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Looks like another "British Empire" country has descended into chaos again..

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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 11:08 AM
Original message
Looks like another "British Empire" country has descended into chaos again..
Edited on Wed Jan-30-08 11:42 AM by SoCalDem
Kenya is apparently going down for the count..When political dissent is settled with machetes and guns, it's never a good sign..

Empires force people to "live together" but once they end, things almost always spiral out of control..

Too bad our own government seems to have no historians "on staff"..

Look at all the "formers" and you can see the trouble..



Formerly part of the empire:


Pakistan..not a bastion of democracy & happiness

India..getting poorer by the minute (except for the outsourcing of American jobs).. their rivers are cesspools, their population out of control..poor are getting poorer every day

Palestine...need I say more?

Sri Lanka(Ceylon)..permanent war since the British left

East Timor... all war all the time

Only Canada & Australia have escaped relatively unscathed, but then they are both more "British" than all the rest..

Wherever the indigenous people were the majority, things often did not go well for them at all, once they got their "independence"..


edited to add this scary link..just LOOK at all the wars:cry:
http://www.regiments.org/wars/wars.htm



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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
1. self-deleted after clarification from OP's author received.
Edited on Wed Jan-30-08 11:21 AM by Ken Burch
n/t.
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EmperorHasNoClothes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Clearly the argument was AGAINST empire
Give the OP another read, perhaps.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #1
8. Nope.. just that once a large nation "meddles" , things usually turn out badly
for the locals, once the "empire" collapses and they go "home"..

Like what's gonna happen in Iraq..no matter what we do..
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. It's true that the British left India badly, and we did likewise in Afghanistan after the fall of
the USSR.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. It was the last line in your post and the remarks about the U.S.and Canada being "British"
That made my "Spidey Sense" tingle.

Thanks for the clarification.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. I meant it from the standpoint that they were english speaking
and in most cases, they were the majority..and chose to stay where they were, instead of going "back to britain"..

:hi:
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TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
3. You realized the US should be on that list
We were the first to break away from the British Empire.
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dmallind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
4. India getting poorer by the minute?
Of course there's still poverty in India but they are now a net exporter of foreign aid, have one of the world's fastest growing economies and a middle class orders of magnitude larger than just a couple of decades ago. Also the world's largest democracy and positioned very well as a growing economic power.

By what earthly metric is India getting worse? Is this like Clinton creating all those extra poor people or what?
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. Look outside the elite ruling classes & the big business centers.
Their water supply is severly compromised, and the poorest of the poor are getting poorer by the minute..
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dmallind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #10
24. poorER is bullshit
All you are saying is poverty and squalor still exists in India. Big news there. Let's instead look at the real data shall we....

51.3% in poverty in 1977

19.3% in 2007


Rural (those poorest of the poor outside the "power centers") dropped from 53% to 21% in poverty


Meanwhile per capita GDP went from 1.8K in 1999 to 3.7K in 2006 - doubling in just seven years and up from three digits in the 70s (real terms). Yes at 3.7K India is still poor (although cost of living is very low and it does better in PPP scales) but to say it is poorer is either woefully misinfomed or wilfully dishonest.


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DS1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
5. *L*
Compare it to countries colonized by Spain or France and you'll see the Brits have a pretty good track record.
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
6. I agree that empire is a bad thing, but India is not getting poorer by the minute. To the contrary,
they are getting wealthier by the minute. Unless you have statistics demonstrating this trend?
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
7. The Luo is a good case to prove your point. When the colonialist
divided up east Africa, they did not take into account the natural tribal boundaries. The Luo suffered greatly by being carved up between three countries. That made them minorities in Kenya, Tanzania, and Uganda.

Remember the Mau Mau uprising? That was a reaction to the Luo wanting a say in Kenyan politics. Kenyatta led the Kikuyu on a bloody war against the Luo.

Obama is Luo I believe.


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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
9. the Seychelles and Ceylon are not the same. The Seychelles is a series of islands
in the Indian Ocean. Ceylon is the former name of Sri Lanka.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. Aaaak.. fixed it... Thanks
I didn;t think that sounded right when I typed it...but I overruled my brain :)
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #12
29. No problem. lol
We're halfway to the weekend, so that may cheer you up. :D
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
14. Singapore and Hong Kong, both hellholes
The incessant civil war in Bermuda. Ireland, of course, knows no end of misery, poverty and backwardness..
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #14
21. The Irish WERE "miserable" for a very long time..
but you're right about Bermuda.. Gotta be that magnificent scenery & weather :)

There are always some success stories, but empires don;t usually end well for the local people..British Empire or ANY imposing power.. The big guys often just pack up and go... and then wash their hands of the chaos that follows..

France knows about it now, too..
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. The Irish were miserable when ruled by Britain
They got their independence and things picked up.

Your thesis seems to be that empires do poorly for indigenous peoples (whatever the hell that means) when the empires pull back from the zenith of their power.

If you look at world history, things don't end well for local people. Until very recently in world history this earth was awash in endemic wars, poverty, illiteracy and disease. There is some evidence that we are evolving (genetically) away from that at long last.

Nobody, anywhere, was "happy". You just seem to be propagating the noble savage myth in which all was well until X people came along. It is childish and ahistorical. Was France/Gaul better off before Rome came, during the Roman Empire, or during the Dark Ages? Actually, for the average person in France, it sucked balls pretty much the entire time. At least during the Roman Empire the was not a constant existential threat of dying during an invasion or having one's family sold off into slavery.

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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
15. I find it funny you omitted Iraq, since its boundaries are a creation of the British Empire.
They threw together several different sectarian/ethnic groups, and look what that got them.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. Iraq was part of the whole Palestine "empire",
At least according to this map I checked..

I always thought it became a country when the British left

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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. The original map you posted didn't indicate anything in the ME area.
Your new map does.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. I resisted posting the bigger one, because of the "scrolly" bar
and got lazy..I should have resized it :) sorry :)
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mainegreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
17. Botswana, Guyana, Brunei, New Zealand not good enough for you?
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
20. I thought East Timor was a Portuguese colony. n/y
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #20
25. Originally it was, but Australia & even the US got involved in the 70's..why? OIL
Edited on Wed Jan-30-08 11:49 AM by SoCalDem
http://www.regiments.org/wars/20thcent/75timor.htm

The Fretilin government of East Timor declared independence in November 1975, setting off a chain of catastrophic consequences. The Indonesian Suharto dictatorship, abhoring a "communist" regime on its doorstep (which could also inspire other secessionist-minded provinces), wasted little time in exploiting the weakness of a small neighbour and invaded East Timor, installing the UDT and Apodeti as the government. Annexation, resettlement and genocide followed, with perhaps thirty percent of the Timorese population killed. The United States and Australia, smarting from a humilating defeat in Vietnam (yet too exhausted from that conflict to embark on new wars) and paranoid about more "dominoes" falling in Asia, secretly collaborated with the Indonesian invasion (as revealed by archives opened to the public in 2001). The Australian government was also motivated by the possibility of exploiting oil reserves off the Timor coast. Australian failure to help the people of Timor was deplored by a public who remembered Timorese heroism in resisting Japanese occupation during the Second World War.
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. Right, I was aware of all that. But I thought the OP was refereeing to the old
Edited on Wed Jan-30-08 12:41 PM by Guy Whitey Corngood
British Empire specifically. You know, people need to be "freed" from all that oil.
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CottonBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
22. Don't forget Grenada, West Indies.
Edited on Wed Jan-30-08 11:42 AM by CottonBear
They got independence from Britain in 1974 but are still part of the British Commonwealth.

When the Grenadian people overthrew their crazy, UFO fanatic Prime Minister, Eric Gairy, in favor of a populist government which would advocate for the poor, working people of the country, the USA (Reagan-Bush) invaded a teeny, tiny island nation which was misperceived as a communist threat in order to distract the US people from the disaster in Lebanon.
:(

Three of the Grenada 17 were recently released and there is hope for the remaining political prisoners to be released soon. Phyliis Coard, the sole female prisoner, was released a number of years ago because she had cancer. The US Government and military was complicit in a kangaroo trial and sentencing these people to death (which as finally commuted) and in keeping them in prison since 1986.

The US military and the CIA used Abu Ghraib torture techniques on the political prisoners in a foreshadowing of the human rights debacle in Iraq. :(

Three excellent links:

http://www.caribbeannetnews.com/2004/06/28/torture.htm
Grenada 17 says US torture of POWs not new
by Leroy Noel

Monday, June 28, 2004

ST GEORGE‘S, Grenada:
The 17 persons convicted in Grenada for the death of former Prime Minister Maurice Bishop and several of his cabinet colleagues say reports of the humiliation and torture of prisoners of war in Iraq, Afghanistan and at Guantanamo Bay, by their US military captors are nothing new.

A statement from the Grenada 17 says official US spokespersons have sought to portray these horrible abuses as recent, isolated incidents by out-of-control individual soldiers, and not the result of official US policy but those who lived through the US invasion of Grenada know the truth.

...snip...

The Grenada 17 indicated that guard-dogs were set halfway into the sweat boxes to terrorize them; abuse, including racist abuse, was screamed at them day and night by the soldiers; and the boxes were constantly beaten at night so as to deprive the detainees of sleep. They were kept in those boxes on the asphalt tarmac for days or weeks, in the sun, in the stifling daytime heat. Leaks in the boxes let in the heavy October night rains, so that they shivered in their wet clothes night after night, many becoming ill they claimed.

...snip...

The committee added that black plastic bags were placed over the heads of the three most senior Grenadian military officers, to half-stifle them. Former ministers of the Grenadian government were deliberately humiliated by being publicly paraded half-naked, blindfolded and manacled; video film and photographs of them were shown around the world. All of the above is in violation of international law as regards the treatment of prisoners of war.
http://www.caribbeannetnews.com/2004/06/28/torture.htm




The Last Prisoners of the Cold War are Black by Rich Gibson: http://www.geocities.com/elethinker/RG/GrenadaupdateMarch2001.htm


Monthly Review
From: Dr. Rich Gibson
San Diego State University
College of Education
San Diego CA 92120

rgibson@pipeline.com

The Last Prisoners of the Cold War Are Black

On March 13, 1979 a revolution took place in Grenada, the first in an African-Caribbean country, the first in the English-speaking world. The people who made up the revolutionary cadre were quite young, average age around 27, and the uppermost leadership was mostly middle class, educated abroad. They called themselves the New Jewel Movement (NJM). The revolution, or coup as some called it, was popular, a move to replace a somewhat mad dictator named Eric Gairy who spent much of the tiny country's (pop 100,000) resources on investigating the reason Grenada was a key landing point for flying saucers. When I interviewed Gairy in 1996, he told me he was immortal, God. He died in 1997; has not been seen since.

...snip...

The NJM leadership were socialists, though their socialism was eclectic--hardly the doctrinaire image the U.S. later created. They borrowed and won investments from any government they could, from the British to the USSR to Iraq and Cuba (which provided mostly doctors, construction specialists, nurses, and educators). They began a mass literacy project (led by Paulo Freire), quickly improved medical care, began to set up processing plants for fish and spices, and started building a jet-port. The country had a tiny landing strip only able to introduce prop planes, a problem for an economy tied up with tourist interests. The plan, in general, was to build national economic development by expanding existing forms of production (agriculture, tourism, etc.) and by creating a new class of technologically competent workers who might use their skills to create a role for Grenada in the information-economy as well. The educational programs had a critical part in that project.

To claim that the NJM rule was a model of egalitarian democracy, as much of the chic left did at the time, would be off-point. It wasn't. While Angela Davis and Maurice Bishop danced during Carnival in the beautiful house allotted to revo leaders, democracy and equality went on the back burner in favor of national economic development, and the party became privileged in terms of decision-making power and the distribution of goods: the shipwreck of most socialist movements. Women cadre were often doing the work (as well as the home work). Some men issued orders and took advantage of prestige. The NJM arrested people and held them without charge. A few citizens were killed under circumstances which were at best questionable. But NJM was under terrific pressure. The US quickly moved to crush the revo, made tourism nearly impossible for U.S. citizens, and it is fairly clear that the CIA made several attempts to murder key leaders. In four years, by 1983, the NJM was in real trouble.

NJM grew more isolated from the people. Rather than reach out, the party turned inward. The leadership tried to rely on a correct analysis and the right orders rather than to build a popular base. Even though there was no question that Bishop would win elections, the NJM leaders refused to hold them. The NJM top central committee remained a very exclusive bunch. In 1982 and 1983, clear disagreements began to emerge within the entire organization. The leadership turned inward.

...snip...

Shortly afterward, US troops were blown up in their barracks in Lebanon. President Ronald Reagan took to the TV, announcing he had discovered, through satellite photos, that the Cubans were building a secret Soviet-Cuban military airstrip in Grenada. Actually tourists were frequently taken there, US medical students jogged each day on the airstrip. The main financial support for the airport came not from the U.S.S.R. nor from Cuba, but from Margaret Thatcher's Britain. Reagan declared the US medical students to be in grave danger, said that the NJM was a threat to all regional security, got the organization of Caribbean nations to back him, and invaded a country the size of Kalamazoo with a massive military force, under a precedent- setting news blackout. Though the medical students were radioing out that they were in no danger, US rangers "saved" them, after U.S. jets bombed a mental hospital. Remarkably, it is clear that Castro was forewarned of the invasion and that Cuban troops tasked to stop the US landing at the new airport never fired their weapons at the Rangers making parachute drops on the runway-until the Rangers later attacked them. The Cubans had told the Grenadian military that they would defend the airport area. The invasion of Grenada (popular among most of the people sickened by the long collapse of the NJM) was complete in a week. It was, however, denounced as illegal by the U.N. Security Council, by Margaret Thatcher and the British government, and by a myriad of US congress-people.

Seventeen NJM leaders were charged with the murder of Bishop and the others, though it is clear that most of them were nowhere near the incident, or could not have participated, like the commander of the fort who was locked in a cell. According to affidavits filed by former U.S. attorney general Ramsey Clark, the NJM leaders were denied attorneys. They were tried by jurors who chanted "guilty" at them during jury selection, in trails led by judges hand-picked and paid by the U.S. They were unable to make a defense in the kangaroo atmosphere. Their lawyers fled Grenada after a series of death threats. Key witnesses, like a bodyguard who was present when Bishop created and ordered the death threat rumor, were denied the right to testify. Fourteen of the NJM members were sentenced to death.

In prison, they were tortured for eight years, according to statements made to me be a former prison warden. Torture was especially horrible for the lone woman, Phyllis Coard, who was held in near-total isolation for years simply because few women are jailed in Grenada. In 1991, after their children had been introduced to the fellow who was to hang them from a prison courtyard gallows, the sentences were commuted to life. The New Jewel leaders are still serving time in a prison built in the late 1700's. The last prisoners of the cold war are black. Their health is rapidly fading. Despite tremendous obstacles created by prison officials over the years, the NJM prisoners are conducting one of the most successful literacy campaigns in the country. Less than two in ten of the program' grads return to the Richmond Hill jail. As of October 2001, the NJM prisoners, will have served 18 years. Phyllis Coard was released in 2000 to seek cancer treatment abroad, following an international outcry on her behalf. She is expected to return to the jail following treatment.

I filed a Freedom of Information suit demanding documents which were seized by the US and kept out of the trial. The US military seized, literally, tons of documents in Grenada immediately following the invasion. The documents were sifted and some of them later appeared in a book called the Grenada Documents. This suit came to court in Detroit on November 10th, 1997, after delays of more than one year. In October, 1998, Judge Hood gave the U.S. government thirty days to give me the documents. To date, the US has released a ream of blacked-out material, some of it indicating that the US clearly interfered in the trial of the Grenada prisoners. However, the US insists that the remaining documents were all returned to Grenada. The Grenada government denies ever receiving the material.

I spent 1996 in Grenada on a Fulbright interviewing many of the jailed NJM leaders. To say they are innocent of everything is not the case. To say they are innocent of the charges brought against them is. And to say they are being subjected to horrible conditions and denied due process is also true. While it may not be politic to argue for the freedom of people with whom I have disagreements, it remains that their imprisonment is a great wrong that needs to be righted. And the truth of the Grenada revo, and its destruction, needs to be known.

To Rich Gibson's Home Page



The Grenada Revolution Online (a scholarly and historic overview and current Grenadian events website) This site is objective and comnprehensive.
The Grenada Revolution
"Learn the basics of the story of The Grenada Revolution online.
In 1983, the United States was part of Grenada's history.
Discover what happened and why."
http://www.thegrenadarevolutiononline.com/index.html
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
26. The British ruled indirectly - meaning they ruled through one cultural group
or another. And played them off against each other. The tradgedy of Kenya is that is was relatively violence free for a time.
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Retrograde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
30. South Africa seems to be on an upswing
and Ghana doesn't seem to be doing too badly. Meanwhile, the former Yugoslavia went back to finding excuses for fighting as soon as their strongman died.

I actually like the idea of having different peoples living together. Too bad it doesn't work out very often.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. If they are together willingly, without some other power pitting them against each other
it's probably a positive thing..

Just about every "empire" I can think of was more about pillaging the wealth and resources from some weaker country, than it was about altruism.

And most empires end in pretty inelegant manners, so when they do leave, there is often mass unrest that the locals cannot control or may not even want to control, as some see opportunities to take over and rule, themselves..
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