Um...there are black gays too; I am one.

[knowledgeispwr]

A lot of the bickering about "who has it worse" overly simplifies the histories and situations of too many. It's as simplistic and cynical as the MSM's treatment of blacks and women during the Democratic primaries (so what about black women?). Do you all remember how CNN decided what a good idea it would be to address black women by going down to SC to interview black women in beauty shops (because apparently that's the only place you can find black women) and ask them, in so many words, if they were going to vote based on their skin color or based on their vaginas. It reduced and trivialized experiences and the ideas of those women they sought to interview.

Likewise, much of the discussion trivializes people (gays and blacks) and glosses over those of those who fit into both categories. I was thrilled with Obama's victory because I thought he was a great candidate and I still believe he could be a great president; for me, the fact that he's black is icing on the cake and shows how far we've come as a nation, although we have far to go. On the other hand, I was deeply disappointed by the passage of Prop 8 and similar resolutions in other places such as Florida. At the same time, I was perplexed at the heaping of blame on "the black community" (I always miss the meetings where we decide our collective opinions on everything) when a number of factors led to the passage of that measure that should have never been on the ballot. I also disagree with the plan to have Warren speak at the inauguration but I'm still excited that we'll have a competent Democratic president.

I've often felt in my life that I'm my own person, identity-wise. I don't fit into any neat box and fit few if any stereotypes of the groups/categorizations that I supposedly belong to. I realize this post is rather eclectic, but suppose my point is that much of the conversation ignores those of us whose identities spread across various lines.

[Karenina]

1. EXACTLY!

:yourock:

[NJmaverick]

2. What you say makes sense and is understandable. The fundamentals of identity politics are flawed

Groupings are arbitrary. They can be gender, age, height, region of the country, sexual orientation, religion, weight, region of the Country, level of education, nationality, income and so one. Which grouping is used, is usually a matter of convience, for the person trying to support, what is usually, a flawed position. This Country and the world would be a better place if we got rid of the labels and groupings and started judging people by their character and actions.

[AtomicKitten]

3. A unique perspective on why the oppression oneupmanship around here is ridiculous.

K&R

[knowledgeispwr]

4. Thank you. It is very ridiculous, but I expect this OP to sink.

Such bickering is belittling to us all.

[dsc]

5. It wasn't based on one exit poll

but poll after poll over time where it has been demonstrated that blacks are vastly more likely to be against gay rights in general, and marriage equality in particular. The results, to the extent they are able to be judged that way, show pretty much the same pattern that the exit polls did. We lost the black vote heavily in California. Was it 70%, maybe yes, maybe no. But it surely was closer to 70% than it was to 50%. The rest of your post I tend to agree with but I think it is unfair to say we relied on one exit poll to judge the vote in California.

[Starry Messenger]

7. That's why voting on these things is so ridiculous.

In my opinion anyway.

[racaulk]

10. Agreed.

The civil rights of a minority should never be put up to a public vote, because the majority will prove time and time again just how tyrannical it can be.

And I won't even start on how ridiculous it is, IMHO, that a state Constitution can be amended by a simple majority vote on a public referendum.

[Starry Messenger]

21. Exactly.

It makes me nuts.

[Balderdash]

26. Agreed! nt

[knowledgeispwr]

11. Rights should never be up for a vote. n/t

[Karenina]

18. EXACTLY!

[knowledgeispwr]

15. I'm not disputing that black voters in CA voted overwhelmingly for the measure

I was just attempting to point out that unfortunately a number of people did rely on one exit poll. But in any case, that wasn't the main point of my OP, rather the singling out of black voters while ignoring the issue of the religiosity of certain voters and the lopsided ad campaign in favor of Prop 8. Again, since it wasn't a main point of my OP, I'll remove that mention from it so that it doesn't distract.

[HughMoran]

34. "that wasn't the main point of my OP"

...that's what I was thinking too...

[HamdenRice]

42. "surely was closer to 70% than it was to 50%" -- Out FM says 58% nt

[Solomon]

62. But how much of a percentage overall is the black vote in California?

Blaming this on blacks is ridiculous and absurd.

[HamdenRice]

63. My point is, not only is it absurd, but they don't even have the numbers right nt

[Karenina]

64. 6%?

:shrug:

[Bette Noir]

69. Flawed polling.

If you controlled for age, education, religion, and income, "blacks" didn't vote for 8 any more than any other groups.

[racaulk]

6. Excellent points all around!

There is nothing I can say that could possibly add to this well written post.

K&R!

Also, this thread touches on some of the same thoughts presented in your OP. If you have not aleady seen it, it may be worth your time to give it a look. :hi:

[knowledgeispwr]

9. Thanks for the link. I just read it

and you're right, it does touch some of the same points. I recommended it. :hi:

[Starry Messenger]

8. k & r

[wndycty]

12. And this is the reason I say we shouldn't be comparing. . .

. . .because each challenge is unique.

[Lex]

13. There are gay women too. Sexism and homophobia.

And there are black gay women.

It's not a contest, I agree with you. :thumbsup:

[Vanje]

14. "Error: You've already recommended that thread."

But I can still kick!

Any percieved rift between the African American "community" , and the gay "community,is a conservative republican's wet dream.

Any "rift" is based on the erroneous idea that civil rights is a finite pie.
If you get some slices, then there are less left for me.

Civil rights are not a pie.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

20. Divide and conquer has always been their mantra. And sadly they tend to win.

This is the reason why Proposition 8 proved successful. The Religious Right knew that black Americans would be out voting en masse for Obama. So they deliberately exploited the high emotions of the prospect of having a duly elected black president. Let's face the fact that The Right have been winning the so-called Cultural Wars now for 30 years. Much of that is attributed to the progressive movement and the lack of organization, cohesion, and a resonating message. Had the progressives, their supporters brought the entire community together in an organized fashion and a coherent message, Prop 8 may have been defeated. But, as usual, The Right had the organization, the effort, the message and the money. The Left took for granted that California is "progressive," so fighting hard wouldn't be necessary. Where are the progressive voices from the pulpit? Why aren't they standing up?

[Karenina]

44. EXACTLY!

Damn, I'm on a loop here! ;-)

[shellgame26]

72. Yup yup

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

16. You are a true American hero. Very brave...

I am a straight black woman who was raised by a gay father. One of the things that really irks me about this argument is that even those who should know better are behaving as if there are no black gay/lesbian brothers and sisters. In the black community, sadly, being gay/lesbian is still considered a "white thing". This past weekend, my father and many of his black gay friends were lamenting this fact: the fact that black gays/lesbians--and most gays/lesbians of color--are being rejected and marginalized by everyone. They are unwelcome in the white, mainstream LGBT community. (Yes, there is racism in the white gay/lesbian community that is often just as bad if not worse than the larger society.) They are also unwelcome in their own community, which is so disheartening. Meanwhile, the black community is struggling to deal with the extraordinarily high numbers of men and women living with and ultimately dying from AIDS/HIV. At the same time, it is precisely because of the homophobia that exists in the black community that the silence and hatred leads to death. On the other hand, the rejection of black gays/lesbians from the larger white gay/lesbian community must surely be devastating. That community was supposed to be more open and welcoming, but it often is not. That is evident by how many white gays/lesbians are pointing fingers at the black community when they need to be dealing with the racism and sexism that exist within their own group and remember that the more they raise their voices, the more they forget that they are alienating black gays/lesbians.

Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts.

[knowledgeispwr]

19. I'm no hero, just a young guy trying to get an education.

But thanks for your kind words and sharing about your dad. What you've shared just shows how complicated everything is, and that attempts to slice and dice us and have "oppression contests" miss the problems that us real people face.

[MikeE]

47. I know, the oppression contests

remind me of a bunch of old people sitting at the table talking about their medical problems:
"My back is messed up"
"You think you are in pain, my gall bladder is acting up again"

Then again, I just got back from visiting family for the holiday, so maybe I'm just having flashbacks of that.

[Karenina]

36. The elephant in the room...

[AntiFascist]

50. I noticed at a local No on 8 protest recently...

where it looked like several hundred people participated, but it didn't seem like there was a single black person present. I found this really odd and hope that feelings of discrimination were not responsible. If anything, these are the voices that we should reach out to, and which should be heard in order to build bridges of understanding.

[angee_is_mad]

17. I disagree on the Beauty Salon

thing being a black woman and all, lol. But thank you brotha for this great post.

I just wish we could all work together and realize we are more alike than different. The only way that will happen is for all groups to release their own hidden prejudices and get real with themselves and take a HARD look in the mirror.

Sometimes the most progressive of us can be our worst enemy.

[knowledgeispwr]

23. Haha, I'll won't argue with you about beauty salons

But I agree about us all taking a hard look in the mirror. Most of us have our hidden prejudices that we all must struggle to deal with. Civil Rights aren't a contest; they are RIGHTS.

[TygrBright]

22. No, this OP should NOT sink.

You say it well, and it cannot be said too often.

Identity politics is the boomerang that has knocked liberals off the power map many times. We pick ourselves up and go on, vowing to be smarter and more inclusive and broader in focus, and we succeed for a while. But sooner or later we begin again, zeroing in on who's getting the most visible or vocal or heart-rending effects, rather than addressing the fundamental economic and social patterns that cause damage for everyone (whether we're aware of it or not.)

Yes, sometimes we can address those fundamentals through how they affect this kind of person or that kind of person, and it seems to produce a lot of result for an economy of effort, and that's great. But if we lose sight of WHY it worked ('we were addressing a fundamental problem via how it affected this or that kind of person,' NOT 'we were addressing how to improve things for this or that kind of person'-- a subtle difference but critical) we are right back to lobbing the boomerang.

And of course, one of the fundamental problems we should be addressing is why our children are not being educated to move beyond pigeonholing people based on physical or social characteristics, and how to relate effectively to all kinds of people, even those very different from ourselves.

Big stuff like that can't be sorted out with one or two laws or regulations or budget line items. You don't see the results quickly. They aren't viable political issues for a two- or four- or six-year election cycle. But the only way lasting change ever happens is to set the longer term goals and keep making incremental progress by committing ourselves to trial and error and not giving up.

So thanks for the reminder.

appreciatively,
Bright

[knowledgeispwr]

24. You hit the nail on the head with education

And of course, one of the fundamental problems we should be addressing is why our children are not being educated to move beyond pigeonholing people based on physical or social characteristics, and how to relate effectively to all kinds of people, even those very different from ourselves.

It is so important that we learn to get along and treat people as individuals. It sounds simplistic and trivial, but we must learn to take each person as an individual and not put them into the "neat" little boxes that turn out to be not so neat. One of my best friends, who also happens to be black and gay struggles with the boxes, but at the same time occasionally puts himself or others into a box and I must remind him that it's that sort of thinking that causes us so many problems. Ironically enough, he works with surveys and demographic information; needless to say, our conversations about labeling and categorization get pretty interesting.

[freestyle]

25. Thanks for the reminder post. They are too necessary around here.

Intersectionality is too often completely dismissed, when it is key to achieving justice for all.

[AntiFascist]

27. Blaming the black community for Prop 8 is not right....

but I feel that more blame can be assigned to Obama based solely on the comment he made at the widely popular Saddleback debate, and the way that comment was used by the Yes on 8 people in their campaign. Stating that Obama was opposed to Prop 8 is not a good enough defense because that opposition did not receive nearly the same publicity.

[Bluenorthwest]

28. Dig your post big time

Peace. Happy New Year. Thanks.

[Beacool]

29. I have several gay friends.

Three of them are black. They felt conflicted at the time about who they should support, but ended up voting for Hillary in the NY and NJ primaries. They felt that she would better represent their interests.

On an aside, I always thought of NYC as being quite liberal but was brought back to reality some years ago. I was walking with one of those three friends, Terry, in Greenwich Village. On 8th St. to be precise, the bastion for tolerance of all sorts of people. What shocked me was that as Terry and I passed a group of young white guys spat a racial slur at us (they thought that we were a couple). I was talking a mile a minute, as usual, and didn't get every word but Terry looked disgusted and said nevermind. He said that he was used to getting it in double doses, for being black and for being gay. It still shocked me that in NYC and on 8th St., of all places, someone would be so nasty.

:(

[knowledgeispwr]

30. No group nor place is immune from prejudice unfortunately.

It just goes to show that, being humans, we are more similar than we are different. We should be able to rejoice in who we are, appreciate our similarities and celebrate our differences.

[Beacool]

66. You're right.

Happy New Year!!!

:hi:

[vaberella]

32. I always find these comments interesting.

I was talking about this with my sister after watching a youtube clip of Hasselbeck crying over the *N* word. I don't want to sound offensive but I always think it's just something I see with White people to have a level of blinders on. It's not any affront to you as a person, but I always feel that the Black community is always looked upon with binoculars. You can have friends of multi-races but there is no real understanding of the plight they go through.

I have lived in NYC all my life, it's my hometown, and even in Harlem you'll see the massive racism between Black and Hispanics. In my area Blacks get it pretty bad considering they're low on the totem pole here. The point being that race is always facing drama no matter the area they're in.

I find NYC and California more racist than even the South. Mainly because in the South you know where you are. When you're Gay and Black the trials and tribulations that are faced are insurmountable at times it seems. You are affected by both prejudices big time no matter where you are in the U.S. That's how deep the social construction has become. It's ingrained and caused this seperatist mentality amongst the people. Not to mention that Blacks have this machismo thing in the culture, I'm Haitian and I can tell you it's ten fold, so if a family member even dared to say they were gay...I'd be surprised if they made it out alive.

[Beacool]

67. I guess we all live different realities.

We may be on the same path, but we wear different shoes and no one truly knows what someone else goes through. I saw the same thing during the primaries with sexism. Even now and including on this board many deny that there was any sexism used against Hillary and also Palin (though I abhor the woman's politics). It appears that we all see only what we want to see.

Still, to see such blatant racism in the middle of the Village, where anything goes, did shock me at the time.

:-(

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

48. You're so right about the Village and Chelsea.

My Dad and his friends were discussing that black gays/lesbians tend to hang out in the Village while the white gays/lesbians socialize in Chelsea. It's very sad.

As for voting for Hillary, they all should realize that Hillary holds the exact same position that Obama has with regard to gays/lesbians. Like Obama, she supports civil unions. And like Obama, Hillary is against gay marriage. Her husband signed Don't Ask Don't Tell into law, as well as the Defense of Marriage Act. Obama has pledged to review and overturn both with congressional approval. Obama also pledges to strengthen anti-discrimination laws like the Employment Non-Discrimination Act (ENDA) and others. We'll see what happens, but please understand that Hillary Clinton's positions on LGBT issues is the same as Obama's.

[Beacool]

68. Never made the connection between Chelsea & the Village.

Good point. As for Bill and DOMA & Don't Ask Don't Tell, it was 1993 and the times were different. Bill tried to do the right thing and was trashed by the Pentagon and Congress. The Clintons have a long history of being gay friendly. They have always had gays in their respective staffs and also among their close friends. Obama was a lesser known commodity. I'm sure that he'll do the best he can, but choosing Rick Warren to give his invocation was a bad move IMO. To me it was a slap in the face of the gay community.

[sundog]

31. good post

i think framing gay vs black is a very bad trail to go down

i've been eschewing those threads because these types of arguments help no one & certainly don't consider people who fit into both categories

i believe pitting minority against minority is often how the select few are able maintain control

there are even more factors at play when analyzing the whole situation, including socioeconomics & class structure

bottom line is civil equality & those who have been denied it share a common experience

chalking up lists of bigotry is a quagmire

we should never forget the pain that generations before us had to endure

but i'm not interested in using that pain as a weapon against other minorities - only as a solemn reminder of what brought each one of us to where we are today

thanks for your post

[knowledgeispwr]

37. As another poster in this thread stated, 'divide and conquer' is an old trick

When we get to bickering amongst our selves, we aren't solving problems. When we're working separately, we aren't fully utilizing our potential to bring about positive change.

[wryter2000]

33. K&R

I hate the comparisons. They're pointless, get us bickering with each other, and make us look silly.

[Laughing Mirror]

35. Thank you for this excellent post

You speak for me too, only in a much clearer voice. Thanks!

[jonnyblitz]

38. I appreciate your post and hope you add your voice to future

discussions and don't let all the yelling intimidate you.:hi:

[knowledgeispwr]

41. Thanks....though sometimes I wonder what the point is...

I've actually been on a little DU vacation for a couple of weeks because there seems to be too many people yelling past each other rather than actually talking about what makes complicated issues complicated.

[BlueButGlad2]

39. What a reasonable post (for the most part)

What a reasonable post, for the most part.

OK, I'll admit I don't see anything wrong with CNN interviewing black women about the Hillary vs Obama thing. It's just one of many stories, and of course picking a president goes beyond gender and race, but I don't have a problem with that story. It's just one of thousands and some people really did vote largely based on gender or race; I don't think that there is any denying that.

About prop 8, as a white gay american (though living in a gay marriage state: Massachusetts) I will admit to disappointment that this historic election was a bit marred by black majorities voting against gay equal rights, while supporting a black president. But that was one factor of many, and knowledgeispwr: you are very correct in stating that we should never be voting on matters of giving or depriving people their human rights.

On Rev. Warren, again some disappointment. Still, the important thing is the big picture. The nation has so many big problems right now so I hope we can move past this quickly, and wish Obama well in takling what needs to be tackled. I have faith in him as the best man (er, person) for the job.

[knowledgeispwr]

43. Thanks for a thoughtful response

I had a problem with that CNN segment because of how they did it: they specifically made it about a choice between Obama and Clinton (there were still other candidates) and made it all about a choice of race or sex, and they only really went to beauty salons. What about university students, business women? It was just so simplistic. I don't deny that *some* people did vote based on race or gender (for or against someone), but that storyline was a trivialization of all the folks involved.

I share your disappointments (as I stated in the OP) but also your hope that we can move to solve some of our very serious problems. Again, thanks for a thoughtful response. :hi:

[BlueButGlad2]

53. I'm a fan of your thoughts!

Well, I'm a fan of your thoughts, if that's possible! You are very convincing. I better understand your objections to the CNN segment now. Thanks.

[Political Tiger]

40. You said it perfectly!

K & R!

[AspenRose]

45. Kickety

:kick:

[KT2000]

46. Thank you so much

for this post. I have avoided posting anything on this subject but you wrote what I feel.

Without going into details, I too belong to a groups of people affected by inequality and injustice. I am white. It took a friend who also belongs to this group of people to set me straight. He is a black man in his 60s. He taught me to take a global perspective on the history of inequality and injustice. He reminded me that there are many groups who have suffered mightily and individuals who have paid the ultimate price in their fight for justice. Civil rights workers, union organizers, farm workers rights, women's rights, children's rights, worker rights and on and on. He talked me out of my ineffective rage and anger of my own personal situation to work more effectively for justice because it is an ongoing struggle for so many - not just a single group.

I too disagree with the selection of Warren. But I would call it a mistake on Obama's part, not a fatal flaw. Obama has called upon us all to reach higher within ourselves. If only a fraction of that is achieved, that will go a long way toward our citizens recognizing and working for justice and equality for ALL. That would really be something!

knowledgeispwr, I think when we abandon stereotypes, which is such a poor substitute for real knowledge, we see that most of us cross various lines. As those lines blur - we can see that we are ALL in this together. That is what my friend taught me.
Best Wishes to you!

[Uzybone]

49. K&R

This board is littered with posts from the whiners and dividers. Glad to see another good sensible post about this issue.

[yardwork]

51. Arguments about "who has it worse" are harmful, divisive, and invariably uninformed.

I can't count the number of horrible threads and posts I've seen here on DU lately. It's disgraceful and it plays right into the hands of the corporatist patriarchal majority.

I'm certain that some of the posters who are stirring this are not who they say they are. This post will probably be deleted - fine with me. I'm putting it out there.

[Lex]

58. and those arguments are irrelevant

because it simply doesn't matter who had it/has it worse in the larger struggle for equality for all

[AZBlue]

52. So I guess you win then, huh?

That was a sarcastic comment pointed at the inane contests on DU on who has it worse.

In seriousness, thank you for posting your perspective. I don't think anyone should be put into a little box - I may be a white straight woman, but I bet I can find 10 other white straight women on this board right now with which I have very little in common (other than our Democratic leanings). We're all different and we should acknowledge and honor those differences and learn from them.

[knowledgeispwr]

54. If I win, I don't want the prize!

haha! Seriously though, you're right about commonalities: A few common labels doesn't mean your actual life, ideas, experiences or opinions are the same as those who share those labels. We are complex entities and all little boxes do is deny how complex we are.

How dull would life be if we were as simple as our labels?

[Hekate]

55. KnR

:kick:

[HillWilliam]

56. Hearty recommend and kick

It's hard enough for any of us just to get taken for our own suchness. When it comes down to it, none of us really fits into a neat box. My partner and I often get written off on first glance as just a couple of typical rednecks.

Ugh.

We're reasonably educated, liberal, and yes, gay.

The covers on any of these GLBT books can be deceiving, yet the right would love to tie a bow on the lot of us, then slice and dice.

Wonderful post and I hope it keeps going. Knowledge is power. So is love.

We may not have chosen the gender we come to love as a partner, but we can chose to love our wide and beautiful community despite those who would chose to divide us.

[comrade snarky]

57. Well said

I've been avoiding these threads because of the pointless sniping but I was curious enough to read your post and hear your perspective.

I'm glad I did.

This straight white guy agrees with you completely. So many of us still look at each other and find a group to fit the other person into. A label we can put on each other so we fit into neat little bunches. It's easier than thinking I guess. Maybe that's human nature, I don't know anymore. We do it almost as much as the right wingers. God knows I've done it in the past. I need to work on that.

[Number23]

59. knowledgeispwr, this is the single BEST POST I've read on DU easily this year

Beautifully written, intelligent, thoughtful... you should be so proud of yourself.

I realize this post is rather eclectic, but suppose my point is that much of the conversation ignores those of us whose identities spread across various lines.

Any issue that delves into the human condition is EXPECTED to be complex, convoluted, and yes, eclectic. It was this very eclecticism that was missing during the foolish "with us or against us" battles raging so ridiculously on this site over the past few weeks. As a black, heterosexual woman, I too have been disgusted and dismayed by the commentary here of late. It's unfortunate that even during this historic time, old habits (and scapegoats) still arise.

I hope to see more of your perspective soon. Thanks so much for this post.

[akbacchus_BC]

60. Excellent post. K&R .... n/t

[boppers]

61. K&R, eom

[stillcool]

65. I don't fit in a box either...

I'm full of contradictions, and have yet to find a blanket solution that fits any problem. The only label I try on that seems to fit, says 'human being'. Everyone likes to have their own dog to kick and that seems to be a lot of what the label throwers are all about.

[mt13]

70. wonderfully...

put. K&R.

[Divine Discontent]

71. tried to give you a 50th rec, past it's time, so I'll kick! glad to see a black gay speak out

we are more than just our color, our sexuality, our job, our gender, etc... but it is disheartening when you feel you're being ignored or that you can be one, but not another. I am a Christian who is gay, so I get rejected often. Loved seeing your post...

Blessings to you for a great new year! I pray for a super competent Democratic President! What a way to forget the 8 years of hell B*sh and Dick and their daily scandals...

[knowledgeispwr]

73. Thank you for your thoughts and I agree.

Each one of us is complex, that's what makes us human. I too pray that we have competent leadership and that we really start moving in the right direction. I hold no illusions that all or any of our problems will be solved quickly, but I do hope we're heading on the right track.