Are some people here forgetting about the rest of us?

[jsamuel]

I posted this over a DailyKos, so this is not directed at DU, but I wanted to point to it here:


http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/4/21/12118/3605

I really hope everyone realizes that a gas tax like one proposed by others would destroy a state like Arkansas. A state which is turning VERY blue recently. We have 2 Dem senators and 3/4 Dem congressmen. The Governor is out of terms and the Dem candidate is up by 10 pts over the Republican. Bush's approval rating is lower here than in Florida and other close states in the last few elections.

I am scared that too many people forget about us. They forget about the 40-60% of Dems in rural and traditionally "red" states. We exist. We are not SUV drivers. We are not the stereotype. Stereotypes should not be used by the left either because it misleads us. Stereotypes always lead people to the wrong conclusions.

Arkansas is one of the poorest states in the country. It doesn't matter how much you make, you pay at least 5% on income here. The poor pay most of the state taxes. The lowest income rate is 5%, but the highest is only 10% and only after you make around 40,000 dollars a year. So if you make 50,000, you pay 10%, if you make 5,000,000, you pay 10%. Sales tax pays for much of our programs. We already pay from 9-11% in sales taxes on everything, including food.

I am poor. Many people here are poor. We look for alternative sources of income. We don't have very many jobs. We have to travel to far away places to find good jobs. NW Arkansas is one district and is a decentralized region. It is so decentralized that we are going to outpopulate Little Rock soon without having a city.

There is no public transportation. The city of Fayetteville has a bus, but only because of the University of Arkansas funds it. It only travels in that city, which is more like a town in size (a few square miles). Everyone has to commute to keep their jobs. There is NO alternative. I have tried carpooling, but it is hard to find people who are willing or can carpool who actually live near enough to not waste even more gas. Gas is already costing me 25% of my take home income a month. My rent costs me 50% and electricity and gas cost another 10-15%. Food fills up the rest. If it weren't for my wife having to work extra, we wouldn't be able to pay for everything else (insurance, accidents, unexpected things).

This is not city life and we are Americans. We are the people who will vote Democratic. Please don't forget about us. We are willing to change, just don't economically force people to change in a way that will cause them to lose their jobs. There are 50,000 ways to solve this gas/oil problem. We are smart people. We can figure out a way to solve this problem without huring a vast number of Americans who Democrats have always been there for in the past.

[SeattleGirl]

1. I'm not

There was a thread yesterday on the attitude of some environmentalists cheering rising gas prices. Here is my response:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=971050&mesg_id=971268

BTW, my dad was from Arkansas, and I lived there for awhile as well, plus visited a lot.

[napi21]

2. I'm sorry, I missed something. WHO is proposing increased gas taxes?

I haven't heard that before. I can't even imagine who would commit political suicide by soing that!

[jsamuel]

5. here at DailyKos, Jerome a Paris (he is from France)

and aparently 70% of Kossaks agree with him, to my shock

Gas prices - what's the right strategy for the Dems?
Loser?

[napi21]

12. Remember, in my uestion to you, I asked WHO would commit

political suicide like that? Well, that's exactly what a suggestion like that would be. Jerome is obviously from another country and doesn't understand the Americans very well.

I wouldn't worry about anything like that happening here for a VERY long time!!!!

[jsamuel]

13. yes, but why is it that 70% of those who took that poll at DKOS agreed

with him?

That is what scares me.

[napi21]

15. Oh, who knows? How many voted? 70% of even 1,000 is only 700.

Trust me, you don't need to worry about anything like a gas tax increase! We have some really dumb politicians, but even the dumbest isn't THAT dumb!

[Erika]

3. How would you be willing to change?

What have you done wrong? That statement confounded me.

I will tell you that the South with it's anti-woman and pro radical fundamentalist groups will hurt the South when it comes to tourism and dollars. I hope for your sake that retirees moving in will be a little more open-minded.

Lat year, we took our vacation in San Francisco. This year we are seeing New England.

With all the fundie radicalism in the South, we have no interest. Sorry.

[SeattleGirl]

4. I think you are generalizing a bit too much

Not everyone in the South is racist and anti-woman. And not all racism and anti-women attitudes reside in the South. The OP is asking that we not forget about those in the South like him -- Dems. They should not be forgotten, and they should not be lumped in with these generalizations.

[Erika]

6. But their state governments are

To be honest, I come from a very red state and there are a few blue pockets. But when I'm looking to vacation, every since 2004, we will spend our money in blue states.

I'm not forgetting them, I'm one of them. Locally, I spend my $ with the very few democratic concerns, such as Costco. I empathize with them completely.

[SeattleGirl]

7. Thank you for the clarification.

I just thought your first post stereotyped a large group of people, which is why I responded to it. My dad was from Arkansas, and I spent a lot of time there, and lived in Texas for awhile. There were "Whites Only" and "Coloreds Only" signs on water fountains when I was growing up in Arkansas. And misogynistic attitudes? Oh, yes, definitely. But I also run into racism and anti-women sentiments here in Washington, in Seattle. It just sounded to me like you were lumping those attitudes all in the South, while they are, unfortunately, alive and well in many areas in this country.

:hi:

[jsamuel]

8. hehe, my state government is run by DEMOCRATS

[jsamuel]

9. willing to adopt public transportation

what do you mean about retirees?

[Erika]

10. The South is supposed to be seeing all kind of retirees

Right or wrong?

[jsamuel]

11. Haven't noticed anything in Arkansas (which is south/central anyway)

Seen a bunch of young people moving here though.

[Erika]

14. Liberals or conservatives? n/t

[jsamuel]

17. hehe, both

[Bridget Burke]

22. Well, if liberal folks like you avoid the South....

Surely only Conservative retirees would want to settle here.

[Jane Austin]

16. You make a very good point.

Our country was settled and developed with cheap gasoline and affordable automobiles.

Here in Texas we have very little public transportation. The few trains still here don't go where or when you need to go. Buses are the same, and special interests fight every attempt to put in good transportation systems.

After about five tries, Austin finally passed a light rail issue, but years ago, a public-private consortium wanted to put in high-speed trains connecting the triangle formed by Dallas, Austin and Houston, with a spur from Austin to San Antonio.

There was a lot of interest and support for that high-speed train, but it was defeated by rural residents who thought it would disturb their livestock.

Having ridden the fast train from Paris to Geneva through pastures with contented cows grazing beside the tracks, I always wondered if there weren't some hidden interests stirring up the farmers against the proposal.

Anyway, we don't have much public transportation out here in the states, and the time when it would have been financially easy to do is lont past.

Many, many, many people live in the outlying suburbs of Austin - - Cedar Park, Round Rock, Elgin, Buda and Kyle - - because they just flat can't afford the prices of houses closer in, nor the property taxes on those high appraisals.

Because of this, expensive gas, whether because of taxes or to line the pockets of oil company executives and shareholders, hits those hardest who can least afford it.

Yes, gas taxes that would raise the price to something comparable to Europe would bring on a new depression in rural and heartland America.

[Bridget Burke]

23. Southwest Airlines contributed to the demise of the high speed rail plan..

Who wouldn't rather get on a train in downtown Houston & ride in comfort to downtown Dallas--than use airports in far suburbia & sit like sardines in a can?

It is possible to find alternatives to much auto traffic. But it won't happen quickly. People should not have to go broke in the meantime.

[Jane Austin]

30. Thanks for the reminder about SW Airlines.

You are right - - I'd forgotten that.

And now, of course, Texas is scheduled for a criss-crossing of toll roads some that we've already paid for, courtesy of Republican Gov (Goodhair) Rick Perry.

Grrrrr . . . .


(Edited to add credit to Republicans.) :)

[marions ghost]

18. use increased gas taxes

directly to fund mass transit alternatives. It can be done.

Help poor families for whom this tax is an unfair burden. I would be in favor of a program to provide gas stamps like food stamps.

The OP has described this problem well. You cannot put taxes on gas without addressing the impact on those who are forced to drive long distances to work. That is grossly unfair.

How about the rich and the corporations paying their share of state taxes so we could fund some good mass transit systems? We need all the ground transport we can get in this country. We have been
sold that cars are the only way (with 6 out of 10 jobs directly related to the auto industry).
That there is no help for this situation is just BS. All it takes is less greed and a little creativity.

[jsamuel]

26. see that won't work, it is a bad circular idea

take money from the poor and then hope the system will give it back?

Why not just NOT TAKE AWAY THE MONEY IN THE FIRST PLACE. To me, it is kind of like trying to privatize social security. Social security is a safety net and is guaranteed every check, but you start depositing money in accounts and suddenly that money can just get spent or get used before its time, then what?

Like a posted elsewhere at DKOS, there are other solutions that won't take that money away from the poor.

like a "Gas/oil Insurance Bill" where they will put money aside to help keep gas prices low in case of an emergency, but let gas prices go up more slowly as to prevent a panic and allow people to figure out alternatives. That would accomplish the same thing and it would be INCOME BASED, so poor people wouldn't get stuck with a disproportionate part of the bill.

[marions ghost]

29. well I'm sure there are economist heads

who would have better ideas than me.

I'm just trying to come up with some solutions ...since the oil companies are going to rob the poor and middle class anyway. If you imposed a gas tax that was going directly to public transportation -- then at LEAST there would be some alternatives to cars. I am not in favor of a gas tax if it were to be used for anything else. But the oil company hikes/profits will probably make any rational discussion of gas taxes impossible. We have probably missed the moment where that would be effective, and we are left high and dry with no alternatives to our gas-guzzling vehicles.

I'm sure there are other ideas that would help the poor AND the rapidly sinking middle class hold the line against rising gas prices. I would support any and all of those that would work. I believe in income-based taxation, but tell that to the powers that be in almost any state in the country. They leave it to charitable organizations to try to help the poor, and that is often uneven and inadequate. Definitely I do not favor privatization of govt responsibilites. However we have learned that govt = business at this point anyway.

You are talking about govt controls on energy industries--eg. gas/oil insurance bill? Are you talking about a govt subsidy? Do we trust a government that has completely sold out to business interests to manage this? Isn't there an undue trust in the system in this idea also?

[eppur_se_muova]

35. You don't have to do it all at once -- do it incrementally.

That's usually the best way to make such large, far-reaching changes. And it can be started off with a bond issue. But you need civic leaders who are willing to tackle such things. As long as gas has been cheap, there's been no incentive to plan for the time when it is no longer.

Many cities -- and not every one of them large -- in this country once had very nice mass transportation systems, but they were run by private companies which were bought up by GM and other car makers in the post-WWII years and put out of business, one by one. Mass transportation worked just fine in the past, but all that planning and effort was wiped out, and almost no one tried to stop it.

[Joe Fields]

19. Rural staters seem to like voting social, not economic issues.

All the republican party has to do to keep rural staters in line is tell them that democrats are going to take their guns away and allow gays to marry. For some reason it works.

[marions ghost]

20. yes but that

was when they could afford to be distracted by smokescreen issues. I think this next election will indicate how much these same folks are thinking 'it's the economy stupid...' Our fearful Leader promised not to increase gas prices in his emphasis on control of oil...he has broken a sacred vow.

[Joe Fields]

21. Things could change. It will be interesting to see what happens

this time around. I believe the time is right, and many people are waking up to the reality that they have been played like a violin. And not just rural staters. Many Americans who voted republican.

[Bridget Burke]

24. Define "rural staters"....

The truly rural folks don't rely on the automobile as much as suburbanites do.

What's the biggest metropolis in Missouri? Branson?

[justice1]

25. St. Louis

[jsamuel]

27. Kansas City

[huskerlaw]

32. St. Louis, which has

horrible traffic issues, including ridiculously long commutes in from the suburbs.

And Kansas City isn't a picnic at rush hour either.

[huskerlaw]

33. To respond to your other point

perhaps those who live in extremely rural areas don't depend on their personal cars as much, but they are perhaps even more affected by gas prices.

Ever had to gas up a tractor? A combine? A grain truck? Those are mostly diesel, which is even more expensive than regular.

[jsamuel]

28. how many Arkansan's voted the way you said in 2004? 54%?

DON'T IGNORE THE OTHER 45%! You act like we don't exist.

Gore is from TN!

[Jane Austin]

31. That's a gross generalization.

The three rural towns near me all voted for Kerry in 04.

That would be Bastrop, Elgin and Taylor, Texas.

The precincts within the city limits went blue. Elgin has a population of around 5000. Bastrop is bigger and Taylor is smaller, I think.

I take your point, but it's not completely black and white.

[mdmc]

34. Does Arkansas really have 2 dem senators?

:wow:

[jsamuel]

37. yes, not always on our side of the isle, but pretty good for AR

Pryor and Lincoln

[mdmc]

40. wow!

I had no idea!

[philosophie_en_rose]

36. Gas tax is not enough. We need excise taxes on luxury vehicles and SUVs.

A gas tax is not enough, unless part of the money is invested in social services such as health care or public transit.

A gas tax is not enough, because the rich don't give a rat's ass and the poor need to get to work.

There ought to be categories of vehicles, based on fuel economy. If you drive a new car that is a gas-guzzling SUV, you ought to pay more into the system.

[jsamuel]

38. they want to tax hybrids instead because "they aren't paying their fair

share"

Those evil bastards...

[catmandu57]

39. Instead of taxing people

Let's go after the fucking oil companies and the obscene profits they make. 36 billion dollars for exxon alone, for three months last year, that's just ridiculous.

[misternormal]

41. As a fellow Arkansan, and a Dem...

... I am behind you 110%

On a side note... The last time the gas prices neared $3.00 a gal here, there was a news story about it, and a woman who was a passenger in a Hummer... IMO one of the most unnecessary vehicles ever produced for the civilian market... was quoted as saying, when asked about the price of gas... "It's no big deal, there will just be a little less money in the bank, that's all". (I will hold back my own comments on that statement.)