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What some fail to understand about the rules and this campaign.

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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 09:31 PM
Original message
What some fail to understand about the rules and this campaign.
Edited on Wed May-21-08 09:36 PM by Drunken Irishman
When you're laying the foundation for a campaign, you build a strategy based around the rules and guidelines of the campaign. Every campaign has its own strategy to success and many campaigns have different paths to that success. Looking at the paths to victory for both Clinton and Obama shows a stark contrast in style.

Obama decided early on he would devote a lot of his time, effort and manpower to smaller states and caucus states. And why shouldn't he have, no rule from the DNC stipulated those voters and delegates were any less than that of big state primaries. Had the DNC ruled smaller states and caucus states could not count toward the delegate number, Obama's strategy would have dramatically changed for the primary campaign.

But since it was all within the rules, Obama put out an amazing ground game in Iowa, won that and during Super Tuesday, managed to win more pledged delegates than Clinton, even with losing the big prizes like New Jersey, Massachusetts and California. Clinton supporters and even the campaign themselves like to point to this fact to diminish Obama's success, saying many of these states would not vote Democratic anyway and many caucus states were undemocratic and favored the activists, so why should they count? Well they should count because that's what every campaign agreed on prior to this primary season. Clinton had her chance to criticize and question caucus states long before the first vote in Iowa, but she was silent. Not once, from January of 2007 when she kicked off her campaign, to January of 2008, did she raise any type of argument against caucus states. But now we hear from many that Obama's delegate lead should not count because he won many of them in caucus states and smaller states that probably won't go Democratic in the fall. Well who cares? These are the rules, rules that every candidate agreed on and no candidate questioned until one of them began losing.

Whether you agree with caucuses or not, they are permitted by the DNC as a way to select delegates. This is something every candidate knew and supported when they decided to run for the nomination. So Hillary can deny the caucus vote all she wants, but it doesn't change the fact that their delegates are just as valid as those from primary campaigns. And if she wanted it changed, she should have addressed this problem long before Iowa.

Now the second point of campaigning.

You can't count Michigan and Florida as is because they were not legitimate elections. No one knows how each state would have gone had the candidates been allowed to campaign there. Again, this is what ties back to the original rules in which EVERY campaign agreed on. Had the DNC decided to allow Michigan and Florida to move up their primary dates, I'm willing to bet Obama's campaign strategy -- along with Clinton's -- would have changed to fit their needs. A ) Obama's name would have been on the ballot in Michigan and B ) Obama would have campaigned there. That might not have been enough to win him Michigan, but it could have made it a far more competitive contest than it eventually came when Hillary was essentially running against her own self.

Now Florida is a bit different, but only because Obama's name actually appeared on the ballot. However, you can't justify those results when neither candidate stepped foot in that state. I know some would love to believe this makes the election more pure, because there is zero spin, but there's a reason they call it campaigning and for Obama, that was vital for him in Florida. Vital because Hillary Clinton is nearly universally known and while I don't doubt Obama had far more name recognition the week of the Florida primary than he did a year before, it doesn't change the fact he was never given the opportunity to show Floridians who he really was. To talk about policy, his background and what he wanted to do as president. Even at that point, not many people knew who Obama was outside of the fact he won Iowa and the endorsement of Ted Kennedy (the week of the Florida primary). That's not enough to endear yourself to voters and I think we can all agree had Obama spent even a week in Florida, he would have made somewhat of an impact in the polls. I concede Obama probably would not have won, but I don't think he would have lost as big as he did.

Ultimately, the reason I have a problem with Clinton's arguments is because I don't think Obama would have run the exact same campaign had the rules been altered. And why should he be the one punished for abiding by the rules? Because he built a stronger campaign utilizing what is an acceptable form of voting in the Democratic Primary process? That isn't right and I don't think we should reward Clinton because her campaign failed at a winning strategy within the Democratic Party rules.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 09:36 PM
Response to Original message
1. It doesn't matter
If you support Hillary you will agree mindlessly with whatever shit she spews for the day. They were calling us a cult because they were projecting and scared shitless. The cult of Hillary has been established since the day Kerry lost and its based on one premise. She deserves to be President and there is no rule, morarl, or ethic they will not cross to make that come true.
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Genevieve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Right, and she changes the 'rules' daily --
to suit her.


I believe she's the worst Democratic candidate I have ever seen.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. She's not a very good politian
that is for sure. Most good politians look into the future always and plan accordingly. She survives day to day.
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Genevieve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. That's because
'it will be over on Feb. 5th".




blecchhh.
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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. You're right.
Only in politics would this be allowed.

You'd never see a team, down 20 heading into the fourth quarter, demand the refs change the rules so that a 3-point shot is worth 5 points and a dunk worth 3.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Her supporters/followers
are enabling her. So all this unity shit going around the past week is stupid. You can't have unity with a cult like the Hillary one.

Why do you think Obama's planning the voter registration drives and reaching out to independents.
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dchill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
18. You are completely correct.
I remember her bashing Kerry for his "botched joke":

"Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.) likewise condemned the remarks. "What Senator Kerry said was inappropriate," she said at a Veterans of Foreign Wars post. She added: "We don't need to be reciting the 2004 election, as much as President Bush would like that to happen. This election is about him and his policies." - from the Washington Post.

If Hillary is not the exception to any possible rule, she cannot win. Therefore, the rules don't count.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
6. Your well-thought-out, intelligent post was completely in vain.
The people who buy what she's sellin' are beyond rationality. Nothing matters to them but seeing their lord Queen ascend.
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Dark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
8. What gets me is how she demands that Fla and Mich Dems' voices must be heard,
but the voices of Dems in small, red or caucus states don't count.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. She knows she can't win
However making Obama's win seem illegitimate is her goal now.
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BattyDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. That's exactly why the big name Dems need to give her a public smackdown.
Gore, Carter, Pelosi, Reid ... they need to make it clear that all candidates, including Hillary, agreed to the DNC rules and she is simply trying to undermine Obama and the Democratic party. Enough is enough!
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Rosa Luxemburg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. where are they?
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BattyDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. I don't know ... but the longer they wait, the more damage she'll do.
It's very depressing. :(
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Dark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. I know, but that's why I want the supers to finally come out and end this.
n/t
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FlyingSquirrel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. They will do so... but not yet.
No superdelegate wants to be the one whose endorsement puts either candidate over the top - besides not wanting that kind of attention, they'd rather have the voters make the decision. So they'll keep trickling in over the next 12 days, and then Obama will get 2,025 on June 3 during the final two primaries.

After that, there'll be a nice big flood of them which will ensure that Hillary cannot claim it still isn't over. Obama will need perhaps another 60-70 of them to have an airtight lock on the math REGARDLESS of whether MI and FL were counted as-is.

That's how it's gonna go down, so be patient. It's almost over.
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unblock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 10:48 PM
Response to Original message
11. exactly!
it's like obama outscored hillary with a ton of field goals, while hillary got more touchdowns but not enough points.
then she wants to say that no one's won the super bowl without scoring touchdowns or whatever.

well, obama wouldn't have practiced kicking field goals like crazy if only touchdowns counted. he would have built a team around touchdowns and we would have seen a vastly different game played out.



how many floridians and michiganders stayed home because people LIKE HILLARY said their primary votes wouldn't count for anything?
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 11:32 PM
Response to Original message
14. Rules matter and I think some here need to be reminded of that.
I am frequently in awe at the level of denial it takes to support what she is trying to do in Florida and Michigan. The subterfuge has been spectacular. But I think her desperation is heard loud and clear above all else and as much pressure as she is trying to put on the disposition of this, I believe order will prevail. McAullife was specific in his book about dealing with these jump-the-gun states, her people wrote the disposition of FL and MI, she signed onto it, and she doesn't have a legal or moral leg to stand on.
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
17. Obama's focus on picking up delegates in caucuses and
smaller states will look brilliant if he wins the General Election. Otherwise it will only serve to point out that our nomination process is flawed and can be gamed - ie; give a result that doesn't produce the strongest candidate for the fall election.
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dchill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
19. K&R.
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
20. K & R
:thumbsup:
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Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
21. "You are correct, sir"
~ lame impression of Ed McMahon
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Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
22. Maybe we should e-mail this thread to Hillary, perhaps she isn't aware of this.
Edited on Thu May-22-08 12:22 PM by Major Hogwash
Hahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!
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MagickMuffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
23. My observations about Democratic Party Rules about FL and MI
FL and MI broke the DNC RULES. It wasn't the Voters fault. It WAS the fault of the Elected officials.


Did the Voters get to voice their opinions (of moving the primary up) concerning this fiasco?.?.?


Hillary claims "those voices aren't being heard.

Did the FL and MI state legislators hold an election so the voters got to have their voices heard?.?.?




NOW the Elected Officials want to use the Voters as their pawns. Making the Voters feel disenfranchised when it was the Elected Officials who perpetrated this course of action.

Texas considered moving up our primary, but our Elected Officials thought better of it. Texas FOLLOWED THE DNC RULES. Texas didn't want to disenfranchise its Voters and Delegates.

I'm pissed, that the Elected Officials go on news programs further fanning the flames of disinformation. They knew they were BREAKING THE DNC RULES.


Why should the DNC have RULES if Elected Officials decide they don't want to FOLLOW the RULES set forth by the Democratic Party?.?.?



Concerning Michigan:

How do you think MI votes should be counted, since Obama wasn't on the BALLOT?.?.?

How can there be a fair tally in MI, since Obama wasn't on the BALLOT?.?.?





Hillary AGREED to the Democratic Party Rules when it served her purpose. After Obama started winning then the Rules went out the window and we started seeing the Kitchen Sink.



If FL and MI get away with BREAKING THE DNC RULES, just imagine what 2012 will look like, every state will be able to say the RULES don't mean a thing.






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