I think we may have to disallow discussion of alternative healing.

[Skinner]

Unfortunately, this is very dangerous business, and if someone gives someone else bad advice on this message board, I could be held liable. I suppose there may be room for very general discussion of experiences with alternative healing methods. But we have already seen a number of posts where people indicate they have a particular ailment, and then someone else diagnoses the problem and recommends a particular herbal remedy. I don't really know how we can permit this to go on.

[DemExpat]

1. If you can be held liable, then yes, this is a problem.

I personally value the discussion of experiences with other forms of healing and immunity boosting therapies the most, and do not feel that any diagnois and/or prescribing for others is smart or effective.

One can relate what they found effective, but advice for others is risky imo...

But to forbid discussion altogether seems very drastic to me.

Perhaps a disclaimer that no outright diagnosing and/or prescribing is allowed?

DemEx

[Desertrose]

6. I am wondering if the same thing holds true for other "advice" given here

Lots of legal and financial advice here on DU...Would DU be held responsible if that turns out to be bad advice??

just curious.

[Desertrose]

2. There was a disclaimer we had in our original mission statement

and I thought it was resubmitted. Here it is....

*Discussion of Alternative and Complementary Healing Methods is in no way to take the place of approved medical care/tests but to serve as a place to come together to discuss and share other options, experiences and modalities of healing.



I agree with Dem Ex Pat , that to attempt to "diagnose" is not proper in this forum, but to share similar experiences and discuss what may have helped in similar situations may be of benefit.

DR

on edit - can you also state that "DU does not condone or support nor is responsible for medical advice given by posting members" or something to that effect?

I agree that it seems very drastic to halt the discussion completely.

[DemExpat]

4. Skinner already added this to out statement today...

:hi:

DemEx

[Desertrose]

5. oops....thanks DemEx

:hi::hug:

[DemExpat]

3. This is what is posted at my University site forum on Complementary

Health:

Please remember that any advice given in this conference will be from an enthusiastic amateur and, while it may well be good advice, if you have a medical condition you should consult a medical professional who can consider your personal circumstances.

You are also reminded that the Conditions of Use and Code of Conduct apply in this conference. In particular:

· Commercial use of this conference is forbidden.
· Contributions must not consist of, or contain, illegal or offensive material.
· This is a social environment. Normal rules of social interaction are in force. The remoteness of the recipients must not be used as an excuse to communicate in an anti-social manner.
· Users should not contribute to a conference unless their contribution is intended to further the aims of the conference.
· Personal exchanges should be directed to a user's mailbox (i.e. an email), not to a conference.
· Personal comments about other users and their views should not be placed in public conferences.
· Copying private messages to another person without the author's explicit permission is a breach of confidentiality.

Although not against the Conditions of Use or Code of Conduct, you are advised for your own privacy and safety not to post personal information in a public conference.

Within these rules (which are set by the University, and apply to all conferences), you are welcome to discuss any aspect of complementary health.

Conferences are moderated by students, for students, and are open to all.

[DemExpat]

7. I see posts in the Lounge about people with headaches

and what not, and people ask for suggestions.....and this is allowed.

What is the difference, just curious?

DemEx

[2Design]

8. doctors don't like alternative healers - it takes money away from

them - and therefore they sue or encourage suits

plus some alternative healers don't know what they are doing
just like some doctors don't know what they are doing but they have malpractice insurance which bush is trying to curtail our suits over their mistakes

sorry rant

and more on edit

mid wives did a really good job of helping women have babies
then men saw they could make money in it
law came into being that only doctors could deliver babies
in the beginning - a lot of babies and women died because these 'doctors' did not use 'clean' instruments and were not as good as the mid wives

but the media than like now twisted it - the reason you couldn't have midwives is look at all the deaths and dangers that are possbile in births


yes the bureaucrats have been at it a long time

[DemExpat]

9. Well-trained Midwives here in The Netherlands rock!

:hi:

But they are under pressure now too to cave into the medicalization of childbirth. :grr: :-(


DemEx

edit:
Which makes me wonder about this too.....If someone on DU decides to give birth "naturally" at home with a midwife after hearing of other DUers' positive experiences with home-births, and problems arise during the birth, will Skinner be liable for this?

The "alternative to the medical establishment" police will have to be on duty full time to watch out for dangerous threads like this anywhere on DU....

Sorry, being a little ornery here....

[DemExpat]

12. The DU Vegan Group will also have to be very careful....

not medically advocated for health.

DemEx

[Desertrose]

18. OMG- as long as they don't accuse Skinner of being the father....

.....how could they hold him responsible? :evilgrin:

Think of this Skinner--- if you are held liable for any "medical advice ....then you are also now responsible for the words of almost 57822 people -- unless you have a general disclaimer!!



OMG OMG OMG OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


:evilgrin:
DR

[FM Arouet666]

41. Not true

As a physician I don't like alternative healers because they are not grounded in science and most do not work. The money issue is nonsense, the impact is not that large, and because most remedies don't work, the patient returns to me anyway.

I am all for alternative treatments, modern health care does not have all the answers, but unproved, untested methods can be dangerous.

I am curious, who are you referring to when you state that doctors sue or encourage suits? Any specific examples?

[Pallas180]

10. That is a very important consideration, Skinner. Although, you should prol

prolly be using a disclaimer for the entire site, such as "the opinions and or advice proclaimed here are the opinions of the authors and not of the site operator, owner, or principals of Democratic Underground." etc etc

Maybe it's time to put something like that up to protect yourself from
the nutcases who want to report you for "sedition" and that kind of crap...

You've had a wonderful idea here, but the political world is getting nasty and I guess you really should protect yourself.

Best
Pallas

[stellanoir]

11. I understand your grave concerns

It's indeed very sticky territory. Medical liability used to be predicated in part, by a monetary exchange. People are not charging for their advice so it hardly qualifies as any sort of contractual agreement.

That's why we also all have in our arsenal, the all time, all purpose, ultimate disclaimer. . .

"All posts on DU are written exclusively for entertainment purposes only !"

Could be a generic sig line. Used to work before the so called Patriot Act anyway. Still should be in my smallish book.

Aaaand we should be able to help each other when we can, knowing all the while that different things work for different bodies and temperaments. That should in no way endanger the resources of our more than generous hosts.

IMHO. I seriously doubt that anyone taking advise from an online message board without getting some professional verification would ever be seen by a court of law as anything but utterly spurious stupidity.

[DemExpat]

13. DesertRose just had a good suggestion:

...... "maybe Admins could make a general disclaimer about ANY advice given here on DU come up (like a pop-up) so people have to read it as they click into the forum......."

Now, Elad could engineer this, I'm sure! :D

:kick:

DemEx

[Desertrose]

14. "anyone taking advise from an online message board "....

"I seriously doubt that anyone taking advise from an online message board without getting some professional verification would ever be seen by a court of law as anything but utterly spurious stupidity. "

Too funny....I said the exact same thing!!!

and the general disclaimer would be a good idea for the entire site....there is tons of advise freely given here on a daily basis...hell's bells...look at the lounge for example......

I agree it is a fine line but I hope you take into consideration that we are after all, democraticUNDERGROUND and as such not an advice giving website.

DR

[2Design]

15. hey when people dump hot coffe on themselves and blame someone

else and win - well this ownership society bush talks about is really a blame society - look at bush he blames everyone else for his mistakes and he does nothing wrong in his mind - they are all blamers

I do like that sig line
I am going to us it (modified) - you won't sue me will you

All posts on DU are written exclusively for entertainment purposes only

[Dookus]

17. You should look into the McDonald's coffee suit..

it's not nearly as frivolous as it's been made out to be. The woman was severely burned, McDonald's had previously settled many such cases, they had been warned that their coffee was kept at an unsafe temperature, and the final verdict against them amounted to the PROFITS of their coffee sales for a couple days.

A jury found McDonald's at fault after hearing all the evidence. Higher courts did NOT disagree with their verdict, only the penalty.

McDonalds rightly deserved to lose.

[stellanoir]

20. yeah and how did McDonald's respond to that case. . .?

With a disclaimer: "Contents may be excessively HOT. . .Duh. . ." or some such nonsense.

It's like. . ."hey stupid. . . If you took a gazillion I.U.'s of fat soluble Vitamin E because a totally unlicensed stranger recommended it on a website, then you fully earned the toxic effects you suffered. Congratulations."

Why does this potential liability remind me of Fox's case against Franken saying that they owned the words, "Fair and Balanced." The judge just laughed it out of court.

Holding the administrators responsible for our ridiculous ramblings is crazy but I'm sure they can figure out a more appropriate disclaimer than the one I wrote.

I agree with Desert Rose, it applies to many other forums as well. I concur also with Skinner for his concerns. But the right disclaimer would protect the administrators, all of us, as well as the less than discerning readers.

I've been giving over the counter Chinese Meds to friends, family, and strangers for years. I have a close friend that was a National Commissioner for the oversight of Chinese Medicine and Acupuncture who advised me as to what to use. They're cheap, effective, speed up the amelioration of normal cold and flu symptoms, and have no side effects whatsoever. I'm not liable for any problems and there haven't even been any anyway, because I give them away.

This whole dilemma seems completely workable and entirely fixable to me. But it may bring up broader issues having to do with the site. Fundamentally, I don't believe the administrators are at all responsible for our ramblings and they should be protected. Not by the repression of expression but by the appropriately penned disclaimer. Silly me.

[Desertrose]

21. "Not by the repression of expression but......" yes! I agree!

:hi: well said Stellanoir

"This whole dilemma seems completely workable and entirely fixable to me. But it may bring up broader issues having to do with the site. Fundamentally, I don't believe the administrators are at all responsible for our ramblings and they should be protected. Not by the repression of expression but by the appropriately penned disclaimer. "

I agree...entirely fixable and I'd say a definite heads up for the entire site!


PS I love some of the Chinese meds...they have helped me out more times that I can count...I wish western medicine would be more aware of it...sigh...

:loveya
DR

[2Design]

16. ck out my new sig line - thanks for the inspiration - now noone will

take me serious - :):):)

where are the sig lines - did I do something wrong - HHHHmmmmm

[Desertrose]

19. siglines are turned off currently

so guess you'll have to wait. :(

[Domitan]

22. A disclaimer could work.

How about a clear post on the top of the page saying that DU is not responsible for people following the alternative healing suggestions? Also, say that the alternative healing recommendations do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the DU administrators.

[Mabus]

23. Whatever you feel comfortable with

It's your board and your behind. I respect your decisions and will abide by them.

[Eloriel]

24. Sigh. *I* was the one who mentioned 3 herbal remedies

traditionally used for muscle pain and as nervines.

I did it by opening one of my favorite books, "How to Be Your Own Herbal Pharmacist: Herbal Traditions, Expert Formulations" by Linda Page, N.D., Ph.D. (N.D. = Naturopathic Doctor) and picking several of the more commonly known and used herbs from her lists of herbs for muscle pain and spasms. I've just checked her individual discussions for each of the herbs I mentioned and none of the horrific negative effects mentioned by whoever it was is listed at all, nor have I seen those scarey warnings elsewhere for these herbs in ANY of the books in my library (and I have a good number of herbals).

I am not in a position to argue with someone who claims to have "25 years of experience" with herbs (so I didn't -- and won't), but I WILL tell you that all of these herbs are considered by the FDA as "GRAS" -- Generally Regarded As Safe." (In fact, all of the herbs that are available on the market are GRAS -- and have been since at least the 1930s, which is why, along with all other non-herb GRAS substances, they are NOT regulated by the FDA.) They have been in use for literally thousands of years; people are not dying from using them (UNLESS they're severely abusing them, as was the case with Ma Huang or Ephedra). These and hundreds of other herbs are sold at virtually every healthfood store in the country.

Is it possible to use them improperly, and get sick because of it? Sure, and it's possible to overdose on aspirin, too. Or water. Alcohol. OTC drugs.

I understand FULLY where you're coming from, especially if you read that alarming post responding to mine, or God only knows what scarey stuff in some alert by either the same person or perhaps one or more of our arch rivals here at DU.

But please don't take our discussions of alternative medicine away from us. Put a big ole hairy disclaimer somewhere, make us put a disclaimer in anything we post (whether it's "advice" or just information -- and I considered mine merely informational and made it deliberately short on details so the poster would seek out other info -- like from their healthfood store or the internet).

You have to remember. There are people who own healthfood stores all over the country who sell herbs (and usually give quite a bit of advice about their products if asked). There are numerous people, like Dr. Page, who write books about the herbs that are commonly available all over the country. Why are these thousands of people not afraid of being sued?

I just leafed thru Dr. Page's introductory material to see if she used a disclaimer of any type. I couldn't find one.

Look, I don't want you or DU to be in any peril, but I really do think some of the suggestions about disclaimers would prevent that totally.
Please help us find someway to allow these discussions to continue.

And thanks for letting us discuss it.

[greyl]

25. I think "spirituality" deserves an identity seperate from astrology.

Who doesn't?

[Eloriel]

34. Good grief -- "Metaphysics" has already been taken away from us

Whose side are you on? ARE you a supporter of the mission statement of this Group forum?

Edited to add: taken from us because of the IGNORANT (ill-informed) argument by one (or more) of our detractors. When will it end?

[Desertrose]

36. beginning to understand a lot more here.....

I'm beginning to understand prejudice from a much closer perspective....

We have only ever asked to share & discuss interests common to many of us here...no conversion...no preaching...no intrusion on others beliefs...yet we are followed from forum to forum ,constantly questioned, ridiculed and told we are basically ignorant....and yet everything we discuss here, everything from astrology to herbs to spirituality has taken YEARS and the greater part of our lives to learn.

Do we say we know it all or have all the answers- the ONLY answers? Of course not. All we want to do is share & discuss without having to constantly battle those who have a different point of view ( who although they may say they don't want to convert, certainly display all the characteristics of fundamentalists!)

And all this is coming from so called "liberals". Sounds a lot more like the "other side" who constantly seek to control the thoughts of others and stifle rights and free speech.

I don't want to fight...but I will not let anyone take my right to discuss my ideas away just because they don't agree with me.

Our "advice" and alternative healing discussion could be taken care of with a simple disclaimer. Please don't let fear get the upper hand.....or allow the few who try to control by fear accomplish their goals. (Also keep in mind that none of us who have started this group are having any problems within this forum ...they certainly appear to have been started by those who very obviously do not agree with the mission statement.)

This is a lovely place you provided Skinner.....I hope it doesn't become dismantled piece by piece. (This seems to be an echo of what is going on out in the country. I hope we can set an example here on DU.... that it IS a big tent and that by giving in to fear we are not gaining anything but losing a lot.)
(bold added on edit)
peace please
DR

edited for numerous typos

[DemExpat]

26. People asking for advice and experience here in this group

are NOT asking for medical advice anyway - this might have been questionable when this took place in the MR and the Lounge, but with this group, the intention of the poster is clear.

I hope that with a disclaimer the Admins can protect themselves from any liability issues.

DemEx

[stellanoir]

27. Upon further reflection. . .

I'm wondering if the title "Alternative Healing" isn't perhaps enough of a disclaimer in itself. It's not entitled " tried and true 100% guaranteed cures for all your woes."

"Alternative" is a widely inclusive modifier isn't it?

Maybe it should be entitled "Snake Oils and Placebos."

Maybe I haven't had enough coffee this morning.

Eloriel, please don't regret posting those herbal cures. Not only does it seem as though it was unquestionably motivated by a generous and caring instinct, but you obviously based your suggestion on a legitimate and trusted source.

And if it did indeed trigger this discussion, we probably needed to examine the veracity of liability for these sorts of suggestions anyhow.

[Desertrose]

28. I inadvertantly posted Eloriel's source a few posts down

without realizing...

It was from a trusted handbook by an MD(!) and his wife..

Prescription For Nutritional Healing
by James Balch, M.D. & Phyllis Balch, C.N.C.
...by a medical doctor and a certified nutritionist, this revised volume provides all the information the average person needs to design his or her own nutritional program for better health.


and Linda Rector Page's Healthy Healing book .....

Itds not like we are making these things up...I have a feeling many of us have been studying and working with these things for many years.....and as Dover mentions...there is "Alternative" in the header.

:) GR

[stellanoir]

32. hey Desert Rosie. . .

"and as Dover mentions...there is "Alternative" in the header."

I'm NOT Dover you know. . .oh wait. . . I feel an identity crisis coming on. . .Help!!!!!!. . . Quick any suggestions for herbal remedies for that particularly confused condition. . .?

Kidding. . . just couldn't resist.

[Desertrose]

33. aw crap...my most humble apologies to you sweet Stella!!!!!!!!!

I was trying to post in between drying my hair, feeding my cat and before "others" in my house jumped on the computer!!

My non-herbal suggestion to myself is..."post in haste...repent in leisure"

(I should listen to myself more LOL)

dang...posting pre-coffee- not good..'cept I don't usually drink coffee...so I have NO EXCUSE!!!!
:spank:

:hug: DR

[DemExpat]

29. lol - "Snake Oils and Placebos" - I'll vote for that if this ensures our

freedom of discussion on these fantastic, mostly safe, and helpful health aids!

:D:D:D

DemEx

[Eloriel]

35. Hey, I'd go for that too

Just don't take it away from us.

[Desertrose]

30. self-deleted

nevermind

[Astarho]

31. A disclaimer should work

I mean I hope there no one who relies solely on this site for medical advice. Posters just put up a disclaimer on any herbal/alternative healing advice they give. (and that might not be a bad thing for the financial, legal and other advice given on other forums too)

[alijana]

37. Thank You

I would like to thank Skinner and all who read or post in these Forums for the opportunity to have discussions on Spirtiuality, Astrology, and Alternative Healing. I usually do not read much on DU except the Ascension Threads in the old Meeting Room. But everything in the above Forums are of interest to me and I look forward to a lot of learning and sharing.

Shining my Light and Love on the World!

Joy

[Pathwalker]

38. I have seen the situation you describe here ALL OVER DU.

Skinner, it has NEVER been limited to this new group.You can get free, vetinary advise in the Lounge whenever you want - you might want a disclaimer for that too. And, if you want to avoid a lawsuit by some parent whose child saw some of the sex threads in the Lounge, you might want a disclaimer "For adults Only" in there. Then, there's the language in the Thread Headers in GD etc.,not to mention the contents. You might also want to consider a "Mature Language" disclaimer for those forums too. Is this the only place a disclaimer will be used?

A disclaimer here, regarding Alternative Healing,would probably be all you need to avoid legal issues, but when posters won't even honor the Mission Statement, that is another issue that will need resolving too.

However, I would like to say that, IMO, Alternative Healing is a quickly growing industry that is now so popular that Drs. across America are now accepting MORE and more is this, as are insurers. It is no longer considered by THEM to be fringe, it is now considered an ACCEPTABLE alternative - complimentary, even. It's Mainstream now.

Not trying to be a humbug here, but the only thing these threads might do for someone like me, is make me INVESTIGATE some of the alternatives presented.

"If and when I decide what method of healing to choose, I take full responsibility for my choice." MY DISCLAIMER.

[Pallas180]

39. Gee, was Metaphysics taken away?? I didn't realize that. What

was wrong with metaphysical thought, positive thinking?

[Desertrose]

40. There are some who evidently felt their version of the definition

was the only accepted one....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=120x24729

here's a bit more ...
Metaphysics: the branch of philosophy concerned with the study of the nature of being and beings, existence, time and space, and causality

To add on to the definition, metaphysics is the branch of knowledge that contains the unexplainable, the supernatural, the unknown, etc. Metaphysics deals with the side of reality that is not physical. What may exist on a 'higher plane of existence' that cannot be seen or proven by any physical means.
http://chopsticks.koolplace.com/stuff/metaphysics.html

Metaphysical

Derived from the Greek meta ta physika ("after the things of nature"); referring to an idea, doctrine, or posited reality outside of human sense perception. In modern philosophical terminology, metaphysics refers to the studies of what cannot be reached through objective studies of material reality.

Metaphysical ideas, because they are not based on direct experience with material reality, are often in conflict with the modern sciences.

http://www.counterbalance.net/cqgloss/metaph-body.html


go figure, huh :shrug:

[Digit]

50. I wondered where metaphysics had disappeared to

so, who let the fundies decide?

[FM Arouet666]

42. I agree with the Admin

As a physician myself I have been very careful not to offer specific diagnoses or treatments when responding to questions on this board.
It is just too easy to become entangled in a law suit these days.
I would consult an attorney, but I suspect a general disclaimer would not be enough to shield the site. I would be curious as to how a healer, traditional or alternative, could respond to a question without creating a personal and site liability issue.

[stellanoir]

43. Yeah but Doc. . .

It's an entirely different context. You are under the Hippocratic oath to take the best care possible of an individual, and receive renumeration for said services. And I know that insurance has cut into the payment for your nobel services demonstrably.

We're doing this pro bono, and mostly anonymously.

As you know, many of us are now uninsured. We are very simply are compelled to help each other.

In as much as I differ with the insurance's and the pharmaceutical companies" domination of our health care services, I simply can't believe that without the right disclaimer or labeling of this application, like something as silly as "snake oils and placebos" that it wouldn't be laughable in a court of law.
And the administrators would not be liable in any way shape or form.

Thanks for your service and caring.

[FM Arouet666]

44. You might be correct

I would urge the Admin to discuss this with an attorney, you might be correct, a disclaimer may offer a shield. However, having seen medical consent forms tossed out of court in lawsuits, I would be careful.

As for pro bono and anonymous, both would not protect you.
First, your not anonymous, you leave a trail where ever you go on the Internet, and all members are registered with the board. A lawsuit threating the board would likely yield your information. As for the lack of payment, I am not sure this would shield you either. I guess it would depend on whether the person offering the advise is doing so as an established alternative healer.

I hope the forum will be allowed to discuss alternative therapies, I am generally ignorant of alternative healing, but have to field questions from patients all the time.

[stellanoir]

45. i agree with you again Doc but

but, but (sorry but I'm like that), though I know we are fully traceable, I also still fundamentally believe that if we are only offering gentle suggestions as opposed to absolute cures, and there is no monetary exchange there would be neglible liability.

If you're an MD then you're in an entirely different and more vulnerable catagory.

For me to suggest epsom salts and baking soda baths with one's favorite oil, really couldn't hurt anyone. I don't think anyway.

However, contraindication is a more than serious problem.

Don't know whether you read an earlier post wherein I stated that I had given fully legally licensed over the counter Chinese remedies for family, friends, and strangers for free.

Well my dad was diagnosed with gout. I wanted to give him Yunnan Paiyao: a Chinese remedy that increases circulation and reduces inflamation. It's an amazing remedy. I called a dear friend who was a big muck a muck National Commissioner for the Admistration of Oriental Medicine and Acupuncture, and told him of the other medication he was on, before I administered this remedy, my dear friend called me back in a heartbeat. He said, "Do not ever give Yannan Paiyao to anyone on Beta Blockers!!!"

So perhaps the disclaimer should include something about contraindicators as well as snake oils and placebos.

Again thanks for your work.

[Eloriel]

46. In my experience, Chinese herbs are WAY more powerful as a class

and a generalization, than Western herbs. I've had some nasty experiences with them myself, and now limit myself to the "Westernized" Chinese herbs -- astragalus, licorice (only occasionally), and I never can remember the other one I will use on occasion. :shrug:

Relative to cures. This is how Multi-level Marketing organizations avoid the FDA problem: they NEVER use the words "heal" or "cure" and further make heavy use of "testimonials," -- people who've used the products saying, "This is what worked for me when I needed help with X problem." or "I took X product and this is what happened." You can't argue with personal testimonials, and they're not illegal.

I'll say again, aside from a few really minor and totally benign "do this's" in that thread (as benign as your epsom salt baths), I saw NO ONE prescribing, and I saw NO ONE diagnosing. (Wish the thread were still available to read.)

Did our good Doctor see the thread himself? If not, I'd say his admonishment against "prescribing" and "diagnosing" are inappropriate, because that's not what happened. The woman who rained all over my post accused me of that (IIRC), but a mere list of three herbs along with the comment that they're widely available in most healthfood stores is neither a diagnosis nor a prescription. It's educational.

And that reminds me of other useful disclaimer-type language: "traditional and folklore" uses (if you're talking about herbs and certain other "home remedies") and "for educational purposes."

[stellanoir]

47. different things work for different folks. . .

In short, I would not have a living child if it were not for Chinese Medicine. I suffered innumerable miscarriages. I never went to a western Doc. I had to drink insufferably distasteful Chinese botanicals through my first and second trimester. I figured they sure beat hormonal treatments. I just picked up my boy, now 13 years old, exhausted and starving from a basketball tryouts. That was truly a pleasure.

Mostly simply and again, different things work for different people.

And so much of healing hinges solely on one's faith in the practitioner.

I seriously don't think that everyone responds well to Chinese Medicine. But my son and I do. The old adage is "pick your poison" applies totally. Beyond that I think that everyone has to take personal responsibility for one's well being. So if someone suggests something on a website, do we take it as gospel. . .? Of course not. That's simply why I hope Skinner relaxes and offers up a disclaimer or a silly alternate label so we can continue to help each other.

Okay I'll shut up. . .for now at least

[Eloriel]

48. Oh, I agree -- sorry if it sounded like I was dissing Chinese herbs

I'm not, at all. In fact, BECAUSE they are so powerful (at least in my case), I have a lot of respect for them, but unlikely to explore them further for myself.

And indeed I am a special case because of the after-effects of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome which ALSO left me allergic to some pain killers and some antibiotics. One BIG reason herbs are so important to me.

Again, I apologize for my tactlessness.

[LWolf]

49. I never saw the thread that apparently brought this issue up.

But I think there is a big difference between discussing the home remedies or non-western methods we've tried and diagnosing or prescribing treatment to someone.

Home remedies and non-Western approaches to health are a fact of life; we use them, and we talk about them all the time in real life. I don't think discussion of alternative healing methods has anything to do with diagnosis or prescription for others; it's just that. A discussion. Hopefully, discussion is still ok on a discussion board.

If we can't talk about the benefits we enjoy from a cup of chammomile tea, then I hope no one at DU ever talks about self-medicating with alcohol or other substances for the sake of relaxation or recreation.

I'm sorry, but unfortunately not surprised, that this has become an issue. Skinner, if you are reading...have you found DUers trying to diagnose medical conditions and prescribe medicine for others, or is this more an issue raised by the new group structure?

[DemExpat]

53. Good idea! We can put Alternative Healing TESTIMONIALS

in our DU Group name....

:thumbsup:

DemEx

[arwalden]

54. A Testimonial Is An Expression Of Esteem

Which has the same effect as a recommendation or encouragement to do the same or try the remedy. It encourages self-diagnosis based on anecdotal evidence which has been skewed by the expectations of the person giving the testimony.

Can. Of. Worms.

[DemExpat]

55. Any good ideas to help us maintain discussion in

this area of great interest to us?

Thanks,

DemEx

anecdotal evidence which has been skewed by the expectations of the person giving the testimony.
LOL :D:D:D

[arwalden]

56. No. I'm Afraid I Share Skinner's Concerns

and I believe he has a valid point and that simply re-labeling the advice as "testimonials" does nothing to alleviate the legitimate concerns. I am an interested party, yet your reply makes it appear as though being in agreement and sharing those concerns are not welcomed here. Please forgive the intrusion, Demex.

~Allen

[DemExpat]

57. I share Skinner's concerns too

and any response within the group's statement aims is welcome here, Arwalden.

Thanks for your interest.

:hi:

DemEx

[arwalden]

60. My Reply (Edited For Clarity)

Even though my response does not TECHNICALLY conform with the group's mission statement, should it be disallowed? Again, as an interested party (on the whole) and in consideration that this Admin-started thread was asking for opinions on an issue that has more import than simply whether or not to modify the title and scope of this forum. (Come to think of it, this thread itself may not conform to the mission statement.)

Much of what I say in post #59 is an appropriate reply to you as well, so I won't repeat it here. Just scroll down for yourself if interested.

~Allen

[G_j]

58. good to hear you are an interested party

A postive interest in "Astrology, metaphysics & spirituality, homeopathy/alternative medicine and healing, Ascension, and other subjects having to do with holistic physical and spiritual growth & traditions." could only add to the group.

[arwalden]

59. Thanks For Quoting The Mission Statement

to make certain that I stay in-line. I see where this is headed, so I'm afraid I'll have to point out the obvious that without DU there would be no groups of any sort. It seems to be a bit selfish for some to be willing to put the whole at risk for the vanity of a few. My being in agreement with Skinner and sharing his concerns--and voicing my opinions on the same--do indeed "add to the group" because it is prudent and protects the community as a whole.

Again, forgive my brazen intrusion.

~Allen

[G_j]

61. sorry if you took it that way

I didn't object to your comments at all.
I think you make a point well worth considering.

[arwalden]

62. Oh, Yes. Of Course. I See That Now. How Silly Of Me...

to interpret someone's recitation of the "rules" or reiteration of the mission statement as being anything other than a stern look and a less-than-subtle warning for me to stay in-line. What was I thinking? :eyes:

Stupid me.

~Allen

[G_j]

63. again I am sorry

but I really was not trying to discourage your participation.

I apologize. I probably should not have quoted the mission statement. I can see how it might have felt insulting since of course, you can read. On retrospect it was condescending on my part.
Please accept my apology.

[arwalden]

64. Thanks. It's Already Forgotten.

~Allen

[DemExpat]

65. Vanity of a few?

I am certain that probably almost everything that transpires here on DU is against SOMEONE'S beliefs/ideas/religion/political ideology/even some laws.....our heartfelt interests/beliefs/persuasions are not simply "vanities"....

Scary thought, but no reason to shut DU down.

Smart thinking of Admins to name it DemocraticUnderground....


Maybe we need a discussion somewhere else on the board on acceptability/liability/viability of open discussion board issues for DU as a whole.

Good idea for discussion.

DemEx

[arwalden]

66. Yes... Vanity

Attempts to re-frame and redefine my concern as being nothing more than an expression of a differing ideology is a bit short-sighted. It's not that simple, Demex. I think you've missed my point.

Heartfelt or not, when someone is unwilling to see the larger picture, and when someone is unwilling to acknowledge potential threats to the whole community (and the likely underlying causes) then it is indeed selfish and vain.

Even though DU is a limited liability corporation, it's my understanding that this only protects its owners from personal liability and other financial risks... but DU could still be bankrupted or financially crippled if someone chose to pursue damages (despite cleverly worded disclaimers, it still costs money to respond to a lawsuit).

[DemExpat]

67. My point is that practically ALL of our positions and passions here

can be construed to be a potential THREAT to SOME out there.

Anti-war, anti-military, anti-Repub, GLBT rights, pro-abortion activists, etc. etc. ETC.
Not to mention all of the advice given everywhere on this forum on a variety of issues - education, diet and foods, vitamins, legal advice, financial advice, pregnancy/birth/childcare issues, pets, taking illegal drugs, etc.

Not just the potential users of herbs.....


So all of our activity here is "dangerous", "treasonous", "unlawful", "anti-establishment" in some people's eyes.

Should we then consider all of DU's discussion, protest, open ideas etc. selfish and vain?

But I agree, Skinner needs to look carefully into all of these issues to avoid potential liability (or worse - unpatriotic=treason?) claims.....

DemEx

[arwalden]

69. You're Still Missing My Point

by trying to inaccurately compare online political dissent with online medical advice. That's a silly comparison. And in doing so, it dilutes or ignores the real threats and risks posed to DU by permitting medical advice (or its equivalent). It's an open invitation for our adversaries to claim damages--whether real or invented--and cause harm to DU.

Actual "treasonous" and "unlawful" activities that you suggest are happening here is prohibited by DU rules--as a moderator you should know that already--and if it's happening, then it is deleted to protect all of our interests. It's the prudent and responsible thing to do. This is no different.

>> Should we then consider all of DU's discussion, protest, open ideas etc. selfish and vain? <<

What an preposterous thing to ask... but I'll answer anyway.

No. We should not consider "all of DU's discussion" to be selfish and vain... only those discussions that put DU at risk of financial liability should fall into that category. I hope this answer clears up any confusion for you.

Following your logic, one might surmise that you'd be in favor of--or that you'd defend the rights of others to form--a bomb-making forum. As long as the proper disclaimers were included... why not, eh? ("This is for informational and educational purposes only. We do not advocate that you actually make a bomb, but here's the instructions anyway.") No... of course I know you wouldn't actually be in favor of that! I'm just being absurd to illustrate absurdity.

There is a difference between speech and topics that others find 'offensive' and those things which someone can be held legally and financially accountable for actual damages. If you truly don't understand the difference, then there's nothing more I can say. (Personally, I think you're smarter than the words you write... and that you really do understand.)

[Desertrose]

68. and the same can be said of those who choose to shut down discussion

"Heartfelt or not, when someone is unwilling to see the larger picture, and when someone is unwilling to acknowledge potential threats to the whole community (and the likely underlying causes) then it is indeed selfish and vain."

Such BS, Al. You know damn well that in the past 4 years ( or for as long as you may have been here) many posters here on DU have been espousing many things that could "possibly" have shut this site down...from outright revolution to discussing death of officials to conspiracy theories and more...where was your concern for Skinner & DU on those points? Why has this suddenly been brought up in the first place? These are the same things we have been posting in the MR for ages. Could it possibly be because we now have our own forum for these things of interst to us.

No no my friend, it is clearly this FORUM that is the focus of your outrage. The joy you take in debunking and baiting those who don't agree with you is well known...as a matter of fact you even posted this right in your own forum.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=247x86#133

"The other part of it comes from watching (reading) the squirming or weaseling as the most militant of believers try to justify their belief in magic. Facts be damned! --- You'd think I'd be frustrated with it, but it can be amusing."
-- Allen

Please do not expect me to believe that you are more concerned with the welfare of Skinner & DU than you are with your own crusade against what you have determined is "vanity".

Vanity indeed, but its certainly not vanity of those trying to share information to help others to educate and up lift others.


DR

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[arwalden]

70. Desertrose, That's Untrue And Unfair.

You may question my motives and believe as you choose, Rose. But, I have expressed no outrage. What outrage are you referring to? How absurd for you to suggest that I wasn't (or wouldn't be) opposed to messages that advocating killing someone or overthrowing our government! What an insult! I don't deserve that.

>> Why has this suddenly been brought up in the first place? <<

I don't know. Skinner's post brought it to my attention. If there's more to it, then I'm unaware of what might have gone before. The other accusations and personal attacks are--on the face of it--totally ridiculous.

Skinner's post appeared to be an invitation for public comment. I commented. I've expressed my opinion, and the Admins are welcome to place any value on it that they desire. They may take it to heart or they may discard it. That would be *their* choice, not yours.

Wouldn't it be better to offer counterpoint arguments instead of posting such an intense message with all these personal accusations?

>> These are the same things we have been posting in the MR for ages. <<

It was wrong when it was going on in the Meeting Room too--I've said so--I've been consistent on that. My stated opinion here should be no surprise to you.

>> The joy you take in debunking and baiting those who don't agree with you is well known... <<

How is this relevant to my opinions on this matter? Answer: It's not! (And I take issue with the "baiting" comment.) Any enjoyment I may get from debating facts and debunking myths are irrelevant to whether or not my opinion about the legal risks associated with dispensing online medical advice and recommendations.

What you're doing here is arguing against the MESSENGER and not against the merits of my message itself. Sigh.

>> Please do not expect me to believe that you are more concerned with the welfare of Skinner & DU than you are with your own crusade... <<

My comments were not *about* you, nor were they *for* you. I do not "expect you to believe" anything. You will believe as you choose to believe. I know that.

In any case, I've stated my opinion and the Admins are free to do with it as they wish. I have no interest in--nor would it serve any meaningful purpose to continue--'debating' this any further with you.

By the way, your scorn and low opinion of me has been duly noted.

~Allen

edit: clarity

[G_j]

71. To be fair, you'll have to admit

there is some 'baggage' in this equation.
It is hard to suddenly separate your present concern from past 'discussions'.
I backed away on questioning your motives because I don't want to drag past friction into this forum. However, it is not entirely easy to feel assured that you have the purest of intentions toward this group. I will not make a judgment but please understand the concern.

It seems this is really a legal question anyway. The most helpful comments would obviously come from an 'expert' on such matters.
I certainly don't have any answers myself.

[arwalden]

72. I See Your Point...

and I do understand the 'concern'. I don't blame anyone for having suspicions or misgivings about my comments here... but I do find fault when someone chooses attacks and accusations directed at me rather than at the merits of what I have to say.

>> However, it is not entirely easy to feel assured that you have the purest of intentions toward this group. <<

Well, actually, I have no intentions at all towards this group, pure or otherwise.

You're correct, it is a legal question, and I'm certain that the Admins have professional counsel available to them. I don't have an expert opinion, just a common-sense one. Maybe it's helpful to them, maybe not. Ultimately it's their decision.

[G_j]

73. I am curious

as to how this pans out.
On a more mundane level, if someone posts in an Internet forum that they cleaned tar off their Mercedes with Mountain Dew and someone else oes and tries this and does thousands of dollars in damage to their car would someone be liable?
Medical matters are more serious, but it seems the principal would be the same.

It would seem to me being liable for testimonials could be quite a hamper on free speech.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FM Arouet666]

52. Perhaps you should read my post a bit closer

"his comments about it were out of line anyway. He accused us of "diagnosing" and "prescribing," and I maintain that didn't happen."

I did not accuse anyone of anything, I stated that I, myself, have been very careful not to diagnose or recommend treatment for anyone.
I was merely commenting on behavior which I fear could lead to liability.

"If he wants to "learn" more about alternative healing methods, there's much, much more information available elsewhere on the Internet"

I have read the mission statement and abide by it. You would exclude another DU member from non confrontational discussion which abides by your mission statement simply because that person comes from a suspect profession?

So if a patient asked me about a particular herbal remedy and I posted here to ask what people thought of it, I would be banned because I am from the medical establishment? Sure I could look it up on the net, but a personal opinion is sometimes more enlightening.

I understand your point, some have shamelessly attacked others on this board to the point where a specific forum is desired. Your post is one of exclusion and I would urge you to reconsider. Those who abide by the mission statement should not be excluded.

[Skinner]

74. Thanks for your input.

We will announce a decision soon.