake, and illegal. It broke out country and we are suffering a recession and losing many lives because of it. The experts and inspectors at the time told us it was a big mistake.

If I have the choice to vote for someone who understood that at the time, or someone who either bought the propaganda or supported it's aims....
I choose the one who got it right.

[RiverStone]

30. Yes, it is a bad tactic --- I prefer simply stating the truth

I agree TK421, using those pics was very insensitive. The grief of that family should NEVER be politicized in any way.

That being said, Hillary shares in the fault for her IWR vote and for supporting Kyle/Lieberman. For reasons I can't fathom, she either buys into the war mongering (i.e. obliterate Iran) or she is waving the sword to be politically expedient.
Which is it???

I want a president dedicated to peace, she has blood on her hands - but so do many others.

Obama has far, far less to wash off.


peace~:)

[Hoof Hearted]

14. why didn't Obama, since he's so damn good, spend the last two years trying to end the war?

Did he, or did he not continue to fund it?

[Obamanaut]

17. I do not like Hillary, but one cannot put the entire Iraq fiasco on

her shoulders alone.

[Faygo Kid]

21. It's not on her shoulders alone. But no way does she get a pass on her vote to enable Bush.

Millions of us knew in EARLY 2002 that war was inevitable unless the Dems could stop Bush. Dozens of Dem senators voted against the authorization. Hundreds of thousands of Americans took to the streets, millions more opposed the vote, and made their opinions clear.

John Edwards has apologized for the vote. He is contrite about the worst decision he made as a senator. But not Hillary. Oh no. She has gone way, way out on a limb and finally, in the heat of this campaign, said she would take it back if she could.

It's why I have never been in her corner. I was devastated in 2002, and have no desire to say "I told you so" even though I and millions like me were right. She gets no pass here, and I cannot support her for the nomination. Period.

[marew]

22. Face it!

No, it is not on her shoulders alone but she participated!!! I never voted for Bush because I looked at what he'd done all his life. Bush has lied, manipulated, run business after business into the ground and daddy's rich friends repeatedly bailed him out. Did she really think all of a sudden he'd tell the truth about anything? If I had been in Hillary's shoes, I'd never have believed all his lies but she swallowed what Bush said hook, line, and sinker. If she is that gullible that she believed anything Bush said (based on his own history of lies and manipulations), she should never be president. She's too damn stupid!

[rodeodance]

23. *****YOU USE THE DEAD CHILDREN TO MAKE YOUR SMEAR POLITICAL STATEMENT********

[LaurenG]

32. Who voted for that war rodeodance? Who?

as soon as you realize that people who voted for it are RESPONSIBLE for that child's death the better off we'll all be. She had something to do with his death like it or not!

[golddigger]

33. And who keeps funding it, pathetic, Du has reach a new low.

[LaurenG]

37. I don't know

the majority of them? The politics of war is brutal and getting us out will be much harder then voting for it to start with.

My feeling is that the weasel (bush) would have found a way into war with or without the approval of Senator Clinton. However, I knew it was bs, so did millions of others yet the vote was made to go. I hold those who voted to go all accountable. At least there are many who now have apologized and openly stared they were wrong.

Senator Clinton says whatever she thinks will get her votes at the time. She will be a war president as well if she can get the funding and it's my opinion that she'd keep the middle east in a mess as long as McCain would.

There is no peace within her, there is only competition and ego, something we all need to think about since that's what we're dealing with now and have been for the last 7 years. So yes it IS pathetic. Thankfully many of us see through the sham of Senator Clinton as well.

It's time for a leader who can build relationships with enough diplomacy not to incite the neighbors of our friends, simply to look tough!

"A sincere affection between... two peoples is the broadest basis on which their peace can be built." --Thomas Jefferson to Comte de Vergennes, 1785. Papers 8:656

"How much better is it for neighbors to help than to hurt one another; how much happier must it make them. If will cease to make war on one another, if will live in friendship with all mankind, can employ all time in providing food and clothing for and . men will not be destroyed in war, women and children will lie down to sleep in their without fear of being surprised by their enemies and killed or carried away. numbers will be increased instead of diminished and will live in plenty and in quiet." --Thomas Jefferson: Address to Mandar Nation, 1806. (*) ME 16:414

"The desire to preserve our country from the calamities and ravages of war by cultivating a disposition and pursuing a conduct conciliatory and friendly to all nations has been sincerely entertained and faithfully followed . It was dictated by the principles of humanity, the precepts of the gospel and the general wish of our country." --Thomas Jefferson: Reply to Address, 1807.


No more war, period.

[HardWorkingDem]

39. Unfortunately, it is shown again...

HRC supporters can't stay with the point at hand, i.e., her claim of her wonderful experience.

But to answer the continued funding - sadly, our troops are tied to pure, pragmatic politics and most likely no Democrat could survive cutting off funding at this time in the presidential election. If one tried, countless ads would be made about leaving our soldiers behind.

[RaleighNCDUer]

43. Hillary Clinton, among others.

What's your point? That the proper stand is to cut off support for troops in the field?

THEN WHY DOESN'T HILLARY STOP FUNDING IT?

[rodeodance]

24. ****FLAME-BAIT***

[HardWorkingDem]

38. F#%$in BS....She is the one..

Who keeps touting her experience.

I don't know about any others here but from the fucking start of Bush's march to war, I KNEW it was bullshit. I knew his facts were lies. And I knew just from the god damned media.

When you have ENGINEERS debunking lies about aluminum tubes and scientists debunking lies about mobile death labs and photographs of Hussein's balsa wood drones, you don't need goddamned CIA intelligence to tell you what not to believe.

ANYONE with half a brain knew the march into Iraq was built on LIES. And HRC voted for the fiasco and dares brag about her experience??!?!?

She deserves every ounce of ridicule for voting with Bush and not the opportunity to blather on about 35 years of experience.

But then again, let's be fair here - this is the same woman who was oblivious to her husband getting hummers in the most secure location in the free world. So what does that say about experience?

[TK421]

73. You know what? This is the equivalent of posting a Jewish prisoner in an oven

and posting it on YouTube in order to get your point across that anti-Semitism is just WRONG....everyone KNOWS it's wrong, but the picture itself is unnecessarily disturbing and graphic that the the only meaning that can be taken from it ( at this point ) is shock value...and it has succeeded...

[EFerrari]

29. I watched a toddler being extracted from rubble on Friday

on Amy's show. Of course, he was dead. There was no commentary. It was devastating.

[Beausoir]

47. And...did Obama vote to fund the continued killing of children?

Yes.

[tabasco]

36. Experience doesn't mean a damn thing when you are a gutless, pandering coward

like Hillary.

[golddigger]

41. And what pray tell has the gutless wonder Obama done?

[Beausoir]

48. He voted to keep killing those kids.

[QC]

49. Voted for war funding every time it has come up.

If I wanted to conduct myself with an absolute lack of class or common decency, like the Kool Kiddies at DU these days, I could go so far as to say that he voted to buy the weapons that killed those kids, but I really don't want to lower myself to that point.

[Beausoir]

46. Obama voted to keep killing those kids. He has blood on his hands.

[LaurenG]

59. Spin it in whatever way you must to keep yourself in denial

There is nothing to be done at this point except to fund the troops. Please think about who made up the lies about the war and WHO voted for it. I realize how hard this can be for some people but not for me, the war is an atrocity and Senator Clinton was fine with going into Iraq just like she decided she would obliterate Iran should she hear of them messing with her friends!!

We need a responsible person as president not some politician mouthing words and saying "uh huh" to suit the moment or when it helps her. How about some integrity for the next 8 years rather than a mean spirited win at any cost scrapper. I've had enough of that haven't you?

[grantcart]

51. "In a perfect world" we wouldn't be in this fucking war thanks for the thread

[Tactical Progressive]

54. I think that kid was injured after Obama voted to extend the war

Time after time after time after time after time.
After Obama pretended to be the 'anti-war' candidate to get elected.

I wonder if the parents used to tuck the kid in and tell him the fairy-tale of anti-war Obama?

[gristy]

61. Odd, that.

Wondering why you started your subject line with "In a perfect world"...

[HardWorkingDem]

62. Ask and you shall be told...

If you go back and re-examine the vote to authorize Bush's fantasies, you will clearly see that many, many Democrats clearly capitulated to this march out of political fear. The sad part is many Democrats did not have to do such a thing because they were in "safe" seats and had no real fear of losing their seats.

Besides, I would have rather seen the US Congress lose Democratic seats by doing the right thing, but instead they failed to examine the evidence and do what was right and bent to fear.

And this is what HRC keeps touting as her biggest asset.

[Catherina]

66. I've changed my sig line. It has your thread title and a link to more photos

http://www.thefourreasons.org/victimsofwar.htm

Thank you

[Zachstar]

75. Horrific Photos