What is the value of beloved politcal names? Like Kennedy.

[Stinky The Clown]

(Mods, ***please** consider the intent of this post. The fact that the Kennedy name and a primary candidate have been linked is tangential to the point of this thread, albeit while still being the thread's inspiration. I am NOT a supporter of either of our candidates and hope that this thread can stay true to its intent and not become about the primaries.)

I am posting this in GD in hopes of getting less than over the top, overheated answers from candidate supporters.

When the Kennedys endorsed a candidate in a way that seemed to indicate not just support, but even the passing of a mantle, does the name really have that power any more?

I tried considering this, but I remember clearly all of the Kennedy years. The campaign, the national love affair with Jackie. Camelot. Touch football in Hyannis Port. That famous black and white walk on the beach in a stiff breeze. The events in Dallas. The red stain on the pink dress. The little boy saluting his father as if he knew - really knew. I remember it all as if it were yesterday.

For me, the endorsement cut both ways. It was incredibly powerful - moving even - to hear the words in the moment as delivered by the only survivor of those great and terrible years. It was also a bit too much. Was the recipient of that endorsement as much as the man who started it all and who now lives in so many of us my age and older as a larger than life mythical figure - beloved yet never fully found, never fully realized.

So how do those younger than me see the value of the Kennedy name? In the same way I see the name of FDR? FDR who I know only from what my parents and grandparents said about him. Only what I can deduce of him by reading history. I compare my feelings about FDR to those about JFK and they can't compare. I can't believe that, in terms of accomplishment and probably even the ability to lead, FDR was more than JFK. Yet, having been there in the Kennedy years, JFK, in my head and in my heart, still has the power to inspire me.

Does he do that for those of you who don't have much if any first hand memory? Is there the same inspiration in Teddy, who we all know? In the kids of the three brothers?

In Caroline or JFK, Jr., specifically?

And what about other (lesser) political families? Does, just by way of example, Joe Biden's son benefit from his Dad's luster? Paul Sarbannes' kid? Jesse Jackson' son?

Again, I hope this discussion can get past the specific endorsement that provided its inspiration and instead stay on the topic of the value of a political family name.

[stellanoir]

1. There is a theory

that what fathers project to the world they often fail to provide their children.

It's the old cobbler's kids going shoeless scenario. It's also akin to how qualities often skip a generation.

All of that aside, I can't recall the Kennedy clan coming out for an endorsement before or ever remember one packing such a wallop.

Nor can I ever remember a political rally evoking tears in the way Monday's did with me.

In essence I think it's a mixed bag when it comes to multiple generations of various clans. Some have more congruent energy and then there are some who are starkly rebellious.

Like most I wish JFKjr hadn't expired so tragically and prematurely. He was masterful in so many ways of which people have no clue.

Caroline couldn't possibly be any more sincere or heart centered.

Just my 2 cents.

[Stinky The Clown]

2. Evoking tears ......

Yeah, it affected Sparkly that way, too.

I can't past the idea that it affected those of us who were there in the Kennedy years differently than those of us who were too young to recall first hand.

I really hope younger people reply to this and take part in the discussion, too.

[Coexist]

20. Those speeches

and Obamas gracious reception of them, had me crying and crying.

And I have to say - I held my breath when Obama stood up, and watched how he treated them... I was so scared he was going to fuck up MY moment. He honored what the Kennedy's were to this country - to a generation. And I cried even harder.

It was one hell of an endorsement. And at the time, I supported Edwards.

[onenote]

3. I can't really psychoanalyze, but I know how I feel about it

I'm of the same generation as you...and I remember the excitement and the optimism and the glamour that surrounded the JFK White House. I grew up outside DC and our neighbors included prominent members of the JFK circle, including Pierre Salinger. My first memory of JFK's name is seeing it on a bumper sticker on a family friend's car -- the family friends that were always the first to have cool new things, like a color tv, a corvair, a sunken living room. I can still see my dad's invitation to JFK's inaugural ball (was it a "real" invite or just some "collectible" invite -- I don't know). There was just this feeling about it.

And I don't ever recall that feeling coming back after JFK's assasination, not in the same way. In 68 I was torn between RFK and McCarthy. And when it ended being HHH, I did my best to support him, but at that point the enthusiasm that I had felt about politics was drained. I've supported every Democratic candidate since then, but again without ever sensing the same feelings I sensed about the Kennedy years.

Is it real or is it just rose colored glasses? It doesn't really matter. It feels real to me. The emotions. WHen Lloyd Bentsen reminded Dan Quayle that he was no Jack Kennedy, I cheered,but I also looked around and didn't see any other Jack Kennedy's out there.

Is Obama JFK? No. Is some of the excitement that seems to be generated make me think that there is a possibility that he could evoke some of those old memories. I think so. The world is so different that comparisons between eras are a fool's game. But I have to admit that I'm affected by the Caroline Kennedy ad more than I would expect. I suppose if RFK Jr had done an ad for HRC, it might also have affected me, but I think the Caroline ad just has more impact because of the emotional connection

[Stinky The Clown]

4. Look up at Stellanoir's comment about Caroline's sincerity .......

..... I can't imagine it being better said that that.

Yeah, I find myself affected by the endorsement and the follow-ups. Like you, more than I might have imagined. But then I come back to the candidate and i don't understand it.

Except for the still shimmering glow that was Camelot - still alive inside me.

[onenote]

5. funny thing, that camelot

Last summer I took my wife (who is a few years younger and thus has fewer memories/emotions relating to the JFK years) to see the musical Camelot. Once upon a time, when I was a kid, going out to a musical (Hello Dolly, Fiddler on the Roof, Man of La Mancha, etc) was a big thing, but its not something I do that often any more. Anyway, its an okay show, but I got to tell you, the associations between that show and the JFK years came flooding back as I watched it, even though I probably hadn't thought about the show or its music in forty plus years.

Go figure.

[SoCalDem]

6. People are sentimental creatures, and they like heroes.

FDR was a hero to the poor downtrodden USA in the 30's..

JFK was a heroic figure who was brutally murdered in front of his wife..and in front of US.. and then a few years later, his younger , more idealistic brother was murdered too..and left a pregnant wife and 10 children behind.. this is the stuff of the epic novel..

Many people don't remember, but there was a backlash for a while when Jackie became Jackie O..and it really wasn't until she came back and divorced Onassis, that the "name" became warm & fuzzy again.

The tragedy that befalls us all in our own lives is played out LARGE in those big monarchal families, and they do play it up too, to their advantage when necessary....and we all love "the storybook" nature of it all..

[Stinky The Clown]

7. I understand what you're saying .........

..... but Camelot started before he took office. When there was nothing but hope for the future and it was a sunny day. The ugliness may be contributing to the myth we have today, but the early days of Camelot were very real. The country was in love with the Kennedys.

[EFerrari]

8. The world was in love with the Kennedys, remember?

"I'm the man who accompanied Jacqueline Kennedy to Paris."

I remember that quote VERBATIM and I was only five. :)

[Stinky The Clown]

9. Very true

And I guess that's my point. The love the country - the world - felt for them was very real and permeated everything for those years before his trip to Dallas.

You were only five and you remember a quote verbatim. Think about that. How many other memories do yu have of the time you were five? Not many, I'd bet.

Since you're younger, do you have any views on my OP? On the value of the name in today's world? Does it resonate with people too young to remember Camelot first hand?

[EFerrari]

10. I posted this to ask that very question:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2795105&mesg_id=2795105

I only have two earlier memories. I remember going up some stairs with my grandmother to pay the rent and asking for candy from the landlady when I was told NOT to do that. And I have a memory of when my grandfather died, fuzzy and mostly aural. I remember screaming and crying -- he died in my room while I was napping and my poor family found him there.

So, JFK and the Kennedys were instrumental in how I learned to think about all of us. It was a sort of cocky, optimistic but respectful take on who we were. There was a sense of possibility and of being able to take on challenges.

[Virginia Dare]

14. Jackie and JFK, the epitome of class and dignity..

my GOD how far we've fallen..

[ebdarcy]

11. I think the name still matters.

I'm 28 years old. So, obviously, I never experienced Camelot. But, I don't remember ever not knowing who JFK was. I mean, I remember when I first learned about the Constitution and The Declaration. I remember when I first learned that the republicans were the bad guys. But I don't ever remember learning about JFK. That knowledge was just always kind of there.

Now, I come from a family of democrats, but it's not as if politics was constantly discussed. But, the Kennedys were always important. The only time my grandma ever voted was in the 1960 presidential election. My mother was 11 when JFK was killed. And while she admired him, she idolized Robert Kennedy. Their lives and deaths made a big impact on my mother.

When I told my mother that Caroline and Ted were endorsing Obama, she immediately understood. She sees the resemblance. She saw and remarked on the resemblance during Obama's keynote address in 2004. But, she says Obama reminds her more of Robert than of John.

I greatly respect Ted Kennedy, and his endorsement does carry weight with me. I read Caroline's op-ed, and I thought it was touching. Caroline's endorsement does not mean as much to me, but it still matters, precisely because she is a Kennedy. I will always notice when a Kennedy speaks. I may not be influenced, and I may not agree, but I will notice.

Of course, I might be an isolated case. I mean, how many other kids were warped by their families and conditioned to react to the Kennedy name?

Anyway, that's my two cents.

[Stinky The Clown]

12. Thanks for that. I have a question ......

..... (please take only respect for you from this question).

I feel an inspiration from JFK that, it seems to me, can only come of having known him in real life, not as an historical figure. Its pretty visceral.

You say you always sort of knew about JFK. I understand you got that, to a great degree, from your parents. Do you feel the same about him as about an inspirational leader you know from your own life?

I'm having trouble articulating what I want to ask. I guess it may be a hard thing to compare. It also requires some understanding of what I'm saying I feel about him.

Anyway ..... any further light you can shed, I'd appreciate it.

(And gawd .... it pains me ..... I have kids older than you and I'm older than your mother. Just call me Geezer the Clown instead of Stinky! :) )

[ebdarcy]

15. I think I understand what you're trying to ask.

But, I could be wrong. So, I'll try to answer and I hope I make sense.

When I read or watch a program about the 60's, I'm amazed. It just seems like so much change was occurring. So many people were united, trying to make America a better place, trying to end an unjust war. I understand that it was extremely turbulent, and I know I will never be able to grasp the entirety of the 60's, but it just astounds me that so many people were trying. It's just not something I see today. It just seems like it was an amazing era.

Anyway, I think what you're trying to say is that living the whole thing and actually experiencing JFK makes it more real, that the depth of feeling is greater. And I agree with that sentiment. While I certainly understand something of the mystique, I'm not emotionally invested in it. I don't have the personal memories to draw from. When my mom talks about Bobby Kennedy, I can hear the emotion in her voice. It's tangible. It's not the same for me. I see the Kennedys, like FDR, as historical figures. So, while I admire them for what they did, for what they tried to do and for what they represented, I know it's not the same for me as it is for those who actually lived it. I didn't experience it, didn't hear the speeches in that climate, or in that context. So, the admiration I feel can't compare to the inspiration you feel. Also, my admiration for the Kennedys doesn't compare to the inspiration I get from my personal heroes. That's not to say that I don't have personal heroes from previous eras, it just means that John and Robert Kennedy don't mean as much to me as they could have and probably would have, had I lived during that time period.

So, I hope my answer made sense.

(And don't think of yourself as a geezer, think of yourself as wise and experienced.:) )

[Stinky The Clown]

22. Thanks again for taking the time to reply fully

I had suspected what you said to be the case. I also suspect its a pretty universal truth. As I said in my OP, I think, analytically, that FDR was a greater leader than JFK, I don't feel the same inspiration from one as from the other as only one of them is "real" to me.

I hope more young people weigh in here.

[ThomWV]

13. Ted Kennedy sees a lot more than I do, the younger ones mean little to me

[TahitiNut]

16. William JEFFERSON Clinton

I dunno. :dunce:

[undeterred]

17. I worked for a Democratic candidate named Kennedy in Wisconsin

Somebody asked me if he was one of the Massachusetts Kennedys. I started laughing. I said, if he was, he'd be on the east coast, not in Wisconsin, and he wouldn't be having grassroots fundraisers. And I'd have a nicer car to put the bumper sticker on!

[sandnsea]

18. Caroline is such an amazing woman

She has walked her own path, done services in her own way, not bowed to any outside pressures to carry on any legacy. She lived her life, her way, exactly the way her mother would have wanted. And when the time came, she went way outside her comfort zone and stood up for the country. I think that's incredible and it means the world to me.

[Horse with no Name]

19. I really think that the American people romanticize the monarchy

Look at our affection for Princess Diana and Princess Grace.
The Kennedy's were the closest thing we ever had to royalty in this country. And Caroline...Sweet Caroline...who could ever forget the pictures of kids in the White House!
She even looks like her Daddy and has the grace of her mother. What a combination.
I will ALWAYS be in awe and admiration of Caroline and I shed more than one tear when John Jr. died.

[XboxWarrior]

21. Well he's dead......

But what about the Adam's legacy?

What happened to that?

I want some Adam's endorsements.......



and the "Quincy"



What ever happened to that family legacy? (i hope the same
thing that falls to the Bush's)