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Can someone here PLEASE help me regarding the 2004 election fraud?

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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 07:12 PM
Original message
Can someone here PLEASE help me regarding the 2004 election fraud?
I believe the election was stolen.

Can someone here please tell me why the specific mechanism of fraud hasn't been uncovered yet?

Is it the major media who aren't picking up the killer story showing the fraud mechanism, or is there no killer story?

If there is a killer story showing the fraud mechanism, what is it?

If there is no killer story uncovering election fraud, please tell me why you think the story hasn't been uncovered yet?

Mostly I'm wondering what the status is of finding the smoking gun for election fraud. Why hasn't anything major happened yet?
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
1. This was posted today about it
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KerryReallyWon Donating Member (297 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
2. Lawsuits are pending, must use that course of action...
and there is a "media blackout" on the subject...if you have not heard of these tactics...google operation mockingbird.. you will learn the CIA has been doing this since 47 and blair has done it in great britian as well with the pedophile case...involving Pete Townsend of the Who.
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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. what does Pete Townshend have to do with this?
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 07:46 PM
Response to Original message
3. There were many avenues that accounted for the various types
of fraud, including the aggregators at the link posted.

There was also massive, organized, nearly overwhelming voter suppression, intentional vote spoilage, and so much more.



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Stevepol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 08:18 PM
Response to Original message
4. The reason there's no smoking gun is nobody's allowed to see it.
The touchscreens can't be audited and the scanners and other DREs are almost never audited. So there's no way to prove anything. That's why so little progress. The only way to show fraud is thru the pre-election polls and even more the exit polls, along w/ the evidence of ancillary fraud like voter suppression, felon lists, etc. etc. Steven Freeman, as you probably know, has done a very good analysis of the results in some of the critical states, showing the "impossibility" that the differences between the exit polls and the alleged "actual results" happened by chance. There's much evidence of malfeasance on the part of Diebold, et al.

The best approach is to insist w/ everybody you meet or talk to every time this is discussed that to allow votes to be counted "in secret" by rabid partisans and ideologues in one political party is certainly un-democratic and immoral and illegal as well. All evidence points to fraud in my opinion. Kerry won the election by a comfortable margin, probably about 5,000,000 votes. He certainly won Ohio and almost certainly FL as well.
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Amaryllis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. And he won NM and NV and a lot more popular vote in many states that
what the results showed.
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Amaryllis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. And the tabulators can't be audited, either. If there'd been an audit in
OH of the tabulators, Kerry most likely would have won. Arnebeck said he had prima facie evidence of 65,000 votes being shifted from Kerry to Bush.This alone would have won Kerry the election.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 02:30 AM
Response to Reply #4
17. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 09:05 PM
Response to Original message
6. Thanks for the replies!!!!!!!!!!!
Good info!
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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 09:16 PM
Response to Original message
7. Here's what bothers me...
I think there is ample evidence that the system is designed with little or no regulatory standards or oversight and with a view toward _facilitating_ fraud. THAT should be the story!

It would seem to me that rather than focusing on the alteration of back end databases that most people don't have a clue about (even when demonstrated on national TV), or trying to prove that there was outright hacking, tampering and switching of vote totals by altering the proprietary source code locked behind the doors of trade secrecy (which even fewer people know or care anything about), the focus should be on reporting to the public how poorly designed the system is based on the _human_ factors. Because of this, you can steal an election without ANY help from hackers and malicious programmers at all. I.e., you don't need a Clint Curtis to do it; you can set it up so the voters do it for you -- because the software allows it. So while Curtis' story is interesting and may lead to an investigation, it may also be a huge diversion.

The proprietary source code is another red herring. Sure it would be nice for impartial experts (if you can find any nowadays) to look at the code, but you don't need a master mechanic or the engineers who designed your car to tell you that your speedometer is broken and your brakes are shot, do you?

This is where I think we MAY be missing the boat. If I'm wrong, I'd be the first one to admit it.
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Nictuku Donating Member (907 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Plan B
I think we all need to come up with a Plan B, should Real Election Reform not occur. I hate to say it, it sickens my heart, but it seems very doubtful a thing to come to pass, given the Republican controlled House and Senate.

I feel that with rigged elections, it is nothing less than taxation without representation. This is very serious. I'm an environmentalist, but nothing else matters as far as debate and discussion goes, if the elections are rigged. Our 'Self-correcting Democracy' is broken. And it won't self-correct (get ready for Jeb in 2008)

So......, if the elections are rigged, (and I believe with every fiber in me that they were), and the Media is owned, how can we prove it to the masses (which will be the only salvation, after all, this government is supposed to receive its power from We The People.

Here is the problem: MSM is owned. MSM has bought the 'Exit Polls'. They deny its release (until 'weighted') to the public.

Is there any law against Citizens forming their own 'Exiting Polling System'?

(I'll be shocked if there is..)

So, I don't have enough posts to start a thread, but if I could, I would start one asking for ideas on how we can create a Citizen's Exit Polling Network, so that if they try to do it again in 2006, we have /something/ that we can engage the masses with, showing them that something is wrong in Kansas...

We need to get started on this now. The clock is ticking.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 02:33 AM
Response to Reply #10
18. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 03:36 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. The younger people did come
out and vote, The young people KICKED ASS.We the people let the young people down,CENTRAL TABULATORS let the young people down,but they won't the next time. I hope the young people give us another chance to fix the problem.
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 09:56 PM
Response to Original message
11. SolarBus can help
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 10:27 PM
Response to Original message
12. No
"Mostly I'm wondering what the status is of finding the smoking gun for election fraud. Why hasn't anything major happened yet?"

Cuz we never found out who killed JFK, RFK, MLK.
Cuz Ronald Reagan was a joke.
Cuz George Bush is the punch line.
Cuz everyone's afraid.




:hi:
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Nixon resigned
:shrug:
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. OK-- I'll see yer Tricky Dick and raise you one Negroponte.
"Nixon resigned" rather than be impeached.
Raygun reportedly was not impeached for Iran/Contra becuz he was "too likeable" and popular with Americans
Clinton was impeached because "he lied" (and stained a dress)
Bush is totally unaccountable for all of his lies (and caused countless deaths)

In the process of resolving these voter reform issues, one strategy would be to focus on what CRIMES have been committed. This could be an effective way to reach people where they live (blue and red alike).

Also, to focus on the CORPORATE aspect of ownership of the companies that manufacture, service and operate the voting machines and CRONYISM with the Bush gang. The public can understand that as well as a stained blue dress.


:evilgrin:
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Look Pal.
You want me to slit my wrists!!!

I hear ya. I'm so depressed about it all.

We're just doin' what we can.

Peace
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-19-05 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Chill Dude
No no no! I'm all fer positivity. Healthy to look at what we're facing, right?

Seems that the perceptions of the American people are an important part of the mix, eh? My suggestions for reaching them anticipate some folks not being convinced by mere facts.

:smoke:
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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #16
23. "My suggestions for reaching them anticipate some folks not being
convinced by mere facts."

I like that!
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Glad that went over--- (digital tongue in cheek)
We are dealing with a bamboozled public. Sometimes the facts and graphs and details and websites merge and flow into the brainwashing chatter and don't sink in........

:evilgrin:
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. "We are dealing with a bamboozled public." No, no, no...
We are dealing with a profoundly DISEMPOWERED public. They are not bamboozled. Look at the opinion polls! Huge disapproval of all major Bush policies, domestic and foreign, in the 60% to 70% range, and miserable Bush approval ratings since before the election. And look at the election itself--people voted to oust the Bush Cartel, quite likely by a landslide, despite all the B.S. they were getting from the news monopolies.

The majority cannot get its will enforced. THAT is the problem.

I think "bamboozled" might describe some people on the election fraud issue--but NOT on Iraq, Social Security or anything else. But this is a complex psychological matter, involving some of the voters, especially some of the most progressive voters, not being able to identify what the real problem is, and not being able to resist. Think of the battered wife syndrome: denial that the husband who beats her is an actor in the situation, believing she herself is the problem (she "causes" the beatings), not reacting to being beaten (believing that physical harm to herself is not the problem), and a consequent inability to resist or to oppose being beaten (by fleeing, and bringing charges).

Thus, the beatings can escalate to her death, because she cannot accept the truth of the situation--the most basic facts--and does not think she can change it. She may have tried to stop the beating in many different ways, none of them effective. She thinks that the situation--his power over her--is inevitable, is a given, and she cannot challenge that basic premise.

In other words, we're looking at a helplessness syndrome. So it's very, very, very difficult to get some people first of all to acknowledge what is happening with the election system, and then to do something about it. They have become too fatalistic. The ABUSED VOTER SYNDROME.

I've been thinking about this quite a lot, and, for a time, I believed that we were dealing with massive and quite literal brainwashing. And of course brainwashing is generally part of an abusive situation. But here we have a case where the brainwashing has not worked--incredibly. Opinion polls are overwhelmingly showing that most Americans oppose Bush and his policies, by very large percentages. Why aren't they doing something about it? Because one part of the brainwashing has worked, just this part--the message that you are powerless. (You voted. All your friends, family and co-workers voted. You did what you could. It didn't work. Now you are helpless.)

And, of course, part of feeling helpless is to altogether deny that you have been abused. If something so fundamental to your life as your marriage--your spouse, the father of your children, the person you fell in love with--is destroying you, it is extremely difficult to see out of that situation.

If something so fundamental as voting--the bedrock of our democracy, the foundation of our belief in ourselves as a people--is destroying us--this, too--like spousal abuse--is a situation that is extremely difficult to see out of.

The hopeful part is that a lot of women--and other battered people--ARE seeing out of it, are getting the message that the fundamental situation (of one person battering another) is wrong, and the situation of abuse must be changed. But it has taken a lot of time and education.

Now then. Consider this. Say this is a very rich couple, in which the husband is battering the wife. She brought a fortune with her, and her husband and members of his family have built a highly profitable business with it, and her family is heavily invested in it as well. And say it's a rightwing Christian media empire, pushing Christian marriage. A messy divorce would ruin everybody. So hubby and his family, and the battered wife's family, and all the couples' friends--who, of course, have been ignoring the many black eyes and other bruises--put enormous profit-motive pressure on the battered wife to "make her marriage work."

There you have the Democrats--who have bought into e-voting, with some of them being outright corrupt on that score, and some of them wanting the Christian marriage thing (war in the Middle East) to continue.

Is this crazy? Maybe a little bit. (I mean, Christian marriage=war in the Middle East? Har-har.) I just wanted to explore this problem of people knowing, in their gut, that something's very wrong--that Bush was not elected--yet feeling compelled to deny it, with the "helplessness syndrome" as the underlying reason why they feel so compelled. AND, why Democratic Party leaders would go along with Bush "Pioneers" counting all our votes in secret.

As with brainwashing, the cure is to encourage independent thinking (not to badger the brainwashed with your own opinions--gently, gently introduce facts). With the "helplessness syndrome," the cure is to encourage independent action (of a constructive kind).

As for the rich relatives who want "the marriage to work" because they are financially invested in it (many Democratic Party leaders and office holders), hard to figure what to do with them. But it is my hope that, through hard work on election reform at the local level, and through incremental victories toward a more and more transparent election system, we can change the Democratic Party and remove these corrupt and collusive leaders from power.






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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. The TV networks CHANGED the exit polls.
Edited on Sun Mar-20-05 02:32 PM by Peace Patriot
I keep thinking that this is the KEY THING that people need to be informed about.

In this egregiously non-transparent election system, the main verification tool we had was the exit polls--and the exit polls say Kerry won.

But this information was hidden from the American people. The TV networks CHANGED the exit polls that everybody was watching on their TV screens, late on election day; they adjusted that data (Kerry won) to fit the official tally (Bush won) coming from the Bush-partisan-controlled central electronic vote tabulators. They thus prevented large-scale objection to the results (as occured in the Ukraine), and, even more critically, large-scale official investigation. They fostered the PERCEPTION that Bush won, by hiding evidence that he had not.

Combine this bit of journalistic malfeasance with the lies about Iraq WMDs, and you have a strong basis for convincing people to profoundly distrust the news monopolies and to question their most fundamental assertions (for instance, that Bush won).

People need to know that their perception of things has been royally messed with. They KNOW this about Iraq and other issues. They DON'T KNOW IT about the election, because they don't know that the exit polls were changed (and because of their strong desire to believe in our democracy, which puts them into denial about such a fundamental thing as voting having gone so awry...leading to the "helplessness syndrome.")

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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. That's not bamboozlement? Okay, how bout "mindfucking"?
"The TV networks CHANGED the exit polls."
"But this information was hidden from the American people. The TV networks CHANGED the exit polls that everybody was watching on their TV screens, late on election day..."
"They fostered the PERCEPTION that Bush won, by hiding evidence that he had not."
Combine this bit of journalistic malfeasance with the lies about Iraq WMDs..."
"People need to know that their perception of things has been royally messed with."
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. Okay, how bout "mindfucking"?
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MissWaverly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #15
26. Don't quit now
They wouldn't be pushing Terri's right to life and coming in from their vacations if stuff wasn't about to hit the fan, everything from frauding the Indians and then trying to get them to buy term life, to grabbing money up from "foreign agents-lobbying groups" which is blatantly illegal. Step right up now, to get a front row seat for the fireworks.
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garybeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 02:54 AM
Response to Original message
19. everything is stalled in courts
if there was power of subpeona in some of the pending cases, we could crack open the voting machines. but judges are sitting on several cases, waiting to decide what to do.

there's a ton of evidence, not just in ohio. To anyone who looks at the facts, it's pretty obvious. If you want to see collections of articles and info on the evidence, there are several sites you can find by google. i'm partial to mine, http://election.solarbus.org but it's not the only one.

yes, the media is greatly repsonsible for making this a non-story and minsinforming the people. correction. lying to the people.

but the bottom line right at the current moment is that we need the power of subpeona to move foward with the investigations and the judges in the various cases seem to be taking a long time to decide.

We know very little about the GAO investigation but one can assume it's being stalled because the republicans control the gao.
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LatePeriduct Donating Member (660 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 05:11 AM
Response to Original message
21. My 2 cents.
The mechanism for election fraud was in two places.


The aggregators and the aggregators working with the tabulators.

Dirty tricks supressed registration across multiple states, but the real part we don't hear is what happens once they are put into the database and saved.

Programming code was abused creating a deceptive vote fraud software by Clint Curtis. And a bunch of programmers under the disguise of making better, faster, accurate registration possible corrupted it by using biased aggregators and having their partners sign off and write it into law in many states.
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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-05 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Thanks for the reply and welcome to DU!
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berniew1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-05 12:19 AM
Response to Original message
30. Apparently you haven't been paying attention to posts here
The problems with the 2004 election were large and have been documented, by the over 500,000 election irregularity incident reports to EIRS hotline, Common Cause hotline, county SOE complaint forms, TrueVoteMD reports, etc. plus the Ohio recount investigation.

Touchscreen vote switching was reported in 18 states(many counties), systematic dirty tricks and malfeasance/misfeasance of officials in over 25 states to reduce minority vote, manipulation of ballots and compilers in many counties of many states, minorities not allowed to vote in many counties of many states(too few machines and machines that did not work), manipulation of registrations, absentees, provisionals.

There have been statistical analyses by Univ. researchers that reached results consistent with the documentation of problems found in the election day irregularity reports.

The problem isn't that it isn't known how the election was rigged and swung. But that no one in position of authority want to do anything about the widespread fraud, malfeasance, illegal acts, and manipulation. And that includes the Dem Party leaders apparently.

Documentation:
http://www.flcv.com/summary.html
http://www.flcv.com/ussumall.html
http://www.flcv.com/studentv.html

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berniew1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-05 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. Here's documentation on a state that's pretty complete- Florida
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-05 03:45 AM
Response to Original message
32. They got
the courts,the government and the media stacked, thats why nothing major has happened yet.But we are getting there. NGU
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