OK everyone, simmer down and have patience.

[Kablooie]

People are getting all hot and steamed, pro and con, over Obama's plans, actions and policies already.

HE'S NOT PRESIDENT YET PEOPLE!

Everything he's doing right now is simply preparing to be president. Not BEING president.

George W. Bush is still president and everything that is happening right now is still being
run by his administration.

Sure he's made cabinet and staff picks and has given some indication of his plans but no one really
knows what his decisions will be until he makes them.

I'm expecting a flurry of decisions that will take your breath away in the first weeks.
(or at least take the Republican's breath away, I hope.)

Once Obama is actually in the position to make decisions, then you can start pontificating but right
now all we can really do right now is watch, take Pepto Bismol, and wait patiently for the flurry to begin.

[Zodiak]

1. I am of the mind

...that Presidential decisions start with nominating people for cabinet positions...and of course a restructuring of the party apparatus.

These decisions are subject to criticism just like any other.

When is the best time to speak up...when the wheels start in motion, or when you have already been run over?

What I am trying to say is that with a LOT of people, the excuse that he is not President yet seems like a dodge...not a logical argument. Decisions are being made, and many of us know that the time to strike is when the metal is hot...not when it is cooled and immutable.

[merh]

10. Because you are of the mind means the rest of us should just go along?

I am of the mindset that Obama will be the man in charge. It is not who he appoints that will make the difference but how they will do their job in implementing his policies.

Since he has not yet made policy, I can't get all worried about what the appointees have or have not done.

I've read his books, I watched how he ran his campaign, I don't doubt that he wants to do what is right for all of America. He will make mistakes, he is only human. I'm willing to wait until he gets into office before I bitch about what he has done or hasn't done. And he offers so much more than what we had.

He cannot do it all and we need to continue to demand the representation from congress. They are the branch that have ignored us over the last 2 years (if not longer), we need to focus our anger and frustrations where they belong. To the branch that writes the laws and is the representative body formed under our democratic republic.

[Zodiak]

27. Excuse me....but where did I say everyone should go along with my thoughts?

You will find that projection gets you nowhere in a discussion. Nor do straw-men.

You think personalities mean nothing and everyone will follow Obama to the letter of his word? I have seen no evidence of that at all, but if that is what your prognosticate will happen, I suppose you are entitled to that opinion.

However, for those of us that are not 100% certain prognosticators who place no value on past performance or personality, we see potential problems and we voice our opinions about it.

The problem comes in when the 100% prognosticators that have faith in Obama decide that they do not like the critics and accuse them of "hate, "whining", "knee-jerk poutrage" or any number of other things that 100% prognosticators are sure of people they have never met.

And policy is being made.....what do you think the stimulus package is? There are debates about this issue, you know. By Jan 20th, a lot of those policy decisions will be made...and the time for input will have be over. Is that the only time to speak up? Not for a lot of us...and you will have to get used to that.

Regardless of what you feel to be the dividing line between "can complain" and "can't complain", people will set their own rules for that. I have no problem with it UNLESS a person demands that those who do not follow their rules shut up....whether through bullying, open entreaties to shut up, censorship, etc.

I have seen way too many attempts at all of these things against Obama's critics as of late (many of which, myself included, were/are ardent supporters). It is unhealthy for this community, doesn't advance discussion, and frankly, chases a lot of good people away.

[merh]

29. Please reread your reply.

It is you that is doing all things you object to - you may want to practice what you preach. A lecture such as your's in response to my opinion serves what purpose but to bully and chastise me for the posts of others.

My opinion should be as protected as your's - disagree all you like. Attacking me and blaming me for all that is wrong with this board is childish and rather petty given that grey image by your name.

[Zodiak]

31. You present no evidence..I wrote it, so I know what I said.

I even re-read it before my first reply.

Address what is in my post instead of referring to it vaguely. I am not a swami, and cannot predict what exactly is your big objection. What exactly did I say that made you think "he is telling me that I have to think exactly like him!". This is what you accused me of openly....it's your post title.

I didn't ask anyone to think in lock-step with me, so your original accusation is false. You, of course, never addressed this rebuttal. Just reasserted it. Argument by repetition is a logical fallacy. Where is your evidence?

I am familiar with the technique of the vague response to duck out of an argument, too. Be specific....where did I demand everyone thinks exactly like me?

And do not confuse a little rhetoric of pointing out how silly I think some behavior is as an entreaty to fall in line. there is a difference between rhetoric and an outright demand.

I am finding your method of argumentation very hard to follow. Either you are doing this on purpose as a form of sophistry or you need to familiarize yourself with good rhetorical technique (as free of fallacy as possible). It would make you more effective, and less vulnerable to someone who knows what they are doing.

[merh]

32. You seem to be mistaken.

My post in reply to your post to the OP, the #1 post in the thread, was simply a question followed by my opinion, an opinion which happens to differ greatly from your opinion.

Because you are of the mind means the rest of us should just go along?

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't a question an inquiry and not a statement of fact? I didn't post a leading question or a trick question like "when did you stop beating your wife?". I merely questioned whether you think because you believe one way the rest of us should follow. That is not an accusation.

Had I said "I resent like hell you telling us what to think." that would have been the accusation you were looking for.

Then you have the nerve to accuse me of using tactics that have made others leave while using those tactics in your reply to me. You have tried to shut me down and have belittled my logic and ability to reason.

And you close this out with your attacks on my style of posting as if you have some greater ability. That is not sign of reasoned debate and you know it.

Like I said, you may want to practice what you preach. Allow others to post their opinions and don't try to bully them or belittle them. Set an example.

[madwivoter]

2. Thanks for posting.

This place is like a train wreck, I want to look away but I can't.

I can't believe the "What's the worst... cabinet pick/announcement he made/thing he said/thing he didn't say/person he "dissed" today" posts. Ugh.

We have 11 days to go. Obviously everyone can and will say whatever they want, but can't we think about rallying behind Obama at some point?

[Kablooie]

39. People are just reacting as if O was in control and they don't like what they see.

But he isn't calling the shots until the 20th.
Bushies still run things until them.

Once he actually is in control I expect things to shift dramatically and fast.

[OwnedByFerrets]

3. This is what concerns me more than anything....when you

surround yourself with people who are NOT progressive, their perspective takes front and center stage. It has to be very hard to get any progressive thoughts through to BO.

[Kablooie]

37. I can understand your concern but O's leadership is what will shape things. Not his staff.

[liberal N proud]

4. Not all criticism is a bad thing

However, I personally have not seen anything Obama has done YET to get overly concerned about. What ever he does has to be polar opposite of the last 8 years policies.

[Sebastian Doyle]

11. How is it the "polar opposite"

Wall Street Whores running the economy is the polar opposite of Wall Street Whores running the economy?

PNAC traitors running foreign policy is the polar opposite of PNAC traitors running foreign policy?

Tom Vilsuck, Monsanto shill is the polar opposite of Ed Schafer, Monsanto shill?

Robert Gates is the polar opposite of....... Robert Fucking Gates???


Where are all these polar opposites? :shrug:

[Terran]

16. Who exactly, in the Obama admin, is a "PNAC traitor"?

If you can name one person in the new admin who is a signatory to the PNAC, you may just change my mind seriously. And don't say Hilary Clinton.

[Sebastian Doyle]

19. Guess you missed this thread?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8067572

[Terran]

26. I did miss that.

I am not pleased, to say the least.

[Critters2]

30. Richard Holbrooke?!!! It just gets worse and worse!

:mad:

[Lyric]

5. "HE'S NOT PRESIDENT YET PEOPLE!"

That's what's being said right now.

Then it'll be, "IT'S ONLY BEEN A FEW MONTHS, PEOPLE!"

Then, "HE'S ONLY BEEN PRESIDENT A YEAR, PEOPLE!"

And then, "IT TOOK BUSH EIGHT YEARS TO FUCK AMERICA UP, LET'S GIVE OBAMA FOUR TO FIX IT PEOPLE!"

Annnnnnd then, "GIVE IT A REST, HE HAS TO WIN A SECOND TERM TO GET ANYTHING DONE PEOPLE!!!"

Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnd then, "SIMMER DOWN, HE CAN'T DO ANYTHING TOO CONTROVERSIAL OR HE'LL FUCK IT UP FOR THE MIDTERMS, PEOPLE!!"

And finally, "HIS TERM IS ALMOST OVER, BUT IF WE WANT THE NEXT DEM TO WIN, HE HAS TO PLAY IT COOL RIGHT NOW PEOPLE!!!!"

And then we'll get a new Dem elected, and the cycle will begin again.

"HE/SHE'S NOT PRESIDENT YET, PEOPLE!"

*sigh*

[Terran]

6. Please note

that Obama faces bigger challenges as President than anyone since FDR. And that doesn't even include the ravening packs of wingnuts he'll have nipping at his heels for the next four years. I for one will cut him some slack if he can't get to my personal little agenda right away.

And there is, nevertheless, a BIG difference between being President-Elect and being President.

[Lyric]

7. My personal agenda isn't "little."

I'm sorry that yours is.

And I am well aware of the challenges he faces. I am also aware that he isn't going to do anything that we don't "make" him do, and we CAN'T "make" him do anything unless people stop telling us to STFU and "give him a break," and instead of nannying at us, JOIN us.

But that's never going to happen. That much has become increasingly clear.

[Terran]

12. oh good god, lighten up

"little agenda" was perhaps a failed attempt at sarcasm. I take this stuff seriously, not only for my own part, but that of my country and my planet. I'm just as concerned as the next person. I think what I take issue with here lately is what's implied in your own statement:

I am also aware that he isn't going to do anything that we don't "make" him do...

I believe this is wrong; I believe Obama is different. He seems to have disappointed SO many people here already into believing that he's just like every other politican ever elected, and the whole reason we elected him was just a load of crap. It's clear from your post above that this what you believe. Well sorry, I'm not ready to lose faith in a man who isn't even in office yet.

And I will never tell anyone here to STFU. Dissent is good, but it has to be accompanied by reason and yes, patience.

[Skittles]

15. how about you get a clue?

[Terran]

17. I respect you Skittles but your post is meaningless

To have a "clue" in this context means you can predict the future. I'm just tired of people wrapping up the Obama Administration and basically saying he'll be no better than Bush before he's had a chance to do anything. Such behavior lacks rationality, IMO.

[Skittles]

25. that is not what they are "basically saying"

and if you had a clue you'd know that

[Terran]

28. I beg to differ, because it amounts to the same thing.

Several people here have essentially declared a total lack of confidence/trust in the Obama Administration before it's even off the ground. No one here had any trust in the Bush administration; so yes, it's the same thing, for those people who choose to take that road. I imagine a lot of them will change their minds in the future, but for now that's where they are.

And BTW, I know it's your "thing" to be all gruff and shit, but gruffness doesn't amount to anything in particular, and neither does insulting me.

[Lyric]

18. It's hard for me to lighten up.

The "make him do it" thing comes from the myriad of threads posted here, all saying that in effect, Obama wants us to "make" him do things. I'm not sure where the reference comes from--I don't know if it's something he actually *said*, or if it's someone that another politician said and Obama referenced it, etc. I do know that it hurts like hell on a personal level to constantly be told to wait, have patience, give him a chance. We've heard that for so many years, so many hurtful, hurtful years. I don't want to have to wait any longer to be treated like an equal human being under the law, among other important things.

What kills me--freaking KILLS me--is that if Bush hadn't fucked the economy up this badly, we might have actually had a chance at gaining equality sooner rather than later. As it is, thanks to Bush, we'll be waiting in line yet again. That hurts. Badly. If that hurt comes out in my posts, well, like Obama, I am only human.

[Terran]

20. I understand

I'm gay too, if you didn't know, and I'm almost 50, been partnered for 23 years. I've had a long time to stew about my second-class citizenship, and all my economic rights denied, especially as I get closer to retirement and social security issues. If I die, my partner can't have my SSI survivor benefits, and that's what pisses me off the most, not the principle of equality itself.

Not to go cliche on you, but I feel your pain--it *does* hurt. I guess that's why I want to believe so much in Obama, be cause I feel he truly has it in him to do something to help us, and others who need help for different reasons. He's not a messiah...but I have to keep faith that he's better than other men who have held that office.

:hug: Sorry for "lighten up" comment, that was rude of me.

[merh]

21. Join you in doing what exactly?

Using all caps when complaining on a message board?

I've asked and others have asked what is being done to make your voices heard and how we can help in those efforts. I've gotten no response.

I searched and found other sites that actually require some action, that involve doing more than just bitching at DU and creating divides that are not just and are not fair. I posted a thread with the information I found and asked others to contribute by giving other ways to get the message out. That thread got very little attention.

I've read posts asking for others to actively participate in efforts involving GLBT issues that went unnoticed and that includes unnoticed by members of DU's GLBT community.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=4780981

Join you in what? How many letters have you sent to Obama at his hotel or to the transition office? How many protests have been had to exercise the free speech rights that will help get the message out? Will there be protests and marches that we can join you in? When will they be had, where will they happen, will you attend?

Code Pink is sending white roses to Obama at his hotel as a call for Peace "harkening back to the White Rose Society—the WWII non-violent resistance group in Germany." https://salsa.democracyinaction.org/o/424/shop/custom.jsp?donate_page_KEY=4423

Does the GLBT community have anything like this we can donate to or get involved in?

As many talented and intelligent members on this board yet no idea has been posted that reflects something is actively done, that requires active participation and true effort. DUers can do things when they put their mind to it, money has been raised for sick and troubled DUers, roses sent to Helen Thomas and Barbara Boxer. The telephone lines at congress have been so tied up they stopped using the toll free number for a time.

What do you want DUers to do to join you?

99% are against Warren and for same sex marriages and justice and civil rights for all, they will join you if you tell them how you want them to. How do you want to be heard? By posting in all caps on a message board and by creating divides and ill will or by actively doing something?

Please tell us, decide something and I will help in any way I can. I will help to keep your thread alive and I will donate and write letters and send emails and help keep make noise beyond DU.

Join you how?

[Dawgs]

23. Your personal agend is not small, but there are many agendas.

And you have no idea when he will get to yours, so quit making up shit.

[Skittles]

14. oh, count on it

absolutely

[leftstreet]

24. That's exactly how it will go

x(

[Kablooie]

36. Don't agree with you. He WILL be president on the 20th.

And I don't expect him to be a Bush-like leader but I do expect him to be controversial.
If he actually makes decisions, they will be terribly controversial because the situations
are so dire.

The curtain hasn't opened and the show hasn't started.
It will soon.

[Bluenorthwest]

8. Simmer down?!?!?

I was raised to ACT-UP, so you are way off my beam. I'll do things my way, thanks. I will recommend that if your goal is a respectful silence, you could start by being the change you wish to see.

[Kablooie]

35. I'm sure there will be lots of things to heat people up once O is in the hot seat.

It just seems a little premature to judge him yet.
In a little over a week there will be plenty to evaluate and with
all the problems he faces there's no way he will satisfactorily
solve all of them right away. And some of them require dramatic
solutions which are just the kinds of things that create controversy.

It's going to be a bumpy ride but why complain about the bumps when
the roller coaster hasn't even left the station.

[Sebastian Doyle]

9. You don't think his cabinet picks give any indication of his plans?

For instance, do you think a foreign policy team dominated by PNACe'rs and neocons are going to get us out of Iraq, Afghanistan, or tell Israel to knock off this bullshit they're pulling in Gaza?

Do you think another group of Wall Street whores are going to reverse 28 years of economic policies that have raped and pillaged this country to the benefit of the top 1% ?

These people are known quantities and they are not good ones. To expect different from them than what they have done all their lives is illogical. Not to sound Vulcan or anything, but it just is. :evilfrown:

[Kablooie]

38. Not really. How he leads and uses the cabinet is what will count.

[Skittles]

13. this is a POLITICAL BOARD

we'll get hot and steamed WHENEVER WE FUCKING FEEL LIKE IT

[Kablooie]

33. Yes you can. And I can request people to simmer down whenever I feel like it.

So there.

[polichick]

22. Yet ANOTHER post telling people how they should post...

What exactly do you think a message board is for?!

[Kablooie]

34. Message boards are mainly for instructions on posting etiquette aren't they?