i talked to a relative who was very much in favor of Hillary and skeptical of Obama

[CreekDog]

months ago, she hadn't heard of Mark Penn, now she speaks of how badly he hurt Hillary's campaign. she also said that she saw Terry McAuliffe on tv and has been incredulous, she said, "all he says are numbers and numbers but they don't add up..."

we both agreed that had Hillary run a better campaign, she would be the nominee now and probably president in 2009.

while i feel good as an Obama supporter that he is winning, i feel bad that in a somewhat close race, she has lost so embarassingly. a few point loss in delegates and (votes :hide:) is respectable enough, but to lose them while gaining scorn from so many in her party is an embarassment of special magnitude.

and much of he scorn against Hillary is not because she is a woman, but largely because of the spin her campaign has used that is so transparent as to be embarassing for even me to listen to (the numbers arguments, the states that count arguments, etc.). further i think her lack of hesitation to be the hatchet man against Obama (with negative attacks to his face no less) I think ultimately hurt her because in my case, I always recoil when one Democrat goes negative especially if the exchanges leave them both weaker in the aftermath.

so i'm not happy she lost. i feel like i'm watching somebody sacrifice the last bits of self respect and dignity in public life that they have. i'm left with the unhappy thought that she is either better than she is letting herself appear to be, or that she is just like she is appearing these days.

:cry: i'm serious and to hear the disappointment from family members who liked her so much and pulled for her, disappointment that she is losing yes, but that losing in the particular way she has been has altered some of their thoughts about her.

as for Bill Clinton, well, I can no longer watch one of my all time favorite movies, "Primary Colors" because it's too hard to watch in light of some cognitive dissonance i've had about the Clintons this past year.

just my two cents (i'll end it there) :hide:

[TZ]

1. I hope

you put your flame suit on this early morning. You make great points. I should say I have a relative who is a DC insider who has told me that we are seeing the Clinton's true colors, both of them. That they were able to keep most of this vindictiveness hidden while in the WH but no more...Bear in mind this relative is a self descirbed democratic leaning "raging moderate".

[CreekDog]

2. very interesting post

and consistent with everything i've been reading about the Clintons, sad to say. while i was never a Hillary fan, heck, i almost voted for her, but i don't need to be a fan to vote for somebody. anyway, while i was never a Hillary fan, i was a big Bill Clinton fan, in 2000 waiting and hoping at the railing in Oakland that he would come out of the coffee shop he'd ducked into and give me a chance to shake his hand, he did, while talking to the Univision tv cameras immediately next to me.

i thought he was a political genius, and he is, though i couldn't help but notice that in 1996, he pivoted in that election and seemed to jettison efforts to help other Democrats in the waning days of that campaign and never really did understand that. now i think i'm beginning to understand it.

also in 1998 when the Lewinsky scandal blew up and friends in my hugely Democratic area were thinking he should resign and let Al Gore take over, i was saying, no way, Clinton is a fantastic president and there's no way i'd push him out of office unless it were unavoidable. back then, i seriously thought Gore would not be able to do as good a job.

and now i'm just reconsidering most of what i learned and thought in the 1990's, including my casual dismissal that the Clintons were particularly self centered.

[supernova]

3. I feel the same as you CD

it's like watching a very slow motion train wreck. And to the extend that she doesn't hurt our chances in the fall, it's sad to watch.

I used to like her... now? Depends on how she chooses to play this out.

It's as if the party has moved on in the last eight years and the Clintons don't want to acknowledge that.

[VotesForWomen]

4. clue: DU and the MSM do not represent america, so don't worry about the 'embarrassment.' what's real

really going to be embarrassing is when O loses the GE very badly, and the whole country sees what a bunch of idiots democrats are.

[Enrique]

5. she probably will be more popular than before the race

remember she always had high negative ratings.

Now, what people will think about is how hard she fought.

[dansolo]

6. Not amongst Democrats