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Anyone pissed off at Obama over Lieberman should read "Roots"

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Empowerer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 08:29 PM
Original message
Anyone pissed off at Obama over Lieberman should read "Roots"
In Alex Haley's classic, Kunta Kinte's father teaches him that when he has his enemy cornered, he should always allow him an opportunity to escape, for two reasons. First, a trapped enemy will fight you to the death and, causing you much more injury and harm. Second, allowing him to retain some dignity makes it likely that he will remember the grace you showed and return it in some measure in future dealings.

That's exactly what Obama is doing with Lieberman. He had him cornered but rather than beat him down, he allowed him to save face. As a result, Obama will reap future political benefits. And, even if Lieberman never reforms and continues to behave as he has, what's the harm? He already went after Obama with everything he had and fell very, very short. Obama ain't skeered of him.

Obama is showing himself to be a brilliant politician and strategist in ways that are likely to also make him a great leader.

For example, his tacit absolution of Lieberman, while on its face may seem to be puzzling, is, in my view, genius.

Let's weigh the costs and benefits, aside from the "Roots" analogy.

While drumming Lieberman out of his chairmanship and out of the party may have felt good, what impact would it have had? Deterrence? Hardly. If we were facing a wave of Democrats running over to endorse Republican candidates, perhaps. But Lieberman's behavior is not epidemic and it is unlikely that harsh punishment against him would have frightened other Democrats from doing the same down the road. And other than retribution or deterrence, I can't think of any benefit or practical result of beating him up in the way that some people are demanding of Obama - spitting at Lieberman would not bring Obama one step closer to accomplishing any of his policy objectives that he was voted in to achieve.

But the downside of doing such a thing is apparent. As obnoxious as he has been, Lieberman DOES have a strong record of voting with Democrats on the vast majority of issues. Smacking him upside the head and publicly humiliating him would likely have undercut that. Further, it could have led him to switch sides when Obama still needs his vote. And, very important, it would have demonstrated that Obama is not REALLY any different than any other politician - that he is vindictive and retaliatory, even when it doesn't result in any real benefit to him or his objectives

On the other hand, letting Lieberman keep his seat will reap enormous benefits to Obama. First, he has earned big chits from Lieberman, which he will no doubt call in when he sees fit. He is also cementing his reputation as someone who IS really different than other politicians and who is willing to take a different road, even when his own people complain about it.

Change is easy when we're just talking about it. But actually CHANGING the way things are done takes guts. Obama is showing he has the guts to do what he said he was going to do.

Obama may not be skeered of Lieberman, but I'm sure skeered of Obama - he's a baaaad man.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 08:32 PM
Response to Original message
1. Ah - so THAT'S where my dad got that line from! It's still fucking stupid as applied to Lieberman...
Because it leaves out the obvious option of just killing the fucker while you can - metaphorically, of course.

And there's the Charlie Brown - Lucy - Football syndrome.

And there's the frog/scorpion story.

And there's....
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EffieBlack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. You're assuming that Lieberman is in a position to hurt Obama
He is not. He has proven himself to be toothless, not to mention politically tone-deaf. He went after Obama with everything he had and fell on his face. And now he's not even in the same position that he was then - the Democrats don't need him in order to control the Senate.

If he decides not to return Obama's courtesy to him, so what? What's he going to do? He has nothing left to throw at him.

I agree - Obama is a brilliant strategist. And the fact that he's not blinded by the need for revenge but can step back and see the big picture is very impressive to me.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #4
20. I'm not sure if you understand the nature of the chairmanship he holds or not.
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EffieBlack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #20
66. I understand it very well
And I understand that a Chairman has very little power to do anything without the support of the majority party on the Committee. They've got him boxed in.
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Frank Cannon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-08 04:49 AM
Response to Reply #66
88. Bullshit. He's going to dog Obama every fucking minute for the next 4 years
Mark my words. There was no reason whatsoever for letting that munchkin keep his chairmanship.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
18. Obama never said he wanted Lieberman to retain his chair. n/t
n/t
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Nor do I recall saying Obama *did* say that. Plz point out where I did. Thanks!
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. No, You never said it- I'm making sure people know its a fact though.
I wasnt trying to attack you- I just think the entire premise of the thread is a strawman- there is no facts supporting that Obama engineered any of this.

I was going to type the same response to others on this thread as well...

I'm pretty sure we might be on the same side here...
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #22
53. Holy Joe DID attribute his ability ...
...to retain his chairmanship to Reid's kind words and Obama's support at today's press conference.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #53
56. Then again, Joe is a traitor and a proven liar.
Of course he wants people to think that this was the exact, 100% outcome that Obama wanted.

The fact is that all Obama ever said is that Joe should caucus with DEMS- that is the record.

I'll go with Obama's words, not Joe's.
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rockymountaindem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 08:32 PM
Response to Original message
2. I think Machiavelli said something similar
along the lines of "either destroy a man entirely or treat him mercifully, for an enemy can take revenge for small injuries but not for great ones". And people say playing computer games is a waste of time...
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mokawanis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 08:33 PM
Response to Original message
3. I read Roots
and I still think they should have brought the fucking hammer down on JL.
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EffieBlack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. For what purpose?
What would the Democrats have gotten out of it - other than sweet revenge?

I'm serious. How would that have helped them advance Obama's agenda in any way?
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #7
21. This is all about revenge? So you actually think Joe is honest & competent?
So anyone who opposes Joe is soley driven by revenge- they cant legitimately thing that he is one of the worse people for the job?

Do you support Joe b/c you think he has done a good job, or are you just supporting him so that media people and Republicans cant accuse DEMS of revenge?
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EffieBlack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. Who said I was supporting Lieberman
I support Obama who obviously decided it was not in his administration's best interest for Lieberman to be kicked out of the Caucus or stripped of his chairmanship.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. Did Obama ever say that he wanted Lieberman to retain his chair?
Edited on Tue Nov-18-08 09:13 PM by Dr Fate
Show me where he said that.

Where did Obama say it was in his admins best interest to let Joe keep his chair?

All Obama said is that Joe should continue to caucus with the DEMS- which his constituency would have forced him to do anyway.

If you support Lieberman as chairmam, then you are supporting Lieberman, like it or not.

We agree on one thing- there is no point in getting angry at Obama...

I'll also give you this- I'm sure Obama will SAY that he agrees with whatever the Senate decides- but that is not the same thing as saying that Obama engineered Joe's retention of his chair...
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JeffR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
5. I'm not pissed at Obama, who said nothing more than he wanted to
see him stay with the Dem caucus. I'm pissed at Reid, who allowed the snake to keep his chairmanship. In fairness, if Obama put Reid up to it, then I'm quite happy to be pissed at Obama too.

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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #5
23. Exactly- Obama did not engineer this...
Certain factions are trying to suggest he did, so that they can paint Anti-Lieberman DEMS as "Anti- Change" or even "Anti-Obama."

Me? I'm just sick of spineless Senate DEMS and the excuses we always feel the need to make for them...
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political_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
6. You also forgot that a leopard never changes his spots.
It's an easier analogy. It is also proven by Lieberman's track record.
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EffieBlack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. Lieberman's track record is voting 90% with the Democrats
But even if he decides to be an ass, what difference would that make to Obama at this point?

I believe that Obama and the Democrats get MUCH more out of doing what they did today than they would have gotten if they had ground Lieberman into the dirt.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #14
26. And his CT constituents expect him to maintain that record- chair or no chair.
It's not like his CT consituents or Blue New England would have allowed him to be an Obama Obstructionist.

Again, Obama never said that Lieberman should retain his chair- Obama merely agreed with Joe's CT constituents that he should continue to caucus with DEMS.

The fact that Joe votes according to his constituency's wishes was never a trump card for him- he would have no choice but to continue this voting record either way...
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political_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #26
64. True. But he'll be caucusing all the while flirting with the GOP and badmouthing the Dems.
How can people ignore that?
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #64
69. If true, the why the fuck did we just give him a top position?
Am I misreading your post?
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political_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #69
81. No. People should be very alarmed that Lieberman is given a pass.
Edited on Wed Nov-19-08 12:35 AM by political_Dem
There are some who argue that Lieberman is now held in check. But I disagree. By showing no punitive measures for Lieberman's behavior only demonstrates that the Democrats are easy to manipulate.

I'm sorry for saying that, but from looking at Lieberman's antics, one has to wonder whether the other Dems are gluttons for punishment.

There are no assurances from Lieberman's camp that he will stop deriding Democratic candidates as well as siding with the GOP. His flirtation with McCain during the Campaign season was the last straw for a lot of folks.

How much does the Democratic party have to be ridiculed before it has to make a substantial stand?
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pocoloco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 08:40 PM
Response to Original message
8. Obama has a death grip on
liberman's hand with his balls!
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quantass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 08:41 PM
Response to Original message
9. The Book: 'The 48 Laws to Power' says the same thing exactly.
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always_saturday Donating Member (155 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 08:41 PM
Response to Original message
10. So just where do you draw the line? Anywhere?
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EffieBlack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. Lieberman's a nothing. A nobody. A silly little man who has shown he doesn't even have any
political smarts.

Why would Obama waste his firepower on him? He was much better off patting Joe on the head, stepping past him and going on about his business.

As Empowerer said, Obama ain't "skeered" of this hapless little man.
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always_saturday Donating Member (155 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #15
84. You didn't answer my question.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #10
31.  Obama never said that he wanted Lieberman to retain his chair.
Please keep this fact in mind- the OP has yet to demonstrate that this was Obaba's doing- all Obama ever said was that Joe should remain in the caucus.
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always_saturday Donating Member (155 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #31
85. Neither did you.
Funny how nobody will.

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tblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 08:41 PM
Response to Original message
11. Lieberman can be removed from the chairmanship at any time.
It doesn't have to happen right now. So we keep him on a short leash. So we keep him there as long as he serves our purpose, keeping all options open.

I've stopped trying to second-guess Obama. He is a brilliant political strategist. He's proven he's way smarter than me, and it sure looks like he wins, in the end, every time.
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ddeclue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
12. Nope... traitors you beat down...
LIE-berman has long since had his chance to return to the fold.
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
13. Welcome to DU! Great post! I detest Lieberman with the heat of a thousand suns, but I totally agree
with your interpretation of this move.

It took me a long time to appreciate Obama -- it was many months into the primaries, long after I had decided I didn't really care because everything was too fucked up anyway. I don't remember exactly what it was, but at some point during the period when Senator Clinton was throwing the kitchen sink at Obama, he did something that just stopped me cold.

"Whoooaaaa!" I said to myself, this guy is a fucking Kung Fu Master! This guy is Bruce Lee AND Mohammed Ali!

So, I totally get what you're saying -- I think you're right on. Good job!

Again, welcome to DU! :toast:

sw
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
16. Did Obama ever say that he wanted Lieberman to retain his chair?
Edited on Tue Nov-18-08 08:50 PM by Dr Fate
If the answer is no- then stop trying to make like Obama was behind this.

All Obama said was that he wanted Joe to remain in the caucus.

The balme goes to Reid and the usual spineless wonders, not the President...

I make this point b/c I can see an effort to paint anti-Lieberman DEMS as "anti-change" or even "anti-Obama"
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knixphan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 08:50 PM
Response to Original message
17. agreed.
And also...

PEOPLE OF CONNECTICUT! Wtf?
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
25. Very well written post....
I appreciate it.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #25
32. Except Obama never said that he wanted Lieberman to retain his chair.
The OP seems to gloss over that fact.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. Yes, I do remember that Obama never gave that directive.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. Right- so why agree with an OP that seems to suggest this?
Edited on Tue Nov-18-08 09:47 PM by Dr Fate
My main point is that it is not "anti-change" or "Anti Obama" if you strongly diagree with what Senate DEMS did regarding Lieberman.

I do agree with the OP that the facts dont offer any reason to be angry with Obama- unless one didnt even want him to caucus with us...(I agreed with Obama on that point)
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Empowerer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #32
38. I didn't gloss over anything
But I think that anyone who understands the various ways that information and directions are communicated in Washington certainly understands that Obama's comment that he wanted Lieberman to stay in the Caucus was a very clear signal to the Democratic Caucus that he "didn't want Lieberman touched."

If Obama wanted Lieberman to lose his chairmanship, he would have lost his chairmanship.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. I disagree- and you are speculating, while I'm using the available facts.
The Senate is separate from the executive, and their votes were held in private.

I didnt read his comments as he "didn't want Lieberman touched"- I read it as him agreeing with Joe's CT constituents- that he should continue to caucus with DEMS. That is all he said.

All we know is what Obama said- and he never said that Joe must maintain his chair, only that he should remain in the DEM caucus.

Until I have more facts, I have to assume that this was closed door good old boy Senate stuff, not the executive branch...






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poetsdream Donating Member (114 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 09:05 PM
Response to Original message
27. I agree this is a good move
I can understand many DUer's anger at Joe not being 'punished' for being a traitor. But I think Obama is showing us a whole new way of thinking about who to consider an 'enemy', and how to work with them in a way that benefits your goals. Obama is smart and thoughtful and I agree Liberman is small potatoes on the 'enemy pecking order' and our energy should be saved to fight not just enemies of the democratic party, but of everyday people.

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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #27
33. Except Obama never said that he wanted Lieberman to retain his chair.
So I'm not sure if this is Obama's doing at all.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #33
40. Good show, Dr
You've had to say it a few times to diff peeps and its the truth: Obama never said he wanted Lieberman to retain his chair. Some folks imagine Obama did, but they're wrong.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. I was alerted to the mods for "stalking" for doing so.
But I will continue to repeat this fact and I will continue to demand answers from the people repeating this meme until I'm proven wrong.
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EffieBlack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. The OP did not say what you claimed it said
Nowhere in the OP did he claim that Obama told the Caucus to allow Lieberman to keep his chair, but you continue to "stalk" anyone who even discusses this issue - you've said the same thing in a half dozen posts in this thread alone.

I don't know why this is such a big deal to you, but you really need to let it go.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. The OP suggests that some DUers might feel the need to be angry at Obama.
I'm striking that down as a false premise- as far as the hard facts that are available- no DUers have any reason to blame Obama for Liebermans chairmanship.

As far as the hard facts go, the only DUers who should be mad at Obama are the ones who didnt want Joe to even caucus with us...

Why is it a big deal to me? Well why is it a big deal to anyone, one way or the other? Maybe all the people who disagree with me should "let it go" too, right? Are all the DUers who are constantly defending Lieberman and making the same excuses over an over also "stalkers"? Sheesh.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #44
51. Jolly good
I went 'round with a few on another thread, earlier. No one ever did show me where Obama said any such thing. But they believed he did. I guess they wanted to believe. There is a word for such idiocy....
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. It's propaganda- Pro-Lieberman DEMS want to paint good DEMS as "anti-change"
To do this, they have to make everyone think that Obama somehow engineered these exact results...

But you knew that- I'm glad I'm not the only one who isnt falling for it.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #52
59. As we well know
Obama would be happy to see holy joe take a blood bath... joe deserves it. But Obama is to cool to be the one filling the tub. He's fine with however the senate handles this matter, he has bigger fish to fry and other tubs that matter much more than little ol joe's.



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quiet.american Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 09:06 PM
Response to Original message
28. I wonder if Lieberman is puckering up to give Obama a big smackeroo at his first State of the Union.
A la Bush.

In any case, well-reasoned post.

I just don't like that super-weasel Lieberman.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 09:07 PM
Response to Original message
29. This I do know..
Obama is not afraid of lieberman.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #29
35. True- and Obama never said that he wanted Lieberman to retain his chair.
I know the OP suggests it, but I'm not seeing the hard facts to back that one up.
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
36. Thanks so much for posting this.
Edited on Tue Nov-18-08 09:22 PM by Gregorian
Tonight was my first nosedive after winning the election. Between Lieberman and Holder, I am having doubts.

But as for Lieberman, I think you're right.

I have been so frustrated, and have wanted revenge. But like another poster said above, what good would that do? And like I've said on other posts, the behavior of any given person will be different under a different leader. There is no doubt about that.

And I'll take it yet another step. Love thy enemy. Everyone has an impossible time with this. But it's more damaging than doing battle. Or it often brings the enemy around.

I had a talk with my dad tonight about this. He had a distributor rip him off for a lot of money once. Against his better judgment, he hired an attorney. It ended up horribly. He could have literally let the guy walk away and done better. He wasted his energy. He lost even more money.

I'm still quite disturbed. Especially since I am LEFT. I voted Kucinich in the primary. That's what I want. But Obama is cool. And I believe he is gifted, politically.

It's hard to be patient when you wanted Bush impeached in 2002. So thanks. I needed your post.


I do want to add that it's especially hard to do this with Lieberman considering he campaigned for Palin. That is sick. Oh well. No point in being hateful. Only in being smart.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. Except Obama never said that he wanted Lieberman to retain his chair.
Not that you said anything incorrect, but it's a fact that many DUers seem to be missing.
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. I think that he going to be shortlived.
Edited on Tue Nov-18-08 09:26 PM by Gregorian
You're right. We don't know the whole picture.

His committee is a bunch of freshmen Senators. He may get hell from Connecticut in 2010. And I think Obama can pull on his leash at any time down the road. Meanwhile, he may be better as a warm "Democrat" than nothing.

I'm trying to be patient. It ain't easy! :)


Also, I think a number of things Obama is doing right now are ways in which he can build a shield against Republican attacks.
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EffieBlack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #39
43. You really seem to be obsessed with this one point
You are popping up all over the place saying the same thing over and over. Alright, we get your point.

But you seem to have missed the Op's point . . . Obama telling the Democratic Caucus that he wanted him to stay in the Caucus was a clear signal about how he wanted him handled.

But even if that weren't the case, the point still stands. The Democratic Caucus is working hand-in-hand with President-Elect Obama. Like him, they surely know that it does no good to smack Lieberman around right now and it is much smarter strategically to keep him in the fold and allow him to keep his chairmanship. Among other things, they are following Obama's lead of behaving less like pissed off high-schoolers and thinking strategically and focusing on the big picture.

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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. And I will continue to say it over and over- b/c no hard facts support the conventional wisdom.
Edited on Tue Nov-18-08 09:48 PM by Dr Fate
And I disagree with your premise- Joe could have been herded into the DEM caucus according to Obama's wishes w/o allowing him to retain his chair...

Lieberman had ZERO options to become an anti-Obama obstructionist, chair or no chair- and I think Obama knew this.

My opinion, but I'm guessing that Senate DEMS were too chicken to call his bluff-that or there is some good old boy stuff going on- but I do not think Obmama engineered this- and no hard facts support it.

(Edited for bad spelling)
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EffieBlack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. I rarely put people on ignore, but you've become insufferable . . .
See ya.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. I wasnt arguing for your benefit anyway- so ignore away. Those who cant debate can always ignore.
Edited on Tue Nov-18-08 09:42 PM by Dr Fate
I'm making a factual point that I feel people are missing or glossing over.

I'll still refute any points you have that I disagree with whether you ignore me or not.

I re-read my posts and I'm not sure what offended you- I guess you just cant refute anything I'm saying.
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Gold Metal Flake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 09:35 PM
Response to Original message
47. What will be the focus of Lieberman's first hearings of 2009?
What was the focus of his last hearing?
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Morning Dew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
54. So, how'd that all work out for Kunta Kinte?
Lieberman should have been stripped of the committee chairmanship.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. Besides- Obama never said that he wanted Lieberman to retain his chair.
Sorry for repeating it so much, but the entire OP seems to operate under a false premise, in my humble opinion.
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Morning Dew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. I hear what you're saying but you show up as nearly every alternating post in this thread.
saying the same thing.

:)

I hear you, Dr. Fate.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. And yet there are 25 times as many posts on DU suggesting the opposite.
Edited on Tue Nov-18-08 10:03 PM by Dr Fate
I hope you tell all the Lieberman damage control people all over this board to stop repeating themselves too...


At least I'm repeating proven facts, not speculation.
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Morning Dew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. I get that.
I don't know what behind the scenes machinations went on.

I want Judas Joe gone, gone, gone.

Never trust a traitor. Never.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #60
63. I'm glad we can agree on many levels- not to mention your handle!!
If you havent listened to that song in it's original MONO studio version, you are missing out!!!
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Morning Dew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #63
67. I always love the Jerry ballads.
:)
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #58
61. It's because you're quibbling. Over and over and over. And over.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. And so are the Lieberman damage control people- they are posting much more than me.
Edited on Tue Nov-18-08 10:49 PM by Dr Fate
My 15 or so posts on this thread are a drop in the bucket compared to the multiple posts all over this site that are based on a false premise- at least it is false according to the available facts.

And sorry, but my facts vs. their mere speculation isnt "quibbling" in my opinion- facts are important.

I hope you are lecturing the pro-Lieberman posters who keep offering the same excuses and false premises over and over again as well.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #62
65. Dude - no matter how right you are, spamming is troll-like behavior...
And NOBODY likes that - whether or not they agree with you.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #65
68. I cant wait to see you call the Lieberman damage control spammers "trolls."
Edited on Tue Nov-18-08 10:48 PM by Dr Fate
B/c they have spammed their speculation (or intentional misinformation?) on a much larger level- and there are more than one of them! At least my posts are based on what the O actually said.

Looks like you have some work to do... ;)
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #68
72. (facepalm) That's like the STUPIDEST false equivalence I've ever seen...
And since when is "Mommy! He did it FIRST!!!" a defense of anything?
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #72
75. Right- so people with actual quotes are "trolls"- while people post'n misinformation get left alone.
Edited on Tue Nov-18-08 11:23 PM by Dr Fate
Talk about head smacks!

LOL! You do what you want- I'm going to try to get the facts of what Obama really said across to as many people as I can...
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EffieBlack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #54
73. Did Kunta Kinte ever have his captors cornered?
No? Then your question is irrelevant.
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Morning Dew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #73
80. For starters, it wasn't Kunta Kinte's father who gave that lesson
It was Kunta's kintango, Silla Ba Dibba.

Kunta's father's advice was to never run toward any dangerous animal.

I'd have preferred Nyo Boto's crocodile story:

http://books.google.com/books?id=BVM7J7T5cxkC&pg=PA11&lpg=PA11&dq=crocodile+story+roots+alex+haley&source=bl&ots=tmgbwqeGBb&sig=ZFRc4EHNbldYwTYmlXW7G0LnlJ8&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA11,M1



"It is the way of the world that goodness is often repaid with badness."
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 11:02 PM
Response to Original message
70. this is a great post, however
Lieberman has proven himself to be a small, small man. And his continued chairmanship of that committee is a danger to our security. He's no Henry Waxman, Joe will kill investigations into his buddies time and time again. No way will we ever get important answers on anything with him around.
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AndrewP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 11:04 PM
Response to Original message
71. Interesting and well said
I hadn't thought of it that way before.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #71
77. At the risk of being accused of being a "troll"-do ya really believe that Obama wanted Joe as chair?
Edited on Tue Nov-18-08 11:25 PM by Dr Fate
If so- can you show me where he said this?
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Willo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 11:21 PM
Response to Original message
74. Kunta was also given a rough option for LEAVING
Edited on Tue Nov-18-08 11:22 PM by WIllo
the party he didn't ask to join.

All things being equal, that would make Lieberman a double amputee.
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BrotherBuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 11:22 PM
Response to Original message
76. Alex Haley borrowed from Sun Tzu's The Art of War - Chapter Seven: Armed Struggle
Disciplined, wait for disorder; calm, wait for clamor. This is
the way to manage the mind. Near, wait for the distant; rested,
wait for the fatigued; full, wait for the hungry. This is the way
to manage strength. Do not do battle with well ordered flags; do
not do battle with well-regulated formations. This is the way to
manage adaptation. Therefore, the principles of warfare are: Do
not attack an enemy that has the high ground; do not attack an
enemy that has his back to a hill; do not pursue feigned
retreats; do not attack elite troops; do not swallow the enemy's
bait; do not thwart an enemy retreating home. If you surround the
enemy, leave an outlet; do not press an enemy that is cornered.
These are the principles of warfare.
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #76
78. "do not press an enemy that is cornered" (Bears repeating) nt
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #78
79. When do we apply the Art of War to Joe's apparently WONDERFUL FP postitions?
Edited on Tue Nov-18-08 11:39 PM by Dr Fate
Doesn't that same book mention something about how occupying a nation will deplete your country's morale & resources?

Is this legit, or are we only using Sun Tzu's words when it is time to defend Lieberman rather than oppose him?
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 01:10 AM
Response to Original message
82. Not holding Lieberman accountable for his trangressions signals that rules
and principles are not important. Obama is like Bush on this topic -- the rules/laws are for suckers, not for the elite few.
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AwakeAtLast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
83. I have kept silent on Lieberman until your post
I am inclined to agree with you. I think Obama will have Lieberman under his thumb, always with this act of grace hanging over his head. If Lieberman even dares to go against him in the future, Obama will cast him aside to the mercy of Republicans. Those Repukes will want no part of him by that time because he will have jumped sides too many times.

Just my $.02
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JDwho Donating Member (339 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-08 03:20 AM
Response to Original message
86. No, not ticked at all. It may have been on snide side, but Lieberman derserves much worse.
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Norrin Radd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-08 03:25 AM
Response to Original message
87. The lesson of the fable "The Scorpion and the Frog" is a better consideration.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-08 05:13 AM
Response to Reply #87
89. :)
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Norrin Radd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-08 05:31 AM
Response to Reply #89
90. :) Didn't notice you'd posted that already!
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-08 05:40 AM
Response to Reply #90
91. No worries - it bears repeating. I just liked the book-ends of the thread.
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