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IMHO, why whites voting for whites and blacks voting for blacks can be morally different.

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CTLawGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 06:19 PM
Original message
IMHO, why whites voting for whites and blacks voting for blacks can be morally different.
In my estimation the morality of any conduct can be divided into 4 categories (1 being the most "moral" and 4 being the most "immoral"), which I illustrate through an example:

Imagine a kid in school who sees a group of bullies picking on a small kid he doesn't know. What roads can he take?

1. IDEAL CONDUCT
There are several acceptable options if he sees these bullies. The "ideal" option is the most "right" or "moral" option, the course of action your mother would tell you to take. In an ideal case, the kid would go over to the bullies and tell them to stop, and then tell an adult about it. He wouldn't HAVE to do that, but that is the most "right" thing he could have done.

2. JUSTIFIABLE CONDUCT
Justifiable conduct is ANY ONE of the other morally "right" options, that are not "ideal". This covers any action we would consider merely "acceptable." "Justifiable" options for the kid who sees the bullies picking on the small kid include: not participating but just walking away, or merely discouraging others not already involved from joining in, or comforting the small kid afterwards.

3. UNDERSTANDABLE CONDUCT
Understandable conduct is conduct that is "wrong" but done for an "understandable" reason. For the kid, that might be going up to a bully and pushing him to the ground. We understand why he is doing it, and that he is doing it for a noble reason (to protect the small kid), but the conduct is not "right." We, as adults, would not tell him to do that as a first option.

4. REPREHENSIBLE CONDUCT
Reprehensible conduct is "wrong" conduct done for a repulsive, selfish, or just plain "bad" reason. If the kid, wanting to seem "cool" in the eyes of the bullies, goes over, and joins in the taunting by throwing his PBJ sandwich at the small kid and making fun of him, that would fall under this category. He is no better than the bullies themselves.

Stop and think about how you feel about the action in 3. vs. the action in 4. 4 is clearly worse right? You wouldn't tell the kid to do 3 OR 4, but if you had a gun to your head you would clearly tell him to do 3 INSTEAD OF 4.

------------------------------------

What does this have to do with race/gender conscious voters?

Well if you ask voters to follow "ideal conduct" they would act completely race (and gender)-blind. This is pretty difficult to do because it is hard to separate candidates from their race or gender. If a voter can actually pull this off, their mothers would be proud! Judge everyone by the content of their character alone.

It is "justifiable" for a voter to consider race or gender (to the end of promoting opportunities for blacks and women - as in affirmative action), but as one of many factors, and not the overriding factor. Most people in this election fall into this category - they are excited about having a black man and a white woman, and that is a plus for them, but that's hardly the overriding thing driving their vote.

Ideally we'd like them to completely ignore race and gender, but that is so hard (becuase of the rarity of such candidates) we can't expect them to do it.

Now, if a black person votes for Obama, primarily becuase he is black, and a woman votes for Hillary primarily becuse she is a woman, both people are likely doing so out of a desire to see the success of those social groups. This is "understandable" conduct. It's not "right" for people to be using race or gender as the dominant consideration in deciding who to vote for, at all, but the intentions are noble ones. Society wants to see blacks and women assume the presidency at some point, that is a "good" goal.

Contrast that with a white person voting for a white candidate becuse she is white, or a male voting for a male becuase he is male. They are most likely doing so becuase of some animus toward blacks and women respectively. This is "reprehensible" conduct. It is immoral conduct (using race/gender as a predominant factor) for a bad reason (animus towards the other race/gender).

Thus, the whites voting for whites, and men voting for men, is worse then blacks voting for blacks and women voting for women.
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
1. evidently some racist behavior is ok and some is not - its good if it benefits YOUR candidate nt
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ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. So black democrats are racist. Blacks would NEVER vote for a white person
Edited on Wed May-21-08 06:27 PM by Truth Hurts A Lot
oh wait... :eyes: :sarcasm:

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AZ Criminal JD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. No they don't.
If there is a black candidate of their party going against a white candidate of their party they vote skin color.
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ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. bullshit nt
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FredScuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #9
21. Exactly
Excellent point..."if there is a black candidate of their party going against a white candidate of their party, they vote skin color"

That's why we had the presidencies of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton sandwiching the one term of Alan Keyes.

:eyes:
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AZ Criminal JD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #21
29. Jesse Jackson won 17 primaries
Edited on Thu May-22-08 11:57 PM by bamalib
The blacks in those states weren't voting for his opponents. Al Sharpton was a joke candidate and falls into the category of Keyes.
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NOLALady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #9
25. History says you are
wrong.
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AZ Criminal JD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. I am right. You are wrong and that is why you are silent.
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kevinbgoode Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #9
26. I see. And if there isn't a black candidate, they vote for the white man
like the rest of us have for over 200 years? Well now. . .talk about being disenfranchised. . .can you imagine the power exerted by a 35% minority in this country by telling us ONLY they can be elected to the highest office?

When I hear the media ask the rest of the 65% of Americans if they'll vote for another old white man for President, then we can have this racial discussion.
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Connie_Corleone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. That's why we voted 90% for Al Sharpton in 2004.
:eyes:
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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. Do you even get racism?
Show me an exit poll where 21% of blacks said they didn't vote for Clinton because she's white.

Blacks have backed white candidates before, so they aren't voting against Clinton because of her race. However, 21% of Kentucky voters (and that number is probably higher) said they didn't vote for Obama because he's black. THAT is racism.

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Mimosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. 21% said they voted on race: how many did but wouldn't say?
SCARY.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #11
23. Of course they do. They're just pissed that it's been outed, and are now making frantic...
white unity cries, hoping to catch some of the dumber or sympathetic of us in their "reverse racism" squawkings.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 06:24 PM
Response to Original message
2. difference is that the blacks have voted for whites and other non blacks
while these white voters(not all of them but the ones who refuse to support Obama because he is black) will not vote for anyone just because of their race.

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woolldog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Bingo. You get it.. And well stated too.
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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #2
14. Exactly
Think how many times blacks have voted for the white Democrat over the black Republican. They didn't vote on ethnic pride.

I understand women voting for Hillary and blacks voting for Obama out of gender or ethnic pride. The candidates have similar positions and either as President would benefit both women and blacks.

What is wrong is voting for the white b/c you could never vote for a black person. Or voting for a man cause you could never vote for a woman.

What is truly reprehensible would be to vote against your own best interests b/c you could never vote for a black or for a woman. That is truly idiotic!

Ask yourself would Democrats who are black or female vote for Condi Rice for President b/c she is black and female? No, most would not if they are truly Democrats b/c she would be against their own self-interest and against what they stand for as Democrats. And if they did vote for Condi on racial and/or gender lines then they are either idiots or not true Democrats.
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Orangepeel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 06:25 PM
Response to Original message
3. I don't know about all that... but it is different to give "bonus points" to a candidate because
the election of that candidate can break down barriers and inspire others than it is to vote against a candidate for those same reasons.

For me, both Clinton and Obama get those bonus points so it is a wash.

:shrug:

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leftofcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 06:28 PM
Response to Original message
7. Fail
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tokenlib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 06:30 PM
Response to Original message
8. Good post...it needed to be said...
...I was going to post a comment but was not happy with my words.. I'm tired of the excuses that white racists are excused by African-American turnout for Barack.
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Township75 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
10. That is a sick fucking insane attempt to justifying racism
if you vote for someone over someone else based on race it is racism, end of discussion. Same goes for sex and sexism.

I can't believe the extent I have seen some go to justify racism.
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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. No it isn't.
Edited on Wed May-21-08 06:34 PM by Drunken Irishman
Racism is voting AGAINST someone because of their race, not for someone because of their race.

Do you even understand racism?
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Township75 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. I do understand racism, you obviously don't
because by your logic racism is not giving a job to someone because of their race, but giving a job to someone because of their race is fine.

So the good ole boy system really is fine isn't it? (SARCASM)
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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. haha
So what, when all these black people were supporting white candidates, they weren't racist, then they woke up one day and decided to become racist? When they failed to back Al Sharpton or Carol Moseley Braun in 2004, they weren't racist, but when they backed Obama, they were?

Face it, you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

And the argument you're using, buddy, is the exact same trash conservatives use to attack affirmative action.

So it must feel good using Republican talking points!
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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. And if you vote for someone b/c of gender?
Edited on Wed May-21-08 06:37 PM by RamboLiberal
Is that genderism? Then a ton of Hillary supporters are guilty! Get the point? Sad so many Democrats can't see the difference.
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Township75 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Ummmm...
I said they same goes for sex and sexism...isn't that enough to cover your point?
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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. You don't really understand the difference
Sad. To this day race is more a hinderance than gender though neither battle is won. Too bad a lot of us can't live a day, or a week, or a year in a black person's skin to really understand racism!
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2rth2pwr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 06:36 PM
Response to Original message
16. Isn't that what Ferraro was saying?
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
20. And you wonder why people peg us Obamists as overly intellectual?
You've argued against racial discrimination while discriminating between types of discrimination based solely on race.

Were I not such a generous person, I'd call your argument hypocritical. But I'm a generous person, so I'll just call it dumb.
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
27. You've obviously put a lot of thought into this post, and I commend you for it.
:thumbsup:

I don't want to get into a verbal tug-of-war (tongue-of-war?) with other posters so I'll leave it at that.
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HuffleClaw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
28. translation: ANYTHING that supports 'my candidate' can be justified
good lord, if Obama stomped on a kitten someone would find a way to find it acceptable
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BenDavid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 11:58 PM
Response to Original message
31. simple: if a person votes for another because he/she is either
black/white that is racist. Pure and simple.....And damn stupid too....
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