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cboy4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-08 09:58 AM
Original message
Gay-marriage debate roils, unites Mormons


Fallout over California vote
By Michael Paulson
Globe Staff / November 24, 2008 '

This has been a stormy year for Mormons in the United States. First, there was the candidacy of Mitt Romney for president, which brought to the surface a deep strain of anti-Mormonism in American culture. Then, there was the raid on a group of schismatic polygamists in Texas, which reminded America of Mormonism's uncomfortable history. And now, there is a wave of protest, rolling across the country from west to east, in which some gay rights advocates have targeted Mormons because of their church's support for a successful California referendum to overturn same-sex marriage.

Ironically, the protests appear to be helping repair a rift within Mormonism caused by the election. The church's outspoken support for Proposition 8 exposed an unusual level of disagreement in the ordinarily harmonious Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, as the Internet facilitated grass-roots organizing by the minority of Mormons who support same-sex marriage. But a smattering of anti-Mormon acts since Election Day - the burning of a Book of Mormon, a mailing of packets of white powder to Mormon sites, and some anti-Mormon invective expressed on signs and in sloganeering - has helped rally a denomination with a long history of persecution.

"I would not have voted in support of Prop. 8, but it does grieve me to see anybody being called bigoted for voting in an election and expressing their viewpoints," said Julie Berry, 34, of Maynard. "I support the right to protest, but vandalism and damage to church buildings - that hurts . . . and I wish we could see a little more defense of Mormons' right to exist as citizens and vote how they wish to vote. I'm sad to think that some of the social and political good will we've gained in the last 15 years may be set back."

Mormons in Massachusetts say they feel simultaneously distant from and connected to the goings-on in California. Some say the Mormon community here is more politically diverse than the church nationwide, influenced by the state's overwhelming liberalism and by the fact that same-sex marriage has been legal for five years. But Mormonism is a tight-knit faith group with extraordinary communication among members, and many are monitoring the backlash closely.

"It's been heartbreaking," said Laurel Thatcher Ulrich, a history professor at Harvard University. "A lot of people have felt really torn, because they were upset that the church had taken the role that it did, but then it does seem like Mormons were an easy target because people don't like us anyway."

Scholars and church members say this is an extraordinarily complicated moment for Mormonism in the United States and, in this history-minded faith, many are reaching to the 1970s, to the church's role as a vocal opponent of the Equal Rights Amendment, for comparison.Continued...

More----------------------------> http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2008/11/24/gay_marriage_debate_roils_unites_mormons/





Mormons' Uneasy Victory



By Stephen Stromberg
Monday, November 24, 2008; Page A17

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is becoming a potent political force. Last year's story was that Mormons had risen to some of the highest offices in America -- Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid belongs to the church, as does former Massachusetts governor Mitt Romney. This year's headline is that, with the encouragement of their religious leaders, Mormons gave loads of money and man-hours to pass Proposition 8 in California, which banned same-sex marriage in the state. Indeed, they were probably the most organized and consequential force behind the measure's passage. But in the face of post-election protests outside its temples, the church doesn't seem to want to take much credit.

Michael Otterson, a church spokesman, recently told the Associated Press that he was "puzzled" by the protesters' targeting of Mormons. "This was a very broad-based coalition that defended traditional marriage in a free and democratic election," he said. "It's a little disturbing to see these protesters singling out the Mormon Church."

There are Mormons who fought hard against the measure, drawing attention to the extent of Mormon involvement by outing fellow members on donor lists. There are Mormons so upset they're thinking of renouncing their church membership as well as Mormons who wholeheartedly supported the initiative. And then there are those who gave money out of obedience to their leaders, without much thought to the policy it was being used to support. Regardless of where they fall on this spectrum, many probably feel a bit like Otterson: uneasy with all the attention.
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It's unusual for an institution to shrink from responsibility for a victory at the ballot box. But being Mormon isn't quite like being, say, Southern Baptist. The highly centralized LDS church makes a lot of Americans nervous, and it has done so since Joseph Smith founded the movement, which was driven out of state after state before settling in the Salt Lake Valley. Where some see an efficient religious organization that requires unusual devotion from its members, others see conspiracy, even cult.

It's an impression that has its roots in, among other things, the church's practice of polygamy in the 19th century, and it has been self-reinforcing since. Non-Mormons see the church as outside the mainstream; Mormons feel under attack, which fosters a tight communalism within their congregations, and they try to avoid confrontation. Hence Otterson doing his best to play down the role church members had in the victory of Proposition 8 in the face of throngs demonstrating in front of temples.

More---------------------> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/23/AR2008112302042.html
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TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-08 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
1. "It does grieve me to see anybody being called bigoted for voting in an election"
When your group provides millions of dollars to support bigotry and orders members to support bigotry, you have no fucking right to object to being called a bigot.
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-08 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. "Gosh, all we did was vote!"
I haven't known any Mormons who were that stupid.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-08 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #1
12. Bigoted votes are bigoted votes.
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2Design Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-08 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
2. let's majority vote against, women, children, religions, etc discrimination for all n/t
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-08 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
3. so the LDS church now accepts being voted out of existance by the majority? yeah right..
the mormons are feeling persecuted after they vote to take away rights already granted because it was a MAJORITY vote. So that means we can outlaw their church if a MAJORITY of us vote to do so?

cry baby hypocrites indeed. BTW are they still sytematically destroying non-white culture in the name of their cult?

Msongs
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TlalocW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-08 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
4. Wah-wah-wah. Play the victim card much?
There's a difference between expressing a viewpoint/"voting how you want to vote" and working overtime to take away the rights of a particular group.

As for that professor whining about people not liking the church to begin with, maybe it's time for it to do two things: First, stop interfering in politics or start paying taxes so you can interfere in politics legally and two stop waking me up on Saturdays by sending Mormon kids to knock on my door.

TlalocW
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TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-08 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Yes, they do; every chance they get n/t
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-08 10:59 AM
Response to Original message
6. conservative christians have given up faith in jesus --
and taken up in believing they are personally persecuted,
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RetiredTrotskyite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-08 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #6
17. Yeah, Well, Christians Have Had...
a persecution complex since the very early days of their cult.
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Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-08 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
7. That's a great sign!
"Brigham Young had 55 wives! I only want one!"
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Zuiderelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-08 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
8. I wish we had the right as citizens to vote away other people's rights without people objecting.
"I wish we could see a little more defense of Mormons' right to exist as citizens and vote how they wish to vote."

The irony in the quotes in that article is astounding.
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KitchenWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-08 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. I think some people think that this is a real life version of "Survivor"
And they get to vote whomever they want off the island.

x(
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-08 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. You can't make this up. Unbelievable.
Not content to have taken away the rights of a minority, they now want to be praised for having done so??!!

They want their businesses supported for having done this? If we don't spend our money at their businesses, then WE are the bigots?

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KitchenWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-08 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
9. Oh the poor "persecuted" oppressors...
:eyes:

If they cannot stand the heat, they should not have donated millions of dollars toward taking away rights for other human beings.
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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-08 05:33 PM
Response to Original message
14. Boo freaking hoo
"it does grieve me to see anybody being called bigoted for voting in an election and expressing their viewpoints"


When they engage in bigotry by eradicating the rights of others it's "expressing their viewpoints". When we vote for equality and express our viewpoints it's "advancing Teh Homosexual Agenda and Destroying Freedom of Religion".


It must be nice to live in a bubble where only you get to have rights.
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mrbarber Donating Member (884 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-08 08:06 PM
Response to Original message
15. "which brought to the surface a deep strain of anti-Mormonism in American culture."
Yeah, the fact that the guy is a fucking lunatic had nothing to do with it.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-08 08:13 PM
Response to Original message
16. Fuck them!
If LDS is ever persecuted by fundie Christians, I will show the same concern for their rights as they did for my rights.
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