Would you tell this woman to "shut up and get with the program"?

[theHandpuppet]

Would you tell this woman to "shut up and get with the program" if Hillary was the nominee of the party?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/04/michelle-obama-ill-thi_n_84900.html

This morning on Good Morning America:

ROBERTS: So what if Senator Clinton defeats her husband, becoming the first woman nominee. Could you see yourself working to support the first woman nomination?

(Michelle) OBAMA: I'd have to think about that. I'd have to think about that, her policies, her approach, her tone.

ROBERTS: That's not a given?

OBAMA: You know, everyone in this party is going to work hard for whoever the nominee is. I think that we're all working for the same thing. and, you know, I think our goal is to make sure that the person in the White House is going to take this country in a different direction. I happen to believe that Barack is the only person who can really do that.

*******

I'm really weary of all the posts slamming many Hillary supporters who have pretty much expressed the same feelings about Obama as the potential (and likely) party nominee. The nomination process isn't even over yet -- though it may be soon -- and some among you have been hounding Hillary's supporters for weeks now to "shut up and get with the program!" to an extent I'd consider it bullying. Yes, to some of us it DOES feel like bullying, and putting people in a defensive position does NOTHING to gain you allies.

Look, I have great respect for Michelle Obama and though I might not agree with her obvious choice for the nomination, I also respect her right to express reservations or caution about actively supporting a candidate with whom she may have sincere doubts or deeply held differences over policy. May we be afforded the same?

As a lifelong Democrat who believes in the democratic process first and foremost, I say let the process play out. Truly, I don't need to pass your litmus test for what defines party loyalty. What I DO need is to think long and hard about where I stand and in what direction the party is going. I don't want to be a Dem who votes the party line just because I fear the Republican more.

Frankly, I'm at a point where the constant drumbeat of "Roe vs Wade!" "Roe vs Wade!" sounds more like the same type of political blackmail to which, as a gay person in America, I've caved from election to election. I've been told my whole adult, political life to either play along or the party will take it's ball and go home. Or rather, they'll take the ball for which I've fought long and hard and simply get a new team. Being gay and a woman who now sees the opportunity slipping away for a woman, and one long supportive of gays and women's rights, to be chief executive of the United States, I am feeling pretty disillusioned. I actively campaigned for Clinton and Gore through two elections and sincerely believe Senator Clinton would also do a fabulous job in turning this country around from the mess the Bushreich has made of it.

So there you have it. That's where I'm at and I'm pretty certain there are a number of Senator Clinton's supporters who feel the same. So if it's all right for Michelle Obama to express doubts and reservations that tug at her political conscience, I respectfully ask that some of us who are experiencing similar feelings be afforded some understanding for the process we're also going through at this time.

Well, I've had my few minutes on the soapbox. Thanks for listening.

[lojasmo]

1. No, because:

She stated "everyone in this party is going to work hard for whoever the nominee is."

[Marrah_G]

2. Nicely put. K and R

Prepare to be flamed though. There is no equality in GDP. All things Obama are good and pure and all things Clinton are evil, Evil, EVIL !!

Yes, many bullies have shown their true colors in this election cycle. Just put them on ignore and enjoy some civil debate with the ones who haven't gone over the edge yet.

[hokies4ever]

15. You're already pulling out the victim card?

[Straight Shooter]

55. Good grief.

:(

[lapfog_1]

3. What has Bill said about campaigning for Obama?

just wondering.

[Marrah_G]

4. Both Hillary and Bill have said they will of course, campaign for the nominee

[lapfog_1]

20. Which is different from what Barack and Michelle have said in what way?

Remember, you can't just use the one sentence out of context quote like Geraldine used on the today show, you have to go on to the next few sentences...

[lumberjack_jeff]

45. Well, clearly it means that Bill has already done his thinking.

Michelle, at the time of the interview had not. She was "undecided". Bill is on the damn bus. Michelle is thinking long and hard about it.

She has said that her affinity for the Democratic party, (in fact her pride in her country itself) is contingent on her husband's success.

[hendo]

60. She probably feels that way because

from her perspective and that of many Obama supporters, Obama pretty much has the nomination clinched. After tonight he will hold a majority of the pledged delegates and by all likely hood will end the primaries with the election. For many Obama supporters if Hillary wins the nomination at this point it would be tatamount to cheating.

For a candidate to hold a majority of the pledged delegates and still not win would speak volumes, about the party, about the Clintons, and about and SDs who flocked to Clinton to put her over the top. At this point that would likely lose the AA vote for the party. How is the party going to exlain to them that finally there was an AA candidate who had the nomination within his grasp, and then it all fell apart.

[lumberjack_jeff]

64. It's all moot. When she made the comments quoted in the OP,

and before when she made the comments about "being proud of her country for the first time" because Obama won a state primary, Obama did not have it in the bag as he does now. At that time, it was still very much up in the air.

The women vote is as much at risk in the general election as the AA vote is.

[hendo]

73. the female vote is important...

However, neither group has any right to hold the party hostage. but, Obama is winning a higher percentage of the AA vote than Hillary is winning of the female vote.

[Two Americas]

103. it is the other way around

The dominant (barely) faction in the party does not have the right to hold all of the rest of us hostage. That is what is happening.

Every citizen has the right - and the duty and obligation - to be heard and to demand that they are represented. That isn't holding anyone hostage, that is good citizenship. Demanding conformity - and that is what the calls for loyalty and unity are - is the opposite of that. It is suppressive and it is holding people hostage, merely because they are weaker or fewer in number.

[hendo]

74. edit: self-delete duplicate post

[Marrah_G]

53. I was answering a question asked.

I wasn't referring to the Obamas, but since you asked....the OP has their quotes. Obama would and his wife might.

[Orrex]

5. That's not an entirely fair framing of the quesiton

You're not talking about some random Obama supporter; you're talking about his wife! What else could she possibly say aside from a neutral "we'll all support the nominee" kind of statement? Anything else--anything more directly supportive of Clinton--would immediately be grabbed by the media and turned into "Even Obama's Wife Unsure About His Viability." Ms. Obama gave an excellent, polite, and intelligent answer to a seriously loaded question.

Has Bill Clinton been asked the equivalent question? Or has he been too busy playing to the party's lowest common denominator? I would be greatly interested to hear a sincere and unambiguous statement from the Clintons that they plan to support Obama wholeheartedly. Especially since Mrs. Clinton has already declared him less fit for the office than McCain.

IMO Ms. Obama could justifiably have said "Let's face facts. Clinton has lost the primary in every measurable way except her own imagination. Let's stop pretending that this is a close contest and get with the program already." IMO.

The fact that she did not answer this way demonstrates that she knows what she's doing and that she is an intelligent and thoughtful woman ready to handle loaded questions from the press.

[kid a]

6. YEs - If Hillary were in the same mathematical lock as Obama and Michelle was still sayng that?

We have a nominee. Support or find a new party.

[mopinko]

7. it's his wife, ferchrissakes

get over it.

[Frustratedlady]

8. That's a February article. This is May, the last time I looked.

Move on.

[goclark]

16. Feb.? Old old stuff , why are we discussion old news?

:scrug:

[shellgame26]

19. Because that's all they got.

The unsinkable Titanic has long since sunk.

[goclark]

23. Thanks shellgame for the reminder ~ Sink It

[theHandpuppet]

30. Gee, thanks a lot

Y'know, I was really trying here but I can see I shouldn't have bothered. <sigh>

[theHandpuppet]

21. I'm discussing MY feelings here, not "news"

If only to show that at points in time we can ALL have doubts and share disappointments and concerns. I was trying to draw a comparison here by approaching the subject from the opposite perspective and asking if you would react the same way.

THIS IS NOT AN ATTACK ON MR. OBAMA OR MICHELLE. I actually identify with what she said!

Good grief, it's simply impossible to have a reasoned discussion here anymore.

[theHandpuppet]

17. The same principles apply here whether 3 months ago or 3 years

I'm sorry if y'all can't see that but I can tell from some of the responses already that I probably wasted my time posting what I believed to be a sincere and reasoned thread. Intentionally or not, they have addressed some of my misgivings and not in a particularly positive way.

[mac2]

9. Her tone? One thinks about a candidate's "tone" Michelle?

How can it be a different direction when they are all Senators who had a chance to change things and did not? That's a "bitter tone" on my part.

[ellacott]

10. I don't see the problem in what she said

She said she had to think about actively campaigning and working for the Clinton campaign. She didn't say she wouldn't vote for her or that she was going to actively work or campaign against Hillary. On the other hand, many Hillary supporters have said they would actively work and campaign against Obama and some are saying they are voting for McCain. That's a huge difference.

After getting through the primary experience I would also have second thoughts about getting back out there.

[MadBadger]

11. The key word is working, not support

I dont care if HRC supporters dont work to support Obama, all I ask is that you support (vote) for him.

[jsmirman]

13. Ex-actly! I'm on record as saying I would vote for Hillary, I just wouldn't lift a finger

to help her. I couldn't meet the people on behalf of a person I don't trust and don't respect. But she'd be better for the country than McCain, so I would vote for her.

[pnorman]

38. Here's what a Hillary supporter posted here a short time back:

"If it happens, count me out

I'll support Democrats farther down the ticket, but Obama doesn't need my money, support or vote. He and his supporters have made that abundantly clear.

Good luck!"


I called her on: " but Obama doesn't need my money, support or vote", but no response to date. I suspect that a few other Hillary supporters (but not many) are of the same mind.

pnorman

[theHandpuppet]

52. I've heard some Obama supporters say virtually the same thing

So at least we can all agree that responses can run the gamut on both sides. The point is, can we bridge those divides?

[pnorman]

59. Perhaps, but the example I had cited was the only one I can recall. Please refresh my memory.

n/t

pnorman
PS:

[theHandpuppet]

68. Good Lord, do you really want me to review thousands of posts?

Please don't try to deny that there have been Obama supporters here who have stated they would NOT vote for Hillary if she were the nominee. There are many Obama supporters right here, in their honesty, who would admit to reading such posts numerous times. In fact, several Obama supports have gone so far as to say they would not support her bid for re-election to the Senate!

[pnorman]

75. "...not support her bid for re-election to the Senate!"

That's NOT the same as saying: "I'll support Democrats farther down the ticket, but Obama doesn't need my money, support or vote"!!!

Was THAT your "example"?

pnorman

[theHandpuppet]

80. No, it was not

And I believe I made that abundantly clear.

[izzybeans]

12. Most of them usually leave out the middle part about getting behind whoever the nominee is.

Not all, but most of them here. I suspect many of those aren't really genuine Hillary supporters if you know what I mean.

[greguganus]

14. This crap is so old it doesn't even stink anymore. n/t

[theHandpuppet]

18. I'm sorry you think my post was a waste of your time.

And apparently posting about my feelings on this subject was a waste of mine.

[AllentownJake]

22. Can you do your doubt expressing

in the Hillary forums on this site? Seriously. Coming in hear and expressing doubts can be misinterpreted as voting blackmail by some of us and that is why the flame wars start. I'm not saying either side is right but coming into GD P and saying I may not vote for the democratic nominee is asking for trouble.

[theHandpuppet]

29. Is that what I said?

I most assuredly did not.

I said -- paraphrasing here, but pretty close -- I didn't want to vote for a Dem candidate just because I fear the Republican more. IOW, I want to truly believe in the candidate for whom I'll be asked to vote and campaign. I have many doubts and concerns right now, as well as disappoinments to deal with and personally, the last thing I need is people constantly pounding on me to get with the program or get out of the party, which continues even in this thread. It's disappointing. I want to see the process played out and this will give me a good idea how/when/if the divisions in this party can be bridged. From what I've seen so far, I've not been given much reason to be optimistic.

[AllentownJake]

31. Your posting in an area that has 80% Obama supporters

Who have been battling for 6 months. Some of us are gloating now. Some of us are tired of this I won't vote for your candidate stuff. We don't interpret it as legit concerns sometimes. We interpret it as threats and sour grapes. rightly or wrongly.

If you were in the position we were in and people were threatning to leave the party because of Hillary you'd be equally as frustrated and upset.

I'm not going to tell you what to do

If I were you I'd investigate Obama on your own by researching his positions and personal story. The good the bad and the ugly and than make a decision on whether you can support him.

[theHandpuppet]

36. I'm sorry you're tired from battling for 6 months

I've been fighting the battles for Dems for 40 years, from the time I was 15 and got booted out of school for publishing a pamphlet against the Vietnam War, to getting run off the road at night during registration drives, to risking my own job to picket with union workers, to facing shotguns in the mountains and baking in the Texas sun at Camp Casey. I grew up during a time when young women had no access to birth control, much less to abortions, and being openly gay meant risking your very life.

How do you think the gloating by some of you feels to someone like myself? Do you win if you shout at me enough times to, "Get with the progam or get out of the party!"? Am I just another ignorant, uneducated, "culturally inferior" old racist because I'm an Appalachian who voted for Hillary? Wow, comments like that really made me wonder if the sign on the door truly read DEMOCRATIC Underground. Last I checked, this is also MY party. And you know what, I'm tired, too. Way tired. Right now I'm disappointed and disillusioned and frustrated not only by this primary season but by the deep divisions that have apparently opened up in a party for which I've fought all my life.

The point of the OP was to share with you what I'm feeling right now and where I'm coming from, and by drawing a comparison to Michelle's words (ones with which I can identify), show that we can all have legitimate periods of and reasons for doubt. Just yelling at people to stop thinking and reminding them they are outnumbered is not what I have ever considered to be part of the democratic process.

To be honest, I'm not sure how much longer I will continue to reply to posts within this thread. I was trying to make a reasoned argument for how I'm feeling right now but am thinking this was probably fruitless.

[SeaLyons]

24. K&R

excellent post!!

[FredScuttle]

25. We're not dealing with "if".....we're dealing with "is"

as in "Barack Obama is the nominee of the Democratic Party" or "Hillary Clinton is an utter disgrace to Democrats everywhere"

Shut up and get with the program.

[mac2]

26. As is Hillary doesn't have the right "tone"?

[FredScuttle]

34. No, as in "Hillary IS the 2nd place finisher in the Democratic primaries

who should salvage the last shred of her dignity and concede to the winner, post-haste"

[theHandpuppet]

69. Nice.

:eyes:

[FredScuttle]

70. Reality is, at times, not so pretty

n/t

[Beacool]

27. Great post!!!!

There seem to be two types of posts lately: those entreating us to vote for Obama and those threatening us to do so or else.

I've been told the gamut, from Scalia "will claw at your uterus" to "You'll be responsible for the death of thousands and have blood on your hands".

Very dramatic, very ineffective.

Want party unity?

1) Treat Hillary and her supporters with respect!!!

2) Stop the coercion and threats, they won't work and are counterproductive.

[theHandpuppet]

33. I'd settle for not being hit about the head with a hammer over and over

I'm trying here, but it's difficult.

Thanks for the support.

[Beacool]

35. No problema........

:hi:

[ecstatic]

28. I would tell any regular working person to get with the program

Some people will have no problems weathering a McCain presidency. The question is-can you?

[BlueJac]

32. That is all that is left now?

The Clinton Clan should wake up and smell the roses today. It will finally be over except for the kicking and screaming. Don't forget to slam the door too.

[theHandpuppet]

37. And this is exactly the kind of response I'm addressing

Thanks for letting Dems such as myself know exactly where we stand in the "new" Democratic Party of hope and unity.

[ellacott]

41. I don't understand how what Michelle says is consistent with what some Hillary supporters say

[theHandpuppet]

51. Hopeless. Just hopeless.

I give up.

:shrug:

[ellacott]

72. I just asked a question

I actually posted it earlier and you didn't respond. Maybe you didn't see it.

Michelle didn't say she wouldn't vote for Clinton. She said she didn't know about campaingning for her. On the other some Hillary supporters have stated that they would actively campaign against Obama and would vote for McCain. Those people are the ones who usually encounter the scorn.

To me, that seems like a difference.

I'm asking a sincere question. How are they related?

[marions ghost]

39. I'm sure you're not alone in your feelings

and that a lot of Hillary supporters are feeling the same thing right now.

This sentence you wrote well expresses a truth that nobody should underestimate:

"Being gay and a woman who now sees the opportunity slipping away for a woman, and one long supportive of gays and women's rights, to be chief executive of the United States, I am feeling pretty disillusioned."
---------

If you can't support Obama, then how about working for other women candidates who will have a window for advancement in a Dem presidential administration? Could you put your anger and sorrow over what happened for Hillary into other women? That would really be the most forward-looking thing to do, instead of sinking into depression and defensiveness. I would be seriously depressed if I believed it's all over for women now because of Hillary's loss...quite the contrary, it seems to be a window of opportunity which feels much better than in the recent past.

Take some time to recover and then look at why a lot of people have not supported Hillary. She does have some big negatives and flaws that have been exposed during the campaign. These are undeniable and I'm sure I don't have to list them. After awhile maybe you can see it more objectively and realize that although this particular woman may have failed in her quest, the goals remain the same. Don't give up now.

[theHandpuppet]

48. I have always and am currently supporting women candidates

I have been for decades, from women running for city councils to Congress. And no, you don't have to list Hillary's flaws for me anymore than I would have to list Obama's flaws for you, because I know my candidate is human. It's simply that in my objective opinion she is the better and more qualified candidate. But I do believe that the constant stream of vitriol on GDP has soured me on this election and truly made me question whether or not there is still a seat at the table for Democrats like myself.

Sincere thanks for your post.

[marions ghost]

65. One thing to consider

about GDP and grassroots politics as it is right now...

I don't care what category of rational person you are--progressive, Dem, liberal, indy, sane Republican or ex-Republican--we are ALL coming off of the nightmare ride of Bu$h and the Neocons. We have ALL been abused & disrespected & lied to & exploited for their gain.

Now there's a fragile ray of hope on the horizon. Emotions are running high...this has been hard won. We have had to witness the country being driven into the ditch. We are now in dire straits everywhere you look. Everyone is nervous and concerned about the political future. So try not to take the vitriol around here quite so personally. A lot of it (other than shit-stirrers) comes out of fear and a state of being just as downtrodden as women as a group- have been. I wouldn't expect people around here to be in control of their emotions. Hopefully things will settle down and we can pull together soon. It would help greatly for Hillary herself to come out for Obama instead of playing this petty game into oblivion--claiming FL and MI as victories is really crass. This isn't helping her supporters or the healing that needs to occur.

That being said your comments are important because they do express what a large group is feeling over Hillary's loss right now. It's genuine and needs to be said.

:grouphug:

[calimary]

40. I understand your conflict.

It's a rough one to ask of anyone - to set aside, or at least make adjustments on, a dream.

The idea that we'll have to wait to watch a woman take the Presidential Oath of Office for the first time - gnaws on me, too. Basically, it's because I happen to think if we're going to have a First Woman President, Hillary Clinton might be the ideal person to fill that requisition. I'm an Obama supporter, but I still think Hillary has what it takes, also. EITHER WAY we'd be well served.

Either way, we'll make history, though, and the alternative, of Barack Obama, is a superb and historic choice, so it's not a terribly bitter pill for me to swallow.

[marions ghost]

50. right

the last time I worked hard for a political candidate who lost at the state level, there was NO backup, NO alternative other than the Rethuglican who won. Now that was a crushing defeat. I do know the feeling. But as you point out, at least Hillary supporters have a reasonable alternative over what we have had for the last 8 years!

The situation is not as dire as all that. I'm confident we will see women in the highest offices from now on. There are so many on the rise. I'm not even worried about it at all.

Hillary lost on her own. She did not lose because she's a woman, at least. (Talk about bad advisors, Bill included) Despite all of Hillary's issues, there are gains for future women candidates in her run.

But depressed Hillary supporters DO have a reasonable candidate to vote for, for president --meanwhile they should keep working for women candidates at every level. There is opportunity. This is FAR from over. ;)

[Swamp Rat]

100. kick for both your and calimary's posts.

:kick:

I believe we will have a female president someday. :)

[marions ghost]

105. thanx Swamp Rat

yes we can and we will. And thanks for saying that. So many really want to see a female president now. It's inevitable.

Meanwhile even strong Hillary supporters need to come around and give this Barack Obama individual whatever help they can muster. It's not going to be a joy ride for him at any point. So many demands and expectations. He will pave the way for more opportunity for us all I believe. This is not any kind of male vs female struggle at this point, no matter how much the media wants to make it into American Gladiators Battle of the sexes. Obama is no sexist, it's a joke to paint him as one. He's actually a sweetie seems to me. His momma raised him right (grans too). Michelle doesn't exactly appear to be the type to put up with a sexist either. Women will have an equal place at his table, I am sure of that. :)

:thumbsup:

[reflection]

42. Yeah, I would.

If these campaigns start acting like their supporters, we are in for a giant dissapointment come November. The answer from either Michelle or Hillary should be nothing less than "Absolutely. I am a Democrat. I will vote for the Democratic candidate," short of there being some overwhelming reason which would completely trump party loyalty.

[mmonk]

43. There's a lot more at stake than Roe v. Wade.

You need to read up on their judges and their strategies. They hold settled law in contempt and freedom depends on judges that will not abuse the legal system to restrain rights or undo them for power or partisan purposes.

Michelle was well within her rights IMO to complain about the tone and approach.

[theHandpuppet]

58. Believe it or not, I know that

I am actually versed on what's at stake. I only used Roe v. Wade as a singular example because it's the one constantly being screamed in our faces here.

[NJObamaWoman]

44. The REAL Question is Would HRC & Her Supporters tell ...

this black woman (ME) to ship up and get with the program is the party nominated HRC. Would you really tell this black woman who has heard for the past few months repeatedly that White women are so important to the party, white person this and white person that. Would you really tell me that to shut up and get with the program when for months ya'll have been telling me that I as a BLACK WOMAN mean SHIT to this party?

[lumberjack_jeff]

47. So you're an independent Obama supporter. Got it.

I hope you decide to remain a democrat.

[NJObamaWoman]

54. No I'm not an independent Obama supporter. I'm an INDEPENDENT WOMAN!

There is a big difference. I may leave this party and become an independent since it seems that this party takes my black vote for granted and only cares for the white working class and white women.

[lumberjack_jeff]

61. This is new. Most people threaten to leave the party when their candidate is losing.

Your post is reflective of the superficial party support that I've come to expect from Obama supporters.

It is my hope that if we can get a democrat elected, you'll decide to stick around.

[NJObamaWoman]

67. It takes more than electing a democrat to keep me around.

I need that Democrat to understand where I am coming from and make decisions that help to make my life easier and my future kids lives easier. I'm not a blind democrat who will support this party no matter what. I'm a realist. Supporting anything just because other people do will lead me to hell. Politicians are all crooks I have no blind loyalty to the Dem party because the Dem party could change its foundation at any minute.

[lumberjack_jeff]

71. You have the choice of door #1 or door #2.

I've chosen door #1 and will continue to browbeat the person behind it (whomever that might be) to support the interests of working class people.

It's looking like that person will be Obama, which makes my task of browbeating a little harder, but still infinitely better than door #2.

"Blind loyalty"? Yeah. Pretty much.

[theHandpuppet]

56. Anyone who has made you feel that way deserves to be slapped

And if Hillary or anyone associated with her campaign, or her supporters, have made you feel that way then shame on her and them. I can only assure you that I would never tell another Dem to, "shut up and get with the program". It takes more than one oar to row a boat.

As a gay person, an older woman and an Appalachian I feel I've pretty much been made to feel like the party trash, myself. And if the fighting continues without some serious efforts to bridge the divides, I just don't know where this boat is headed. I'm trying.

[NJObamaWoman]

63. Thanks and honestly you shouldn't feel like trash. Honestly

when thinking about the Appalachian and the people their voting I've labeled them all racists in my mind. I know there is hardly any black people their. My mom has always told me that those are with "the white trash who hate black people and are on food stamps live". So when I heard that these areas were turning out for HRC I immediately went back to these beliefs because no one (the media in general) has provided me with solid reasons as to why these people are voting this way. At the end of the day these people might feel that Obama is not the right person, that he's young or isn't offering them something solid. There might be a whole host of reasons why Tenn. & Ken. people aren't voting for Obama. Those reasons might be solid too. But your right their is a divide in this party and its getting worst. Everyone's negative notions about different groups who live in different areas in America is coming out and its getting really ugly. Its just sad that the Dem party doesn't see how bad its getting. As a black woman I almost wish that they give HRC the nomination only for riots and protesting to result from the black community because I'm unhappy with the way this country and even this party has treated me and my race. I shouldn't feel this way or even want this but I feel that their are tons of issues that aren't being resolved and no matter who gets the nominee some group will feel insulted. This campaign season IMHO has insulted so many group from the notion that Appalachian people are racists, Latinos hate blacks, blacks just want to get back at white people, uneducated whites are racists, higher educated people are elitist etc. I'm just sick of it already really.

[marions ghost]

76. there are groups who profit

from all of us being divided. They're the real enemies of social progress. (And some highly-placed Dems are part of "they)."

Yep, you're right--just about every group that threatens the status quo (or might have any shred of political power) has been rounded up for stereotypical labels and pitted against each other this time.

That's how scared they are of us all working together for our common interests. Competition, disharmony,
warring, objectifying others, factionalism = this is how they keep control.

The truth is, a lot of us are not getting our needs met. A large part of this country has been abused.
We need to stick together and recognize the parties who are REALLY not on our side.

[theHandpuppet]

79. There are times when I've wondered if GDP isn't poisoning us

And whether the small sampling of voters to be found here are truly reflective of the deep divisions I see in the party right now. Or have these divisions truly been there all along, lurking just beneath the surface? Is this a mighty struggle which was inevitable for a party that has continued to evolve over time, even as it serves as the voice for such a diverse group of Americans, each who have had to deal with a lifetime of struggles often unique to themselves and often misunderstood or undervalued by those who have always taken power for granted?

I'm frightened for this country, I truly am. Perhaps some of incredible passions boiling over right now only serve to illustrate that for those who have never been offered even a glimpse at the prize, we now find ourselves in the grossly ironic position of being pitted against one another whilst those who have never known what that feels like stand on the sidelines to watch us rip each other to pieces. This could prove to be an American tragedy rather than a triumph.

Can we find that singular voice again? I don't know. I hope so. A lot will depend on the wisdom (or lack thereof) from the leaders of this party, from this time forward. But if we have to start somewhere, let's start with ourselves. Me to you, you to me.

I thank you for your post and for your honesty.

[Orangepeel]

46. Ridiculous. Michelle Obama corrected herself in her NEXT FUCKING SENTENCE

She told HERSELF to "shut up and get with the program" before the damn interview ended.

Good god. She didn't to on the Today show and make idiotic remarks.

[theHandpuppet]

49. This is NOT an attack on Michelle!

For God's sake, I was actually identifying with what she said.

Are some of you even reading my post beyond the first few sentences?

[hayu_lol]

57. Well said and defended Handpuppet! The naysayers here, the Hillary Haters at all costs...

simply refuse to understand what is being said.

Let me tell all of you a little story. Has to do with our current crop of candidates.

When our crowd of mostly misfits threw their hats in the ring, my first thought was to push the 'none of the above' button. I wanted Wes Clark--or someone like him to be the nominee.

Got excited however with the first info on Obama. Harvard Law! Wow! But he has gone far downhill since then. I simply made out pro/con sheets on all the candidates. Some were simply eliminated, since I have been an activist for over 8 years. Their backgrounds and personal behavior was such that they were not, to me at least, serious candidates.

That left Hillary at the top of the final list. I have seen nothing from Obama to change my mind and the behavior of the Obama supporters over the past few weeks completely eliminated Obama from the arena.

I note that Hillary has been able to deflect most of the slurs and slime--this constant barrage from the other side of this primary. Obama has not shown what is needed to survive, not only as a candidate but as a sitting president.

To be frank with all of you, I could be tempted if Michelle were the candidate--she appears smarter than her husband and frankly is a much more direct speaker. We simply have the wrong Obama running.

So, in view of all that has transpired, my vote will be for Hillary. If the EVENTUAL nominee is Obama, why then I have to tell him: "Go Fish."

At this time, we have two candidates. Both are reasonably qualified for the sought position. Hillary, however, is head and shoulders above both Obama and his supporters.

Hillary is going to the White House.

[Adelante]

77. So who will you vote for then?

If the EVENTUAL nominee is Obama, why then I have to tell him: "Go Fish."

I disagree with everything you said (except for wanting Wes Clark). However, if Hillary turned out to be the nominee, I would still vote the Democratic ticket in November, rather than say go fish. The alternative would be John McCain and another Republican presidency.

Really, it's nervy calling people "Hillary Haters at all costs" when you yourself refuse to vote for Obama, if he is the nominee, no matter the cost to the nation.

[Orangepeel]

66. I read it as a defense of Ferraro, who I think is acting like an idiot.

excuse me for misunderstanding.

[theHandpuppet]

85. Huh?

Are you referring to my OP? If so, you really have misunderstood my post. I penned this thread to share with you MY feelings right now. Ms. Ferraro's opinions and feelings weren't even on my radar.

[Texas Hill Country]

62. k & r

[JAbuchan08]

78. I wouldn't vote for Zell Miller, Joseph Leiberman or Hillary Clinton as the nominee

I probably wouldn't vote for Evan Bayh or Mark Warner for that matter.

I'm tired of voting for the lesser Dem because they are more "electable" as defined by the Republican party and the DLC.

Hillary supporters are perfectly within their rights not to vote for the Democrat in the general, but I don't respect that decision any more than I respect the decision to vote for Hillary in the first place.

I vote my principles, and while Obama is not perfect he is a sight better than Clinton.

The reason Hillary supporters keep threatening not to vote for Obama is because they want us to kiss their asses. They want a tacit admission from Obama supporters (and those of us who support Obama as an alternative to the war queen) that both Dems are "equally good" because they are not John McCain.

Fortunately I am probably not going to have to confront the possibility of a Hillary nomination, but if I were I believe my choice not to vote for her rests on the principles of my beliefs and not on spitefulness that comes from being a sore loser. When my candidate(s) dropped out I didn't threaten to withhold my support from all other Democrats out of spitefulness, but I feel certain that if ANY other Democrat had challenged Hillary as her final opponent we would be seeing the same behavior from Hillary and her supporters.

THe hatred coming from the Hillary camp is not about Obama. It's about Hillary, about how she has beene an unacceptable candidate to a lot of Dems from the very beginning and her supporters cannot stand that. The would have us believe that their hatred of Obama is just as reasoned and policy based as our dislike of her, but it's can't be because where their policy positions deviate she too consistently errs on the side of conservatism.

All they have left is their own spitefulness and charges of arrogance and "sexism" both of which only exist in opposition to the dislike so many of us feel for Hillary. It is similar to when Republicans accuse liberals of "hatefulness" for pointing out their hatefulness, or "bigotry" for pointing out their bigotry. So too Obama is "arrogant" for pointing out Hillary's arrogance or hateful and sexist for pointing out her condescension and mean-spiritedness.

Hillary supporters hate Obama, because they can't convince us to love or respect her.

[dailykoff]

81. Lay off of his wife.

ALERTED.

[theHandpuppet]

82. Oh for Chrissakes

Did you even bother to read my post? Do you have any idea what point I was trying to make, or why?

:eyes:

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[theHandpuppet]

84. No I am NOT bashing Michelle Obama

I was actually IDENTIFYING with something she said when she expressed reservations and doubts and comparing her feelings to my own! Good Lord, how clueless can you be!

[redqueen]

86. "You know, everyone in this party is going to work hard for whoever the nominee is."

"I think that we're all working for the same thing. and, you know, I think our goal is to make sure that the person in the White House is going to take this country in a different direction."

[theHandpuppet]

87. Yes, and I purposely included that portion in my OP

I didn't want to edit her own words, which would have been deliberately misleading. I only wanted to illustrate that when people feel passionately about a campaign or a candidate, be they just your avarage voter like me or Michelle Obama, there can be periods when a person can experience legitimate reservations and doubts about supporting someone who is not your chosen candidate. It's a difficult time, emotionally, mentally and spiritually that's not made any easier by those who just keep yelling to shut up and get with the program.

[OhioBlue]

88. uhhh... She is MARRIED to Barack! a HUGE difference

If someone is running a negative campaign against your husband, you are sure to have some bad feelings. It is her husband. Michelle is not an elected official within the Democratic Party. She does not have to "fall in line" and campaign for the nominee. She just needs to do no harm.

I know some Hillary supporters feel that they have some personal connection to Hillary and feel defensive, but it is just not comparable to being a spouse or family member.

I understand what Michelle was saying without saying it.

[mkultra]

89. first of all

im glad to hear a consultive tone from you meat. Ive seen some pretty attack based posts with your name and i think that progress is being made on both sides.

I think its a bit of a stretch to assume that as the spouse goes so does the candidate. Bill clinton is not obligated, in my mind to support and campaign for Obama just as Michelle is not obligated. I do think that Obama and Clinton are though.


I personally feel that any call for Clinton to support Obama once its over is a request to begin unification. There have been many threats from Clinton supporters to either not support or vote to even vote against. This kind of talk is either just hot air or arrogance. I would never let the threat of a tantrum force me to vote against my conscience. Its clear that there are enough dems on the ground to kick the republicans out. If the Hillarys really stay home, then the blame lies with them.

[theHandpuppet]

91. I'm a bit confused

"I'm glad to hear a consultive tone from you meat."

Um.. what did that mean?

"I've seen some pretty attack based posts with your name"

I would be interested in reviewing anything you consider attack-based posts or threads of mine. Seriously. I have hotly defended certain issues, yes.

True unification must come via efforts from both sides. Dismissing the very real frustrations and disappontments of Hillary supporters as just "hot air or arrogance" is not helpful.

[mkultra]

94. sorry, explanation

I was thinking of meatpuppet.

in any case I completely agree that unification takes both sides. I wouldn't dismiss the frustrations and disappointments of HRC supporters as hot air but rather the assertion that we should vote for her or they will sit out, is at its very best, hot air. Im sorry to be so blunt, but i consider that particular argument to be hypocritical.

if your saying that people have a right to express concerns, i agree. I feel that many of the "expressions of concern" are much less than that but instead are really veiled threats and insults.

[theHandpuppet]

95. Please don't call me that. I really don't appreciate it.

You start off by personally insulting me and then proceed with a debate as if it's no big deal?

My nickname is a homage to Shari Lewis, not some reference to being someone else's tool or fool.

Thanks a lot and have a nice day.

[Name removed]

98. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[theHandpuppet]

99. Enough of you.

Bye-bye.

[mkultra]

102. same to you meatpuppet

[JNelson6563]

90. Supporter...spouse

Let us all be honest, Hillary has launched some nasty attacks on Obama. I think her proclaiming that "if you can't stand the heat..." pretty much makes it clear she has even admitted it.

So, you liken what some supporters feel to what the spouse of the target of these attacks say?

Please tell me that supporters would be more protective and supportive of a spouse than a candidate, oh please tell me this.

And as to the SCOTUS goes, I remember long ago, when Hillary was the presumptive nominee Hillary supporters were all over the place declaring we all had to vote for her if for no other reason than the court. I remember feeling pretty irritated about that. Yes, yes, gotta vote the Dem no matter how you fell about 'em cause of the court. Uh-huh. I'd roll my eyes and know that in the end I probably would and felt advance feelings of being taken for granted on this count.

So funny that now it's looking like Hillary isn't going to be the nominee, well, suddenly it's different. Maybe the SCOTUS ain't reason enough to vote for the Dem.

Yeah, I see how it is.

Julie

[theHandpuppet]

93. Sigh

I don't know how many times and in how many different ways I can explain what I was trying to say, so I'll just lift a response I made to a smiliar question:

"I only wanted to illustrate that when people feel passionately about a campaign or a candidate, be they just your average voter like me or Michelle Obama, there can be periods when a person can experience legitimate reservations and doubts about supporting someone who is not your chosen candidate. It's a difficult time, emotionally, mentally and spiritually that's not made any easier by those who just keep yelling to shut up and get with the program." Really, that's all I was trying to say, even if I didn't express myself very well.

You also wrote:
"And as to the SCOTUS goes, I remember long ago, when Hillary was the presumptive nominee Hillary supporters were all over the place declaring we all had to vote for her if for no other reason than the court. I remember feeling pretty irritated about that. Yes, yes, gotta vote the Dem no matter how you fell about 'em cause of the court. Uh-huh. I'd roll my eyes and know that in the end I probably would and felt advance feelings of being taken for granted on this count."

Yes, and that's pretty much what I'm feeling right now. It's incredibly frustrating for me. I'm sick and tired of feeling as if my vote is being taken for granted. And if you felt pressured long ago by Hillary supporters when she was the presumptive nominee, then you aren't referring to me. I was an Edwards supporter, swimming upstream. During the last Presidential primary here in WV, I voted for Kucinich. I'm not likely to be a person who goes along to get along or to pick the most popular kid in school for class president, believe me. :evilgrin:

Be well...

:-)

[JNelson6563]

96. Hey, I'm there with ya.

I was an Edwards supporter too so I never got very emotionally vested in the Clinton/Obama thing like many here.

I was merely pointing out how the tables have turned. Long ago (and far away??) it was Clinton supporters pointing at the Court and Roe v. Wade and such. Now it's the Obama folks. Either way you look at it it's true, though it sucks.

And yes, I know full well how emotional things can get in a primary. I was a Dean supporter, nearly died of a broken heart, never got excited about Kerry. While sure at first I considered walking away, screw the SCOTUS and all that but NEVER said such a thing aloud. But still I think a SPOUSE should be cut a little slack for taking the campaign shit flinging a little harder than the rest of us.

In my primary I voted "uncommitted". At this point I am thinking of chairing the Committee to re-elect Uncommitted. It was a hell of a campaign here in MI and, for an unknown against a titan, Uncommitted had uber impressive returns. :-)

Cheers,
Julie

[theHandpuppet]

97. Let me make me something clear...

...because I believe a lot folks here are proceeding from a false assumption, and that I was in any way criticizing Michelle Obama for what she said. In fact, quite the opposite is true!

Now she may feel passionately about this election because she's married to Barack and undoubtedly shares his political agenda (not to mention she's politically astute and passionate in her own right), but I can feel just as passionately about this election for different reasons entirely. Because her moments of doubt may be excused it doesn't necessarily follow that mine can simply dismissed because I'm just a citizen. We are all equals here. No one, and I mean no one who cares deeply about this country and its future, should ever be told to sit down, shut up and get with the program. That's bullying and for many women, that kind of language resonates in a way that's incredibly demeaning and dismissive.

[JNelson6563]

104. You misunderstood my post.

Either I suck at communication or you are way over sensitive. I looked and cannot find anywhere that I even remotely implied you should shut up or sit down or anything like that! I stated I chose to be silent when I felt such in 04 but said nothing about how you or anyone else should. I had to go that route as I hold an elected leadership position in the Dem party (more than one actually).

BTW I am a woman, pleases do not go off on me about what is demeaning to women, ok? I have just ended a 20 year abusive marriage so I think maybe I can tell you a thing or two about what's what in demeaning.

Geez, when I wrote myh last post to you I was writing in terms of "it's all good, we're on the same side" but after reading your way off the mark post full of assumptions I am now more of the mindset to tell you to go stick it up your self-righteous ass.

Fuck off.

Julie

[apocalypsehow]

92. Oh, give me a fucking break. If the roles were reversed the arrogant, hysterical HRC boosters would

be shrieking from the rooftops "get out, Obama! You're hurting the party!" as we speak. The "process" has "played out" and the Queen has lost - the coronation is on permanent hold. Get over it.

[Occam Bandage]

101. Yes. If the numbers were reversed, I would hope Obama folks would get with the program already.

Oh, and if McCain gets in, Roe is gone. Sorry if you don't like thinking about that.

P.S. - There are no "deeply held differences over policy" between Obama and Clinton.

[crimsonblue]

106. it's ironic you support Hillary

when her husband signed DOMA and don't ask don't tell.. that's interesting.