The Religous Right

[RogueTrooper]

What's happened? Why have the religous right suddenly invaded the UK? These hate filled cretins is one thing but now the Catholic Church seemed to have joined the party.

I am starting to get a little worried. Anybody else?

[chicagojoe]

1. Don't worry about them.

They'll get back in line when they see that their "power" doesn't really exist. Fuckin' pedophile priests ought to be enough to shut 'em down.

[RogueTrooper]

2. Not so sure about that

people in the US have been saying "don't worry about them" or "just ignore them, they will go away" for decades. I would rather give them a good kicking to be honest. Just not sure how to go about administring the chastisment.

[delhurgo]

4. People here don't wanna hear it, but imo the reason

the 'religious right' has so much influence now is because liberalism has become so discredited, because it has moved too far left. They, the RR, has attached themselves to the republican party, which has a more popular stance on issues of taxes and Defense, and some others - issues that really have nothing to do with the RR's moral agenda. And because the Democrats/liberals are weaker now, and because voters like the Republicans more on the big issues, the religious right benefits - sort of by accident.

So, its not because that most people agree with them that they have such influence, its because the other side (the secular liberals) have become so weak - at least here in the U.S.. Democrats need to evolve beyond the big govt, politically correct, tax and spend,... philosophy of the past, and they will become the majority once again - secularism will too as a result and the RR's influence will fade. That would cause Republicans to change as well.

Or something like that.

[blogbear]

3. Is There Really Anything New About The Oliver Cromwell Type?

Anyone who knows true history knows that religious personalities have been persecuting and causing problems for thousands of years. I'm not suggesting that spirituality is always bad or that religious oranizations and individuals cannot often be helpful. But I am saying that power unchecked whether in the hands of a politician or cleric (or anyone else for that matter) can be a dangerous thing. I'm also saying that the marriage of church and state has been a devastating thing because history has shown before that too much power that way has most always led to horrible abuse.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

5. Too much power always worries about itself rather than others....

thereby setting the stage for horrible abuse and creative excuses for things done in its name. Presidential approved torture comes to mind... as well as bunker busting civilian areas because "Saddam is here and Saddam is there".... not to mention white phosphorous and gas in Fallujah, cluster bombs in Hilla, incendiary devices in Basra, 30mm cannons used on people, and lying to the world in order to take over a nations economy.

Paul Bremer, an errand boy for a mob of corporate greed.
http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/19293/
The Handover That Wasn't

By Antonia Juhasz, Foreign Policy in Focus. Posted July 20, 2004.

>>Before his departure, CPA chief Paul Bremer issued 100 Orders to dramatically restructure Iraq's economy to fit free-market ideals. And no Iraqi, including future elected officials, can undo them.<<

>>Order #39 allows for the following: (1) privatization of Iraq's 200 state-owned enterprises; (2) 100 percent foreign ownership of Iraqi businesses; (3) "national treatment" of foreign firms; (4) unrestricted, tax-free remittance of all profits and other funds; and (5) 40-year ownership licenses. Thus, it allows the U.S. corporations operating in Iraq to own every business, do all of the work, and send all of their money home. Nothing needs to be reinvested locally to service the Iraqi economy, no Iraqi need be hired, no public services need be guaranteed, and workers' rights can easily be ignored. And corporations can take out their investments at any time.

Order #40 turns the banking sector from a state-run to a market-driven system overnight by allowing foreign banks to enter the Iraqi market and to purchase up to 50 percent of Iraqi banks.

Order #49 drops the tax rate on corporations from a high of 40 percent to a flat rate of 15 percent. The income tax rate is also capped at 15 percent.

Order #12 enacted on June 7, 2003 and renewed on February 24, 2004, suspends "all tariffs, customs duties, import taxes, licensing fees and similar surcharges for goods entering or leaving Iraq, and all other trade restrictions that may apply to such goods." This led to an immediate and dramatic inflow of cheap consumer products, which has essentially wiped out all local providers of the same products. This could have significant long-term implications for domestic production as well.<<

[blogbear]

8. Amen!

[tjwmason]

6. It's at times like this that we should be thankful for the C.ofE.

Even though more people attend R.C. Mass on a Sunday than the Church of England; nonetheless it is still seen as the archetype of religion in England. Although it does contain plenty of conservatives, I have yet to meet one which is even half-way towards the American far-right loons (and I've met plenty of them too).

We do have growing ultra-conservative religious groups (ironically given that they're conservative, they're generally brand-new bodies), but they're tiny when compared with more established and open bodies.

Also, I think that most English people find the thought of extremism itself distasteful which would certainly mitigate the effects.

[non sociopath skin]

15. Not sure I'd feel that way if I were gay, tjwm...

... in middle age, I'm trying (unsuccessfully, I fear) to avoid coming to the conclusion that all organised religion is inherently conservative and misanthropic.

The Skin

[tjwmason]

20. The Church of England is not a monolithic unity

It is perhaps the most diverse religious body on the planet.

You do realise that gay marriages are celebrated in many parish churches? Just to take one example.

Even among some of the highly conservative elements the hatred demonstrated by the American religious-right is totally absent. I know of several C.ofE. Priests whose theological views are ultra-traditional, but who don't bat an eyelid at gay couples (of whom there are a goodly number in the congregation).

[T_i_B]

7. The abortion debate in the UK...

...is on nothing like the level of the US (which I for one am only too happy about as I don't have much time for the pro-life or pro-choice camps). Indeed it's noticable just how few votes the Pro-Life Alliance get.

Why Howard is trying to raise abortion as an election issue is something I do not know. The UK is a very irreligious society so it's not a priority at all for most people in my experience.

Plus the Church in my experience is more concerned about other things. Top of the list of political concerns I hear about in Church is the government's gambling bill, which we are very worried about. In many Churches (including my own) fair trade is a big issue. Abortion is not anything like as far up the list of concerns over here as it is in the US.

[D-Notice]

9. He's probably been told by Karl Rove

that as it's a vote-winner in the US it might work over here...

[D-Notice]

10. From the BBC

Abortion not a poll issue - Blair

So in other words it WILL become an election issue...

[Guy_Montag]

17. That's what I think

that the Tories have seen how well the repubs did in the US by playing the religious card. I think this was maybe testing the water to see how the voters would react, if it looked popular we would see much more of this sort of thing.

[D-Notice]

21. Hmm...

From the Guardian:A lying politician.. who'd have thought?

[fedsron2us]

11. We do not do God

Alistair Campbell may be a cynical bastard but he knows the British electorate.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/05/04/nblair04.xml

An one who thinks that these issues can simply be imported into the UK from the USA and played as a major vote winner at an election just does not understand this country. There is simply no major religious bloc vote to be captured even in the Muslim community. Since abortion is traditionally a 'free vote' issue where MP's are allowed to vote according to conscience rather than being whipped along party lines I can not see the Cardinals pronouncement having much impact.

In passing I can not help noticing that many of the anti-abortion activists I see in the UK seem to speak with American accents. It seems that they struggle to find enough native enthusiasts for their cause.

[LeftishBrit]

12. I don't think it will work here like in America

We're far less of a churchgoing nation. I think less than 10% actually attend church regularly, though rather more go for Christmas, Easter and other special occasions. And wearing your religious heart on your sleeve is not nearly as socially acceptable - even in a church context - in the UK as in some other countries.

There have always been some individual politicians who go in for this sort of thing. Our MP when I was a child (early 70s) was a real crusader for Sunday observance, and against gambling, pornography and all kinds of Sin. He also presented the Religious Education prizes at our school, which is probably why I remember him. But I don't think people like that had, or will have, huge influence in the country as a whole.

I fear that there are some people, here as elsewhere, who will use 'religious values' as a cover for what is really racism. But I don't think the Christian right as such is going to make big headway here.

[tjwmason]

14. Not only do fewer of us go to church

(though I am in that minority). But in those churches there is little by way of politics, the concept of a 'voter-guide' being given by the local Vicar would make most church-goers laugh heartily. Simply put neither those in the churches, nor most of the churches themselves, are that interested in swaying votes.

[T_i_B]

16. The Church's official policy

only tells people how to vote to the extent of condemming the BNP. However, the official policy of the Church is to encourage people to get out and vote, it's just that with the exception of discouraging the BNP the Church does not tell you who to vote for.

That's a policy that is 100% OK with me. The only thing we really need to do at election time is encourage people to vote, and maybe for Churches to organize public debates between local candidates open to all.

But as for the Church endorsing a particular party, that would be a bad idea without doubt.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

13. They do seem to be coming out of the woodwork

I was quite amused at the way evangelical groups campaigned against Jerry Springer: The Opera despite none of them actually had seen it.

The Europeans are different from most Americans when it comes to morality. There's one thing that Europeans despise and it's being lectured on issues of morality, not least by churches and politicians who aren't exactly perfect themselves.

I don't think abortion is going to be a vote-winner for anybody in the U.K.

[RogueTrooper]

18. A bit worried myself

They do seem to be quite well organised and fairly media savvy. I would not be surprised if hate mongers, like Christian Voice are recieving money and expertise from their comrades in the US.

[mr blur]

19. Salman Rushdie in The Guardian,

"The exception to European secularism can be found in Britain, or at least in the government of the devoutly Christian and increasingly authoritarian Tony Blair, which is presently trying to steamroller parliament into passing a law against "incitement to religious hatred"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1436883,00.html