Turn any compact car into a plug in hybrid for $3300 ?

[Fumesucker]

I just found this system..

What do y'all think?

Anyone interested?

http://www.poulsenhybrid.com/poulsen.html

Creates a PHEV by retro-fitting electric motors, DC motor controllers, storage batteries and an on-board charger to a conventional new or used automobile.

The development is based on the observation that only 10-15 horsepower is required to propel a compact or mid-size automobile along a level road at a steady 60-70 mph. leading to the conclusion that this relatively small amount of electric power would be able to cope with 70-85% of normal driving, only aided by the combustion engine during start up and when extra energy is required for acceleration and hill climbing.

The patented system incorporates powerful electric motors mounted externally onto 2 wheels of a conventional car. The motors are normally applied to the rear wheels, in the process converting a front wheel driven car to all wheel drive. The system works equally well with rear- and all wheel drive vehicles, gasoline or diesel fueled.

[madrchsod]

1. someone here at du just built a battery car

of course the name escapes me and the date it was posted... dam nice installation...maybe a search could find the post

[NickB79]

6. I think it was wtmusic

He/She posts on the Environmental board from time to time.

Converted Ford Escort, if I remember correctly.

[alfredo]

2. looks interesting

[Fumesucker]

3. I just ran a few numbers..

If you drive 12,000 miles/year at 30 mpg your gas will cost $1600 per year at $4.00/gal..

If you could save 75% of that with a system like this then you could recoup the cost in about three years..

The motors and controllers should last essentially forever and you could upgrade batteries as you wear them out.

[truedelphi]

7. Thanks for the analysis concerning the life of the motors etc n/t

[Fumesucker]

12. I'm almost certain the motor is brushless..

Which means that it is wire, magnets, some steel and bearings.. Not much to go wrong there.. Other than the bearings it would be zero maintenance..

The controllers are going to be fairly sophisticated but they make brushless motors and controllers to go in model airplanes these days and the performance can be astounding.. I've seen electric model planes accelerate straight up out of sight right out of the launcher's hand in five or six seconds.. It's known as "specking out", as in the plane becomes a speck..

Here is a video of European F5B electric model championships.. This is an extreme test for motors, batteries and controllers..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXNcsNLXnUM

[FirstLight]

4. I am SO onboard with this idea!

after hitting serious sticker shock today at the pump, and shopping for hybrids (which I can SO not afford) this could very well be an answer.

WHY can't we undertake a major retrofitting of ALL combustible engines? and yes, I understand the scope, but there is where the industry lies!That, and re-training our auto and other oil industry workers how to make these changes, could be a whole new life for our economy and a hope to change our nasty oil addictions?

can it happen? can I send an email to Obama? hmmm...

[Ian David]

5. For an extra $600 they'll install it for you.

I want to check this out!

[NNN0LHI]

8. ...only aided by the combustion engine during start up and when extra energy is required...

>>>only aided by the combustion engine during start up and when extra energy is required for acceleration and hill climbing<<<

What about the power brakes and power steering on most vehicles? Try turning the engine off going about 55 MPH sometime and report back to us how well those things work without the internal combustion running to power them. Then start thinking about no heat or air conditioning because there won't be none of that either.

Who is coming up with this shit?

Don

[Fumesucker]

10. You have to let the engine run..

But it's running either at idle or just above.. Substantial fuel savings.

Or you can go and pay big bucks for a new hybrid..

[seasat]

36. Electic cars use an electric vacuum pump for the brakes.

They run the pump off the battery to create vacuum for the power breaks. The power steering pump is driven by a separate electric motor or tied in with electric motor if mounted up front.

[lumberjack_jeff]

9. Pretty cool.

The engine will still need to run during cruise to maintain power brakes/steering though.

[Fumesucker]

11. It's certainly not a perfect system..

But it would substantially increase the fuel efficiency of the existing fleet of vehicles at a fairly reasonable cost..

And the thing is, it could be moved to another car if the car you have it in breaks so badly it's not worth fixing.. Probably all you would need is the wheel adapters if your newer car had a different bolt pattern/spacing, etc..

The batteries, motors and controller would just take out of the old car and put in the new.

What most people don't realize is that you save a lot more money and energy taking a car that gets say 15 mpg and making it get 25 mpg than one that gets 30 mpg and making it get 40 mpg..

12,000 miles per year/15 mpg = 800 gallons
800 * $4.00 = $3200 per year..
12,000/25 = 480 gallons
480 * $4.00 = $1920

Total fuel savings = $1280

12,000/30 = 400 gallons
400 * $4.00 = $1600
12,000/40 = 300 gallons
300 * $4.00 = $1200

Total savings = $400

[lumberjack_jeff]

15. It seems like it'd be better to mount the drive apparatus inside the wheel.

... perhaps mounted under the rear crossmember on a fwd car. You would no longer need that moving torque arm gizmo.

Also, it seems to me that this could pretty easily incorporate some rudimentary regenerative braking. :shrug:

[Fumesucker]

16. That would make mounting to different cars a lot more complicated..

Regen braking could probably be done but it couldn't be very powerful or you would rip the torque arms off..

Regen controllers for brushless motors are much more complex and expensive.. I've had a brushed motor regen controller in an electric model race car for nearly fifteen years now, it's about the size of a small matchbox and weighs about 40 grams.. Handles about 80 amps but only at 15 volts or so.

The beauty of this system is simplicity and adaptability..

[lumberjack_jeff]

17. ... which is another reason to mount it under-car

The crossmember is built/attached such that it can accommodate the braking forces. Those torque arms strike me as kinda bogus.

... but yeah, regen braking might be overkill.

[muriel_volestrangler]

23. Apparently there is some regenerative braking involved

This is a real company a division of which is producing the 7kw hub motors used in this nice approach to adding electric drive to the rear wheels of any car. They are about 1-2 months away from beta testing their product. Which will sell for less than $4k for a lead acid system (7kw-hours) or about $7k for one using Lion batteries (from China) which will fit nicely in the spare tire wheel well of most vehicles. They are ramping up the ability to manufacture the motors in volume so many of us will have the option to use this low cost approach to having a "Gridable-Hybrid".

The system puts out constant torque to help move the vehicle and switches to regenerative braking when the brake light is activated. This is a simple control strategy that should be sufficient for many situations. It should also help mask the Prius (yes, it can work with ANY car) Traction Control "stalling" issue and let me get up my driveway in bad weather.

http://fdbryant3.newsvine.com/_news/2008/05/08/1476862-poulsen-hybrid-car-conversion-kit-takes-aim-at-x-prize-your-wallet-engadget

[Fumesucker]

24. Good catch.. Thanks.

The braking would be no more powerful than the pushing force.. Kind of like coasting up a moderate hill..

But you should be slowing down well in advance of lights, traffic anyway for best economy..

[lumberjack_jeff]

25. My subconscious had to work on this overnight.

The other reason this could be improved is that the rear suspension of all cars with which I'm familiar have a trailing arm or something analagous to guarantee that the rear suspension moves in an arc, the center of which is located some distance forward of the rear wheels. The diagram on the website shows the torque arm mounted behind the rear wheel. To allow the suspension to work as designed, the mounting point of the torque arm will need to be free to move.

[Fumesucker]

26. The torque arm does not have to be competely rigid where it attaches to the motor..

I'm sure the developers have spent a lot of time thinking this through. The torque arm is only there to keep the motor from rotating backward and to feed the power to the motors.. The joint at the motor only needs to be constrained so that it will not rotate, otherwise it can twist as needed.

[lumberjack_jeff]

35. As the suspension moves, the distance between the center of the wheel

... and the torque arm mounting point changes.

Maybe the torque arm telescopes? :shrug:

[Fumesucker]

37. It looks like the torque arm might be slotted on the end..

If you listen to the interview, the designers say it can be used even on all four wheels on a car.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

32. Here's a hybrid converter that is mounted in the engine

It's due to come out later this year. This one is mounted in the place of the alternator, but it only works on modern cars with automatic transmissions.

http://www.sigmaautomotive.com/electrocharger/electrocharger.php

I think I prefer the system described by the OP, using the rear wheels.

I think it's promising that independent companies are trying to find niches in providing means to improve gas mileage. Hopefully, this is just the beginning.

[Fumesucker]

34. I read the faq on the electrocharger..

And I see a couple of things they got wrong..

For instance, they say that the alternator on a regular car requires five to ten horsepower to drive it, that is definitely too high, the actual figure is more like one half to two horsepower.

[panzerfaust]

13. "... can be owner installed in 3-4 hours ...", hummmmmm

Has anyone done this?

Does anyone know of anyone anywhere who has done this, or had it done?

Is there a working prototype?

[Fumesucker]

14. This is being developed for the "X Prize"..

It is a new idea but the technology is very well proven in other applications..

[Fumesucker]

18. Bumpf for the morning crew..

And a link to a picture of the system mounted on a diesel Jetta.

http://www.poulsenhybrid.com/index.html




Oh, and I worked out that the force on the end of the torque rod where it mounts to the rear of the car is only about 20 pounds or so for each motor at full power..

[OneBlueSky]

19. batteries not included, I presume . . . that will raise the cost significantly . . . n/t

.

[OneBlueSky]

20. batteries not included, I presume . . . that will raise the cost significantly . . . n/t

.

[Fumesucker]

21. You didn't read the link, I presume.. ;-)

Batteries are indeed included.. And a charger.

[OneBlueSky]

38. you're right . . . my bad . . . thirty lashes with a wet noodle . . . n/t

[liberalla]

22. Way cool !

I think in the DVD, "Who killed the electric car?", they said any car can be retrofitted to run on an alternate energy source. This included hydrogen, electric, and others I don't recall right now. I'll have to check on that (I think that was where I saw it). That would be so cool, and I would do it!

[Robbien]

27. Okay, this is a thread which definately goes on my bookmarked list

What an interesting idea.

Saving it for researching it a bit later.

[Fumesucker]

28. I found an inteview with the inventors/developers of this system.

http://xprizecars.com/2008/03/interview-with-ulrik-poulsen.php

[Fumesucker]

29. And here are pictures of my electric car..

I've been running and racing electric powered model cars and planes for nearly fifteen years now..

My car is an Associated RC10L with a carbon fiber frame and an AC Cobra body on it (I always wanted a Cobra, this is the closest I'll ever get to having one). I have a regenerative braking controller in it with adjustable torque limiting and a 14 turn quad motor.. The performance will astound anyone who has never watched one of these racing cars run before.






And this is my controller..

[NickB79]

30. My Scion already gets 35 mpg combined. What could this mod. boost that to?

Because I'm loving the concept!

[Fumesucker]

31. It's really hard to say..

At 35 mpg it's going to be hard to recoup the cost very quickly, even if you were to double the mileage to 70 mpg.

I suspect that 70 mpg or even more might not be out of the question.

The X prize the manufacturers are going after is aimed at a 100 mpg car..

After some thinking and running a few numbers I have come to the conclusion that the worse your car is mileage wise, the more money you can save on fuel with an add on kit like this..

[DU GrovelBot]

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