This is weird...I'm actually getting pumped up about my Iraq deployment

[Squatch]

Sure, it's going to suck to be away from my family for a year, but this is what I've devoted the last 10 years of my life to. I am proud to be able to finally pitch in and deploy with my soldiers who I've mentored, trained, and grew with.

I think the current OPTEMPO is going to be good for our Army in the long run. A few years ago, only about 1 in 20 of my peers had any combat/operational experience (Panama, Desert Storm, Somalia), but that has definitely changed. Now, about 1 in 20 does NOT have any practical experience in the application of military science. That flux of experience is going to go a long way toward helping our Army transform from the "legacy" maneuver warfare force toward a more flexible force that can be applied along the entire Civil/Military spectrum of operations.

It's definitely an exciting time to be a part of the military.

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. No it is not

you are psyching yourself for this... that is normal

By the way, do me a favor, remember to DUCK!

[NotGivingUp]

229. hey, squatch, do me a favor....tell all the people you will be shooting at to duck, too! eom

[nadinbrzezinski]

239. If they are actively shooting at him

Well never mind

It would be like arguing why you cannot refuse legal lawful orders to go to a war that is legal under any legal definition of it, regardless of how you and I may feel about it, alas feelings have no legal standing.

Oh and by the way, if they are actively shooting at him, he has full rights to defend himself, strange concept that you may have a problem comprehending

[NotGivingUp]

244. BTW...he's pumped up...to go and kill people...you see nothing wrong with this?

...a mighty strange concept that YOU may have a problem comprehending. oh, just in case you didn't know, it's not just the ones who will be shooting at him that will be killed...or that will have their families killed...or their homes and towns destroyed...try to wrap your mind around the concept of that shit going on right here in the good ol' u.s.a. how about your town...how about your home...your family? now that's a concept you could try to wrap you mind around.

[nadinbrzezinski]

245. No he is pumped up to go on a deployment

Troops are not pumped up about killing people.

Unless you've served (and I have as a medic, in somebody else's military, but still had plenty of idiots shoot at me, in AN AMBULANCE), you'll never get it. I wish I could see the world in the black and white that is your world, but having gotten shot at in a non combatant vehicle in the middle of a combat zone, I guess my naivete went out the window, huh?

I guess next stupid statement you will make is that troops eat the kids they kill too, some catchup and oh boy wonderful with the MRE, right?

by the way part of his responsibility is to ensure that troops DO NOT get out of control, and do things that we all are later ashamed off

Having been an officer as well I understand the AWESOME responsibility that implies. Them railroad tracks are not just for show. Good leaders prevent wanton killings, bad leaders encourage them.

I also understand this little tidbit you seem incapable off, troops DO NOT make policy, civilians do. Take your gripes at the current leadership of the CIVILIAN government.

Oh and one last thing, having been IN A COMBAT ZONE, I don't have to wrap my mind about civilians getting affected... seen it, treated them.

Damn it folks you make assumptions that are just astounding at times, but the world is not black and white and the toops do NOT, I repeat this, DO NOT make policy, it is your civilian leadership that makes policy.

Oh and it bears repeating, war is hell... and we, yes you and me skippy, are responsbible for allwoing OUR CIVILIAN LEADERSHIP to slip the dogs of war

[NotGivingUp]

247. enough of your sarcasm. this whole WAR is something to be ashamed of. eom

[nadinbrzezinski]

250. In other words

I could really not face it

I am responsible to bring the troops home and claiming that the troops get joy out of killing is what you just did, and I debunked that.

I call it cold reality

That said, I'm not in favor of the war, but I DO UNDERSTAND SOMETHING YOU HAVE YET TO ADDRESS, the war fighter does NOT make policy, the civilians in charge do

Take your very valid criticism to the LEADERSHIP, as in the CIVILIAN LEADERSHIP.

By the way I am not being sarcastic when I say that I wish I could see the world in the black and white way you do, but having been there done that, as quite the idealist and come back quite the realist, it is hard for me to accept your berating of troops.

[Ariana Celeste]

256. pumped up to kill people?

what the fuck is wrong with you?

yeah people are getting killed out there and its a tragedy, this never should have been started to begin with, but in all seriousness- fuck you for assuming Squatch is pumped up to kill people

i know 4 people who have gone, are going, or are already in Iraq, and the last thing they want/wanted is to kill people!

save your self righteous anger for the officials who sent our men and women to Iraq in the first place

[Katherine Brengle]

2. Not sure what to say...

other than good luck and hope you get home safe.

[Mojambo]

3. I sincerely hope your experience is such that you can continue to feel this positive

in the weeks and months ahead.

Best of luck.

[JerseygirlCT]

19. Ditto. nt

[Redstone]

4. Would you mind a few words of advice?

1) Keep your head down.

2) He who fights and runs away, lives to fight another day. (In other words, you can't win in any sense of the word if you get dead trying to win EVERY time.)

3) It is NOT your job to die for your country. I'd put the rest of Patton's saying here as well, but it doesn't work for this situation.

4) Remember, you're going to be in someone else's country, and they did NOT invite you there. Therefore, be mindful of their sensibilities, and also be very careful all the time.

5) Keep your head down.

6) Come home alive and with all the parts you went there with. Do we have a deal on this?

Redstone

[Parche]

5. REDSTONE

Yes, exactly what he said......... and keep safe

[tom_paine]

8. How can I say any better than what Redstone said? Let me second that good advice!

[Squatch]

11. Thanks, guys!

I appreciate your advice and will take it to heart...as well as pass it along to my troops.

[benddem]

22. ditto

especially Keep your head down, stay safe.

Combat isn't really very exciting. It is seriously scary.

[Monkeyman]

24. If you don't do this I will find your butt and kick it thats a order son

[Squatch]

25. Sir, yes sir!

[Nickster]

45. Amen. Sage words of advice. God speed. n/t

[Cerridwen]

56. Yeah, what Redstone said. Oh, and let me add

7) Keep your head down.

And when in doubt, see #1, #5 and the newly added #7, please.

[Redstone]

74. And repeat #7 as #8, #9, and #10 as necessary.

What's the old saying? "There are old soldiers, and bold soldiers, but there are no old, bold soldiers."

It's still true, isn't it. I learned that when I wasn't EVEN a soldier. But I was with, and among, and as one with, those who were soldiers and had to become one myself even without the benefit of training. I was even Blue 32 for a while after he got his, despite not having the faintest idea how to do what he did. Combat is its own universe, isn't it?

Redstone

[nadinbrzezinski]

241. With its own smells, its own fears and its own rules

all of which are thanfully foreign to civies

[Hekate]

281. What Redstone said. Stay safe, be honorable, come home in one piece. We're counting on it.

And your family is counting on it. :hug:

Hekate

[Straight Shooter]

6. "It's definitely an exiting time to be a part of the military."

"Exiting"? Squatch, I think you just experienced a Freudian slip. :D

:patriot:

[Squatch]

7. LOL...nice catch.

[razors edge]

9. Military science?

After four years in the marines and twenty out, I think that the real science of military pursuits do not extend far from the original blunt force trauma learned by the cavemen.

But I would have gone in an instant and never questioned why myself.

Be safe soldier.

[ewoden]

10. Is this your first deployment to Iraq?

Were you deployed to Afghanistan?
Have you been deployed to combat any time previously?

If not, well, take it from one who was tapped in the late 60's and did three tours, who's father served in combat in Europe and Korea, who's father's father served in both the Phillipines and Europe in WW1. . . you ain't seen nothin yet :-)

My son redeployed for Iraq, one tour in the 'Stan now working on two in Iraq. I'd love for him to tell you how it is, how great it is to have that combat experience. Unfortunately I have not heard from in four weeks now. He was not ready to go back, but then again one seldom really is.

I wish you all of God's speed and blessings in your deployment. I hope that you come through unscathed.

[Squatch]

13. Your son is in my thoughts and prayers.

Thanks for your kind words.

[ewoden]

26. It's real but it won't be kind

You've been told what to expect in combat. You've had field problems to solve. You have had squad and platoon tactictal problems to test you. You've studied up on your logistics train and the roles of your Company HQ. You know your waepons systems. Your com gear and chain is well understood and you have the freqs and codes in your head. You've had your shots, your daily daily's, and your feet are dry and powdered. You are as ready as any cherry can be.

Remember this, There Is No Live Fire Exercise that prepares you for the visceral realization that the round that just snapped by your head in combat was actually, really, definately intended to end your life. What you decide to do, in that next few seconds following that realization, will likely determine much of your experience for the reminder of your combat experience.

God Bless You.

[Squatch]

29. Amen.

:thumbsup:

[brer cat]

61. You are very strong, ewoden!

My thoughts and prayers for your son.

And for you :hug:

[FtWayneBlue]

12. "It's definitely an exiting time to be a part of the military."

I wish our soldiers were exiting from Iraq.

I wish that we were bring them all home, now, not sending more.

I wish that war was obsolete in this 21st century, and we put our resources into social and environmental tactics, not military ones.

That said,

I wish you a safe tour of duty, and a swift return back to your loved ones.

[bigtree]

14. keep your head down soldier

and try to stay alert.

best of luck.

[11 Bravo]

15. OOO RAH, bro.

Your response is not only healthy, it's conducive to your safety. Adrenalin is your friend. I remember going on R&R in '71, and the nearer I got to the end of it, and the closer I came to heading back into the A Shau, the more amped up I got. You sound like an officer. If you care to listen to an old draftee who only mustered out as a sergeant because other good men got lit up, remember, lead from the front, and listen to your platoon sergeant(s).

[Squatch]

21. My wife and I are already planning R&R...

I trust my sergeants explicitly. I'm tough on them, but fair. They know that when it's time to work...it's time to work. They have delivered nothing but the absolute best.

Now, my LTs...I'm going to have to work on them a bit. :)

[11 Bravo]

35. Good luck, sir. I haven't saluted anyone for over 30 years ...

but I am braced and snapping one off. (Sorry about the sir, but old habits die hard, and officers who truly rate their bars, leaves, eagles, and stars, are always deserving of my respect, even if I might be old enough to be their father.) You sound like such an officer. I will keep you in my thoughts.

[Squatch]

41. When were you in Vietnam?

After my Dad died, I grabbed his lensatic compass. He said it saved his life while he was over there (173rd ABN BDE). Over the past 10 years (holy crap, has it been that long?), whenever I feel torn about something, I look at that compass, do some soul searching, and try to visualize how my Dad would tackle the problem. So far, that little compass has steered me in the right direction.

I salute you, too, sir, and thank you for all you've done. If you're ever in the DC area, please PM me and beers are on me.

[11 Bravo]

52. '70 - '71.

Operation Texas Star in late '70, and Lam Son 719 in early '71. War is Hell, but combat is a mother-fucker.

[sanskritwarrior]

119. LOL

aint that the fucking truth.........

[AwakeAtLast]

79. That's exactly how my husband felt about his SGs

and they got him home safely in June 06. Stay safe and I will be keeping you and your family in my thoughts.

Good luck! :patriot:

[nadinbrzezinski]

242. Just turn them over to your sergeants for a day

that will do the trick....

:-)

Stay safe Captain.

[deutsey]

89. I've never been in the military but I thought the same thing as you say here

about this being a healthy response.

Thank both of you for your service. :patriot:

[Suich]

16. A little help for a "non-military" person, please?

what's OPTEMPO?

[Squatch]

23. Operational Tempo

The pace of current "big military" operations

[Suich]

31. Thanks!

Stay safe please!

[blue cat]

17. Good Luck

and keep us informed about how you are.

[More Than A Feeling]

18. Hopefully we can make it so that you have to come back safely and quick.

All the luck in the world to keep you safe!

[Qanisqineq]

20. I wish you luck

and hope you come back in one piece and healthy of mind. My husband came back from Iraq in 2004 and has not been the same since. To put it simply, he hates everyone now, is depressed, and is quite unbearable to be around.

[texanwitch]

34. I have friends who have been to Iraq, not the same people when they return.

They all drink to much, are angry, and have sleeping problems.

I don't know my friends now, and they are hard to be around.

Two of them have talked to me about what they have seen or done, they can't handle it now.

I wish you the best of luck, just remember you not going to camp but to a war.

[Cabcere]

39. My thoughts & prayers are with your friends, texanwitch. n/t

:grouphug:

[texanwitch]

42. Thank you Cabcere.

My friends are not in good shape, they need help but you know about the VA.

All they get is drugs, no other help.

I am really worried they might kill themselves, they are that bad off.

I won't repeat what I was told by my friends but it was some bad stuff.

I worry for all our troops, this war is killing them one way or another.

[Qanisqineq]

67. yeah, he's not the same at all

He doesn't drink but he is angry and sleeps all the time and doesn't want to be around anyone. He denies that he is any different now. For the first year or two I felt saddened by it but now it is hard to not be angry when he is so difficult to be around.

[nadinbrzezinski]

251. Read this thread

that is part of the problem...

Troops who see combat are not the same, but they are also coming back to a country that is not even aware it is at war.

or the few who are, blame the troops instead of the leaders for what has happened

[uppityperson]

261. What?

They come "back to a country that is not even aware it is at war". Do you mean Iraq or USA? Which of these countries is not aware it is at war?

[nadinbrzezinski]

277. the United States

When 95% of the population has not been touched and has continued to shop... yep I live in a military town and that is one thing I hear from many kids

Nobody cares to hear what happened on the rare occasion they wish to speak... well almost nobody.

[uppityperson]

283. Intellectually "aware" but it hasn't touched them personally, so shop on.

I got it. Read the news, watch tv, listen to radio, think "that is really bad" but haven't yet been personally touched. Yet. People are still too insulated about much of what happens to other people other places in their city, state, country, world. Remembering back when news wasn't instantaneous, took days to come out, or even further back when it took weeks, months. Humanity has not evolved socially much. peace to all

[nadinbrzezinski]

286. You're the exeption not the average american

I'm serious there.

Most people are not even that aware in this coutry that we are at war... and you know what, they don't want to either

I work hard very hard to keep up with what is going on in the world and in my own country, but Americans are insular by nature, and the media ain't helping

And the troops feel that when they come home... a lack of care... a lack of interset and in rare cases outright hostility

[Cabcere]

37. Sorry to hear about your husband, Qanisqineq

:hug: My thoughts and prayers are with you as well. :hug:

[Cabcere]

27. Take care of yourself, Squatch

I'll be praying for you and your fellow soldiers. :patriot:

That said, I don't want to sound like a nagging mum or anything, but please, PLEASE be careful! :hug: I just returned from the funeral of one of my friends, a nineteen-year-old Marine who had only six weeks left in Iraq when he was killed. :cry: So take care of yourself and your fellow soldiers - I think I probably speak for most of us here when I say that I am very grateful for, and proud of, our military, and I wish for a safe return for all of you. :patriot: :hug: :loveya:

[pa28]

28. Stay in touch if you can.

Sounds like you are taking a positive approach to this and I hope your men follow suit. Hopefully you can make things better over there in your own way.

[Bonobo]

30. Since no one else is saying it, I will:

You will be entering someone else's country.

Just like when you visit someone else's home, remember to be on your best behavior.

Remember that you represent our country.

Try not do anything that would reflect badly on this country or its people. This includes killing, wounding, frightening, taunting, verbally bullying, etc. of citizens of the ancient, sovereign nation of Iraq. It also includes not shooting dogs, destroying other people's property, not acting like you can flaunt laws (including traffic laws even if its "expedient")

Naturally we ALL want you and your companions to be safe while you do all of the above.

Getting combat experience should not be your main goal.

[Redstone]

44. And may I add that one good way to get along with people is to eat with them?

Especially in an Arab country, it's a Big Deal to let them feed you. So refuse the ritual two or three times if offered, but then stay and eat.

Middle Eastern food is pretty damn tasty, too, so you'll be glad you did.

Redstone

[Bonobo]

46. That is a GREAT suggestion. Also SMOKE with them!

[Squatch]

47. That might get me in trouble.

:)

[Bonobo]

54. I didn't mean hash, Squatch, just tobacco with some flavoring...

It's a very tasty smoke they do with their hookahs. Tobacco flavored with some citrus peels, stuff like that I think.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hookah

[Redstone]

55. He meant tobacco. It IS an important social ritual in that part of the world, remember that.

Redstone

[The Straight Story]

Back when I was a deputy sharing a smoke saved many an issue

I used to bring in nice cigars from the local tinderbox and trade em with inmates for cigarettes - most the guys I worked around at nights didn't give me any crap because they knew I wouldn't bring em any good smokes.

We would hang out for a few while I did my rounds, trade, smoke, and if there was trouble brewing I usually knew about it ahead of time (most cells had 10-20 guys in em and problems could arise easily when no one was back there on the floor).

Now, inmates nor deputies can smoke in the jail. Glad I am not working there anymore :)

[Breeze54]

107. They also smoke Hash there.... and then there's

also a lot of heroin available...

[nadinbrzezinski]

246. You can do tea and coffee

and that may be critical... and both are extremely good in the ME

[Redstone]

53. Yes, indeed. "Smoke 'em if you got 'em; them as can't smoke, go through the motions."

Redstone

[sanskritwarrior]

120. Can't smoke the hookah

General Order number 1 and all.......But we can eat the food and drink the tea.......WOW the tea......

[Leopolds Ghost]

237. It's important to be able to fraternize with the population.

Just so long as you are not being ordered to bash in their doors
or quarter in their houses, actions which are unproductive.

[Leopolds Ghost]

236. It also means not following illegal orders.

Unfortunately, the war in Iraq is an aggressive occupation, hence Illegal.

And also un-Christian, according to the Pope.

Not sure if it's possible to get "pumped up about that." :shrug:

[bdamomma]

32. my prayers are with you.

[DawgHouse]

33. Stay safe!

I wish you well and appreciate your service.

[Rex]

36. Keep your head down and good luck.

Might as well go over there pumped up and feeling positive, instead of dread and apprehension. You'll finally be able to help defend your brothers and sisters!

Be safe!

[chknltl]

38. a fellow DUer over there

Although I feel profoundly horrible for anyone going over there on account of bushco, I feel it is critical that the American public gets eyewitness accounts unfettered by partisan spin. If you can, keep us here in the DU posted.



chknltl

[leftynyc]

84. Thoughts and prayers for you as well (eom)

[Solly Mack]

40. Not weird at all. I'd say it was par for the course

Stay safe

[libnnc]

43. I don't want any of you to go. But I know you have to.

Please try to stay safe. Hope you get to come home soon.

:toast: :hug:

[Leopolds Ghost]

238. Actually nobody has to fight in Iraq. Remember: a king may move a man

"But when you are ordered by kings, or men of power, remember:
Your immortal soul belongs to you alone." --Kingdom of Heaven

The issue here is that Squatch promised to serve, and in most
cultures, a promise is of an older order of morality than the
principles of New Testament pacifism or just-war theory.

[Breeze54]

48. A healthy dose of fear is a good thing.

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

49. ...And the "science" part of this military action would be...?

Not to rain on the parade of an American soldier willing to do their duty, and I hope you are successful in all you do while there, but I'm sure you know quite well what the military term "clusterfuck" means...

[Canuckistanian]

50. Um, this is not a "normal" deployment

As far as a proper "application of military science" is concerned.

The military has no business being in this situation, namely, in the middle of a domestic civil war. As an outsider.

You'll find no sympathy from the people you're sent to help and very little from those that sent you.

And God help you if you become injured.

Death would be preferable.

[GrantDem]

51. Stay safe....

My prayers are with you and your family.

:patriot:

[magellan]

57. Take good care, Squatch

And keep that positive attitude. This Navy girl sends you a salute and a big ol' :hug:.

[shadowknows69]

58. I've met many like you Squatch

and though I loathe this war, I have nothing but respect for our warriors. Serve with honor sir, you represent all of us. Be safe and Godspeed.

[Bucky]

59. Thanks for serving for us, Squatch. Godspeed and stay whole in there.

Honestly, you grunts surprise the hell out of me sometimes. I never end up talking to a soldier or Marine without coming away feeling a little bit better about my country, for all its faults and blindspots. Which is an odd contrast to how I feel after talking to ex-airmen.

[Bronyraurus]

60. Good luck, Squatch!

I hope it passes quickly and you're back home safely soon!

[NoPasaran]

62. Keep your head down and come back safe

:patriot:

[brer cat]

63. Thank you for serving, Squatch.

Your courage in the face of deployment is very professional and admirable.

God speed, and may you come home healthy in mind and body.

From DU to you: :grouphug:

[immoderate]

64. Live long and prosper.

Can't add to the good advice in this thread. Keep us posted if you can.

--IMM

[babylonsister]

65. Oh, I wish I hadn't read this. I'm happy if you're happy, Squatch, but

we will all worry about you.
What Redstone Said! Print it up and hand it out!
Keep in touch, and please! stay safe!
Ruth
:hug:

[IndyOp]

66. What you are about to do, what your troops do, does not keep us safe -

You put us in danger. Deploying to Iraq puts us in danger. 700+ military bases around the world put us in danger. The continuation of the empire - which is what you are allowing - is immoral. You are serving a President who says that "Money trumps peace" -- $$ trumps your life -- $$ trumps the lives of the Iraqis whose deaths you will contribute to.

You are putting us in danger. Have the courage to refuse to serve.

SIR, NO SIR!
SIR, NO SIR!
SIR, NO SIR!

To all the sheeple on this board who are sighing about how Squatch "has to go do this" -- did the German soldiers have to go do what they had to go do? Sure. It's all about loyalty to one's nation. Morality be damned.

"It's definitely an exciting time to be a part of the military." Blood and guts and veins between your teeth? Kill! Kill! Kill!

Have the courage to refuse to serve. Tell your troops to do the same. This is an illegal and immoral war. SIR, NO SIR!

I wish you safety. I wish you peace. I do not wish you success with your mission. I do not respect the current OPTEMPO. What will be good for our army in the long term will be to pull every single member of the military back within our borders as Major General Smedley Butler recommended. After that we need the international community to pass a law similar to the one crafted for Germany after WWII -- so that the American military can never be used except on our own soil in our own defense.

"I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just and that his justice cannot sleep forever." Thomas Jefferson

[Lydia Leftcoast]

69. I'm with IndyOp

During the Vietnam War, there used to be a poster that said, "What if they gave a war and nobody came?"

We need more soldiers refusing to go.

If more soldiers had refused to go to Vietnam, most of the 50,000 combat casualities of my generation would still be alive.

War is not an adventure. It's not a way of proving one's masculinity. It's not an application of military science. It's not protecting freedom. It's not serving one's country. It's not kicking ass.

Most wars--and this one in particular--are fought because the leaders of one country want what another country has.

There is NOTHING glorious about it. It's murder and theft on a larger scale, dressed up as patriotism.

I don't want anything bad to happen to you, but I wish more young men and women showed REAL courage and refused to go into this unholy mess.

Stay safe, treat the locals as you would like to be treated by an invading army, and don't let the people under you abuse them, either.

[Redstone]

77. In which reality do you live? He has a choice: Go for a year, or rot in Leavenworth

for at least ten-to-fifteen.

Do YOU live with those choices? If not, then it's not for YOU to judge, is it?

Redstone

[noamnety]

80. Some don't do any time, some have served less than a year.

And some are in Canada.

Not that he sounds like he wants to resist, but I don't see the point in misrepresenting the typical sentence, other than silly scare tactics.

The ones I know who served time and have already been released don't express any regrets over that decision. Wish I could say the same for their experiences in Iraq.

[IndyOp]

96. Redstone - With respect, it is for me to speak up...

I am not judging him. I do not condemn him for his choice. I am speaking up to say that I believe his choice is wrong. Very wrong.

"I was just following orders." "I was serving my country." "I was obeying the laws of the land." "The punishment for desertion from the military was death." <- These should ring in all of our ears from the Good Germans who were tried at Nuremberg.

The groupthink that exists around war and service in the military is extremely strong - everyone must think one way or they are evil.

I do my best to break through the groupthink everytime I encounter it re: military service.

My father and three uncles served in WWII. My cousin Gene served in Korea and his sons have served in Iraq. My cousin Mac served in Vietnam. All of these wars were the same shit - just a different shovel.

If someone does not have the courage to disobey immoral orders they should not join the military.

Peace.

[sanskritwarrior]

121. LOL

forgive me if I don't really want your special type of support.

(success is bringing everyone home that you left with) you said you wished him to not have success. I know you didn't mean you want his men killed but you need to understand. We have a duty and until the PEOPLE and the FRAKKING CONGRESS do something to make the nightmare go away, don't get upset when we DO OUR FRAKKING DUTY........

Now in reality I'm not mad at all, I'm just tired of explaining to people how this works and having people say I am immoral, a proto fascist, a robotic drone, and all kinds of other things I have been called by DUers in 3 months......It gets kind of grating, you know?? :)

[IndyOp]

128. Bullshit. You not have to do your frakking duty -

The motive that troops have to do their duty that I understand best is the motive to protect the people in your unit - to not abandon your friends. I understand that and I believe it is horribly short-sighted.

If you refuse to serve you give courage to others to refuse to serve. The Vietnam War ended, not because of protesters on the streets and not because Congress did something about it -- the Vietnam War ended when soldiers started refusing orders to participate in an illegal and immoral war. Had they done it a little earlier - had my cousin Jimmy have had the courage to do it himself - he might've lived to see his sons grow up and we, as a nation, would not have to live with the knowledge that we contributed to the deaths of 2-3 million Indochinese people.

SIR! NO, SIR!

[sanskritwarrior]

130. Yes and then

we have injected ourselves into American civil policy making. That is not our place. We have a job to do and any soldier that refuses to serve is not my ally. I don't want this war, but it is not our damn job to end it. That's your job, we do not need to be making decisions that affect policy, that's your job. We do not need to tell the govt. what we are willing to do or not do, that's your job. For Christ sakes, can't you see what could happen in the future if the military decides it can tell the civilian govt. what for???? And you call me shortsighted.........

[noamnety]

147. OMG! What would happen in the future?!

We'd probably stop invading other countries which haven't attacked us, something we seem to have been doing nearly ever year since we've been in existence. The horror!

In essense, what I'm hearing is: "we will kill whomever we are told to kill, and it's our duty not to think about whether or not what we have done to these people is ethical."

The problem is that when you leave Iraq and return home, at some point your ethics will return home too.

[sanskritwarrior]

179. Thanks for the vote of confidence

I'm sorry your military experience was negative. We are not robots nor are we drones. We have a duty to perform whether we have good leaders or bad. Sorry you disagree.

[noamnety]

202. "We are not robots nor are we drones. "

We just blindly follow orders without regard to the morality of those orders. And we're taught that THAT is the NEW morality.

[nadinbrzezinski]

131. Have you EVER been in uniform?

if you ever were, you'd understand that until this damn war is declared ilegal, and it has not... an order to deploy is a LEGAL ORDER

I suspect you also thing troops can put roses on their rifles and just turn them in and go home

[IndyOp]

132. Your personal attack on me will not change the fact

that what we need now are for extra-ordinarily courageous troops to refuse to serve in this illegal and immoral war.

Troops are being prosecuted now for following legal orders that required them to break human rights conventions -> Abu Ghraib.

If someone is unable to tell the difference between legal and illegal orders and/or unwilling to DISOBEY IMMORAL, LEGAL orders then they should never have joined the military.

Have I ever been in uniform? Hell, no. When is this nation ever going to learn that our military - particularly since WWII, but even before, has been used over and over and over to destroy the lives and hope of innocent people around the world who happen to have been CURSED by being born on a patch of land rich in natural resources.

I think I recall that your husband is career military. I don't judge him for serving. I will not say that I support his service or that of anyone else in the U.S. military. I don't support my father's service or my cousin's service in Vietnam -- they were wrong to serve. I support conscientious objectors.

<i>(To the extent that on extremely rare occasions the military has been used for good - we could've trained and sent Red Cross teams).</i>

[nadinbrzezinski]

212. ok let me point a fact for you

the war, as much as I agree with you is illegal and immoral, has not been declared such by any national or international body...

What is more, the war president has all the LEGAL cover to order troops LEGALLY into the field. this cover was given to him by both the US Congress and the UN Security Council, I know facts are stubborn.

Until that changes, troops do NOT make policy, they follow it

You want that to change, elect politicos that WILL CHANGE the LEGAL STANDING of the war

As to personal attacks, that wasn't, it was a statement of fact. I would not have to explain this little reality from ANY army in the world if you had worn ANY uniform.

[sanskritwarrior]

180. Thanks naderbrzenski

fighting this stupidity every day is taxing....Glad to see there are others that understand THE LAW........

[Marrah_G]

232. Sanskrit, some advice

There are people out there who just think refusing orders is the answer. Nothing is going to change their view. I would be willing to bet the majority of the people do understand that it is your job and are proud to have good men and women in uniform, rather then a military of right wing fundementalists (we'd really be in trouble then). Just hold your head high and realize that you guys are on two different sides of an arguement that neither will budge from. If someones comments irritate you to much then just ignore them rather then beating your head against a brick wall.

[nadinbrzezinski]

240. You welcome

but bear in mind some of these folks have had a problem wtih this since oh Nam... so it is a long LONG time

Troops do not make policy, and boy they really have no clue what it means when troops start making policy

[Leopolds Ghost]

268. WRONG. A king may move a man

But your soul belongs to you alone.

If Squatch goes into Iraq, he does not go with God.

[Redstone]

129. "Same shit, different shovel." How right you are, indeed. I cannot argue even ONE point

point in your post. (Except the "groupthink" comment; I don't believe that we at DU engage in that, as the replies in this thread will confirm.)

Take another look at the posts in this thread, if you will; Most of them strike me as saying to squatch "you're stuck in a lousy position, so make the best of it that you can."

Remember, even with the MASSIVE opposition to the war in Viet Nam, the govermnent went on doing what it wanted to anyway. Even with VVAW, and the highe demonstrations, and the high rates of AWOL and desertion, NOTHING changed the government's direction.

They just don't fucking care. They still send us off to die. For nothing.

I don't know how to change that. Yes, in some cases, one person can make a big difference (Rosa Parks). but in the case of the US government's constant wilingness to kill its sons and daughters for nothing, there does not seem to be anything that any way that one, or ten, or even ten million can bring about a change.

All those dead in Viet Nam. For nothing.

The dead in Grenada. For nothing.

The dead in Panama. For nothing.

The Marines dead in Beirut. For nothing.

The dead in Somalia. For nothing.

The dead in Iraq. For nothing.

Redstone

[Bronyraurus]

134. What a load!

"If someone does not have the courage to disobey immoral orders they should not join the military."

Immoral to whom? The only people who should join the military are those who do obey orders, unless flagrantly illegal, like intentionally harming civilians. Soldiers get information about what orders they are allowed to resist.

Otherwise, the entire armed forces would collapse. There's no real room in the armed forces for individual judgments of what's right and wrong.

[IndyOp]

149. If you are right, then the armed forces should collapse -

"There's no real room in the armed forces for individual judgments of what's right and wrong."

I am sure that Lt. Calley would agree with that statement. My Lai - and the 100's? 1,000's? - of similar massacres in Vietnam were perfectly justified according to Lt. Calley. They weren't intentionally harming civilians - they were only driving Viet Cong out of the villages and killing them. How did they know all of those people were Viet Cong? They were dead. So they must've been Viet Cong. Besides, they had to boost the kill numbers to impress the top brass.


I am grateful that Hugh Thompson DID dare to come to his own individual judgment of what was right and what was wrong:
Mr Thompson and his crew came upon US troops killing civilians at the village of My Lai on 16 March 1968. He put his helicopter down between the soldiers and villagers, ordering his men to shoot their fellow Americans if they attacked the civilians. "There was no way I could turn my back on them," he later said of the victims.... But Mr Thompson was shunned for years by fellow soldiers, received death threats, and was once told by a congressman that he was the only American who should be punished over My Lai. More

Wake up and smell the rotting corpses. In WWI the kill ratio of troops to civilians was 90% troops to 10% civilians. In "modern warfare" the kill ratio is much closer to 10% troops to 90% civilians - according to Howard Zinn and Gino Strada, surgeon and author of "Green Parrots" -

Nine out of 10 casualties in war zones are civilians, not soldiers, war surgeon and pacifist Dr. Gino Strada told a crowded Salomon 001 on Monday night. Strada described his experiences providing medical care to war victims in countries ranging from Iraq and Afghanistan to Sierra Leone and Cambodia.

Strada began by apologizing to the audience for the graphic nature of the images he planned to show. His photographs were representative of war in parts of the world "where the needs were huge and the resources almost absent," he said. Throughout his lecture, Strada repeatedly emphasized that ever since World War I, civilians rather than soldiers have been bearing the brunt of war, regardless of its nature or location.

War surgeon describes civilian casualties of combat

So -- this is what our soldiers do --> 90% of the people they kill are civilians -- and you do not believe that individual judgments of right and wrong are appropriate?

I think it is way past time to end all wars - but one like this - a war for oil, a war for money, a war for power - this IS a war crime - one long war crime.

[Bronyraurus]

156. Very clever

My Lai is the definition of intentionally and illegally harming civilians, despite your denials.

[uppityperson]

158. I think you misread as was saying it was illegal.

you missed the point. totally.

[Bronyraurus]

161. No, I got your point

Your point was My Lai happens every day and the military justifies it. Well, it doesn't happen every day, My Lai is an eternal shame and stain on the US armed forces, and soldiers have a duty to refuse those orders. They also have a duty to go to war when called.

[uppityperson]

164. You also missed who posted that as it wasn't me.

[Bronyraurus]

168. Gotcha

Well, regardless, I didn't miss anyone's point. Totally. Although I'm not sure I understand your post because it doesn't make grammatical sense.

[sanskritwarrior]

167. Exactly.........

could not have said it better myself....The military bashing continues..........

[Bronyraurus]

170. It's a gas, ain't it?

[uppityperson]

174. Questioning is bashing?

talking about options is bashing? :eyes:

[sanskritwarrior]

176. Saying my lai happens everday

and that the military covers it up is bashing......doesn't matter who said it, it aint true......

[uppityperson]

178. Incidents happen often, the military covers it up.

eventually much is found out, but not all. Fact. Not bashing.

[sanskritwarrior]

182. Does a my lai happen everyday?

we aren't talking hypotheticals. Someone made a substantive charge. Do you say it is true? If so can you provide evidence to the daily My Lai sweepstakes and where it takes place?

[uppityperson]

185. I did not claim this. I doubt it but incidents happen, rapes, murders

Haditha. Mahmoudiyah. Fallujah. To name a few places.

Who said My Lai happens every day?

Aside from the untrue argument "someone said MyLai happened every day you are ALL bashing us", questioning and giving options is NOT bashing. A true patriot must be ready to defend his/her country from enemies without and within. If you think questioning blindly supporting what is happening in Iraq by US troops is bashing, we have to more to say to one another.

[sanskritwarrior]

190. I am willing to defend from enemies

foreign and domestic......However I do not get to designate who those enemies are.........Use your brain, if we start down this road in the future a General could argue with precedent that all Democrats are domestic enemies. Or all Hispanic mothers, or whatever group that particular military member has an animus about. WE IN THE MILITARY do not determine who the enemies of America are. That is not our reason for existence. WE IN THE MILITARY do not determine who we fight or when we fight. WE DO THIS TO MAINTAIN the divide between the civilian political world and the military world. I swear I'm arguing Govt. 101 all throughout this thread and no one is getting it......

[uppityperson]

193. We are NOT calling for a coup as you keep saying.

We are saying there are options. There are other choices between going to Iraq or having a coup. Can you understand this?

[noamnety]

204. The war crimes are systemic

and daily.

Why are we dancing around that point? Nobody's said it in this thread, so in that regard, he is arguing with himself. But the fact is, we have a system of torture that has been developed as policy, and the troops participate in that. All troops? No. But each day there is ongoing torture and illegal imprisonment, which is to say every day, there is a My Lai of sorts happening.

And we have a system of killing civilians, because what else can you call it when you drop phosphorous on a city, without regard for the target? What else can you call it when you head out for the day with extra shovels, in preparation for killing civilians, and falsifying evidence? That is premeditation.

And each day that civilians are killed, for them it is a My Lai. It is of no difference whether they were shot in fear or in revenge.

If an intruder invades my house, what is the difference to me if, during the invasion, he kills my child out of hate, or if I throw something at him and scare him, and he shoots my child in a reaction to that fear?

If you look at the civilian body counts, you will see there is a My Lai every day, for the Iraqis.

[noamnety]

181. My Lai was unique

in that it was made public.

Several American veterans of the war in Iraq have told the BBC's Newsnight program that the marines' reaction to the roadside bomb attack in Haditha was not an isolated incident.

Specialist Michael Blake, who served in Balad, said it was common practice to "shoot up the landscape or anything that moved" after an explosion.

Another veteran, Specialist Jody Casey, who was a scout sniper in Baquba, said he had also seen innocent civilians being killed. Bombs "go off and you just zap any farmer that's close to you", he said.

Mr. Casey said he did not take part in any atrocities himself, but was advised to always carry a shovel. He could then plant this on any civilian victims to make it look as though they were digging roadside bombs.

http://www.envirosagainstwar.org/know/read.php?itemid=3908

[sanskritwarrior]

184. Does a my lai happen everday

and where is the proof. We aren't talking anedoctes from Marines, we aren't talking hypotheticals. Someone said a my lai happens everyday and the military covers it up. I want proof, if no proof how is that not a bash??? Seriously, the anti military hysteria in some of these threads is breathtaking.......I'm going to dinner my head hurts from the stupidity of some.

[uppityperson]

189. Who said that?

you keep saying "someone said that" then attacking varied people. Who said that? Go after them.

[Bronyraurus]

186. Do you know what My Lai was?

An entire village full of unarmed people were lined up and machine-gunned. It's a bit different from a soldier being bombed and then shooting nearby people out of fear.

[noamnety]

197. "a bit different"

from the privileged position of the person doing the shooting. Not so much from the perspective of a child watching their parents get slaughtered.

I'm sorry. Did I say slaughtered? I meant liberated.

[Bronyraurus]

207. Whoo hoo!

Good one. It's one thing for one family to be upset about an accidental death and another for hundreds of families to be torn apart by mass murder. Or don't you thinks so?

[uppityperson]

201. or raping a 14 yr old, killing and mutilating her, killing 4 yr old sister, parents.

That is different also.

[Bronyraurus]

206. Exactly

Or do you mean that that's different from My Lai. It's not all that different. I'm glad that the US prosecuted those soldiers in a timely fashion.

[uppityperson]

263. Why did they discharge Green? Set him loose on civilians?

Seems they should have made sure he had psych care at the minimum. Will he ever stand trial? How about those that discharged him for "personality disorder"? That really rankles that they discharged him and sent him back to the civilian world, KNOWING that he was not safe. So far those still in have mostly confessed and plea bargained, waiting sentencing. Most recent one was sentenced to a long time, can get out in 10 years. 10 years. And Stephen Green has not been tried, will NOT be tried by the military since they discharged him as too weird, too dangerous, to keep in the military.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

203. And Japanese veterans who admit to having massacred or abused

civilians or POWs get death threats from other veterans.

In such a mindset, the sin is not murder, torture, rape, or plundering, it's telling others about it.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

135. If enough military personnel refused to fight, Leavenworth couldn't

hold them all.

We need mutiny on a massive scale. Too bad about all that "I have a job to do" bullshit. And it IS bullshit if your assigned task is immoral to begin with.

[sanskritwarrior]

136. Sorry that most of us in the military

don't want to run right out and take part in the first coup against the American govt. in American history. Sorry that we don't want to take a steaming dump on 220+ years of good order and disicipline that is the bedrock of the American military. Sorry that we aren't really in the mood to trash the Constitution by removing the President from office. Sorry that we want to let the american system function as the founders intended it to. Sorry that we want Congress and the People to do their job and rectify the current situation. Sorry that we haven't already taken the law into our own hands and removed the President from office.......Sorry our respect for the American system offends you.

When Congress does its job in regards to Bush then we will do ours, not before........We are not the harbingers of change in American politics and I fear the day when we stop doing our duty and start following ideology......

[Lydia Leftcoast]

137. Who said anything about a coup?

Just refuse to go to Iraq, which is an illegal war from start to finish under the Nuremberg principles.

Sorry, but it's true.

Your current assigned task is illegal under international law, and you and your buddies are dying and killing for a bunch of cowardly greedheads who have no more "support" for you than a chess player does for his pawns.

The hell with "doing your job." You're a pawn and nothing more, and the sooner the rank-and-file military recognize this fact and call bullshit on Fox News and Rush Limbaugh and all the other crap Armed Forces radio and TV feed you, the better off we'll all be.

Wouldn't it have been nice if the German army had refused to fight in 1939? Some of the German generals considered refusing to invade Poland, but unfortunately, they concluded that they "had a job to do."

Yeah.

The longer I live, the more my position approaches pacificism. I've lived through the Korean War, the Vietnam War, the interventions in the Dominican Republic and the first intervention in Lebanon, the interventions in Central America, the first Gulf War, the invasion of Afghanistan, and now this stupid ego trip.

Vietnam alone killed over 50,000 of my generation and irreparably damaged countless more in body and mind. Now another generation is being ravaged for greed and stupidity, while the children of the decision makers go around playing like Paris Hilton.

I wish American youth weren't such suckers.

[sanskritwarrior]

139. We are not the German Army

we have a duty to do, I'm sorry you can't grasp the obvious. It has nothing to do with that retard in the White house and everything to do with our honor, the future of the American military and the desire to retain good order and disicpline, the prime principle we live by. I don't give a crap if I'm a pawn now, or 4 years from now, I have a job to do and refusing to obey orders approved by Congress is dereliction of that duty. If CONGRESS successfully impeaches the President then by all means I'll road march to DC and arrest him myself. Until then I'm sorry if our commitment to America and her values upsets you. We are not here to make decisions about public policy. We execute public policy. The day we cross that line is that day I go AWOL and take up arms against a military that has given me everything in my life. We do not get invovled in politics or political issues, CONGRESS and THE PEOPLE need to rectify this, not us. I can't believe I'm having to explain GOV. 101.........

[Lydia Leftcoast]

141. Since when do "America and her values" include

unprovoked invasions of other countries and abusing the inhabitants?

Maybe they do in practice (e.g. the Central American interventions), but I've met too many veterans who are wracked with guilt about what they did while "doing their job."

You are NOT upholding American values. You are NOT upholding the Constitution. You are NOT acting honorably. You are acting as mercenaries for a bunch of bloodsuckers who make the Mafia look genteel.

[sanskritwarrior]

143. Who is making this about the cause?

Again I have my personal feelings on the war, but I also have a job to do. If you can't accept that, we don't really have a lot to say to each other. It is not the job of the US military to unfuck the current cluster......That is your job and the job of Congress. Again don't get pissed at us if we are doing our job. It is not just following orders, it is ensuring that order and discipline retain control of the military. If we all just sat out, it would set a precedent for the future that terrifies me.....a military that feels it can do whatever it wants to do the politicians be damned......But in your shortsightedness to end this war you can't see what it is you are asking for. If you have nothing further of merit to discusss with me then we are done.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

144. We sure don't

You have internalized the military mindset of orderliness and obedience above all other considerations.

You're still an individual and personally responsible for what you choose to do.

[sanskritwarrior]

145. And I still have an oath and military values to obey.....

as do all military members........Yes we cannot reach an accord here

[uppityperson]

153. did part of your oath include the bit about enemies abroad and at home?

or is that officers oath?

[sanskritwarrior]

160. So who exactly is my enemy here at home?

The President might be many things but he is not my enemy. Not like al Qaeda. That is not a freeper statement that is reality. As of today Bush is convicted of no crime, charged with no crime by Congress or the courts. He is not my enemy. if congress indicts and then does their job then yes he becomes an enemy......

[uppityperson]

163. Did part of your oath include the bit about enemies abroad and at home?

That is my question. What is your answer please? Cannot continue unless I know the answer. Thank you.

[sanskritwarrior]

165. Yes it does

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).

[uppityperson]

171. OK. I would consider enemies at home those that are NOT supporting the Constitution.

Those that are instead destroying it.

You seem to say, and have said in the past, that until someone is charged and convicted of this crime, they have not done it. I think this is weasling out of responsibility for crimes. That crimes are done whether or not the perpetrator has been charged and convicted. If the act weren't a crime, they would not ever be charged, and just because someone has not been charged does not mean there is no crime.

[sanskritwarrior]

173. In the eyes of the military

there is no crime. In the eyes of the law, there is no crime (so far)......Again forgive me if I don't pick up a pitchfork and torch and march towards Washington........Without charges being filed, I would be no better than a vigilante......Why is this so hard for people to understand.......I nor you get to make the rules about what is legal or illegal, we have a justice system for a reason, so that individuals don't do what many here want the us in the military to do......

Sorry, if you think I have a closed mind, so be it, I tend to think I am serving the greater good by not giving in to the passions of the moment and by preserving the system we have lived under for 220+ years......Disagree if you want to, but my mind wont be swayed.

[uppityperson]

177. Again you are confusing issues, who is calling for a coup?

I too want to continue living under the constitution, but see it being destroyed, hence enemies at home.

[sanskritwarrior]

183. Ok we're done here

I'm talking about following the laws of the land to include the way someone is charged with a crime. You are talking about your personal feelings about who is a criminal. One is fantasy, the other is the way America has conducted business for 220+ years. I'll let you guess which one is the one America stands for.

[uppityperson]

188. You are saying we are calling for a coup when we are not.

We are questioning the reasoning behind the Iraq occupation and working against those that are trying to take away Constitutional rights. I'll let you guess who is the patriot.

[sanskritwarrior]

192. Ok keep arguing points that make no sense

I'm off to Outback.

[uppityperson]

194. There are options besides go to Iraq or have a coup.

This point makes no sense? well, have fun in Outback.

[uppityperson]

152. What are you going on about? Seems quite an over reaction posting

WHo is talking about a coup, about removing the president or trashing the constitution? What are you going on about?

[noamnety]

154. I see a problem with logic here.

Refusing to take up arms has nothing even remotely to do with "the first coup against the American govt. in American history." Not going to Iraq is not "storming the white house and changing the US government by force."

People refused orders to fight in the American revolution.
People refused orders to fight in the civil war.
People refused to fight in WWI and WWII.

"a controversial survey after World War II by Brig. Gen. S. L. A. Marshall seemed to show that many soldiers fired in the air or simply didn't fire their weapons as ordered. In many units, 75 percent of the soldiers did this." http://www.objector.org/advice/conscientious_objector-5.html

People refused orders to fight in Vietnam.

"Many soldiers and sailors refused to be part of the Vietnam War. Desertion rates went to their highest levels in history. Thousands were court-martialed for many different offenses. Occasionally entire units simply sat down and refused to fight."

http://www.objector.org/advice/conscientious_objector-5.html

So the second logic error is portraying war resistence as a ground-breaking "first" in some way. Resistence is a regular part of our 220+ year military history - a time honored tradition, some might say. :)

If you don't personally want to resist, so be it. But I found your post to be both misrepresenting war resistence as if it is a coup attempt, and misrepresenting it as if it is unheard of in our history. Let's be accurate on those points.

[uppityperson]

157. Thank you.

"OMG you're calling for a coup" is way over reaction and "I don't want to be the first to ever refuse orders" is also offensive. Yes, refusing illegal/immoral orders calls for a GREAT deal of courage. I have friends who spent yrs in prison for refusing to go to Viet Nam. I highly respect them.

[sanskritwarrior]

162. That's nice for you

I do not respect them. Sorry just my .02 cents......

:) Patiently waiting for the flaming to begin......

[uppityperson]

166. What about the rest of my posting, or are you just picking and chosing what to reply to?

"OMG you're calling for a coup" is way over reaction and "I don't want to be the first to ever refuse orders" is also offensive.

[sanskritwarrior]

169. I'm replying to the only part

that piqued my interest.....

[uppityperson]

172. I'm only piqued

I see.

[sanskritwarrior]

175. LOL

yeah........ :)

[NotGivingUp]

228. agree wholeheartedly. the mission is to kill innocent people for the war pigs who want the oil.

[SammyWinstonJack]

99. !!

:applause: Glad someone finally said this. :yourock:

[uppityperson]

105. Thank you.

I wish Squatch safety and peace as I do all of us but I do not believe in them doing this. Everyone has a choice, every choice has a consequence. I cannot tell anyone else what to chose, and agree with what IndyOp posted.

[NotGivingUp]

155. totally agree....this killing could not go on without any 'troops'

[lonestarnot]

Oh brother.

:eyes:

[lonestarnot]

68. Oh brother.

:eyes:

[jerryme1]

70. Situational Awareness

I served in Iraq in 2003. My advice to you is always be aware of your surroundings, and as my father in law, who flew helicopters in Vietnam instructed me, "trust no one." Finally, the heat is incredible. It rained one time during my 7 month deployment.

[myrna minx]

92. Welcome home and to DU, jerryme1.

:hi:

[GreenZoneLT]

95. It gets cold, too, and wet.

Starting to warm up now, but it was cold as hell in December and January. We had frost on the truck windshield every morning for like two weeks.

I rode my bicycle back to the hooch after work, and got covered in mud splatters. It rains quite a bit from November to about the end of March, then doesn't rain at all through the summer.

[jerryme1]

112. Weather conditions

I did hear that the winter months were quite different. Are you still in Iraq and if so are you leaving the GZ very often?

[GreenZoneLT]

219. Going home in late June.

I'll get to enjoy a few more 120-degree days before I leave, I expect. It's pretty nice right now; 50s at night, mid-70s in the day.

[smoogatz]

71. Be safe, Squatch.

I admire your optimism, though in all honesty I can't say I share it. It seems pretty clear to me that the rich, white chickenhawks who got us (you) into this clusterfuck do not have your best interests at heart. That said, it's my fervent hope that things play out in a way that doesn't leave you too often or too directly in harm's way. Do what you have to do, friend, then bring it home in one piece.

[tabasco]

72. You are being deployed into Cheney's oil war.

Good luck keeping yourself and your troops safe, but you are not going after the bad guys. That's what I want the military to do. I was in the infantry for ten years and I am outraged that OBL remains free. Iraq is something you will have to survive, but please don't fool yourself that deployment to Iraq is good for you or your unit. The Bush corporate cabal profiteering is the LAST thing our military needed. I was (am) an Airborne Ranger and our military was capable and ready to defend this Nation before Bush and the robber barons came along. They have promoted yes-men to the highest ranks and this will ensure corruption in the ranks for years to come.

Godspeed to you. Keep your soldiers motivated to do the right things all the time. Don't let discipline problems go without immediate correction and punishment. Discipline can break down fast in a leadership vacuum. Good luck!

[noamnety]

73. Hold On to Your Humanity

I'm a little concerned about the attitude that it's "exciting" to go take part in something that has devasted an entire country, left its people without electricity, often without power, removed the legal rights of half the population (the women), and has destroyed so many lives and families. I guess what I'm saying is I'm reading your OP, and not seeing the humanity. I know it's in there, but don't get so blinded by the mission that it doesn't come through.

from Stan Goff (who's given me standing permission to reprint his words, so I'm taking it here.)

An Open Letter to GIs in Iraq

Dear American serviceperson in Iraq,

I am a retired veteran of the army, and my own son is among you, a paratrooper like I was. The changes that are happening to every one of you - some more extreme than others - are changes I know very well. So I'm going to say some things to you straight up in the language to which you are accustomed.

In 1970, I was assigned to the 173rd Airborne Brigade, then based in northern Binh Dinh Province in what was then the Republic of Vietnam. When I went there, I had my head full of s**t: s**t from the news media, s**t from movies, s**t about what it supposedly mean to be a man, and s**t from a lot of my know-nothing neighbors who would tell you plenty about Vietnam even though they'd never been there, or to war at all.

The essence of all this s**t was that we had to "stay the course in Vietnam," and that we were on some mission to save good Vietnamese from bad Vietnamese, and to keep the bad Vietnamese from hitting beachheads outside of Oakland. We stayed the course until 58,000 Americans were dead and lots more maimed for life, and 3,000,000 Southeast Asians were dead. Ex-military people and even many on active duty played a big part in finally bringing that crime to a halt.

When I started hearing about weapons of mass destruction that threatened the United States from Iraq, a shattered country that had endured almost a decade of trench war followed by an invasion and twelve years of sanctions, my first question was how in the hell can anyone believe that this suffering country presents a threat to the United States? But then I remembered how many people had believed Vietnam threatened the United States. Including me.

When that bulls**t story about weapons came apart like a two-dollar shirt, the politicians who cooked up this war told everyone, including you, that you would be greeted like great liberators. They told us that we were in Vietnam to make sure everyone there could vote.

What they didn't tell me was that before I got there in 1970, the American armed forces had been burning villages, killing livestock, poisoning farmlands and forests, killing civilians for sport, bombing whole villages, and committing rapes and massacres, and the people who were grieving and raging over that weren't in a position to figure out the difference between me - just in country - and the people who had done those things to them.

What they didn't tell you is that over a million and a half Iraqis died between 1991 and 2003 from malnutrition, medical neglect, and bad sanitation. Over half a million of those who died were the weakest: the children, especially very young children.

My son who is over there now has a baby. We visit with our grandson every chance we get. He is eleven months old now. Lots of you have children, so you know how easy it is to really love them, and love them so hard you just know your entire world would collapse if anything happened to them. Iraqis feel that way about their babies, too. And they are not going to forget that the United States government was largely responsible for the deaths of half a million kids.

So the lie that you would be welcomed as liberators was just that. A lie. A lie for people in the United States to get them to open their purse for this obscenity, and a lie for you to pump you up for a fight.

And when you put this into perspective, you know that if you were an Iraqi, you probably wouldn't be crazy about American soldiers taking over your towns and cities either. This is the tough reality I faced in Vietnam. I knew while I was there that if I were Vietnamese, I would have been one of the Vietcong.

But there we were, ordered into someone else's country, playing the role of occupier when we didn't know the people, their language, or their culture, with our head full of bulls**t our so-called leaders had told us during training and in preparation for deployment, and even when we got there. There we were, facing people we were ordered to dominate, but any one of whom might be pumping mortars at us or firing AKs at us later that night. The question we started to ask is who put us in this position?

In our process of fighting to stay alive, and in their process of trying to expel an invader that violated their dignity, destroyed their property, and killed their innocents, we were faced off against each other by people who made these decisions in $5,000 suits, who laughed and slapped each other on the back in Washington DC with their fat f***ing asses stuffed full of cordon bleu and caviar.

They chumped us. Anyone can be chumped.

That's you now. Just fewer trees and less water.

We haven't figured out how to stop the pasty-faced, oil-hungry backslappers in DC yet, and it looks like you all might be stuck there for a little longer. So I want to tell you the rest of the story.

I changed over there in Vietnam and they were not nice changes either. I started getting pulled into something - something that craved other peole's pain. Just to make sure I wasn't regarded as a "f***ing missionary" or a possible rat, I learned how to fit myself into that group that was untouchable, people too crazy to f*** with, people who desired the rush of omnipotence that comes with setting someone's house on fire just for the pure hell of it, or who could kill anyone, man, woman, or child, with hardly a second thought. People who had the power of life and death - because they could.

The anger helps. It's easy to hate everyone you can't trust because of your circumstances, and to rage about what you've seen, what has happened to you, and what you have done and can't take back.

It was all an act for me, a cover-up for deeper fears I couldn't name, and the reason I know that is that we had to dehumanize our victims before we did the things we did. We knew deep down that what we were doing was wrong. So they became dinks or gooks, just like Iraqis are now being transformed into ragheads or hajjis. People had to be reduced to "niggers" here before they could be lynched. No difference. We convinced ourselves we had to kill them to survive, even when that wasn't true, but something inside us told us that so long as they were human beings, with the same intrinsic value we had as human beings, we were not allowed to burn their homes and barns, kill their animals, and sometimes even kill them. So we used these words, these new names, to reduce them, to strip them of their essential humanity, and then we could do things like adjust artillery fire onto the cries of a baby.

Until that baby was silenced, though, and here's the important thing to understand, that baby never surrendered her humanity. I did. We did. That's the thing you might not get until it's too late. When you take away the humanity of another, you kill your own humanity. You attack your own soul because it is standing in the way.

So we finish our tour, and go back to our families, who can see that even though we function, we are empty and incapable of truly connecting to people any more, and maybe we can go for months or even years before we fill that void where we surrendered our humanity, with chemical anesthetics - drugs, alcohol, until we realize that the void can never be filled and we shoot ourselves, or head off into the street where we can disappear with the flotsam of society, or we hurt others, especially those who try to love us, and end up as another incarceration statistic or a mental patient.

You can ever escape that you became a racist because you made the excuse that you needed that to survive, that you took things away from people that you can never give back, or that you killed a piece of yourself that you may never get back.

Some of us do. We get lucky and someone gives a damn enough to emotionally resuscitate us and bring us back to life. Many do not.

I live with the rage every day of my life, even when no one else sees it. You might hear it in my words. I hate being chumped.

So here is my message to you. You will do what you have to do to survive, however you define survival, while we do what we have to do to stop this thing. But don't surrender your humanity. Not to fit in. Not to prove yourself. Not for an adrenaline rush. Not to lash out when you are angry and frustrated. Not for some ticket-punching f***ing military careerist to make his bones on. Especially not for the Bush-Cheney Gas & Oil Consortium.

The big bosses are trying to gain control of the world's energy supplies to twist the arms of future economic competitors. That's what's going on, and you need to understand it, then do what you need to do to hold on to your humanity. The system does that; tells you you are some kind of hero action figures, but uses you as gunmen. They chump you.

Your so-called civilian leadership sees you as an expendable commodity. They don't care about your nightmares, about the DU that you are breathing, about the loneliness, the doubts, the pain, or about how your humanity is stripped away a piece at a time. They will cut your benefits, deny your illnesses, and hide your wounded and dead from the public. They already are.

They don't care. So you have to. And to preserve your own humanity, you must recognize the humanity of the people whose nation you now occupy and know that both you and they are victims of the filthy rich bastards who are calling the shots.

They are your enemies - The Suits - and they are the enemies of peace, and the enemies of your families, especially if they are Black families, or immigrant families, or poor families. They are thieves and bullies who take and never give, and they say they will "never run" in Iraq, but you and I know that they will never have to run, because they f***ing aren't there. You are.

They'll skin and grin while they are getting what they want from you, and throw you away like a used condom when they are done. Ask the vets who are having their benefits slashed out from under them now. Bushfeld and their cronies are parasites, and they are the sole beneficiaries of the chaos you are learning to live in. They get the money. You get the prosthetic devices, the nightmares, and the mysterious illnesses.

So if your rage needs a target, there they are, responsible for your being there, and responsible for keeping you there. I can't tell you to disobey. That would probably run me afoul of the law. That will be a decision you will have to take when and if the circumstances and your own conscience dictate. But it perfectly legal for you to refuse illegal orders, and orders to abuse or attack civilians are illegal. Ordering you to keep silent about these crimes is also illegal.

I can tell you, without fear of legal consequence, that you are never under any obligation to hate Iraqis, you are never under any obligation to give yourself over to racism and nihilism and the thirst to kill for the sake of killing, and you are never under any obligation to let them drive out the last vestiges of your capacity to see and tell the truth to yourself and to the world. You do not owe them your souls.

Come home safe, and come home sane. The people who love you and who have loved you all your lives are waiting here, and we want you to come back and be able to look us in the face. Don't leave your souls in the dust there like another corpse.

Hold on to your humanity.

[latebloomer]

88. That was powerful.

Thanks for posting it. Sums up my feelings and a whole lot more.

I don't know you, Squatch, but I see you've been on DU quite a while and have posted a lot. I can't see how you can feel good about going into a situation that serves criminal interests. What is our military doing that is so glorious?

Having said that, I do hope you come back physically and emotionally in one piece.

[Chimichurri]

102. Amazing. Thank you for sharing.

[Jacobin]

109. A very sobering message from someone who has been there

done that.

I wish there were a way to have that handed out at every recruiters station as a legal requirement.

As sad and painful as it is true, every word of it

[NotGivingUp]

221. what an amazing letter. i'm so glad i slowed down and actually read it.

many times, especially if it's long, i skim stuff....or if it's way too long, i don't read it at all. i'm glad i took the time to come back to this letter and really read it. powerful, amazing words that i'm sure will make some see the light.

[NotGivingUp]

248. this letter really deserves to have it's own thread.

[Ilsa]

75. Father and Mother in Heaven: Please send as many of our

troops home safe and sound, including Squatch, with as little combat experience as necessary;

And please, that we never have to use whatever experience they have to fight another war;

And please, that we don't have to invent new prosthetics;

And please, that we won't need new kinds of armor for a defense against a more deadly attack;

And please, that we won't be needing more psychotherapists and counselors and psychiatrists to deal with traumatic brain injuries, PTSD, and family issues of returning soldiers.

I know my prayer won't be answered in full, but I hope as much of it as possible will be.

And best wishes to you Squatch. I'm sure the experience will be exciting (but my brother hated it in 1991).

[Ladyinblack]

76. It is weird, but

It is weird but, I remember having that same feeling of being pumped up and ready to fight. It was the morning I started chemo to beat cancer. I did beat it, but the days that followed were days I just tried to make it through. It was a very strange emotional reaction.

I won. I hope you win. I just want everyone home safe.

[Jcrowley]

78. War Is a Racket

WAR IS A RACKET
by Two-Time Congressional Medal of Honor Recipient:
Major General Smedley D. Butler, USMC

Chapter One

WAR IS A RACKET

WAR is a racket. It always has been.

It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives.

A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small "inside" group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes.

In the World War a mere handful garnered the profits of the conflict. At least 21,000 new millionaires and billionaires were made in the United States during the World War. That many admitted their huge blood gains in their income tax returns. How many other war millionaires falsified their tax returns no one knows.

How many of these war millionaires shouldered a rifle? How many of them dug a trench? How many of them knew what it meant to go hungry in a rat-infested dug-out? How many of them spent sleepless, frightened nights, ducking shells and shrapnel and machine gun bullets? How many of them parried a bayonet thrust of an enemy? How many of them were wounded or killed in battle?

Out of war nations acquire additional territory, if they are victorious. They just take it. This newly acquired territory promptly is exploited by the few – the selfsame few who wrung dollars out of blood in the war. The general public shoulders the bill.

And what is this bill?

This bill renders a horrible accounting. Newly placed gravestones. Mangled bodies. Shattered minds. Broken hearts and homes. Economic instability. Depression and all its attendant miseries. Back-breaking taxation for generations and generations.

http://www.lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm

[OneBlueSky]

82. what he said . . . n/t

.

[nam78_two]

270. yup.nt

[Recursion]

81. Dmesg's laws of armed combat

AKA unsolicited advice:

1. Friendly fire isn't
2. Suppressive fire won't
3. Tracers work both ways
4. He's as scared as you are
5. He's not a monster; he's a human with motives and a mind like yours -- forget that and he'll out-think you
6. They stress left vs. right distinctions in training for a reason -- keep that part of your brain awake
7. A shitty plan now is better than a good plan tomorrow
8. A combat leader who tells his subordinate how to do his job has lost already
9. If you think about "after the war", there won't be any
10. If you've heard it or seen it, it's too late to react to it. You've got a Homo habilus in you; get in touch with him and his instincts.

Specifically regarding Iraq:
1. Rubble hides shit you don't want to unearth. Avoid it when possible. Do not use it for cover.
2. Keep 3' clear of walls; they have a tendency to collapse explosively. Also, ricochets travel down them.
3. Be very, very quiet about operational issues around locals working with you. I'll say no more on that, but believe me.
4. This is a 3D war. Look up and down, not just left and right.

[leftynyc]

83. Keep your head down and

come home to those who love you. Thoughts and prayers sent your way.

[mmonk]

85. I personally don't see how we can have a lean rapid flex force

in combination with desires of a huge dominant empire. Seems contradictory. Most of my thinking is in line with Gen. Wesley Clark's book, "Winning Modern Wars". Best of luck.

[GreenZoneLT]

86. Oh, dude, you are in for such a wakeup call.

It really, really sucks here. You don't apply "military science" so much as try to referee between people who don't want to be refereed. You'll be working with Iraqi troops, who range from incompetent to indifferent to downright hostile.

Talk to the kids who have been here two or three times. They do one of two things: ride around waiting to hit an IED, or going through neighborhoods searching abandoned houses and trying not to piss off the locals, while rarely finding any bad guys. The only regular forces who do much actual fighting are the Marines out west.

I guess you could say it's exciting, or interesting in the sense of the ancient Chinese curse.

That crap about "legacy" maneuver warfare is Rumsfeldian hogwash, btw. The flexible force is a myth; they're trying to do a job that would be better left to special forces, the UN and the Peace Corps. The Army is the wrong tool to fight assymmetrical warfare, and it's never going to BE the right tool. Just wait, we'll be "transforming" back over the next few decades as China becomes a more credible threat.

Stay optimistic, though; it doesn't help to do anything else. And keep your head down.

[Redstone]

90. Or a CAP program. Aren't the Marines running some of those in the North?

Redxstone

[GreenZoneLT]

94. The Army is doing some of that in Diyala.

That's mainly Iraqi Army in the lead, though.

[Redstone]

110. I know guys who were in the CAP program in Viet Nam, and it worked damn well there.

The way they had it structured, it worked out as a great force multiplier; three Vietnamese militia to each Marine. And I bet I don't need to tell you how valuable it was for the Marines to live with the RVN militias they worked with, and to have the kind of local intel that only locals can provide.

If we'd started doing that in Iraq three years ago, we might have gotten somewhere. But that's just my opinion, and one that looks at combat from a 34-years-ago perspective. You're there, and know a hell of a lot more about the situation that I do.

I'll look forward to your posts in the future. I am sure there will be much for me to learn from them.

Redstone

[deadparrot]

100. Are you in Iraq right now, GreenZoneLT?

If so, best wishes. Come home safe. :toast:

[Breeze54]

108. Hope you are back in the states soon.

Stay safe!

[sanskritwarrior]

118. I have two tours under my belt

and yes the "suck" is something fierce in country, but at the same time I do feel some enjoyment of my work. I don't patrol every single day, no one does. We do 5 on 2 off (well we did last time) as we were at a larger FOB. I would really enjoy talking to you about Iraq. I haven't been there in over a year and am curious as to what has changed and what has stayed the same......LT good luck.

[BreweryYardRat]

124. Hey, quick question, for you, man. Been wanting to ask a military guy something.

With the prevalence of buried/half-buried IED's over in Iraq, only some of which are trigger-detonated, has anyone thought of instituting something like the minesweeper tanks of WWII?

On the small chance that you aren't already aware of how these worked, I'll explain to the best of my recollection. I'm sure there are plenty of more detailed sources out there.

Essentially, they had a big rotating drum with long chains attached, mounted on the front of the tank. As the tank moved forward and the drum rotated, the chains would smack down onto the earth hard enough to set off mines they hit. I believe the drum's rotation was linked to the tank tracks turning, but modern technology could certainly figure a way around that, probably even make the system viable to mount on a Humvee instead of a tank. It wouldn't necessarily find all IED's, and wouldn't do much to stop trigger-detonated ones, but I figure it's at least worth a suggestion.

Can you spot any potential flaws beside cost/time spent refitting vehicles to carry the system?

[GreenZoneLT]

218. Unfortunately, that's not how they work

IEDs are mainly set up to fire from the side. They're not usually in the road itself, but buried in a wall, curb, rubble, pile of trash, dead dog, dead person, etc. at the side of the road. Usually set off by a guy with a cell phone, a wire and plunger, or a pressure-plate in the road.

The really deadly ones are the explosively formed projectiles, which use plastic explosives and a dish-shaped piece of metal to shoot what turns into an armor-piercing round after it blows up. Those can take out tanks. We've been playing move, countermove with the IED-makers for years now; one reason the Humvees cost so much is the various bits of anti-IED gear on them, which we don't discuss in detail for obvious reasons.

I'm a REMF in the Green Zone, so my experience of patrolling consists of one media trip into the Shaab neighborhood (next to Sadr City, rode in a Stryker), and second-hand stories. I did get lulled to sleep last night by the sound of 105 rounds from a gunship pounding the crap out of South Baghdad; there's not really a REAR rear here.

I agree with Sanskrit; it doesn't always suck here. I go back and forth day to day as to whether we're accomplishing anything. Petraeus seems to get it, and there are occasional reasons for optimism like the big fight that's on now between some of the western tribes and the Sunni hardliners (the hardliners appear to be losing). I really wish the damn State department was over here in more force, though; we've got all these non-Arabic-speaking trained killers here trying to be diplomats, because that's what's required. And way too infantry colonels who DON'T get it, and just want to go kinetic on everything.

[rman]

87. At least you can be assured Bush will treat you well if you return.

[G_j]

91. yes I suppose WW3 would be exiting to some also

count me out of the enthusiasm though
all war should be a cause for mourning


Words of Lao Tzu, from the Tao Te Ching:

Good weapons are instruments of fear; all creatures hate them.
Therefore followers of the Tao never used them.
The wise man prefers the left.
The man of war prefers the right.

Weapons are instruments of fear; they are not a wise man's tools.
He uses them only when he has no choice.
Peace and quiet are dear to his heart.
And victory no cause for rejoicing.
If you rejoice in victory, then you delight in killing;
If you delight in killing, you cannot fulfill yourself.

[myrna minx]

93. Stay safe, Squatch

and know that we are here for you. :hi:

[Sammy Pepys]

97. Thank you for your service.....

...come back safely!

[dave123williams]

98. Well, keep your head down when you're over there. Don't try to be a hero.

Just come back alive. With all your limbs. And ears.

[deadparrot]

101. Stay safe, Squatch.

All the best to you and yours.

[Beelzebud]

103. Good luck over there. Represent the good of America, please!

[Karenca]

104. I hope you come back safe and sound, but I believe that we are much less safe

now than ever before since we illegally invaded and took over Iraq. The war is sick and horrible, and I have never been more ashamed of this country than I have been since bush took office. You're following his orders. You're murdering hundreds of thousands of innocent people so you can help line the pockets of bush and his oil cronies.

You can smoke some pot and get a blood test and you won't have to go.

[Terri S]

106. stay safe!!!

Every card, care package, etc to a friend had KYFHD -- That's the usual 'keep you're head down' with the 'f' thrown in, cause, hell, we're from Brooklyn, so, you know!

You're in our prayers. Come home safe and soon... and we're doing all we can on this end to make it REAL soon!!

xoxo

[GreenPartyVoter]

111. Be careful hon

[Sterling]

113. Good luck, be safe.

I was against the war but I want you guys to succeed nw that you are there. I think that is the best thing for the Iraqi people as well as our country. I hope you do not have to see an expansion of the war to include Iran but that may be part of what the next year brings. Good luck, come home safe.

[vickitulsa]

114. I feel certain of only one thing.

If you are fortunate enough to return from your tour alive, you will not be thinking or talking the same way as you do in your OP.

You have been conditioned to respond to the imminent challenge you face with that "pumped" feeling you have now. Others who've posted in this thread -- others who have been there, done that -- have some very wise words to offer about what it's really like when you are "in the shit." There's a reason that particular phrase is used so often with regard to warfare.

You may have noble ideals now, but reality will set in pretty soon after you set foot in Iraq, I feel sure.

I well remember one of my many Vietnam vet friends telling me that he learned when he set foot off the plane in Vietnam, the value of life was instantly reduced to zero.

Real experience in the insanity of a "Bush-modified" Iraq will re-condition you pretty fast, I imagine. I hope it's fast enough to keep you alive, but there's no way you'll come back the same person you are now.

And that is NOT a good thing.

[sanskritwarrior]

117. nevermind

n/t

[UTUSN]

115. Skill in (whatever) is ONE thing. Correctness in policy/blood/treasure is OTHER

Come back safely, and keep up the good fight.

[sanskritwarrior]

116. Hooah squatch

that's the spirit......none of us want to go to Iraq, but at a certain point we have to put our personal feelings aside accept the mission, move out and execute.........


Our unit is hearing we are headed back into Iraq in early 2008. We might not always agree with our leaders but once we kiss our loved ones goodbye and get on the bus we have a job to do to get ourselves and our men home......Fight with honor, fight with fury and fight to come home.

Let me leave you with a little Henry V: We few, we happy few, we band of brothers, For he today who sheds his blood with me shall be my brother........forever squatch, forever

[marions ghost]

125. it's a shame that

those willing to serve, those capable of the job like you --are being squandered in such an unworthy "war." Maybe you can look on it as another very realistic training exercise? Because it's not in any way an honorable cause.

It's hard to see a lot of good soldiers and billions of dollars wasted on such a misguided disaster. We will be fighting on the home front to bring you home.

[sanskritwarrior]

140. I know what it is

but until Congress and the people rectify it, I have a duty to do. I don't get to quit because of my personal feelings, that dishonors everything I have believed in in my life.

[marions ghost]

213. I understand, but

on the other hand soldiers shouldn't be asked to fight wars they don't believe in. They should not be asked to blindly follow the leader over a cliff. Because in any military you do want intelligent soldiers, not pea-brained idiots. Might as well fight with robots.

The system could change to ease the pressure in this no-win situation. The citizens of this country should have much more control over the waging of wars in our name. The penalities for promoting wars for profit and exploitation, as in Iraq, should be much more severe. At the same time there should be no penalty for soldiers who object to serve in wars they cannot believe in. None. They should just be released from service. I don't think this would be abused as no one would take this lightly. Reservists especially should not be required to fight in combat situations in foreign wars for profit. Nobody should ever be so duty-bound that they can't exercise their own best judgment for their personal well-being. Anything less is a form of enslavement. All the romantic notions about comrades-in-arms and the glories of battle fall apart when you come home in a wheelchair or a box for a cause that was not just nor honorable. The Vietnam vets found that out the hard way.

Having entered the military as it stands today, you have agreed to do whatever is asked of you. And yet you seem to understand that the current war is a loser overall. So I guess that puts you in the position of helping to pick up the pieces, rather than "winning." Well OK, do it as a job, but give up the idealistic perspectives. Your previous post indicates that you need or want to be fighting for a noble cause. Realize that this one ain't it.

[TheBaldyMan]

122. Come back in one piece Squatch

keep yer 'ead down m8 :thumbsup:

[piedmont]

123. I wish you and your guys well, Squatch

[outofbounds]

126. Thank you

I don't know if anyone told you this but keep your head down! lol Be safe brother. Take care and return home to your family. Godspeed!

[BlueCollar]

127. Put a DU bumpersticker on your HumVee

and keep your back to the wall... :-)

Be safe...We'll be thinking of you and yours

[styersc]

133. I hope your enthusiasm keeps you safe and will see you home.

Enthusiasm will have to do it as the righteousness or necessity of the mission are non-existent.

God Bless and I Hope you neither harm, nor be harmed.

[Selatius]

138. It's a horrible time to be in the military.

If I were an officer, I'd be fucking pissed at Bush for tossing us all into the meat grinder. The only reason I'd deploy is because as an officer I'm responsible for making sure as few of my boys end up coming home in coffins and wheelchairs as possible.

While it's true the combat experience will yield valuable lessons, those lessons mean shit if nobody in charge bothers learning from previous conflicts because it makes one ask whether the lessons of Iraq will be forgotten by the next generation of leaders.

It seems the current crop of leaders in the Pentagon skipped the fucking lessons of Viêtnam.

[sanskritwarrior]

142. same for us senior NCO's

i can't let my boys go over there alone. I would be ashamed for the rest of my life.......

[Cabcere]

151. I'm not in the military, but...

I AM fucking pissed at Bush. :grr: What I really want to say, though, is that I admire the respect and concern you have for your men and women, and the sacrifices you are willing to make to keep them as safe as possible. That was one of the things about your post that really hit home for me - a few days ago I attended the funeral of one of my friends who was killed in Iraq last week, and one of the people who shared their memories of him said that he went to Iraq so that a father or husband wouldn't have to. The last time I saw him alive was at the mall about two summers ago - right after he had graduated from high school - and even though we didn't really talk about why he was going into the service, it didn't surprise me at all that he would make that kind of sacrifice for someone he'd never met. That's just the way he was. I get that feeling about a lot of people in the military, and I hope and pray for your safe return. Thank you so much. :hug: :patriot:

[nadinbrzezinski]

254. SHHHHH don't tell anyone

but I suspect this is his first rotation... and the first time is always exciting.

;-)

[SalmonChantedEvening]

146. You do us proud Squatch. Just follow Redstone's advice

And come back home safe please

:patriot: :pals:

[NotGivingUp]

148. you're getting pumped up about going and killing people....i don't understand. eom

[sanskritwarrior]

195. Ever been in the military

I understand squatch completely.......

[NotGivingUp]

220. i don't need to be x-military to know that i wouldn't be pumped up about killing innocent people

[nadinbrzezinski]

253. What part of troops are not pumped up about killing

innocent people are you purposely missing?

Oh sorry, troops eat kids with their morning MRE's... pass the tabasco sarge, needs some flavoring....

(How ridicolous can people be?)

[uppityperson]

264. The VAST majority of troops are not pumped up about killing innocent people.

That is way unfair.

[Arugula Latte]

198. Well said.

I don't get it.

"Getting combat experience" translates into "killing people."

People who have parents and children. People who love and are loved. People who are trying to get by in their own country.

Blowing them up or shooting them is not exactly something to get "pumped" about.

:cry:

[Name removed]

150. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[uppityperson]

159. Most of the military don't do that.

They just provide support for that to happen.

[sanskritwarrior]

187. Yay.....

the "we facilitate war crmes" meme........Mein Gott is right.........

[uppityperson]

191. Rather than calling names, point out where my statement was wrong?

[sanskritwarrior]

196. Wasn't talking to you

n/t

[uppityperson]

199. Oh, I took the reply to me as talking to me.

Silly me.:crazy:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

205. Well, yes

:shrug:

This whole war is a war crime.

[sanskritwarrior]

211. Prove it.

Again don't take that as a rightwing statement. Prove to me that a branch of the United States Federal government has deemed this war illegal. That a Federal circuit court has ruled this war illegal and that the USSC has agreed. Do those things and I'll walk away from the Army tomorrow. If you can't then you are trying to prove the unprovable. Saying the war is illegal is nice and all, but the UCMJ is a legal code that I abide by that says you are wrong. Saying the war is illegal does not make it so, getting a branch of the Federal govt. to say so does make it illegal. Here we go again I am explaining Govt. 101 to you. I can't believe you really expect the military to disobey its leaders with no legal precedent to back us up. That is lunacy of the first order, we have the IWR ordering us to do our mission in Iraq, so far there has been no countermanding order. When there is one, then yes the military will do its duty and make our country whole again. Until then, please take this the right way, but until then go pound sand. I apologize, but I'm not going to explain how the govt works again. There are things we want and believe in, if those things are not backed up by the rule of law and the proper adherence to the law, then those things are tainted. Again just my .02 cents. None of these thoughts make me a fascist or a drone or whatever new epithet some of you can construct. You are asking those of us in the military to ignore 220 years of good order and discipline and sorry, but we aint buying.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

216. The principles established at the Nuremberg Trials

The German leaders were condemned for "waging aggressive war."

That's what the Iraq War is, an unprovoked invasion and occupation of a sovereign nation. Bush, Rumsfeld, and all the others knew that Iraq had no WMD, and that Saddam Hussein had no connection with 9/11, and they invaded anyway.

Moral trumps legal any day. Everything the German and the Japanese and the Soviet and the Chinese militaries ever did was "legal" according to their system.

The war continues because our Congresscritters are too chickenshit to stand up to the military-industrial complex and because the soldiers keep "doing their duty."

We're working on the Congresscritters, although, frankly, we're no match for the military contractors and their huge campaign contributions.

And the poor shlubs in the military go on thinking they have no choice but to die for an evil cause.

You always have a choice, and your conscience will hold you personnally responsible in the end.

I've seen a grown man break down into sobs over things he was ordered to do in the 1980s during a mission that was so illegal that it was never officially acknowledged.

[nadinbrzezinski]

243. I know the principles

now point to me the following

(By the way if I had the chance to please the court I would be arguing for Nuremberg)

But please point to any declaration WITH LEGAL standing, anywhere in the world where you have seen this war declared illegal, in a LEGAL setting, not feelings, not opinions

They have the cover they needed from the US Congress (IWR, which is why taking the keys away is so important and revisiting it is so critical), the UN Security Council, which authorized the force and has to yet truly revisit the issue

Until the following happens, not necessarily in this order, the war is very much legal, regardless how we feel about it, and so are orders to deploy

1.- The US House and Senate revisit the IWR and TAKE AWAY THE KEYS.

2.- Since they are in play, the German Courts indict Rummy for War crimes,

3.- THE UN Security Council holds a vote condemning the US et al, changes of that happening are extremely good NOT, given that two of the participants are members of the UNSC with full veto powers.

4.- The UN General Assembly issues a declaration condemning the war

5.- THe Hague steps in

UNtil any of these starts happening all feelings that this war is illegal and has no legal cover are just that, hearsay.

That said, may I please the court

One last thing... the US is unique in one respect that most Americans truly do not get. The Military is fully and completely subservient to civilian authority. If that civilian authority ordered all service members to stand on their heads for ten minutes every day, guess what, ridiculous as it may be, you can argue that is a legal order. Soldiers in the US do NOT make policy, they carry it out. In this sense we are unique, since it is up to us, civilians, to speak for them and to elect civilian leaders that will use them in an intelligent manner and will not deploy them in imperial wars... but given we crossed the Rubicon on December 12, 2000... I suspect republican or democrat will not matter, until the empire collapses.

By the way, as somebody whose job was TO ENFORCE The Geneva Conventions for ten years I realize where idealism clashes with cold reality.

[rug]

249. The legal basis for the Nuremberg trials was not established until two days after Hiroshima.

These atrocities are ongoing and cannot wait until after the war for a new London Charter.

Besides, much of the criticism in this thread is directed at the excitement of deployment to a scene of civilian carnage.

[nadinbrzezinski]

252. Ok let me ask you a simple question

have you ever served in uniform> ANY uniform will do.

If you have, you'd understand that people who are about to go anywhere like a war zone, or a disaster zone, have to psych themselves up

It is adrenaline kicking in, and it is healthy.

If you've never been there, you will not get it...

And once again, if I am shot at, I will shoot back, PERIOD. Problem is that not all bullets will score on those who are shooting at me... so civilians do get hurt, killed, etcetera... yes that is tragic, but I do not blame the war fighter for it, I BLAME THE CIVILIAN LEADERSHIP THAT PUT HIM OR HER IN THAT SITUATION WHEN IT WAS NOT NECESSARY. That is where I place my efforts... because I know this little tidbit, the war fighter does not make policy... the civilians do.

Now to the legal standards... I am sorry to say this, but as much as I detest this war... my detestation is purely opinion, in legal terms hearsay. The only way it can change is the way I listed it. Until then, they have all the legal cover in the world

As a US Citizen, your first choice to change this is to harass your congress critters for them to take away the keys. That is where you and I change policy... not by being "shocked" that a troop is psyching himself up to go into a warzone, aka hell.

[rug]

255. The answer is both no and irrelevant.

And I am not "shocked", simply dismayed.

The difference between a war zone and a disaster zone is that is that the former is deliberate.

The truism that you will shoot back doesn't explain why you're there in the first place. And it doesn't excuse civilian deaths as collateral damage. And military orders often, but not always, absorb personal responsibility.

The legality of this military adventure is yet to be determined, as is its outcome.

Nice talking to you again, Nadine. We last spoke when you were defending military golf courses.

[nadinbrzezinski]

258. And it seems you still lack any undestanding

by the way the question was not irelevant, and you will NEVER GET IT

Now here is a free piece of advice, focus your efforts where you can make a difference, aka harrass congress critters to take away the keys

And as to legality... I hate to tell you this... but for the moment the war is legal.

(Under the strictest of legal definitions of course, but that is all they needed)

Oh and i do realize you believe troops live the high life and can choose to disobey orders willy nilly, given you've never WORN any uniform, I fear you will NEVER get it

[rug]

259. "given you've never WORN any uniform, I fear you will never get it"

:crazy:

Ok, Nadine, go wrap yourself up in some other cloth.

:patriot:

[nadinbrzezinski]

260. You will never get why

people need to psych themselves up, did I lie?

NO

[rug]

262. You didn't lie, you just made a blithering fool of yourself.

Since you're speaking for the OP - for which you're really not qualified - it contains less psych than anticipation.

Now, I suppose I should say no more since my clothing has no insignia.

BTW, tone down the caps, it makes you look even sillier.

[nadinbrzezinski]

265. RLOL

FUNNY.



:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[uppityperson]

266. caps? You are complaining about caps and saying this makes someone look sillier?

omg. or would that be OMG?

[uppityperson]

267. I haven't worn uniform but understand why you have to psych yourselves up.

I have not been in the military, but understand why you have to psych yourselves up. EVEN though I haven't served, or been shot at, and do not have experience, and therefore cannot understand as you do. I still understand. And I find it heartbreaking that this must happen. I have friends who have been in war zones and it hurts to see how they have changed, how they have HAD to change to survive. It is just heartbreaking. I also have friends who chose to not go to Viet Nam, instead spent time in prison. I cannot know why anyone choses what they do, can only try to support them and try to end this all. Death is not the worst thing to happen. We all will die sometime and dying you are just dead. Living with having to have done and changed and BE as you MUST be, that is hard.

Sorry for the caps.

I hope the best for all involved, hope Squatch can keep himself safe and healthy and return home asap and humanely.

[nadinbrzezinski]

271. And my point is that now we CIVILIANS

yes that is you and me, have a huge responsibility.

I write my letters at least once a week.

I call

I pester

I know people like Squatch, or Sancrit Warrior or my husband when he was in uniform or myself, when I wore one, we don't make policy. In the US that is ever more divided than in other countries, hence we have a responsibility who NOW wear a uniform, or will do such in the future.. we owe them that much

That is all I ask... but belating people... I don't know

I can tell you why I served, and I figured it many years later. It was my way to pay back to the country that opened its doors to my dad after the holocaust, for the record that was neither the US or Israel... and trust me, Squatch has a huge advantage over me... he knows he is going into a war zone. me it was the... are those mosquitoes, and then the cold realization that somebody was shooting at my rig with automatic fire. To say that I was not ready is to put it mid ly.

My husband, well he joined for the economic reasons many troops join for... in fact most do.

Then it came the duty to others in the service, and when he became a senior NCO, it was the duty to bring them home.

That is why many still go, even if this is wrong.

I thank you for understanding that people need to psych themselves up, but there is one thing I wish I could explain to people.. but when I left my kids behind... I felt I was betraying them...

And that is why many of your friends who chose to go went.



Also until this war is declared illegal, and the legal fig leave is off it (that is what I work for) troops have very little choices in answering deployment orders.

[uppityperson]

275. Rock and a hard place indeed.

Seems there are several things popping up in this thread. What choice does a person make. Why you must psych yourself up. Write and write and call and call again (congress and yes, I even write the white house even though I know THAT will do little). Pain, suffering, rock and a hard place and heartbreaking all around.

[nadinbrzezinski]

276. Yep it is a hard rock and a hard place

and I did have to make some very damn hard decisions.

Personally I hope he does not have to make those... leading troops is hard enough, and in my case taking care of patients was hard enough, as well as Triage.

The other thing that is coming up in this thread is actually multifaceted.

1.- There is a small but very vocal minority that could almost reach across to the right wing in how much they despise the troops. Yep, freepers hate the troops, not all, but a small and very loud minority does. Just as there are some liberals who also hate the troops. They just express it in different ways

For the freeper it is the ever so lovely, but, but they volunteered and they hate to fund VA and Military Medical Centers

For the Progressive it is expressed in things such as ... damn trained killers, and they get psyched up to go kill innocent people! Having gotten shot at I know that it is never that simple.

When you look under the hood... it is just hate, and truly lack of any clue of what goes on or why

2.- And again this is a very small but extremely vocal minoroty... we, well I, am asking them to do something they really don't want to do, and that is to do their duty as citizens. I am also asking of them to understand why troops cannot make policy... it is a very dark place indeed when any army starts making policy.

Lastly, there is this this almost magical belief that if I think something is wrong (and this war is by the way), somehow that transfers to legal standing. It does not, and that is why we need to continue working to take away the keys from the drunkard in chief. We owe the troops who deploy... the 98% of them who are good klds and do as they are told, and will qusstion ilegal orders (such as PfC Darbe, ) that we will bring them home. That is our duty. And that we will take care of them when they come home.

[uppityperson]

284. Looking disrespectfully at friends of mine who made the choice of prison vs VietNam

They had the choice, they chose different than this poster says has. These friends KNEW that they had no legal standing to not go, and chose to break the law and suffer the consequences instead because of their beliefs. They tried getting CO status during a time when it was not to be had. They were both preacher's kids too. 1 Vocal poster elsewhere in this thread says he does not respect them for their choice. It goes both ways.

There are choices. Neither of the choices are good, but there is a choice. Everyone must choose and live with their choice. It would be nice to figure out a way to say you don't agree but respect those who chose otherwise, but it gets quite confused emotionally since it is such an emotional situation.

As far as taking care of them when they return home, of course, that is very necessary and hardly ever happens very well. I went to college with vets, boyfriend, group of close friends. My father was a vet and went to school with other vets. Now my child will do the same.

[nadinbrzezinski]

287. Actually it was easier to get a CO

status back then...

And most of those went as medics and corpsmen

The problem is that going or not going is a personal decision but... in a draftee military not going is not going to have the stigma that it does in a volunteer force

And... Lt Ehrin Watada has gotten very little if any support for his decision (and the army is going to throw the book at him)

He has quite a bit of guts to make the decision he made, but from any objective legal look no standing whatsoever, and if 20% of the officers did the same, we would not see a stop to this war, but charges of mutiny across the force.

Asking troops to ruin their lives so we can get the satisfaction of saying he has guts is not something I am willing to ask of a troop. But then again I know the military system. that is why I work in their behalf

[sanskritwarrior]

200. So is this all the military does

or do we eat children as well???

[Lydia Leftcoast]

208. No, but apparently it produces a mindset of

surrendering one's moral judgments to the likes of Bush and Cheney.

I can understand being willing to die for something one believes in. Being willing to die and worse yet, kill, for something you don't even believe in is just madness.

Taking your posts together with the OP's being "pumped" about going over to Iraq, I have to infer that they make you guys drink gallons of Kool-Aid during basic training.

[sanskritwarrior]

210. We don't drink the Kool aid at all

we just understand there is a time to dissent and there is a time to do our jobs and make sure we bring all of our men home. It's ironic that patriotic dedication to duty is now listed under "Kool aid" drinking offenses......Are you sure you understand why people join the Army? So far you have thrown every single sterotype at me........

[Lydia Leftcoast]

215. Stereotypes based on experience, interacting first with

relatives who were in the military, with their "gotta do my duty no matter how stupid or immoral it is" mentality, and then with ROTC students during my teaching career, who were literally being taught that blind obedience was "leadership."

I know why the sons of those relatives go into the military. They're told all their lives that it's "the only thing that will make a man of them." I know why poor people join the military--all those ads promising enlistment bonuses of up to $20,000 and money for college. I know why my students in the 1980s were in ROTC--all other non-loan sources of financial aid had been cut. The KIA lists are all rural and urban working class youth, with small town addresses predominating. If being in the military is such a great, rewarding life, I have to wonder why NONE of the self-styled "leaders" in the Bush administration are urging their sons and daughters to sign up?

Going on a mission determined by stupid, greedy, immoral leaders is not patriotism. It's surrendering one's moral judgments. I pity the military personnel who feel that the bravest thing they can do is go die and kill for someone else's mad scheme. I applaud those who have the REAL courage to refuse to go and risk prison and/or exile. May their numbers increase, because that's the only thing that will get our chickenshit Congress' attention.

[Karenina]

222. I feel SO sorry for the cannon fodder

about to be dumped into the meat grinder... :cry:

[Karenina]

227. Making the world safe

for corporate predators. Whatever it takes.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

217. What you said. eom

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

209. Thank You For Your Bravery And My Deepest Prayers That You And Your Soldiers Return Safely.

:patriot:

[NotGivingUp]

231. How about the people that they will be shooting at....are you praying for them, too? eom

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

234. All I Can Say To You Is:

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes::eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes::eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[rug]

214. One man's deployment is another man's occupation.

[NotGivingUp]

223. you sound like a recruiter to me. i don't have much compassion for someone

who's getting off on the thought of killing innocent people. YOU are part of the war machine. turn it off.

[graywarrior]

224. Make sure you stay in touch like you promised.

[NotGivingUp]

225. again...i'm real surprised at the number of DUers cheering you on...makes me want to puke.

[babydollhead]

226. There is no such thing as a good war or a bad peace.

Peace takes courage! Don't go! Lay down your gun. Stop this madness.

[Individualist]

230. as am I

Yet some still insist that DU hasn't changed. :eyes:

[WritingIsMyReligion]

273. I must be as well.

Support is one thing. But this rah-rah-rah bullshit is ridiculous.

[Ariana Celeste]

278. your attitude is sickening

[wicket]

288. Yup

n/t

[sanskritwarrior]

280. I see someone with a lot of disrespect that makes me want to puke.......

n/t

[dropkickpa]

290. You are deliberately misinterpreting

to support your beliefs. I saw nowhere that the OP said he was excited about killing people. I interpreted military science as people management, strategy, skills that are taught in the military but that are not utilized except in combat situations. And I understood excitement as a "pumping up" type thing, a release of pent up energies (10 years in, 1st deployment), kind of the physics definition "being at an energy level higher than the ground state; reactive or more reactive."

Your attitude is the reason so many military people hate liberals. Your attitude immediately puts people on the defensive because it is confrontational and accusatory.

Do you hurl the same bile-filled invective towards the machinists making autoparts? Because they are contributing to the destruction of the earth. If not, why not? Do you own a car?

[NotGivingUp]

233. squatch...i noticed you made no mention on how you feel about going there and killing people. eom

[WritingIsMyReligion]

274. It's the military tactics thing.

;)

[Rosa Luxemburg]

235. hope you come back safe

[Ariana Celeste]

257. Good luck, bro

Check in if you ever get the chance... or have someone check in for ya :hug:

[Leopolds Ghost]

269. The attitudes expressed on this thread -- the notion that a macho military culture has its own rules

that supersede consideration of politics or morality --

And that each DUer has his own morality --

-- is why we are still in Iraq and why other Americans equate support for troops with support for their actions in Iraq.

The occupation of Iraq is immoral.

I agree with the Pope: Anyone who goes into Iraq as an occupier does not go with god.

It is up to them to square that with their personal conscience.

The fact that they are part of a million-man social and fitness club known as the Army/Marines does not make their actions any more moral, because the orders are immoral.

That does not make the troops immoral, it means that what they are doing is unethical and mistaken, and they need to square their commitment to God (or ethics) with their promise to serve their lord and master (an ethic enshrined in pre-Christian pagan morality).

Even German soldiers fighting for the Nazis sometimes did the right thing, but their actions as a whole were trapped by their commitment, their irrational pagan promise to serve until death. Many people view this promise as a noble thing, but not the poet who wrote "dulce et decorum est", nor the philosopher who said "turn the other cheek".

That is why I support the troops: because I care about them as people, and I know that by taking life -- innocent or not -- they are wearing down their capacity as good men and hurting their souls in the long run.

All religions, all philosophies teach this, and it's time someone said it because this is not WWII.

This is a media climate, a moral climate in which Americans are increasingly encouraged to behave, think, feel, buy, act in a uniform manner.

The Militarization of the Consumer, and the Commodification of Military Lifestyle.

Again, I SUPPORT THE TROOPS.

I hope Squatch does not witness combat (the reason he is over there) and is not forced to obey orders that would infringe on anyones human rights (impossible in an immoral occupation).

I support the troops because I know what battle did to my Grandfather in the forest of Germany, and I know why.

I believe the promise Squatch and others made was brave and noble.

Bravery and nobility were once exalted as the highest values, but they are NOT the highest values.

So Squatch and others who believe in the concept of moral values (I hope they all do) may find themselves conflicted.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

282. Excellent and thoughtful post

Yes, the most disturbing thing about the military mindset is the idea that one is supposed to surrender one's conscience to the Group.

A few years ago, I translated a book about the Nanjing Massacre, and it contained some stories of individual Japanese soldiers who helped individual Chinese escape. But these stories were in there because they were so rare.

The Japanese army was made up of young draftees who mostly had a sixth grade education and who had probably never been more than 100 miles away from home. Their society was quite stratified, so the draftees were at the bottom of the heap at home and even more so in the military, which was notorious for brutal training methods.

So you give a bunch of resentful 18-year-olds firearms, send them to a strange country full of people that they have a superiority complex toward, and, to top it off, issue a policy statement saying that it "doesn't matter" what they do with prisoners and civilians. The book that I translated showed an escalating pattern of atrocities against civilians as the Japanese army crossed China, beginning with looting farms for extra food, then killing farmers who resisted, then killing farmers before they resisted, then raping the women of the family before killing them, and so on, all the way to Nanjing, where the orgy of rape, looting, and killing went on for weeks. The officers encouraged the atrocities in some cases and ignored them in others.

It's safe to say that the Japanese soldiers were not brought up to be monsters. But groupthink among late adolescents is a powerful force. Having worked through that book, I can easly see how Abu Ghraib happened.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

272. I don't understand the "excitement" at all.

But then again, I always found the idea of defending my country by shooting people absolutely abhorrent and repulsive, as well as military life in general. I don't get what ANYBODY would like about fighting anybody else, ever, especially in the hellhole that appears to be Iraq right now. Iraq is a place for guerrilla warfare, not actual armies; I don't think any traditional military force inside there can fight the nontraditional insurgency.

Please come back alive--there's no honor in dying at all, not even "for our country."

[ConsAreLiars]

279. It's called adrenaline.

Learn to identify it and use it. In this case the "run away" response would be wiser.

(edit to add the obvious - best wishes and good luck.)

[yurbud]

285. read up on how to limit retention of radioactive crap

I think taking iodine helps, but look it up and see how much. That depleted uranium is a bitch.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

289. Yeah, good luck with that.

The insurgents are more experienced too.

That's why the casualty rate is going up, not down.

[guitar man]

291. Godspeed soldier

:patriot:

I never had any say in what duty I drew back when I served many moons ago,we went where we were sent. I guess that hasn't changed. Just know there are those of us who oppose this war that fully understand that and we're hopin' and prayin'for your safe return.