My sincere apologies to all atheists here...

[Lerkfish]

I now understand that you find the term "belief" offensive.
I never intended any offense.
I will do my best to never use that term, in reference to atheists in the future.

but can you please suggest a differnt term to use for how you the lack of a diety as shared opinion amongst yourself? if it is not a belief, please tell me the politically correct term to use in future discussion.

thanks, and again, my apologies. No offense was intended.

[smoogatz]

1. Disbelief.

Was that so hard?

[Lerkfish]

2. nope.

I'll use that from now on, thanks.

[Zhade]

28. Still inaccurate.

I don't DISbelieve, I just lack a belief, the way I lack a blowhole.

[Lerkfish]

29. then would "nonbelief" be more accurate?

That's the serious part of the question.

the good natured joking part would be: then would "blowhole-less" be more accurate?

:silly:

[Zhade]

30. Yes, and yes.

You've got the idea.

[alittlelark]

3. I am in no way offended by those who have issues w/ Atheism.

I fully understand how difficult it is to 'break free'.... it was VERY painful for me.

[politicaholic]

4. I'm an Atheist and I don't find the word "belief" offensive...

any Atheist that tells you that word is in some way bad or offensive is just being a little too sensative.

[BlueJazz]

14. I agree...As an Atheist, it's never truly bothered me.

..Of course, like any thinking individual, I do take offense at calling Atheism a Religion.

[Zhade]

31. I just dislike hypocritical DUers defining my atheism for me.

A very few, very 'special' DUers, bless their little arrogant self-righteous hearts, don't seem to understand that the adults frown on that kind of behavior.

[toddaa]

5. You need to go one step further

In fact, a lot of people who have posted on these threads do. Much of it is misunderstanding, but I've witnessed a lot of arrogance on the part of theists who seem to suffer from the notion that they have a better understanding of what atheism is than atheists. So here's a little definition lesson.

There are two forms of atheism, positive and negative.

Positive atheism holds that there is no god. Negative atheism, on the other hand, simply posits that one does not believe in a god. Agnosticism is sometimes mistaken for negative atheism, but agnosticism's position is that god is unknowable, meaning that no conclusion is ever possible. Until everyone can appreciate the fact that atheists are a fairly diverse bunch (shocking that!), these discussions will continue to get bogged down in semantical pissing matches.

[The Doctor.]

7. Ahh, I could not have said it better. nt

[Lerkfish]

8. thanks.

but I would point out that I was not being arrogant in my other thread. In fact, my misdefinition of atheism was not even the point of the thread...the point was to examine the nature of belief, and I was just setting up the question, wrongly, I now see.

[VegasWolf]

15. Sorry, I don't view it as black or white. I see the belief/disbelief as

a spectrum. Very few people have either absolute faith in god
or absolute certainty that there is none. For years I simply
referred to my self as an agnostic simply because I thought that
absolute statements on either side were a little pompous and silly.
I realized that I was 99.99999999999999999999999999999999 % confident
that there was no god, therefore I simply stooped calling myself an
agnostic and began referring to myself as an atheist. I think
the true agnostic, one who harbors some real degree of uncertainty
is simply a middle ground in the spectrum. Thus, I simply see the
debate as a probability function.

[toddaa]

20. Words are symbols

They are mere abstractions. The word atheist really has no meaning as far as what a person believes. To be perfectly honest, the word "God" has absolutely no meaning to me so in some respect I'm neither an atheist nor a theist. The fact that I don't believe in a god, puts me firmly in the atheist camp, but it that really doesn't give you any clue as to what I do believe. Nothing is a good start. The Tao is nothing. Being comes from Nonbeing and so belief comes from nonbelief.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

25. Interesting.

I'm kind of going the other way.

I always used to assume that as there was no evidence for the existence of an omnipotent being, that meant that it was reasonable to assume there wasn't one, but I'm beginning to see the point behind Ludwig Wittgenstein's question "Yes, but what would it look like if the worlds went round the sun?"

Occam's razor is all very well, but there's no actual reason it should work... there perfectly well *could* be needless entities out there.

[Zhade]

32. Indeed, my friend. Indeed.

NT!

[The Doctor.]

6. Perhaps I am confused...

But I do not see how anyone might take the word 'belief' as an affront.

I am never concerned over what language I use in deference to anyone. This with the exception of deliberately offensive language, that is.

Should someone take offense - that is generally a reflection on them, not on the offender, again - unless the offense is deliberate and intentional... then it should be ignored.

I've been on both ends of this one.

As for atheists; I find there is a great deal of courage in the acknowledgement of our status as 'organic machines'.
Atheists tend to be either truly 'spiritually' courageous, or mortally depressed.

Those that have accepted the reality of oblivion yet continue to strive for a worthwhile and productive future are, in my humble opinion, quite spiritually heroic.

Think on that.

If you want to know how to be an atheist that believes in divinity - ask me.

{OE}- bad grammar and punct.

[toddaa]

10. Ooh, I'm not alone

I always figured atheism as the beginning of my search, not the end.

[The Doctor.]

12. If you don't mind an epiphany I came to

After I realized that much of religion was based on arrogance.

(I was a born-again Christian for a stint - so I know that 90% of them are just trying to be 'more special' than everyone else.)

Then think on this;


Should Humanity survive, and evolve to become masters of Time, Space, and Consciousness, (and whatever else we'll find)... then our descendants will achieve divinity.

I believe they will welcome their forebearers into the fold - after all... we have so much to share.

The only threat to our Human transcendance would be the fundamentalists bent on destroying us all.

Then we would face oblivion.

In which case... Who would care?

[YankeyMCC]

9. To me it isn't the word

it's the context it is usually used in which is an attempt to equate the fact that I have no belief in god somehow makes me part of a religious group along with other atheists.

toddaa gave a good short definition and mentions a good point atheists are a diverse group. Atheists just like theists are diverse in what they believe and the force those beliefs are in their lives.

[trotsky]

11. Yes, exactly.

Context is everything. I don't find the word "belief" offensive in and of itself - not at all. It's how that word gets used to lump atheists together, or claim that it takes just as much faith to be an atheist as to be a theist.

Well put, YankeyMCC.

[sam sarrha]

13. 'Basically', Buddhists believe that there are gods, but they cant help us

..essentially, they exist in their own realm and are too blissed out in their own powers and pride, Demi-gods in their own 'jealously', to be bothered with us, that they can not use their powers to escape 'Samsara' themselves, so it follows that they cant help us either.

so as an atheist, do you totally deny that gods exist, or can it involve that, perhaps.. if they do they cant help/effect us..?? is there any 'if'.. and if 'Not'... what do you call a person who feels if they exist that they are of no consequence to us..?.. is there a latin word for that..??

[beam me up scottie]

16. This might explain why some of us are a little

touchy:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=18097&mesg_id=18110

[VegasWolf]

19. Actually he is right, atheism cannot simply be the lack of belief in

god, if it were, it would simply be moot and nonsensical. Atheism
is an assertion that there is no intelligent force driving the
universe, that all actions are inherently irrational, and that there
is no underlying mystical force that is predetermining the outcome of events. Religious people use belief in a Kierkegaard sense, that
is, when confronted for a proof that there is a god, they rely on
belief to sustain them, given that there can never be a proof either
for or against the existence of god. No philosopher has ever
managed this feat and human logic cannot trump an irrational universe. This type of Kierkegaard "belief" obviously does not apply to atheists. What is appropriate is a positive assertion of underlying randomness.

[trotsky]

23. Where do you get that from?

As I've mentioned before, an atheist has studied the evidence presented for "god" and concluded it is insufficient to warrant belief. That's it. It doesn't mean that we positively assert anything else to take the place of god. Or as Teller, of Penn & Teller said:

Atheists do look for answers to existence itself. They just don't make them up.

[Zhade]

33. Pardon me, but you are wrong.

I do not assert there are no gods. I simply assert there is no convincing evidence of any to enable me to believe in them.

Just like believers, atheists come in all shapes, sizes, and worldviews. I won't define your thoughts, I'd appreciate the same courtesy in return.

[beam me up scottie]

17. Lerkfish, please accept my apology and read my last

post to you in your op.

[Lerkfish]

21. goodness. apology accepted tenfold.

:toast:

[beam me up scottie]

22. Methinks I will go hide in a&a until I can

be allowed out around people again.
:hide:

[blogbear]

18. If you break apart the word atheist it becomes a theist where the..

lone 'a' means 'not' or translated 'not a theist' ie not a believer in 'one' god.. As far as I know that is all there is to it despite those who would add their own variations..

[spunky]

24. I've never taken offense to the term belief.

We are unfortunately limited by the words that exist in our language.

I don't even know how to say I don't believe in God without using the word believe. heh.

[Tux]

27. Instead of "belief"

Lets all use "thesis". My thesis is that god exists but doesn't interact with the universe except to drop off fragments of ideas that we have to complete or find where they fit.

Using thesis as a term, we can take the debate from a pissing contest based on faith to one based on experience, reason, and knowledge (my new Trinity).

[_TJ_]

26. I BELIEVE there is no god

And I'm damn happy with my beliefs :D

Now as for agnostics - they are the guys who REALLY have no
beliefs. Goddamn work-shy hippy shirkers the lot of 'em. ;)

[FM Arouet666]

34. Offense? We need some clarity here.

A synonym of "belief" is "faith" which can be defined as "a firm belief in something for which there is no proof." A review of Websters offers alternative definitions of "belief", such as a "conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence."

Discussing the natural world, if conviction in the latter definition is supported by the scientific method, then yes, belief is an accurate term. However, the former is offensive.

Atheists take offense at the categorization of atheism as a belief equal to a belief in a god. It is not. My world view is one directed by science and holds that there is no supernatural. The enormous advances in human civilization since the dawn of science are irrefutable. I can demonstrate scientific principals based on evidence. What do we have from non-atheists, faith. A belief in something with no proof. An alternative definition is "fantasy."

I believe that there is no god, basing this conviction on the examination of the evidence. No apologies necessary, atheists do not become priggish over semantics.

:evilgrin:

[Mich Otter]

35. I have a strong belief...

I completely believe that we cannot depend upon any imaginary god or other being to solve our needs. We have to make this world what we want it to be. Our parents could not make an ideal the world for us, can we make a better world for future generations?
I do appreciate those who believe in imaginary beings who accept that their views are for themselves and not to be made law.