Seen the light
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Tue May-20-08 08:41 PM
Original message |
Superdelegates: BAD!, Pledged delegates: GOOD!, Popular vote: BAD! |
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As Obama has clinched the pledged delegate win tonight, but Clinton added 250,000 net popular votes tonight, I'm curious as to why the pledged delegate count is much more democratic than popular vote. Because that's what the DNC rules say? I agree, but the DNC also allows for superdelegates which plenty of people despise.
EXPLAIN! :D
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Kittycat
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Tue May-20-08 08:42 PM
Response to Original message |
1. Clinton's Pop Vote excludes valid caucus states, and includes rule breaking MI/FL |
Seen the light
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Tue May-20-08 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #1 |
4. Let's assume Puerto Rico puts her over the top and it probably will |
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She'll have more votes than him at the end of the process if Puerto Rico goes overwhelmingly for Clinton.
Your response then?
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LakeSamish706
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Tue May-20-08 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #4 |
13. Popular vote does not count! It's delegates that count! n/t |
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Edited on Tue May-20-08 08:46 PM by LakeSamish706
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tritsofme
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Tue May-20-08 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #13 |
27. Its 2025 delegates that count, not some arbitrary figure |
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such as majority of elected and caucus delegates.
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Oregone
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Tue May-20-08 08:46 PM
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16. Why should we weight PR as a region more than another state of equal population... |
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who could not express their will due to uncontrollable factors?
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Seen the light
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Tue May-20-08 08:49 PM
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Then why count their delegates at all then? |
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I had an epiphany about this earlier today when I actually made a thread blasting people that count Puerto Rico's vote towards the popular vote. Why give them a voice with the delegates, but not with the popular vote?
Probably stupidity right now because of medicine I'm on, I don't know. Help me out.
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Oregone
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Tue May-20-08 08:52 PM
Response to Original message |
37. Its the rules to count their delegates |
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But we both know they have massive turnout. Why use that turnout to weight their region more than one of equal population that *might* have had similar turnout, if it wasn't for a massive snow storm? Don't delegates solve that problem? Isn't that a good reason to use them?
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tritsofme
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Tue May-20-08 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #16 |
31. According to Obama supporters, cacuses are sufficient to represent the will of the people |
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and voters in those states are not disenfranchised from participating in any way.
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Renew Deal
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Tue May-20-08 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #4 |
25. You'll need to talk to Al Gore |
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He's got a response for you.
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LakeSamish706
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Tue May-20-08 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #1 |
8. That sums it up very well.... And if I am correct that is assuming 0 for Obama... |
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in both of those States.... Now thats making up the rules to suit ones needs.
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BeatleBoot
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Tue May-20-08 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #1 |
12. So, when I voted in Michigan back on Jan 15th it was against the rules? |
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Edited on Tue May-20-08 08:46 PM by BeatleBoot
I voted.
My vote should count.
Or was that just applicable to Al Gore in Florida and John Kerry in Ohio?
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Kittycat
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Tue May-20-08 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #12 |
50. Your state broke the rules, and many in michigan stayed home. |
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My friends would be some of those very people. They were very pissed, and rightfully so, that your Dem Party fucked it up for you. The candidates (nearly all) removed their names to show support to the DNC on their ruling. Hillary herself stated that the vote - YOUR vote - would not count for anything.
If YOU have an issue with it - you need to take it up with your state dem leaders.
They have submitted a recommendation of a 69-59 split. Still not fair in the state of things, but it's an opportunity for your state to have some delegates, and I would imagine something along those lines will get approved. It's also far better than their votes only counting 50%, IMO.
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grantcart
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Tue May-20-08 08:43 PM
Response to Original message |
2. Obama also leads in super delegates |
dcindian
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Tue May-20-08 08:44 PM
Response to Original message |
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We voted she lost. End of story
Not hard to comprehend.
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Terri S
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Tue May-20-08 08:44 PM
Response to Original message |
5. The popular vote is a farce |
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There is no way to count it. It is an imaginary metric. Dear lord, even the pundits on CNN are laughing about it.
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BeatleBoot
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Tue May-20-08 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #5 |
22. Except in 2000, right? |
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When Gore beat Bush by the popular vote.
That was different, somehow.
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rockymountaindem
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Tue May-20-08 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #22 |
42. That election didn't involve caucuses |
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and two states who have been barred from the convention.
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Connie_Corleone
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Tue May-20-08 08:45 PM
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6. Caucus states don't have their popular votes counted. That's why. |
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Edited on Tue May-20-08 08:46 PM by Connie_Corleone
This is what Hillary and her supporters don't tell people. They exclude all the caucus states and throw in Florida and Michigan (Obama wasn't even on the ballot in Michigan) to get her sorry ass to a popular vote majority.
That's why the winner is determined by the delegates.
As far as Puerto Rico is concerned, they don't even have a vote in the general election. And it still doesn't take into account the caucus states where the POPULAR VOTE IS NOT COUNTED!
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Seen the light
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Tue May-20-08 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #6 |
14. What if she wins even without Michigan and Florida and with the caucus states if you add PR? |
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What then?
I have a sick feeling that's where we're headed. She'll have the win in the popular vote even excluding Michigan and Florida and adding the caucus estimates if you count Puerto Rico.
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Oregone
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Tue May-20-08 08:45 PM
Response to Original message |
7. Popular vote fails to express the will of the people when it is regionally supressed... |
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Edited on Tue May-20-08 08:45 PM by Oregone
Ice storms, wind storms, robo-calls, voter roll purging, access to voting booths blocked, closed primaries, caucuses, media supression, the inability for candidates to campaign, etc, etc.
Despite the will of the people being proportionally expressed in their numeric vote, voter supression can keep this vote total low. Delegates equalize the idiosynchracies accross non-homogenous regions with differing conditions.
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thewiseguy
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Tue May-20-08 08:45 PM
Response to Original message |
9. Obama leads her in superdelegates, pledged delegates, and popular vote |
NewHampshireDem
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Tue May-20-08 08:45 PM
Response to Original message |
10. "Clinton added 250,000 net popular votes tonight" |
anigbrowl
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Tue May-20-08 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #10 |
38. I know. So pathetic - when OR results come in they'll all o to bed and pretend they dont' care |
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It's like dealing with a bunch of 12 year olds who didn't get their slumber party.
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Pisces
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Tue May-20-08 08:45 PM
Response to Original message |
11. SHe hasn't won the popular vote. She has won the delusional racist vote. |
tritsofme
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Tue May-20-08 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #11 |
35. If Clinton supporters are delusional racists, I guess you won't have much use for us in November. |
Adelante
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Tue May-20-08 08:46 PM
Response to Original message |
15. There is no calculation for a popular vote in the Democratic primaries |
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A mechanism for a popular vote count doesn't exist.
A popular vote is a false metric.
Popular vote not only bad, popular vote nonexistent.
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Blondbostonian
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Tue May-20-08 08:47 PM
Response to Original message |
17. Do you really want a debate or are you repeating talking points? |
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Edited on Tue May-20-08 08:48 PM by Blondbostonian
You will admit that Obama has run a great campaign. If this was a battle for popular votes, don't you think they would have run a different type of camapign?
They would have spent more time in places like Wisconsin and Illinois and Virgina and ran the numbers up.
You can't change the rules in mid-season.
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sandnsea
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Tue May-20-08 08:47 PM
Response to Original message |
18. Because the campaign was to elect delegates |
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We can't go back to caucus states and extrapolate out the population in order to get a popular vote. Doesn't work.
Please. For the sake of the country and world, Obama won. Let's get on with it.
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lsusteel
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Tue May-20-08 08:47 PM
Response to Original message |
19. The funny thing about this is... |
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We're not a direct Democracy, and rightfully so.
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MattBaggins
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Tue May-20-08 08:47 PM
Response to Original message |
20. I hate the SDs despite the fact |
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that they are going to give the nomination to Obama.
We will have to wait to see who will have the Popular vote but I do not believe it will be Hillary. You can't count Michigan all for her and discount the folks that voted against her.
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Swamp Rat
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Tue May-20-08 08:48 PM
Response to Original message |
21. watching the goal posts move |
C_U_L8R
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Tue May-20-08 08:48 PM
Response to Original message |
23. You might want to read the rules |
AZBlue
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Tue May-20-08 08:48 PM
Response to Original message |
24. Oh for the love of all things good - would you people read the rules? |
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It's about pledged delegates - no where does it mention popular vote. If you don't like it that much, work to change it in 2016. But for now, that's it, that's the way it is, period.
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Seen the light
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Tue May-20-08 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #24 |
39. It wouldn't bother you if the nominee of our party didn't win the popular vote? |
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Not much of a mandate then huh?
By the way, Obama supporter here that's been called a hopeless cultist Obamite before here on DU. :hi:
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AZBlue
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Tue May-20-08 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #39 |
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Sorry...my bad.
As for the popular vote, it wasn't my decision, it was the DNC's. (how'dya like that?) ;)
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sfam
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Tue May-20-08 08:49 PM
Response to Original message |
26. Welcome to the 2000 election. Gore won the popular vote... |
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Well, he also won the electoral college vote, but that's a different story.
Bottom line, the popular vote is not valid. At all. Unless you discount all caucus states in the total that is...which means that not every vote counts.
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casus belli
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Tue May-20-08 08:49 PM
Response to Original message |
28. Nobody's position has changed except hers. |
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Edited on Tue May-20-08 08:50 PM by casus belli
The primary is and always has been based on delegates and super delegates. The only reason that popular vote factors in at all is because this race will be dependent on super delegates - some of whom have expressed reservation about voting against the will of constituents in their districts. The only reason it counts in Hillary's world, is because it is the only metric that can be altered to view her favorably with creative math.
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graycem
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Tue May-20-08 08:49 PM
Response to Original message |
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you do not get to change the rules in the middle of ANY game and have it be legitimate. If POPULAR vote were going to be the metric all along, it would've been wise to tell that to all the candidates so they could've adjusted the way they campaign. Period. Anything else is completely dishonest. :)
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mopinko
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Tue May-20-08 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #29 |
34. to say nothing of the state parties, who prolly |
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would have had primaries, instead of caucuses that wouldn't count, no? are they delusional or just liars?
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graycem
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Tue May-20-08 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #34 |
47. One simple truth I've learned in life.. |
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desperation makes people do bizarro things. My brother used to try this crap when we were kids and he saw he was losing (usually the game was Monopoly and he wanted to skip the step of buying houses, and just go straight for hotels or keep "borrowing" money from the bank every time he was broke and had essentially lost the game, WITHOUT mortgaging his properties) :P .
It's utterly dishonest and equally absurd. If the shoe were on the other foot, we wouldn't even be having this conversation, she and her supporters/surrogates would've already ridiculed him out of the game. What's sad is she wants to be treated "equal", just like the boys, and yet they're trying to change the rules to suit the girl, because winning by the rules is just too hard! :( Yeah, that's definitely a tenet of feminism.
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mopinko
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Tue May-20-08 08:50 PM
Response to Original message |
30. because there is no such number as the popular vote. |
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and this is the kind of shit that is making people so sick of hillary and her supporters. after 8 years of a liar in the white house, and tortured propaganda on the tv, the last thing we want is a candidate that is a delusional liar. and i don't have a problem with supers, but if we didn't have them, obama would still be clinching it tonight.
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bhikkhu
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Tue May-20-08 08:50 PM
Response to Original message |
32. If the rules were different the campaigns would have been different |
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Then the results would have been different.
How many times has this come up now?
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wileedog
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Tue May-20-08 08:50 PM
Response to Original message |
33. Football is scored by TDs, not yards gained. |
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Those are the rules. If they were changed the teams would play differently. Changing them in the last 2 minutes of the 4th quarter is not only unfair, it is retarded.
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scheming daemons
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Tue May-20-08 08:51 PM
Response to Original message |
36. Clinton added 250K in KY... Obama will add 250K or more in OR.... that's a wash... |
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...and who said Superdelegates were bad????
They're going to Obama in droves.... I LOVE the Superdelegates.... 120 to 14 since Feb 5th!
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Youphemism
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Tue May-20-08 08:52 PM
Response to Original message |
40. Perhaps a minor point here, but... |
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...Given that he's winning among superdelegates, I don't think "Superdelegates: BAD!" applies to Obama.
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Seen the light
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Tue May-20-08 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #40 |
44. It was earlier in the process when he was losing because of it |
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Most people on DU were saying that he was really ahead in delegates because superdelegates shouldn't count. Because they weren't democratic. However, they were in the rules.
I don't know, everyone has flip-flopped on everything in order to help their candidate. I'm just trying to find some consistency here.
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Youphemism
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Tue May-20-08 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #44 |
48. If it's any consolation... |
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I think the whole idea of superdelegates is stupid -- especially because they're political folks who love to accept money, favors, and promises.
But neither now nor at any time would I support changing that system *during* a campaign, no matter who is running, no matter who is winning -- no matter what.
I hope that provides some consistency.
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ecdab
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Tue May-20-08 08:54 PM
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41. Clinton won the popular vote - as long as a bunch of Obama voted are not counted. |
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That's sort of like claiming the Patriot won the Superbowl because some of the points the Giants had on the scoreboard don't count. Everybody is laughing at the stupidity of the popular vote claim Hillary is making.
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OzarkDem
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Tue May-20-08 08:55 PM
Response to Original message |
43. Its propaganda and spin, nothing more |
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and since Obama has used the tactic so often in the primary, it won't be effective against the GOP in the GE.
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bowens43
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Tue May-20-08 09:08 PM
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46. HIllary has lost be every existing measurement. It's over. |
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Do yu need more of an explanation?
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lojasmo
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Tue May-20-08 11:32 PM
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49. Just the way things work. |
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Obama leads by every metric anyhow.
Get over it.
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