"I hated the gooks. I will hate them as long as I live." - John McCain

[Bluebear]

This intemperate, hotheaded man is not fit to be President of the United States.

[ginnyinWI]

1. baggage. n/t

[Buzz Clik]

2. I can see why you'd see that statement and follow up the way you did.

Hell, they only tortured him and caged him for years on end.

We have people at DU who say worse things about George Bush.

[Bluebear]

4. It's an offense to Asians and I am not surprised you defend the quote.

[Buzz Clik]

46. I love the DU hysterical logic chain:

I contest the notion that despising one's torturers makes one unsuitable for the presidency, and suddenly I'm defending the statement. And you're "not surprised" that I "defend the quote."

Fucking brilliant.

[stillcool]

100. Unfortunately the term "gooks"..

is applied to more than 'torturers' as we all know. That said, it is quite acceptable in this country to characterize large swaths of peoples in derisive, derogatory terms. It's what makes us so special.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

130. Im sorry you htink this is uniqe to the US?

"it is quite acceptable in this country to characterize large swaths of peoples in derisive, derogatory terms."

[stillcool]

actually I was not aware of it...

in this country before this election season. I thought it was relegated to a dying breed of small minded bigots... like the Republican Party. Thank God I have had such an enlightening experience.

[EFerrari]

164. Yes. The lesson is, if you have been wronged by someone

you are cleared to go straight for the bigotry. We'll understand.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

167. Its everywhere in the world..

[stillcool]

169. Not in my part of the world.

we kind of grew out of that in puberty.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

183. Please tell me gegraphically where it does ont exist...

[stillcool]

188. I live in the northeast...

I'm not saying that bigots don't exist, but it is in no way as prevalent as it is here on DU, nor as overt. I don't know if it's the age group, the environment in which people grew up...maybe it is geographical. Maybe if people are born to a certain place with a certain breed of people, and never travel outside that parameter it's easier to hate an entire culture.

[treestar]

261. And it is wrong no matter where it is

[marshall]

255. He has an adopted child from Bangladesh

I wonder what he considers her?

[stillcool]

256. Obviously she is different...

but I wonder what term she uses to describe Vietnamese?

[NeedleCast]

279. DU'ers do it all the time

It's just usually directed at our political opponets so most think its just fine. The concept that it's okay to denegrate large swaths of people because they disagree with you is alive and well here.

[roguevalley]

178. actually, that sort of talk and his hair trigger are going to sink him

in the end. one bad day and the world will see him for what he is. For the sake of his immortal soul, he needs to take care of that somehow. That is the fuel that will lead us to nuking Iran if he's elected. It is important, if not for the bigotry but for the fuel that will lead us all to hell if he ever gets power.

John McCain isn't fit to be President. Period.

[Bluebear]

213. I'm not surprised because you are generally a DU contrarian.

[JerseygirlCT]

223. But he didn't say he despised his torturers. He indicted an entire

group of people -- and used a nasty slur in doing it, to boot.

Using your logic, there are a lot of people around the world well justified in hating your guts because of what the Bush administration is doing in Iraq or Guantanamo.

[BoneDaddy]

276. Don't worry about it

When you speak rationally, it means that you are a card carrying republican who supports GW BUSH in everything, support torture and are a fascist.

What many Duers are guilty of is the same knee jerk, irrational, hate filled, diatribes that they claim come from the right. And if you point this out you suddenly become the "enemy". It is sad, pathetic and what turns me off most about this site.

[Squatch]

49. I'm not going to defend the quote, but I sure as hell am not going to hold it against him

Six years in a NVA prisoner of war camp being beaten and broken to the point where you try to kill yourself and are forced to denounce your country...well, I'd harbor similar feelings for a long, long time.

[EFerrari]

64. Unlike McCain, I doubt that you would turn around and help inflict

the same treatment on others.

[Buzz Clik]

81. Are you suggesting that McCain endorses the use of torture by the U.S.? If so, you're wrong.

[TwilightGardener]

85. No--but he won't hesitate to bomb the shit out of a race or nationality he deems "the enemy".

[EFerrari]

93. He's denounced torture publicly and continued in every other way

to support the torture president. Can you be a little pregnant?

/spelling

[Buzz Clik]

96. Ok. So you don't like him because he supported Bush. Me, too.

I don't think he supports torture. I don't think he's insane or racist.

[EFerrari]

165. The thing is, in supporting Bush, he is supporting torture

no matter what he says about that topic.

And, he does seem to have a history of an exploding temper -- which isn't the same thing as insanity, granted.

And lastly, I don't know anyone but racists that reach for that kind of language for any reason.

There is another scenario that is possible: he said it to score points with the mouth breathers. That seems just as likely to me. Sort of like Hukkkabee making a point to honor the Confederate battle flag. :shrug:

[Buzz Clik]

197. Really. So if I vote for Hillary, I automatically support every position she endorses?

You and I agree on many things, but not this.

[EFerrari]

200. And that's very fair. n/t

[The Stranger]

280. The War and the Constitution are not just any issues.

They are the most important things facing the country in decades, if not a century.

Therefore, someone's position on them are critical to whether or not they should receive support.

[treestar]

263. If he hates that group, why would he think any treatment

againt them unjustified?

You're the one defending his hatred for the entire nationality or ethnic group because some of them treated him badly. By that token, we are all as bad as Lynndie what's-her-name because we are also American.

Someone of the level to be President should be bigger than that. Hell, anyone should be, and there probably are some who are, even if they experienced things as bad as McPain did.

[blondeatlast]

277. He talked the talk for the cameras, but bent over and voted George's way when it counted, below:

Oversight of CIA Interrogation and Detention Amendment: No

http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_keyvote_detail.php?cs_id=V3920&can_id=53270

I remember it well--he was on all the MSM doing his "maverick" thing talking about how he was going to make Bush make compromises, etc. But damn if he didn't vote George's way as he has nearly every time.

[High Plains]

114. Gee, maybe he shouldn't have been bombing people in a foreign country.

[Buzz Clik]

123. Interesting. You're justifying McCain's treatment in Vietnam?

[High Plains]

171. No. He was treated badly. But what do you expect when you're

dropping bombs on people? War is ugly like that. That's a good reason not to start more of them.

[Buzz Clik]

176. I expect people to be treated humanely. That's just me...

[Virginia Dare]

179. Like we are in Iraq?

or Gitmo? That's why McCain is so bipolar when it comes to this "war" (which is really an occupation). He can't not know what's going on there.

[TwilightGardener]

180. War is not humane. Nothing about it is--that's the whole point of it.

The point of war is to bring a certain group of humanity to its knees. Torture is just taking the inhumanity to a higher, more personal level. But we shouldn't have gone to Vietnam in the first place, and we shouldn't be in Iraq either, if we don't want our servicemen to be exposed to such horrors for such little benefit to our country, and we certainly shouldn't be doing it ourselves.

[coalition_unwilling]

192. The U.S. and its puppet regime caused the deaths conservatively

of well over 2 million southeast Asians, most of them civilians, from 1954-1974.

McCain is such a hero, flying at high altitudes, dropping bombs on civilians whon he can't even see. And then to call them "gooks"??? McCain and people like him make me ashamed that I am American

[Buzz Clik]

196. Those of us here who lived through Vietnam hated it.

I had two brothers serve in Vietnam. I'm assuming that they make you ashamed, too.

[coalition_unwilling]

222. If your brothers were flying high-altitude missions in B-52s and

bombing Hanoi, yes they make me ashamed. (Check out the bombing campaign on Hanoi in December 1972 for more information on this topic.)

[treestar]

264. It's the equivalent of your justifying his hatred.

Of the entire group. By the same logic, the Vietnamese would be entitled to hate us all, too. That's applying the same logic. You have a double standard here, worthy of right wingers. It's OK for McCain to hate them all, but we should be judged as individuals.

Sorry, the world does not see your American superiority, and will not agree to be judged by us while not judging us. If we claim we are not to be hated for the bad acts of some of us, why are we allowed to hate whole groups for the bad acts of a few of them? By your logic Al Qaida is totally justified.

[treestar]

262. Against the entire race/nationality?

Sorry, a statesman can overcome that. No one who can't is fit to be President. If he was that traumatized, then he'd better stay out of the job. We have enough personal vendetta stuff with Chimpy going after the guy who threatened his Dad. The Presidency is not the place to work out your personal issues.

This is the entire crux of any continuing conflict! It is what the world needs to move ahead on.

This kind of hatred for a group is never justified. There's always someone in that group who never approved of what his co-national was doing.

[Djinn]

260. actually very few Chinese

or Japanese or Koreans I've met take issue with it at all given it has nothing to do with them.

I don't defend the quote anymore than I defend my grandfather (in law) talking about the 'Nips' and how horrible they were however I understand that I wasn't sent into a hellhole at the age of 19 to fight a war I didn't understand and that perhaps it's a little easier to be tolerant from the perspective of a nice peaceful life.

If you want to take this as "excusing" the remarks then go ahead, it's not like over-simplifying things makes you alone in US politics

[leftofthedial]

14. george bush is not an entire race

[Buzz Clik]

50. I have this sneaking suspicion that McCain was referring only to his captors, not an entire race.

:eyes:

[TwilightGardener]

58. You know, we pretty much expect that he would hate his torturers--

that's normal. What's not normal is using an ethnic slur--no impulse control. He could have said "North Vietnamese", but he deliberately chose a slur that covers all of Southeast Asia. Be as sympathetic as you want, but this man is not fit to be President, for this and many other reasons. It's sad and unfair, but he really is mentally damaged.

[Buzz Clik]

61. I agree with the "many other reasons" part. This single incident? Not at all.

Is this a trend in McCain? Does he have a history of flying off into racist diatribes? Does he see a person of color and instantly label them? We certainly have plenty of precedent for that kind of behavior ("Macaca"), and those idiots are flushed.

The strangest part of this argument is that DU is constantly repeating, "We understand why 'they' hate the United States." We tolerate being called The Great Satan or similar slurs because our government has done horrible things to a lot of countries. But, a political opponent is suddenly an intolerant racist bastard who is unfit to lead for doing exactly the same thing. I'm going for consistency on this one: I'll tolerate McCain's one-time usage of a racist slur because of the circumstance. I'll look for other reasons not to vote for him.

[TwilightGardener]

65. "Single incident"? This man has spent his adult life seething over

our "defeat" in Vietnam and over his abuse. Again, while he deserves our sympathy, it's plain to see he is not mentally healthy nor in full control of his impulses--and his rage is not an isolated incident--there are NUMEROUS incidents of this man not being able to control himself among colleagues, in highly-charged situations. Sorry, you can apologize for him and minimize this all you want, but just as Chimpy was not mentally fit enough to be President with all of his alcohol-addled brain cells, neither is McCain with his obvious emotional problems.

[Buzz Clik]

67. Now we're psychoanalyzing him. I think I'll stop right here. Let's get back to issues.

[TwilightGardener]

70. Sorry, temperament and emotional stability IS a Presidential issue--a MAJOR one, for all candidates.

[Buzz Clik]

73. Ugh. This sounds like a phone conversation on Limbaugh's show from 2000.

You may be right -- he may be crazy (tip of the hat to Bill Joel), but all the comments related to that are pure hearsay and right out of the Karl Rove playbook.

I don't need that kind of whispering to find reasons to vote against him.

[TwilightGardener]

84. I thought all of the Republican whispers about this in 2000 were bullshit smears

against him. I thought it was just dirty and unfair tactics to ensure McCain lost to Chimpy--I was unfamiliar with McCain in 2000, and liked him--I bought into the whole Maverick meme. I have since personally observed him for the last 7 years, expecting he would run again for Prez, and now I see why most of his colleagues do NOT support him. Relatively few Repub Senators have stepped up to support or endorse him, despite the fact that he's been in the Senate for 25 years, and despite the fact that it's "his turn"--that speaks volumes, and cannot be dismissed.

[Buzz Clik]

90. And you mark all that up to him being mentally unstable?

I think others (GOP Senators) describe more accurately when they are annoyed at him for constantly resisting some of their pet projects and policies (like torture, fer crissakes!).

I don't endorse McCain, but I find this stuff really hard to swallow.

[TwilightGardener]

97. No, the other GOP Senators don't like him because he screams at

them, belittles them, calls them assholes and tells them to go fuck themsleves. He did it to John Cornyn, most recently, and they were on the same side during the immigration debate. They think he's an arrogant, temperamental, grandstanding prick. He never held the chairmanship of any committees, after 25 years--he doesn't have the support of his leadership or of his colleagues, and no, they're not all "bad guys" who simply don't like his bipartisan cooperation or anti-torture views or his willingness to oppose their "evil" legislation. Some very reasonable GOP Senators don't want anything to do with him.

[Buzz Clik]

98. This has gone off on a tangent of sorts. I'll concede a bit, but also make a correction

I've heard that he can "go off" when he feels betrayed or cornered. That's not a good thing. I'll give you that.

Never a committee chair? Not so. At the very least, he was Commerce Committee chair.

So, if we buy into the notion that McCain is highly unpopular among the GOP Senators, why are we smearing him? Perhaps the best move would be to let it go -- let him get nominated and beat the pants off a guy who has no support within the Beltway. :shrug:

[TwilightGardener]

102. It is not a "smear" to believe he doesn't have a suitable temperament

for the Presidency, and to offer that as a reason to oppose him. Unfortunately, his history as a POW turns any question of his mental fitness, related or not, into a anti-Vietnam vet "smear" to some people. I sincerely hope our side can find a way to effectively and inoffensively magnify this little "problem" of his, because it does truly frighten me.

[Buzz Clik]

202. Understandably so.

[Virginia Dare]

109. His mental state is a big issue..

he obviously harbors a lot of uncontrollable hate and emotional instability over what happened to him, and I can't say that I blame him. He can't change what happened to him in the past. However, I do think all of this makes him unfit to be the commander in chief.

I wish people had more seriously psychoanalyzed bush before he got the white house.

[treestar]

265. Amen!

Even if one wants to argue he is justified, he is not fit to be President. Neither would anyone suffering from major post traumatic stress syndrome.

If he is not over it to the point where he can recognize that war is war, and both sides do awful things, then he's not ready to take on a major office.

[Hawkowl]

166. Do you want to win?

Yeah, just because he uses a racial slur, he's not a racist. Naaaah. It's not like he means all gooks are bad people. I mean, probably some of his best friends are gooks...er, uh Asians, Chinese, or errr, oriental.

Are you out of your effing mind? You have a picture of Obama as your avatar and you are a apologist for a bigot? So you are o.k. if some calls a group of people "niggers" or "spics" or "kykes" as long as they don't call everyone that name? Especially your candidate?

YOU SIR, APPARENTLY HAVE NOT EXPERIENCED RACISM AND MISS THE CONCEPT ENTIRELY.

You are precisely the type of person, that is part of the problem because you are not part of the solution. And putting a picture of Obama as your avatar doesn't help.

"INJUSTICE ANYWHERE, IS A THREAT TO JUSTICE EVERYWHERE"....MLK


What friggin part of this don't you understand?

[Buzz Clik]

199. I will not repeat this again. On this subthread and throughout the thread, it is explained.

Please read it.

[Hawkowl]

272. Your excuses explain nothing

What gives YOU the right to exuse rascism in any way shape or form? Your apologies for a warmongering bigot is the last thng the democratic party needs right noow. This board is supposed to support dem candidates not apologize for Republicans or persuade people that it is o.k. to vote for them.

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

207. "But, a political opponent is suddenly an intolerant racist bastard who is unfit to lead for doing

exactly the same thing" Should not our leaders rise above that and be model citizens? Most of us can.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

136. A mile in his shoes?

"that's normal. What's not normal is using an ethnic slur" -- When you've been tortured for seven years come back and let us know... sadly were not all tat far from finding out B(

"he deliberately chose a slur that covers all of Southeast Asia."

FYI my wife (who is Korean) might disagree that such a slur is only about SE Asians, her people where the original g*%ks which is, of course, short for HanGook or 'Korean'.

[TwilightGardener]

142. OK, ALL of Asia, same point. See post 137--it's never OK to use racial slurs, not

when you're a public figure, especially not one who wants to represent our country to the world. Never. Doesn't matter what you've been through. You can think it all you want, you can say it among family and friends if it alleviates some of your pain or bitterness, but he went public with this statement DURING A PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN. That says it all.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

149. Nobody has said its ok

What people have sid is

1) Its understandable and unless youve been tortured you (or I) dont know

and

2) Its not necessarily a sign of underlying racism, like I said if I was tortured by say militia in Asia I might years later drop the G-Bomb... I hope I would not its a shameful word I wish we could eradicate but when (hopefully never) I have been tortured and broken for seven years Ill let you know..

[TwilightGardener]

156. I think we all understand that it's understandable. It also means that

his willingness to use such language to describe his feelings means that he is unfit for President. He allows his emotions too much sway--it's that simple.

[Buzz Clik]

204. Clearly, we have come to the point of understanding each other's postion. We simply disagree.

And that's ok.

[Virginia Dare]

225. Sure it is..

nothing wrong with having a little civil discourse, we're all on the same side, most of us...:hi:

[lumpy]

244. Side note- I first heard the word 'gook' 69 years ago in

Alaska. The word was used in reference to an Eskimo boy who had entered our school. I knew then what an ethnic slur was all about. Some slurs never die.

[geardaddy]

245. It also refers to Koreans

It was coined during the Korean war because of the Korean word for country "guk"

[tuckessee]

288. "Gook" is older than the Korean War.

I've seen contemporary WW2 lit using the term in reference to Japanese.

No one is sure from where the term originated but it was common among China Marines in the 20's & 30's. They may have inherited the term from the Phillipines.

General definition meant "small, strange, funny, foreign".

[leftofthedial]

107. he says he referred only to his prison guards, BUT

"gooks" is like saying "niggers" or "spics"

the word is a racial epithet, not limited to his guards

[La Lioness Priyanka]

15. its racist. hating one man isnt racist. therein lies the difference

[Buzz Clik]

59. The term "gooks" is racist for sure. My single point is this:

McCain using a racist slur directed toward the specific, narrow group of people who caged him and tortured him is understandable but still unacceptable. However, that isolated hole in his character is hardly reason enough to disqualify him from being suited for the office of president.

On the other hand, his policies and history of supporting the war in Iraq are relevant and enough to convince me that I would not vote for him.

I'm sorry, but I don't buy into the general hysteria sweeping this place. We seem to be missing major, critical issues. Instead, we've replaced them with gut-level reactions.

[lumberjack_jeff]

74. Uh, yeah it is. n/t

[Buzz Clik]

80. Perfect. We agree on all points. n/t

[Virginia Dare]

111. So it would be okay for a candidate to use the "N" word..

as long as they were talking about some group of thugs that robbed and terrorized them?

Not buying it.

[SteelPenguin]

115. Yeah exactly

There's a weird allowance in this country for racist language as long as you're not using the N-word.

It IS a big deal because the kind of person who would say what he said, thinks in a certain way, and I don't think that way is one which should be leading our country.

Saying that it's ok for him to use racist perjorative language because he was tortured for 6 years doesn't cut it, imho. Someone who is going to be our President, at the very least, needs to have a better control of his language and an understanding of when to use what words.

[TwilightGardener]

117. What about "sand ni--ers"? Is that OK? Because we're at war, right?

I'm not buying it either. He should have enough personal restraint to avoid offending an entire race, but he doesn't. Unfit for the highest office.

[Buzz Clik]

125. Why are you twisting this around?

No one says it's okay for McCain to use racist words, but it is understandable considering his past.

And, yes -- if I were robbed at gunpoint, pistol whipped and beaten, I'd hope that people would understand if I went off on my assailants and used inappropriate language to describe them.

[Virginia Dare]

131. I think it's ironic that an Obama supporter would defend this..

how is it twisting things around? Is it acceptable for a Presidential candidate to be on the record for using a racist slur or not?

[Buzz Clik]

177. How many times in one thread is it necessary for me to answer this?

The number of your posts on this threads indicates that you've read a substantial part of it. Have I one time said that his comment was acceptable?

[Virginia Dare]

181. You indicated that it shouldn't preclude him being President..

I would read "acceptance" into that. Perhaps I do misunderstand you, if I do I sincerely apologize.

[Buzz Clik]

185. Yes, you misunderstand my point entirely.

George Wallace, it seems to me, was an incredible racist. He never should have been considered a viable presidential candidate.

Robert Byrd is a former KKK member. That bugs me a lot. Trent Lott got hung out to dry over his comment about Strom Thurmond's policies that were interpreted as endorsing Strom's racist past. Lott is convinced he was railroaded; I'm not sure, but he certainly was dancing along the edge of acceptable comments.

John McCain's "gook" comment was unacceptable. He used a horrible word that is deemed derogatory to millions of people. Ordinarily, I consider that comment to epitomize the garden variety knuckledragging racist. In McCain's case, the comment makes me cringe, but I can't pretend to understand what he's gone through, so I forgive him. I don't accept the comment, but I forgive him because of what was done to him.

[Virginia Dare]

191. A racist is a racist..

to me it's never forgiveable. IF he's truly open-minded, then as a public figure he needs to come to terms with that. What happened to him had nothing to do with the race of people, so why use that expression? He could have easily substituted the word "assholes" and his point would have come across just fine.

Hey, I like debating with you Buzzclik, you know that!!...:hi:

[Buzz Clik]

201. We clearly have come to an irreconcilable point. I can live with that.

We'll just have to move on.

Hell, it's not like I'll be voting for McCain.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

140. Let alone if it happened every day for seven years..

[Virginia Dare]

144. Then he's got unresolved anger issues...

which is certainly understandable, but he needs to retire from public life and get them resolved. He's got the money to do it. He shouldn't die an angry and bitter man.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

152. I dont disagree

I just dont think calls for his head because he is a biggot are called for. Using offensive language at people who tortured you is *not* uncommon even if there is allot of collateral damage

[Virginia Dare]

157. Not uncommon unless you're a U.S. Senator..

running for President. Poppy Bush was shot down by the Japanese, and JFK was blown into the water, but I don't remember either of them going on record with ethnic slurs. Perhaps somebody will correct me on that.

There's no question it's understandable for him to harbor strong feelings about what happened to him, but I don't think anybody is calling for his head, they're just questioning his fitness for office. I think it's a valid point.

[TwilightGardener]

159. There were/are Vietnam Vets in Congress--some who were wounded and lost limbs--

haven't heard them use "gooks" either during their time in office.

[Thothmes]

268. Neither of them were long term guests of Hirohito.

I suspect if you hung around the wardroom of the Carrier that Bush flew from, or around the advance maintenace base for the PT boats you probably would have heard the term gook, nip, jap used by these men and many many others. Warfare has a way of reducing men the lowest common denominator. I had an occassion to meet a high level official in the Hong Kong police department. This British gentleman was one of the Police bureaus Chief Inspectors.
The only term I ever heard him use for the Japanes was "slant eyed yellow bastards". Iw told by one of the other Chief Inspectors said that the man had spent to 2 years in Changai prison, then 18 months in Thailand helping to build the Thai/Burma rail road for the Japanese. I have also met a couple of men that were prisoners of the Japanese in the Phillipines. Thought the war had ended over 40 years ago still carried a deep hatred of the Japanese.
I would like to say that I could be above that, but if I had the experience that these men had, I doubt that I would.

[EFerrari]

172. In public and to the press? That's out of control.

And, you know, he could have used different language that didn't tar a whole people. That's also out of control.

Maybe he has good reason to be out of control. But there is no rationale for being out of control and running for the presidency at the same time.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

139. Nobody is saying its ok

What people are saying is it *understandable* and does not mean he is a racist. It means he has poor control of the old yapper and was slamming the men who made it their job for more than half a dozen years to torture the man..

[Virginia Dare]

141. It could mean either...

or both. We really don't know why he used that term. That's what's troubling.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

138. TY!

[BobbyVan]

26. This is what the Bush/Cheney torture policies will do to people...

They permanently scar people and turn them into hateful racists.

We shouldn't attack McCain directly when he says these things. Instead, we should offer our sympathy and say that torture is so bad that it's scarred him for life, made him seriously unwell, turned him into a racist, and made him unfit to hold higher office.

Let's use McCain as an "Exhibit A" of why our government's policy of torture is inhuman and wrong.

[Buzz Clik]

69. Holy shit. A rational comment. Pardon me while a breathe into a paper sack.

:yourock:

[StarryNite]

89. Excellent point!

:yourock:

[lonestarnot]

103. Has already done to people.

[coalition_unwilling]

203. Well put. Thank you -n/t

[architect359]

250. Nicely done! Thank you!

:applause: :yourock:

[Winterblues]

43. Also he broke down and did all they wanted him to do..

I think he hates himself even more...

[lumberjack_jeff]

71. But I've never heard anyone here say anything similar about "crackers"...

based on their (arguably justified) hatred of GWB.

You're defending the indefensible using a non-sequitur.

[Buzz Clik]

79. Crackers? And you accuse me of a non-sequitur?

My point about Bush is not that he is a race or represents a race, but that we've seen first hand people develop rage and hate toward someone. McCain was subjected to unthinkable acts that were sponsored, sanctioned, and approved by the government of North Vietnam. The term "gook" during that time was meant specifically to insult the enemy, not all humans from "Asia".

Am I defending his use of a racial slur? Not at all. I simply understand it and refuse to label him as "unfit" for such a comment.

[coalition_unwilling]

208. You are almost totally wrong about the denotation and connotations of "gook". Perhaps when

first used by U.S. forces after 1965, it was used to designate Viet Cong and NVA forces. But, over time, as the U.S. occupation continued, "gook" came to be used more widely by U.S. forces to refer to anyone of Vietnamese descent and, even more largely, anyone of southeast Asian or even Asian descent. You can actually see video clips where the word is used not to refer to the "enemy" but to Vietnamese civilians in "Vietnam: A Television History" which is available in DVD.

[Igel]

251. Except it wasn't first used by US Forces after 1965.

It was *the* word for referring to Koreans, typically N. Koreans, in the Korean war. And it probably spread to Vietnamese before 1965. Just a handy Asian-enemy specific term of abuse.

It also popped up sporadically before that, usually referring to Filipinos, and might have been a corrupted form of 'gugu', a Tagalog word. Originally referring to adversaries, but then extended to non-adversaries.

And apparently it popped up during the LA riots (swap out "riots" for "uprising", "disturbance," or whatever other euphemism you prefer) as well, again applied to Koreans.

Semantic change (in this case, spread) is hard to stop--but that doesn't mean there aren't still two different usages and meanings to a single word, and that words can only have the One True Meaning (invariably defined by somebody other than the word user).

[JerseygirlCT]

219. There's the problem right there

"THEY" didn't. Some of them, individuals working for a particular government at the time, did that. Extrapolating that to all Vietnamese is just wrong.

[treestar]

259. That's a group condemnation

Which is never justified. Why hate the whole race for what a few did?

Whereas, Dubya is an individual who has individually earned his opprobrium by his particular acts.

By your logic, all Iraqis are entitled to hate us all, because of the offenses at Abu Ghraib, just because we are American, and whether we were against that or not.

[my2sense]

3. Agreed

It's amazing that he is actually a front runner on the rep. side. Amazing the MSM is not reporting on his past meltdowns and bomb iran songs....

[TwilightGardener]

5. This quote isn't from 1978. It's from after 2000. Even if he felt this way, he should

have had enough self-control not to say so. The man just ain't right in the head.

[izquierdista]

20. Remember the slogan from '64

"In your guts, you know he's nuts."

It fits this time too.

[Bluebear]

24. "In your guts, you know he's nuts."

:rofl: and true!

[TwilightGardener]

25. Yep. He deliberately chose the word "gooks" too. Just in case his

his statement didn't contain enough obvious venom.

[coalition_unwilling]

211. Believe you're alluding to Goldwater's official slogan: "In your heart you know he's right" which

certain wits on the left turned into "In your heart you know he's far right."

[tridim]

60. He should have said, "I hated my captors, but I forgive their children"

He didn't say that because he doesn't believe it, instead he said he hates an entire race of people.

[MADem]

6. Do you have a date to go with that quote? Was that before or after his trip to Vietnam?

It doesn't do any good to not be totally forthcoming about his statements and their context.

He may not be fit, but it's not unreasonable to harbor resentment against people who tortured one brutally for years, and left one in constant pain for the remainder of one's days.

[DS1]

13. Feb 18 2000

this is making its rounds, I was wondering when it would show on DU


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2000/02/18/MN32194.DTL&type=printable

[MADem]

37. Making the rounds? It's taken EIGHT years to so do? What, is it a constipated tale?

There are more obvious ways to target McCain. And eight years ago, he clarified his meaning. Some people may not "buy" his rationale, but it's disingenuous to suggest that this is a "new" revelation.

His 'base' isn't people who would 'angst' over this story, frankly.

McCain made no apologies yesterday.

``I was referring to my prison guards,'' McCain said, ``and I will continue to refer to them in language that might offend some people because of the beating and torture of my friends.''

McCain made it clear that his anger extends only toward his captors. As a senator, he was one of the leaders of the postwar effort to normalize U.S. relations with Vietnam.

Campaign officials do not expect the controversy to hurt McCain, either in tomorrow's South Carolina primary or later in the campaign.

``If people understood the context, they wouldn't be upset,'' Mike Murphy, a senior adviser to the campaign, said last night.

But the racial slur used by the senator has a long, painful history that is felt by many Asian Americans.

The word ``gook'' was first used in 1899 by American soldiers fighting Filipino insurgents. During the Korean War, the term was aimed at Koreans and Chinese. It was directed at the Vietnamese when Americans were fighting in Vietnam. It is now used as a slur toward any Asian or Pacific Islander. ...

[DS1]

42. No

It's making its rounds in the blogosphere. Don't blame me.

[MADem]

68. Gotta wonder who's doing it--ROMNEY, perhaps?

Why should we get involved in GOP primary catfighting?

[Virginia Dare]

112. Why not?

there's too much at stake to leave the gloves on. If he said it, he said it. It's worth commenting on.

[TwilightGardener]

44. Considering that he thinks we should have stayed in Vietnam and

"finished the job", as it were, I'm not sure anybody's going to buy that explanation. I sure don't. I'm pretty sure he hates them, not just for what they did to him, but because they defeated us, in his mind.

[MADem]

Well, he's not targeting the liberal left with his campaign. The people

who support him surely are well aware of this story, and they "buy" it just fine. I remember it from way back when, but when I saw this thread I was at first under the mistaken belief that he said it RECENTLY. AGAIN.

It's as lame as shopping a story saying CLINTON GOT A BLOW JOB! Or OBAMA INVOLVED IN SUSPECT LAND DEAL!!!

As I queried elsewhere, are the Romney-ites shopping this around to try to 'cut' McCain? It won't work--it will remind those chickenhawks who LOVE the military that McCain served, and Romney did not.

[TwilightGardener]

92. I understand that you dislike Romney and admire McCain, but it doesn't

change the fact that this sort of seething anger and the willingness to use racial slurs makes him unsuitable for President. This is not a "smear" by Romney or anyone else, it's a quote by him, and it certainly illustrates that he's not mentally fit for the job.

[MADem]

99. Where do you divine that from what I have said? I haven't said Word One

about my "feelings" as to candidate McCain.

Why is it, I wonder, that it is impossible to discuss a matter without someone stepping up and telling people how they "feel?"


It gets tiresome as hell.

NO, I do not "admire" McCain. When he was working at OLA he was the biggest shithead to ever run that place. He yelled at all the workers except for the women he was screwing. He put morale in the toilet while he was assigned there, he excelled at the Blame Game, and there was dancing in the street when he moved on. There are a few old souls who up on the Hill were youngsters back then who remember what he was like.

However, everything isn't "personal" with me. I can stand back and look at the big picture and see how people will 'take' an event, something that some people at DU seem incapable of doing. This "OOOOH, McCain called someone a GOOK!!! Stop the PRESSES!" nonsense is just that--nonsense. It was probably dug up and smeared around by some clumsy Romney operatives who are DESPERATE to stop McCain from sashaying to the GOP nomination.

Try reading what I actually write, and please don't ascribe "feelings" without evidence.

[TwilightGardener]

106. That's the sense I got from your posts--sorry if I was mistaken. I am a military

wife, and I generally tend to give those who served the benefit of the doubt, and I did so with McCain in 2000--but his willingness to use a racial slur, as a long-time United States Senator and a candidate for President who realizes his every word is being recorded, is alarming to me. It makes him unfit, because it shows that he allows his emotions and personal venom to override his caution and his good sense. He WANTED us to hear it--and that, combined with his willingness to demonize anyone who opposes our occupation of Iraq, both here and abroad, as our "enemies", and to make jokes about IED's and bombing another country, makes him a truly frightening character in terms of having the military at his disposal.

[coalition_unwilling]

214. Well put. Thank you -n/t

[central scrutinizer]

77. I've posted this link on DU for years -

whenever someone on DU says something positive about McCain - it is from March 2, 2000

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/hongop.shtml

On his campaign bus recently, Sen. John McCain told reporters, "I hated the gooks. I will hate them as long as I live." Although McCain said he was referring only to his prison guards, there are many reasons why his use of the word "gook" is offensive and alarming.

It is offensive because by using a racial epithet that has historically been used to demean all Asians to describe his captors, McCain failed to make a distinction between his torturers and an entire racial group.

It is alarming because a major candidate for president publicly used a racial epithet, refused to apologize for doing so and remains a legitimate contender.

Contrary to McCain's attempt to narrowly define "gook" to mean only his "sadistic" captors, this term has historically been used to describe all Asians. McCain said that "gook" was the most "polite" term he could find to describe his captors, but because it is simply a pejorative term for Asians, he insulted his captors simply by calling them "Asians" -- a clearly disturbing message. To the Asian American community, the term is akin to the racist word "nigger." A friend of mine, a white male Vietnam veteran, pointed out that veterans, especially Vietnam veterans, know how spiteful the term "gook" is. It has everything to do with labeling someone as "other," the enemy and yellow. McCain sent the message that all Asians are foreigners and remain forever the "other" and the enemy.

[izquierdista]

47. Ask Nelson Mandela the same question

I doubt he would be as vulgar as McCain.

[MADem]

66. Why would I want to ask Nelson Mandela the question? He probably wouldn't be as vulgar as McCain.

He's not running for office, either. And he wasn't imprisoned in a North Vietnamese prison camp, now, was he?

Nelson was imprisioned and brutalized for a very long time. McCain was imprisoned for a shorter time, but he endured intese torture, to include being hung by his arms, which is why they're fucked up.

Did you bother to actually READ what I wrote? I don't think you did.

I am not endorsing the man for office, and you seem to be spoiling for a fight as though I'm one of his Pioneer Donors or something.

:eyes:

[Virginia Dare]

116. I think it's a valid comparison..

Mandela is an obviously great, understanding and forgiving man in that he harbors little bitterness or hate. McCain, not so much.

[NOLALady]

124. I agree it's a valid comparison.

Mandela was imprisoned for a much longer time. I cannot believe he didn't suffer intense torture from brutal captors.
Yet, he tried to unite the people rather than express hatred towards the white race.

Hardship can bring out the best in some, the worst in others.

[MADem]

254. Mandela isn't an American citizen who was imprisoned as a consequence of fighting in a war

in Southeast Asia, though. He was imprisoned for fighting against a racist, separatist government in his own land.

It's not really the same.

The only similarity is "prison."

[newmajority]

148. I remember hearing McCain say that comment on a television interview

It was on a news show, possibly 60 minutes, because mentally I'm picturing Ed Bradley talking to him. I don't remember the subject ever being raised again, so I figured the media gave him a "pass" on the comment because McCain was a POW in Vietnam and used the word in that context, as opposed to using it as a term for any Asian or even any Vietnamese person. I'm not justifying the use of the word, but one thing that happens in war is dehumanization of the enemy. Especially if they're torturing you. Hell, just imagine the names the Iraqis have probably made up. :(

[mike_c]

7. agreed-- the most charitable thing to say is that his experiences...

...damaged him for life. Completely understandable, and an expected response to the difficulties he lived through, but that doesn't mitigate the fact that he was damaged. Anyone who hates all his life IS unfit to be president. There's no shame in that.

[Mountainman]

8. I don't like McCain but this is so friking lame. I said the very same thing years after I returned

home from Vietnam. I don't hate anyone now. I'm not the same person who hated back then.

When will DUers say something meaningful about the campaigns? The site is so worthless when it comes to getting decent information on candidates. It's worse than the MSM!

[Bluebear]

10. Then leave. He said this in 2000, not when he came home from Vietnam.

[Mountainman]

56. America, love it or leave it.

[TwilightGardener]

17. Someone running for President shouldn't be this way--he shouldn't be

in command of our nukes with this kind of unabated rage inside of him. He barely controls it as it is--face it, the guy's fucked up. That's OK and understandable, and we can be sympathetic, but make him President? Er, no.

[ret5hd]

18. Would you claim to be fit for the office of president at that time?

[Clarkansas]

19. I am genuinely curious

and not trying to pick a fight. McCain said this in 2000. Does that make it any different to you?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

36. sorrry but as a public servant he as a far bigger obligation to not be a crazy racist. nt

[Bluebear]

38. Stop! We're "worse than the MSM"!

:silly:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

41. we criticize racism. how dare we?

[Mountainman]

53. You prove my point.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

57. how so?

[Mountainman]

75. Those words by McCain don't amount to shit when compared to what we may be up against if he wins.

We need to know what he is really about. This discussion is a waste of time in that vein. Compare and contrast him to Obama or Clinton and be truthful about it.

We need to get the facts out there about what the country would be like if any one of those three were president.

I'm trying to make up my mind who to vote for in Feb 5 and I find DU a poor source of real information on the candidates.

We even had to make a special place to put the discussions of the candidates because they are so lame most of us don't want to be bothered with them and this discussion about McCain is just like them.

IMHO the level of intelligence of the debate about the candidates at DU is grade school. I have to go to other sites to get real information. That is so sad. My profile doesn't show it but I have been here since right after the 2000 election. I changed my name when I moved to the mountains. DU use to be a good source of information during election time but this year is so different.

[Virginia Dare]

126. I think this is very illustrative of what he is really about..

I'm curious why you don't think so?

[Mountainman]

145. If he were just some full time civilian who never was a POW I'd agree with you.

You need to understand what he went through in Vietnam. Did you ever wonder why his shoulders are so out of shape? They tied his arms behind him then pulled them up until both his shoulders came out of their sockets.

Now it takes a hell of a lot to forgive that. Maybe McCain doesn't have it in him maybe he should but his is a completely different set of circumstances then if you or I call an Asian a gook, and I have before and hated them and gotten over it. I cut McCain some slack here. He did not make racist remarks about other races I think.

My main point is that this immaterial when it comes to the things we should be concerned with like how to end the war and health care for all and the economy.

[Virginia Dare]

146. Don't look to republicans for any of that...

but as we found out in 2004, these are the types of issues that will come to the forefront, and this is how people will ultimately make their decision about who to vote for. Did most people really give a shit about John Kerry's healthcare plan? No, all they talked about was what happened in Vietnam. I wish it weren't so.

[TwilightGardener]

147. Nobody's asking him to forgive. Nobody is condemning the man for his

personal feelings--we understand. What we are saying is that he CAN'T FUCKING CONTROL HIMSELF, AND HIS WORDS, AND HIS EMOTIONS--even during a Presidential campaign, when he knows everyone is analyzing his every utterance. When he finally GETS the job, and doesn't have to worry about auditioning or campaigning or being careful, just how much is he going to fucking restrain himself and control his impulses THEN?

[Mountainman]

158. I get that message. I heard that he has problems with anger.

That message didn't come to me in this thread until you brought it up. I understand what you are saying. I don't support the man and would never vote for him.

[goodgd_yall]

282. I agree that this is the main problem with what he said

It's understandable for someone to use a derogatory word to describe someone under who you suffered a great deal. But that he is so impulsive, apparently, to not be able to control his language when he knows (or should know) that it's not the way for a person in his position to speak is a sign of something not quite right.

[goodgd_yall]

284. I agree with you

That he used the term, to me, is forgiveable under the circumstances. I somehow do not believe he hates all Vietnamese. It was directed to his captors. But the problem is that he needs to not be saying such things. The inability to have control over his speech is not a good sign.

[coalition_unwilling]

220. That's interesting. One your earlier posts said "America, love it or leave it." Wow, talk

about a sense of deja entendu. I'd say your statement definitely qualifies as "grade school". Definitely brings back memories of the targeting of dissent during Vietnam.

[goodgd_yall]

283. I think he was mocking the post that he replied to.

[Buzz Clik]

88. I'm sorry, but I can't let you get away with this.

I really like 99% of your posts, but this is bullshit. He strongly dislikes a single group of people (he doesn't hate the entire "Asian" race -- whatever the hell that is) because they tortured him. Although I can't condone the use of the word, I am not willing to label him a crazy racist for doing so.

[lumberjack_jeff]

101. Then someone ought to ask him exactly what "gook" means. n/t

[Virginia Dare]

128. Why do you think he used a racist slur then?

either he's crazed with irrational hate and it just popped out, or he deliberately used it to smear the race that imprisoned him. Which do you think it is?

[kestrel91316]

52. If you don't like DU you are free to go elsewhere. Why don't you check out

Rush Limpball's site?

[Buzz Clik]

83. He's not allowed to criticize hideous behavior by the posters at DU?

When did that happen?

[Virginia Dare]

129. Posting a racist slur made by John McCain is hideous behavior?

how so?

[Bluebear]

215. Nice, *I* am the hideous one all of a sudden.

[Buzz Clik]

82. Excellent post.

:thumbsup:

[Virginia Dare]

118. You're not a public figure, and you're not running for President..

you're not going to have to go out and represent our country to other nations (these are all assumptions on my part). I think it's understandable that he felt this way, it's not understandable that he would have verbalized these comments, as a U.S. Senator. It shows he's volatile, indiscreet and probably incapable of being objective about certain things. We've had 7 going on 8 years of that shit, we don't need anymore.

[sabbat hunter]

9. can you link me to that

I would love to put it up on other political boards.

[Bluebear]

11. With pleasure.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/hongop.shtml

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2000/02/18/MN32194.DTL&type=printable

[Oceansaway]

12. perhaps this is McCains ' macaca '

moment...wouldnt that be great !!...repeated over & over in MSM
like when Anal Allen slipped.....toooo funny !

[SteelPenguin]

16. What would be the reaction if....

...instead of Vietnam, he had been imprisoned and tortured in a war in, say...the Congo.

And instead of that statement on his campaign bus, he had said "I hated the niggers. I will hate them as long as I live."

Then tried to backpeddle by saying he was only referring to his captors, but refusing to apologize for using the n-word.

How would be media be treating him now? Still as a front runner?

[Bluebear]

22. Indeed.

[IronLionZion]

108. Exactly. It could have also been Jews or Hispanics or anyone else

and it would be instantly clear that there is a problem. But since it is Vietnamese, then it's only his captors. :wtf:

[BuyingThyme]

162. Exactly.

[snooper2]

21. Bomb bomb bomb, Bomb Bomb Iran

Bomb Bomb Bomb, Bomb Bomb Iran....Bomb iRAAANN...I think I CAN.....I REALLY CAN....

[EFerrari]

23. He isn't fit.

There's something wrong with this person. When you compare this statement to his blank expression, the rift becomes obvious.

[TwilightGardener]

28. Agree--the incongruity of his words and his expressions (smiling at

inappropriate times, other times flat affect/flat voice) sends little chills up my spine.

[Bluebear]

31. Not to mention >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

[TwilightGardener]

39. Uh-huh. You know, deep down, he hates Chimpy--but he's so desperate

for power, he'll actually HUG the guy in public. And people mock Obama and Hillary for not being chummy with each other--why should they be, as long as they're civil? It's sure more emotionally honest than this little sickening display.

[EFerrari]

40. You'd pretty much have to dissociate to do that.

And look at the people behind them -- smiling and clapping!

This photo is evidence that George Bush could eat babies on television and no one would do a thing about it. We're a nation of onlookers.

[opihimoimoi]

35. Its the Pub Party and their philosophy of selfishness/ greed/ myopia that defines

MacaCain is a member of a Party that fucked America...HELLO?????

[EFerrari]

48. It's more than that, though. There are competent Republicans

who would probably do all right in a crisis. They're vampires but they could still manage.

I don't believe John McCain would do all right in a crisis.

[Hawkowl]

27. We NEED these quotes

We all need to find these quotes, and video clips of McCain and circulate them relentlessly.
My favorite is when McCain breaks into the old Beach Boys song: "Bomb, bomb, bomb Iran".
This is the only way we are going to be be able to defeat this corporate lap dog. Reveal him for the psychotic hate monger that he is.

The MSM will not talk about his outbursts or flaws. The internet is our only defense. I'm convinced it is our only defense against the defense contractor owned media.

[CoffeeCat]

29. There's no way that McCain could have...

emerged from 5 years of torture and imprisonment--without severe PTSD.

I'm going to play armchair shrink and say that---when you have PTSD, you
either get help and process the trauma, or you continue to play out
the trauma, as it loops and loops and loops in your head.

McCain's hell-bent warmongering--insisting that we'll be in Iraq "for 100
more years" and his latest pronouncement of more and more and more war--
demonstrates to me that this man is still fighting wars in his own head.

He did not heal his own wounds.

A child who was abused, will either heal and break from the pain. Or,
the pain remains and the child grows into an adult who is still experiencing
the trauma. Abusers often become abusers--because they desperately need
to feel powerful and in control--because the part of them that was abused
never healed and needs power and control to feel stable.

McCain is like that unhealed child. The scary thing is...he has access
to war. He's got unhealed war issues, and he can start more wars and
and attempt to gain power and control--in actual war scenarios.

McCain's war loop is still playing.

If everyone thought Bush was scary, strap yourselves in, because McCain
appears to have very serious unresolved trauma specifically related to war, and
he's all ready divulged his intention to catapult us into more wars.

That's telling. Really revealing.

Truly, scary stuff.

[TexasObserver]

30. "This intemperate, hotheaded man is not fit to be President ...."

Co-sign.

[Bluebear]

32. And welcome to DU

[EFerrari]

33. Welcome to DU, TexasObserver.

:)

[TwilightGardener]

34. One incident with McCain cemented for me that he was nutz--

it was when a few Code Pinkers disrupted him, and he took such obvious pleasure in denouncing and ridiculing them, as if they were the "enemy" instead of ordinary Americans who wanted peace--the snarly smile on his face as he said "We beat you yesterday, we'll beat you today, we'll beat you tomorrow!!" really made my gut clench.

[gordianot]

45. McCain was tortured, we also torture, how many McCain's have we created?

[BobbyVan]

62. The man should be institutionalized

Whoever our nominee is, he or she should look over at McCain during the debates and say: "It's clear to me that you have suffered a great deal, and that you are not well. Torture is an abominable policy, and your explosive temper, racist statements and belligerent policies prove this fact. I urge you to suspend your campaign and seek psychological care, for the sake of yourself, the family and the country."

Then, when McCain has a flashback and freaks out on stage, it will just prove that Obama or Clinton was right to say that.

[OneBlueSky]

51. "This intemperate, hotheaded man is not fit to be President of the United States." . . .

didn't stop them from installing Bush as president -- and it won't stop them from replacing him with McCain . . .

[lurky]

54. Well, there goes the Asian vote.

That's 12.4% of California and 7% of New York. And I think a lot of Asian voters might have otherwise been sympathetic to moderate Republicanism (low taxes, etc). In a tight race, this could lose him the two largest states.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

55. The "gooks" have a lot more to forgive than John ever will.

Like 3 million dead due to our earlier attempt to "protect our vital national interests".

[tuckessee]

95. That's a point the average DU'er will choose to ignore. n/t

[cobalt1999]

63. I won't bash the man for his reaction.

If I went through what he did, who knows how I'd feel even 30 years later. I'll cut him some slack on his statement as a person, HOWEVER, someone still that traumatized should not be president.

[Lex]

72. that's how I feel

just about exactly

[Snarkturian Clone]

78. ditto NT

[Ilsa]

267. I'm in agreement with you.

If he is still feeling this way, then maybe he needs to be doing something else. I'm going to cut him plenty of slack on this as a person, but it is an opinion he should have kept to himself and his closest friends. Sometimes McCain runs his mouth, and I am hoping for more if it as it could ruin his chances.

[MindPilot]

76. I used to call them that and much worse. But that war is over.

Unfortunately there are vets who never came home and they are usually the ones who make a big deal about being a vet. I can only imagine the rage, agony and torment they have to suppress day in and day out.

I guess in DU-land anyone with combat-related PTSD is to be scorned and ridiculed, barely fit to stand on the freeway off-ramp with a sign. Or is that just reserved for vets with the wrong political views?

[EFerrari]

91. His behavior is inappropriate and offensive, no matter the cause.

If it's combat related PTSD, he needs treatment, not the office of the president.

[MindPilot]

105. What other jobs is someone with PTSD unqualified for?

And what other disabilities disqualify someone for the job of president? Is there a list someplace?

[EFerrari]

110. I understand your position, MindPilot and in general, it's mine, too.

But really, are you comfortable with a U.S. Senator using racial epithets in public discourse? If the man made a mistake, he could have owned it. If he was upset, he could have owned that. Normalizing this behavior isn't good for anyone, not even him.

If he can't manage his mouth or own his mistakes, public speaking would seem to be the wrong career path.

[MindPilot]

252. I don't think the guy should be the President--but he's paid his dues

I figure 5 years as a POW buys him the right to say pretty much whatever the fuck he wants.

[TwilightGardener]

113. Are you shitting us? We're going to give this guy an entire nuclear arsenal

and the most powerful military on earth at his disposal, with his obvious mental/emotional problems combined with his obvious lust for war? It's like giving a teenager with a history of reckless behavior a shiny new Corvette. Yes, it might be unfair, but he is disqualified--he has shown that he is unable or unwilling to keep his hostility under control. Come on. It's not slandering all vets, or all PTSD sufferers, to say that the most stressful job on earth is probably not a good idea for someone who appears to have not come to terms with his experiences.

[Iwasthere]

86. I agree 100% ... remember the "Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran" Incedent

Also, I suspect that it is isn't just Vietnam. Betcha if you ask his family you would find he berates many

[IronLionZion]

87. What sickens me are the Asians that support him, like my own mom.

It's disgusting. There's no talking sense to her. If I say anything about him she asks if I saw it on the Internet. As if that discredits it.

[Buzz Clik]

94. "Asians". That's pretty damned broad. You think McCain was referring to all "Asians"?

I know for certain he wasn't even referring to all Vietnamese.

[IronLionZion]

104. You know for certain what he was thinking

but I know for certain what he said and who it offended. My girlfriend is southeast Asian (Hmong) and has been called a "gook" before by stupid racist assholes. It's an offensive racial slur.

If he had said niggers or kikes or spics or faggots or cunts or crackers, more people might see the problem. He would be condemned in a new york minute. But since this is DU, I am more likely to be condemned for mentioning these words in this post.

[Buzz Clik]

122. Where to begin?

1. Yes, I am certain he was referring to his North Vietnamese captors. Not Pakistanis, or Thais or other Asians. I'm real sure of that.
   
2. Your girlfriend has every right to be offended, and McCain should be taken to task for his use of the word.
   
3. Racism is not tolerated here at DU. Those misguided souls who engage in such behavior are banned, and rightly so.
   
4. On this thread, those supporting your position are in the vast majority.
   
5. Those disagreeing with you are not suggesting that the word isn't inflammatory or that McCain should be given a pass for having said it. Our point is merely that under the circumstances, his bitter feelings are understandable and probably limited (that is, he's not a total racist but his anger is very targeted). My problem with the OP is not that I'm a big fan of McCain but that declaring him unfit for office because of this comment is unreasonable.

[Chovexani]

127. You are trying to argue with an Obama apologist

Good luck with that. They seem to only get offended by slurs against THEIR group.

[TwilightGardener]

134. Hey now--I'm an Obama supporter who is NOT defending McCain. Don't try to generalize here.

[Virginia Dare]

120. Who cares if he was or wasn't..

it's hurtful and racist, and we don't need a man like this in the White House.

[NOLALady]

119. I'll never understand

why his "hatred" wasn't directed at those who sent him off to fight another unjust war.

[EFerrari]

121. And why he's so anxious to continue to send other young people

to endure what he endured.

[Norwood]

132. I'm no fan of McCain but I won't hold this statement against him

He was imprisoned and tortured by the North Vietnamese for years and years, he's allowed to be a little pissed off about it

[TwilightGardener]

137. If a black man mugged or raped me, would I be forever justified in using the N word? Would

everyone just assume that's a healthy and appropriate reaction, to condemn an entire race for the actions of individuals? And I'm not running for President, either.

[Midlodemocrat]

150. Excellent point.

:applause:

[EFerrari]

163. None of the guys that managed to live long enough to be released

from Gitmo seem to be using racial epithets when Amy Goodman interviews them.

They were in just about as long as McCain.

[TwilightGardener]

168. Yep--and as I pointed out, there are wounded war vets in Congress

who have managed to avoid using racial slurs as well. John McCain is either unwilling or unable to resist dropping verbal bombs for devastating effect--even against his own colleagues. Not a good trait for someone seeking the most high-profile job in the world, one in which proper language and diplomacy is crucial.

[Virginia Dare]

170. I just went back and re-read the quote..

the fact that he says he will hate them for as long as he lives is just chilling. Again, understandable perhaps, but it would be very scary to have somebody like that in the White House, somebody who openly lives with that kind of anger and hostility and has no intention of letting it go.

I also don't understand how somebody like him could express the desire to occupy another country for another 100 years. It seems he doesn't fully grasp the implications of it.

[TwilightGardener]

174. It IS chilling--he's nursing that hatred, rather than trying to come to terms with

it. His views on the Vietnam war, and now the Iraq war, are so totally dysfunctional and such an obvious matter of unresolved personal issues, that I am even more uneasy with him than I am with Cheney or Chimpy--hell, they're just in it for the money and oil.

[onenote]

198. you do realize that he pushed for normalization of relations with Vietnam

Yes, he carries a grudge against the specific people that tortured him. But not against the Vietnamese people or even the current government.

[TwilightGardener]

206. Yes--however, that doesn't excuse the fact that he sees nothing wrong

with using a racial slur to express his hatred. You can hate a particular individual, or even a group, without going racial, or at least not going public with going racial--he said this during a CAMPAIGN--he obviously didn't care, or maybe he even wanted to appeal to haters, as some here have suggested. Again, it's his obvious lack of self-control and his willingness to use some really nasty language that's offensive to a wider group, NOT his specific actions or feelings RE Vietnam and the Vietnamese people.

[Bluebear]

216. Well then he is not allowed to be President of Asian-Americans.

[Dukkha]

133. regardless of his past experience, it's conduct unbecoming of a senator

let alone a presidential candidate and makes him unfit for command. It shows his judgment is impaired and he still holds a personal grudge for his past incarceration. Just like a certain pResident who sought revenge for a dictator's assassination attempt on his poppy.

[Cleita]

135. I wonder how the Iraqi and Afghani John McCains of the future

are going to feel about Americans. You are right. McCain is not fit to be President but then neither is *, but still he is President. Painting a whole nation of people with one brush when it's their leaders who are at fault for what they did in the name of their people is plain wrong. A national and world leader needs to be above this kind of pettiness. I feel bad that McCain was treated so badly by his captors but it appears it has damaged him and he shouldn't be the leader of the world.

[Marrah_G]

143. You do realize what was done to him right? Do you think MAYBE his view of them is a bit different?

Sort of how many Iraqis prisoners feel after being tortured in Abu Ghraib? I'm sure plenty of them hate Americans and always will.

[TwilightGardener]

151. Oh Jesus--was McCain a POW? I never heard that!!

Goddamn, no one gets the fucking point that it's not his personal feelings that matter, it's his lack of control--of his words, his impulses, his emotions. He said something highly offensive and inappropriate--he could have chosen to use different language, but it was more important to him to make sure his statement showed as much bitterness and hostility as possible. Fucking scary, for a public figure who wants to be President.

[Marrah_G]

173. I don't particularly want the man as president either, But I'm not going to condemn the man for it

There are plenty of reasons to not want that man in office.

Most people would have similar reactions to his.

This is why the US should NEVER use torture.

[TwilightGardener]

175. Again, no one is condemning him for his feelings. I do condemn him for

intentionally using a slur, for not restraining himself, in describing those feelings. Big difference. That is but one reason why he would make a terrible, even dangerous, President.

[Marrah_G]

194. Okay I do agree with you on that.

[NOLALady]

184. It sounded like his message was for a certain group.

Code words.

It reminds me of the hostility towards the Japanese that wasn't directed at the Germans and people of Germanic descent in this country.

[EFerrari]

212. Now see, that's what I'm thinking, too.

Or at least, that is a possibility.

When you consider that the modern Republic party was shored up on bigotry, it makes sense.

[Virginia Dare]

226. Definitely...

after all these years, he can't NOT know what the implications are of using that word. Either he said it in a moment of unchecked candor, or he said it deliberately. Either way, it's troubling.

[EFerrari]

232. I do not buy that even afflicted people reach for the language of bigotry

for no reason.

[onenote]

190. please tell me you're not serious -- you didn't know he was a POW?

How could you follow politics and not know that?

[TwilightGardener]

209. Um, that was sarcasm.

[Virginia Dare]

229. Right, like it isn't thrown up in our faces..

a kajillion times a day that McCain is a "war hero". Just like Rudy was a "9/11 hero".

[bdamomma]

153. he holds grudges doesn't he???

[Virginia Dare]

160. not against the bush's though..

[onenote]

195. against the specific people that tortured him, yes.

Against the Vietnamese people as a whole, no.

[Virginia Dare]

218. Then why the racist slur?...n/t

[TwilightGardener]

224. Why use "gooks" instead of "captors" or "North Vietnamese"?

[onenote]

233. because that's what he and his fellow prisoners called them. I'm not saying its not offensive

But why do you think Vietnamese groups forgave him so quickly when he finally renounced using the term?

[TwilightGardener]

242. In 2000, he wasn't sitting in prison. He was a long-time US Senator.

He has a duty and an obligation to watch his language and to respect his constituents and other nationalities. Sorry, there may be understanding, but there's simply no excuse, and Vietnamese groups are obviously good, big-hearted people to forgive him. It doesn't minimize the fact that he wanted to say it. My Senator, Hagel, was wounded twice in Vietnam--still has shrapnel in his chest--never heard him use the term. Another Senator from Nebraska, Bob Kerrey, who lost his leg in Vietnam and thus carries the war with him every day, did not use the term while in office. No excuses for inappropriately hostile and offensive behavior as a public official, sorry--and the fact that some people here ARE trying to excuse it as a consequence of his war experiences proves the point that he can't control himself and needs apologizers.

[Virginia Dare]

248. Tom Lantos is a Holocaust survivor..

yet you would never hear him say I hate the Krauts for what they did to me and I always will.

There's just nothing that's appropriate or excusable about this statement coming out of the mouth of a U.S. Senator, much less a Presidential candidate.

[Castleman]

154. Wasn't that what....

Capt. Kirk said about the Klingons in Star Trek VI?

Just trying to lighten the debate up, jeeze...

McCain said it, and in 2000 the man had aspirations towards the Oval Office, if it comes back to bite him in the ass, too freaking bad.
Is he unfit for the Presidency because he made a racist comment?
No.
He's unfit for the presidency because he wants to overturn Roe v. Wade, etc, etc, etc AND he's a senile old doddering fool. However, the late night talk shows hosts will have a year and halfs worth of great monologues until McCain dies of extreme old age halfway through his term. "President McCain died at the age of 94 today..."

[KamaAina]

155. Why did the Governator of the state with the second-largest percentage of Asian residents

just endorse him, then?

(Hawai'i is, of course, Number One, and there's no way in hell we're voting repuke, anyway, especially if the Dem nominee is a local boy!)

[devilgrrl]

161. What's so heroic about getting your plane shot down and being held prisoner?

:popcorn:

BTW, Vietnam was a waste of lives and time.

Just like Iraq.

[onenote]

187. question: how many votes do you think a candidate would pick up (net)

if they went on national tv and declared that there is nothing heroic about getting shot down over enemy territory and being held prisoner for several years.

You might not think its heroic, but I daresay that your thinking isn't representative of the general public on this one.

[devilgrrl]

210. So you don't think he's deserving of the swiftboat treatment that Kerry got?

Well, I think he is.

:popcorn:

[Virginia Dare]

227. Or what about Max Cleland?

let us never forget what they did to him.

[onenote]

231. I don't forget. But if you think attacking McCain's heroism will work you're mistaken

Double standard. Of course. Swiftboating worked against Kerry and slurs against Max worked because they took liberal positions. In other words, swiftboating played into suspicions that some had about those individuals because their current positions on issues didn't fit into what was expected of a "war hero." McCain's positions on defense issues are exactly what people expect them to be (except maybe on torture). So explain to me how you effectively swiftboat him.

There are groups that have been trying to "swift boat" McCain for years, claiming that he sold out his fellow POWs, that he collaborated with the enemy, etc. And the reaction, for years, to such claims has been to dismiss them as nuts and to reinforce his hero/war prisoner "cred". And that's what will happen this time if anyone is foolish enough to try it again.

[Virginia Dare]

234. Rove was very successful at that in 2000

that is precisely what knocked McCain out of the race. I'm not advocating going after his status as a "war hero". All I'm saying is that his past actions or statements should not be off limits. This statement could definitely hurt him with Asian-Americans.

[onenote]

237. This was widely reported eight years ago and I doubt its suddenly going to hurt him now

The smear campaign against McCain in South Carolina in 2000 threw a lot of things around, including the charge that McCain had abandoned the POW cause after he got home, but the one that stuck was the charge that he had fathered an illeigitmate mixed race baby. As you may have noticed, eight years later, the people of South Carolina seemed to have forgotten/forgiven that smear campaign.

But again, if someone can lay out a strategy for pulling McCain down off his pedestal, I'm all ears. But keep in mind, you've got to find someone to make the charges for you -- just like the swiftboaters found some of Kerry's colleagues to lie about him, and just like Bush found a wingnut to lie about McCain. Who is going to do those things if the candidate running against McCain is Clinton or Obama?

[Virginia Dare]

240. I think Clinton would pull out all of the stops..

I'm not sure about Obama, but maybe he would as well.

McCain is in a very bad position against either one of them, because there is no way he will get through the whole campaign without looking like a racist or a sexist ass at some point or another. He simply can't control his mouth or his temper. That's a good thing.

He's got another problem, the right already hates him, and if he runs to the center to pick up the Independents, he further alienates the base. Plus, his fundraising abilities are piss poor because he has a real hard time sucking up to people. He thinks he's better and smarter than everybody and he has a keen ability at pissing people off.

I think we can probably beat him without getting too far down in the mud, but I hope we're not afraid to try if it comes to it.

[Savannah_H]

182. Hot Headed

Personally I don't like his wife. Can't imagine her as First Lady.

[onenote]

186. You're badly mistaken if you think that raising this could hurt McCain in any way.

First, let's stipulate to the obvious: the term "gooks" is offensive.
Second, this story is eight years old. And after first adamantly stating that he was going to continue to use the term to refer to his captors, he later apologized, stating "Although I will never forgive my prison guards for the atrocities they committed against my cellmates, I have always held the people of Vietnam in the highest regard and have worked in support of the Vietnamese-American community in this country at every opportunity. I will continue to condemn those who unfairly mistreated us. But out of respect to a great number of people whom I hold in very high regard, I will no longer use the term that has caused such discomfort.I deeply regret any pain I may have caused by my choice of words. I apologize and renounce all language that is bigoted and offensive, which is contrary to all that I represent and believe.''
That apology was widely accepted by the Vietnamese community in the United States.

McCain has a temper. I know that well from close friends who worked on the Commerce Committee staff. But is he racist? His record of support for normalizing relations with Vietnam suggests otherwise.

And from a political standpoint, the only thing you accomplish by making an issue of this is that you:
1. remind people that McCain is a war hero who suffered mightily while held captive by the Vietnamese;
2. remind people that eight years he spoke intemperately about his captors, apologized for it and his apology was widely accepted;
3. he has spoken out against torture;
4. he has supported normalizing relations with a former enemy, which makes him look a lot more flexible than chimpy or romney.

In other words, it doesn't hurt him.

[Virginia Dare]

193. Right. I remember when they said that about the Swiftboaters..

and Kerry. How wrong we were about that.

[onenote]

205. good luck with that one

See how far swiftboating someone who spent five and a half years in a Vietnamese pow camp gets you.

If it comes from the right, it'll be dismissed as cranks. If it comes from the left, it will be dismissed as lies.

[Virginia Dare]

217. Why is that do you think?

look what Rove did to McCain and Max Cleland. This is the kind of thing that makes me want to pull my hair out.

[TwilightGardener]

221. Whether or not it is "usable" in a campaign is immaterial to me, although

I certainly don't see why his lack of impulse control and his temperament can't be an issue. It's the fact that he didn't see anything wrong with using the term--indeed, DELIBERATELY chose it, that alarms me--and had there not been an outcry, he'd probably still be using it. He stopped being a hero 35 years ago. Now he's just a politician, and his words can and should certainly come back to haunt him, no matter what excuses, apologies or maneuverings he makes. If John Kerry had said the word "gooks" in a hostile manner as a Senator, he would have been politically destroyed long before he ever ran for President, but it's OK if you're a Republican and a veteran, I guess.

[onenote]

228. he apologized for it eight years ago. Its not going to hurt him.

[Virginia Dare]

230. Like I said..

repubs get a pass, but if Hillary Clinton is the nominee, she'll be forced to apologize for any and all statements she made going back 20 years. She'll have to apologize for her husband's blowjobs. Obama will have to apologize for his middle name and the fact that he snorted coke 25 years ago. We can't let this slide this time. We just can't.

[onenote]

235. convince me that it would work.

Saying that we 'can't let this slide' is meaningless. Show me how you can us this in a way that doesn't backfire.

[Virginia Dare]

236. We can't allow the double standard..

if him saying "I apologized for that 8 years ago" is sufficient, then so should it be for our side as well.

[onenote]

238. and I ask again: how do you make it work

Just saying that there shouldn't be a double standard doesn't mean that there isn't one. I agree there shouldn't be one. But I doubt we defeat it by employing the same tactics. If anything we probably just reinforce it.

[Virginia Dare]

239. Do you take the John Kerry high road then?

not dignify it with a response? How'd that work for us?

[onenote]

243. absolutely not

I think you respond and respond hard. What I don't think you do is respond not by answering the charge but by throwing a different charge at McCain.

[Virginia Dare]

246. Agreed..

we definitely need to be offensive and not defensive this time. That's why I say, make him defend every stupid-ass thing he's said in the last 20 years. Negative campaigns work. It's unfortunate but true. You know they'll be doing it to our side.

[TwilightGardener]

247. I seriously believe we have very high stakes, not just for the country, but for the world, in

the next election--we are in a very precarious position, both in foreign and domestic policy, and a study came out today that suggests we are not able to defend ourselves from attack because our military is stretched so thin. I will turn a blind eye to whatever Hillary or Obama (or their surrogates) have to do in order to win and keep this psycho out of office.

[Virginia Dare]

249. The stakes could not be higher..

and I said that in 2000 and again in 2004. We can't be caught flatfooted again. They will go after us and hard. We need to be proactive this time. If it means going on the attack, by all means, go for it. Don't hold anything back. I'd rather go down fighting this time then just hand it over to them once again. The world needs to know what evil vindictive greedy fucks these people really are.

[NOLALady]

189. It makes one wonder

Will the Iraqi and Afghani hate all Americans, or all "Europeans"? I couldn't think of a slur for European that's equivalent to gook or the n's.

[George_Bonanza]

241. Not all "gooks" are Vietnamese POW guards

Would McCain have said, "I hate White people, and I will always hate them" after the Bushies destroyed his campaign in 2000? No, he would've said he hated Bush and his cronies. So why can't he say that he just hates Vietnamese POW guards? Everybody would feel sympathetic to him. But because he has some racist tendencies, he sees no difference between a Vietnamese POW guard during the Vietnam War, and any other Asian.

[Jed Dilligan]

253. The 70 year old Republican white guy is a racist?

Wow, who'd a thunk?

[opihimoimoi]

257. Its the Free Racist Card...he thinks he got a license to Racism via remarks not PC.

The Sheer Arrogance of him....pity....the star of the GOP going down in flames..in Nov.

[Bluebear]

258. Unfortunately

He has his defenders over that disgraceful statement, right here at DU.

[opihimoimoi]

266. Birds of a Feather...sti........Closet Pubs??

[readmoreoften]

271. It's really unreal to me. There is no excuse for hating a race of people 30 years after the fact.

I can forgive someone for irrational bigoted statements made in delirium or after an ordeal--although I don't think it's right or indicative of character I accept it as an irrational reaction.

But 30 FUCKING YEARS LATER?

Hey, I've got a history of sexual abuse; do I go around hating men? No.

I can't believe that there are people here sympathetic to this asshole.

[Thothmes]

287. I t may be unreal to you

But I can easily see it happening. The 85 year old Concentration Camp survivor still hates the German Guards. The old survivors of the Japanese occupation of Nanking still hate the Japanese that brutilized them. The Korean women who became "Comfort Women" to battalions of Japanese soldiers may still hate the Japanese. I know a couple of Americans who were POWs in the Phillipines, 50 years later they still hate Japanese. I suppose 5 years as a guest of Ho Chi Min (sic) would be sufficient to develop a hatred of those men that guarded the Hanoi Hilton. I believe there are just some circumstances where people have been so badly brutalized that they only recall hatred for those that brutalized them and will continue to do so to the grave. It is unfortunate but it happens.

[VotesForWomen]

269. they probably hated you too, dickweed. nt

[brentspeak]

285. Huh? They freaking TORTURED him.

So, yeah, they apparently did hate him -- as well as all the other American POWs.

I'm not a McCain fan, but you are aware that he was tortured by the Viet Cong for several years in the Hanoi Hilton? You make it sound like he had it coming to him.

[Thothmes]

286. Not Viet Cong, the NVA

[Rex]

270. John is human garbage.

Worthless.

[Swamp Rat]

273. He's a Maverick! ... RRRrrrrrRRRrrrrrRRRrrrrrr VROOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!!!!!!

[terrya]

274. You're right.

I don't want this man anywhere near the Oval Office.

[indepat]

275. Perhaps McCain should consider what Americans would have done to a captive whose nation had

inflicted on American soil what the US inflicted on Vietnam soil, dropping more tonnage of bombs than were dropped in Europe in WWII, and leaving millions dead. Perhaps McCain should read the Vietnam chapter of Barbara Tuchman's "The March of Folly." I'm not justifying the torture inflicted on McCain, but just asking what if it were America that had suffered millions of casualties on its own soil by a foreign invader when considering the wholesale torture being presently inflicted on others by Amurikkkans.

Edited for spelling

[-..__...]

278. He has nothing to apologize or be sorry for.

On October 26, 1967, McCain was flying as part of a 20-plane attack against a thermal power plant in central Hanoi, a heavily defended target area that had previously been off-limits to U.S. raids.<35><36> McCain's A-4 Skyhawk was shot down by a Soviet-made SA-2 anti-aircraft missile<36> while pulling up after dropping its bombs.<37> McCain fractured both arms and a leg in being hit and ejecting from his plane.<38> He nearly drowned after he parachuted into Truc Bach Lake in Hanoi.<35> After he regained consciousness, a mob gathered around him, spat on him, kicked him and stripped him of his clothing.<39> Others crushed his shoulder with the butt of a rifle and bayoneted him in his left foot and abdominal area; he was then transported to Hanoi's main prison.<39> Although McCain was badly wounded, his captors refused to put him in the hospital, deciding he would soon die anyway. They beat and interrogated him, but McCain only offered his name, rank, serial number, and date of birth.<39> Only when the North Vietnamese discovered that his father was a top admiral did they give him medical care<39> and announce his capture. At this point, two days after McCain's plane went down, that event and his status as a POW made the front page of The New York Times.<32>

McCain spent six weeks in a hospital, receiving marginal care, was interviewed by a French television reporter whose report was carried on CBS, and was observed by a variety of North Vietnamese, including the famous General Vo Nguyen Giap. Many of the North Vietnamese observers assumed that he must be part of America's political-military-economic elite.<39> Now having lost 50 pounds, in a chest cast, and with his hair turned white,<35> McCain was sent to a prisoner-of-war camp in Hanoi in December 1967, into a cell with two other Americans who did not expect him to live a week (one was Bud Day, a future Medal of Honor recipient); they nursed McCain and kept him alive.<40> In March 1968, McCain was put into solitary confinement, where he would be for two years.<39> In July 1968, McCain's father was named Commander-in-Chief, Pacific Command (CINCPAC), stationed in Honolulu and commander of all U.S. forces in the Vietnam theater.<4> McCain was immediately offered a chance to return home early:<35> the North Vietnamese wanted a mercy-showing propaganda coup for the outside world, and a message that only privilege mattered that they could use against the other POWs.<39> McCain turned down the offer of repatriation due to the Code of Conduct of "first in, first out": he would only accept the offer if every man taken in before him was released as well.<41> McCain's refusal to be released was even remarked upon by North Vietnamese officials to U.S. envoy Averell Harriman at the ongoing Paris Peace Talks.<35>

In August 1968, a program of vigorous torture methods began on McCain, using rope bindings into painful positions and beatings every two hours, at the same time as he was suffering from dysentery.<39><35> Teeth and bones were broken again as was McCain's spirit; the beginnings of a suicide attempt was stopped by guards.<35> After four days of this, McCain signed an anti-American propaganda "confession" that said he was a "black criminal" and an "air pirate",<35> although he used stilted Communist jargon and ungrammatical language to signal the statement was forced.<42> He would later write, "I had learned what we all learned over there: Every man has his breaking point. I had reached mine."<39> His injuries to this day have left him incapable of raising his arms above his head.<43> His captors tried to force him to sign a second statement, and this time he refused. He received two to three beatings per week because of his continued refusal.<44> Other American POWs were similarly tortured and maltreated in order to extract "confessions".<39> On one occasion when McCain was physically coerced to give the names of members of his squadron, he supplied them the names of the Green Bay Packers' offensive line.<42> On another occasion, a guard surreptitiously loosened McCain's painful rope bindings for a night; when he later saw McCain on Christmas Day, he stood next to McCain and silently drew a cross in the dirt with his foot<45> (decades later, McCain would relate this Good Samaritan story during his presidential campaigns, as a testament to faith and humanity<46><47>). McCain refused to meet with various anti-war peace groups coming to Hanoi, such as those led by David Dellinger, Tom Hayden, and Rennie Davis, not wanting to give either them or the North Vietnamese a propaganda victory based on his connection to his father.<39>

In October 1969, treatment of McCain and the other POWs suddenly improved, after a badly beaten and weakened POW who had been released that summer disclosed to the world press the conditions to which they were being subjected.<39> In December 1969, McCain was transferred to Hoa Loa Prison, which later became famous via its POW nickname of the "Hanoi Hilton".<39> McCain continued to refuse to see anti-war groups or journalists sympathetic to the North Vietnamese regime;<39> to one visitor who did speak with him, McCain later wrote, "I told him I had no remorse about what I did, and that I would do it over again if the same opportunity presented itself."<39> McCain and other prisoners were moved around to different camps at times, but conditions over the next several years were generally more tolerable than they had been before.<39>

Altogether McCain was held as a prisoner of war in North Vietnam for five and a half years. The Paris Peace Accords were signed on January 27, 1973, ending direct U.S. involvement in the war, but the Operation Homecoming arrangements for POWs took longer; McCain was finally released from captivity on March 15, 1973,<48> having been a POW for almost an extra five years due to his refusal to accept the out-of-sequence repatriation offer.<49>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McCain#Prisoner_of_war

[Bluebear]

281. Yes, everyone knows what he endured. I still don't give him a pass on bigotry.

Sorry.

[ZenKitty]

292. Sticks and Stones and all that

Good god...there are times when one must try to put themselves in another's shoes. Torture != bigoted statement.

[Bluebear]

293. I don't understand what you're getting at

[orleans]

289. so i guess he's not going for the vietnamese-american vote, is he? n/t

[Bluebear]

290. Or the Koreans.

"Gook" came from "hanguk", the Korean word for, well, a Korean.

[orleans]

291. thanks. (or the asian-american vote in general, i should say.) (he's such a flop!) n/t