Immigration Raids: Harbinger of a Police State?

[marmar]

from AlterNet's PEEK:



Immigration Raids: Harbinger of a Police State?

Posted by David Neiwert, Firedoglake at 9:24 AM on May 26, 2008.

What happens when the immigration raids in Iowa spread to other cities and states?



It's telling that last week's mass immigration raid in Iowa, during which immigrant workers were rounded up and treated like cattle, was heralded by the whupping of federal helicopters hovering over the town and its meat-processing plant.

One of its warning signs was that the feds showed up a week before and blackened out the windows of the Cattle Congress facility to prepare it for holding large numbers of detainees.

As one of the locals put it:

"What's that all about? You know, what does that sound like? That's just creepy, just things that seem really unAmerican, that seem on the down low," Howard says. "No one should be treated this way. These aren't drug runners. They're not terrorists." Howard calls the raid "political maneuvering" to show people the Bush Administration is doing something on illegal immigration.

As Joshua Holland at AlterNet suggests, the feds' behavior throughout, while "professional" enough, has raised the specter of law enforcement that is all about keeping workers in a state of fear, and leaving the employers who are manipulating them completely unscathed.

According to the Associated Press, an attorney who interviewed some of those swept up in the raid said that the company itself "obtained false identification for immigrant workers." But in the overwhelming majority of these raids -- 98 percent, according to the Washington Post -- the only people to pay any penalty are poor people trying to earn a substandard wage working in America's growing unregulated economy. Meanwhile, ICE charged many of the detained with "identity theft" for those faked papers, effectively giving immigration hard-liners what Congress hasn't granted them through the legislative process: serious criminal charges for what have always been misdemeanor immigration violations at most.

Most of all, it's clear that the plant's owners were in the business of seriously exploiting the illegal status of their workers -- abusing them, underpaying them, exposing them to hazardous working conditions -- and the raids actually had the effect of covering that up:

In this case, as in many others like it, many of the workers appear to have been seriously exploited. The AP reported that the plant's management "improperly withheld money from employees' paychecks for 'immigration fees,' didn't allow workers to use the restroom during 10-hour shifts, physically abused workers and didn't compensate them for overtime work."

According to MSNBC, workers at the plant were routinely started at $5 per hour for their first three or four months on the job and then raised to $6, still well below Iowa's minimum wage of $7.25. Iowa Labor Commissioner David Neil confirmed to the Des Moines Register that Agriprocessors was being investigated by the state on suspicion of wage violations, paying people off the books and hiring underage workers. A copy of the federal warrant obtained by the Register described an incident in which "a supervisor covered the eyes of an employee with duct tape and struck him with a meat hook."

It's unclear what the raids' impact will be on the ongoing investigations into the company's workplace violations. With hundreds of workers -- and potential witnesses -- carted away, Jill Cashen, a spokesperson for the United Food and Commercial Workers (UFCW), asked: "how can justice ever be served on these exploitation issues?" Agriprocessor's management must have been pleased with the timing of the raid. Not only did it put at least a crimp in the ongoing investigations of serious allegations of abuse by the company, it also derailed an effort by UFCW to organize the plants' workers and give them a shot at bargaining with management for better working conditions.

According to the Boston Herald, the fine folks at Agriprocessors in fact were helping illegal immigrants with their illegal paperwork:

A federal informant who worked at Agriprocessors told officials about workers who appeared to be undocumented having trouble getting paid. ... Other workers admitted to gaining employment using fraudulent documents. One worker claimed that he got a job without having any documents. When he received his first paycheck, the warrant application says, "it had another unknown person's name on it. This check was then taken to another portion of the plant where it was cashed."

This strongly suggests that company officials were systematically helping undocumented people work at the plant.

.....(more)

The complete piece is at: http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/86479/

[midnight]

1. What happens when the immigration raids in Iowa spread to

to other cities and states? What happens when the raids spread to include those who are considered a threat to some other issue?

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

18. These people are not being arrested because they are a threat.

They are being arrested because they are breaking the law..

The only real beef I have with this is that complicit employers are not being deported as well..

[Cleita]

42. The employers are not being charged at all. I just heard it on the news.

I still think criminalizing the will to work with jail time is inhumane. They need to be taken to court, fined and given a set amount of time to leave the country.

[Andy823]

57. I agree with you.

If the employer was fined, and had to do jail time, things would change. The illegals come because employers breaking the law and hiring them to keep wages down, avoid benefits, and to break unions. If there were no jobs for illegals, they would either go about the process to come here legally, or stay home. Put the employers in jail!

[Cleita]

62. I disagree about throwing the employers in jail.

There are many ways to make them comply before this. Jail should be a last resort. Employers who keep immigrants in slave like conditions should go to jail but they seldom do. Wal-Mart has been a corporation that has been found to keep illegal immigrants in slave like conditions in the past and yet and I haven't seen any of them fined or punished in a meaningful way or any high management sent to jail.

[Critters2]

2. Identity theft is, and ought to be a crime. Agriprocessors execs

should be prosecuted. But make no mistake. If you eat meat, you enable what they've been doing to their workers.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

19. And if you eat vegatables are you enabling the abuse

of abused and exploited illegal harvesters?

[Cleita]

28. A little change of law would make the harvesters legal and

not exploited. There is a farm workers union out there. I live in an agricultural area and many of the farm workers are paid union wages. They have taxes taken from their checks too.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

30. Im not arguing against making folks legal..

I was just turning around that judgmental fingers many vegans and vegetarians wave on *every thread* they can..

"If you eat meat, you enable what they've been doing to their workers."

Which is as a north Vietnamese general once said, regarding their inability to win a heads up battle with American forces, "That is true, but it is also irrelevant" because abuse happing in the gathering of vegetable and fruit produce as well.

--

We should enforce living wages and hold farms and factories to them, that in and of itself will fix most of this issue..

[Cleita]

32. Yes, it would and herein lies the

hypocrisy of the alien haters.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

34. But you assume anyone who wants to

enforce our immigration laws are alien haters.... If thats not just the kind of dehumanization you seem to rail against in other spots I dont know what is.

You take a complex issue and stake it into two camps..

Agrees with you
Hates other people

Clearly there is allot more gray than you allow for..

[Cleita]

39. I just heard on the news that the meat packers rounded up in Iowa as

undocumented workers have been sentenced to prison time but the employers are not charged. Lemme see, employers, who gave
good jobs to those workers who would work for less, undocumented workers of another ethnicity, are not being charged for giving jobs to those undocumented aliens, but the illegal aliens will do jail time because evidently the employers can't be charged because of some "good ole boy" unwritten law.

Guess what? The coyotes are waiting over the border with busloads of new starving and willing workers. It seems to me that the unemployed and legal workers in the meat packing business need to start picketing those plants as well as filing class action law suits. I'm sure that there are laws in Iowa that hold the employers responsible and it will be up to the people to force the namby pamby authorities to enforce them, but to jail people who only want jobs seems really mean to me. That's like jailing homeless people because they don't have a place to sleep other than in public.

This is where I stand. I find the present immigration laws do not address the root problem and that they are inhumane and draconian for the purported crime. Gee, Americans always brag about their work ethic but now want to criminalize people who have it.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

53. Youll see from my other post on this thread (and others about this issue)

That I think employers should be doing time! By my disgust at employers and my double disgust at them getting away with it does *not* mean I think others who break the law should get away with it.. Like I said there is allot of gray here...

"It seems to me that the unemployed and legal workers in the meat packing business need to start picketing those plants as well as filing class action law suits."

That sounds more than reasonable and were a union to picket a plant I would go out of my way to avoid buying produce from that plant..

"I'm sure that there are laws in Iowa that hold the employers responsible and it will be up to the people to force the namby pamby authorities to enforce them, but to jail people who only want jobs seems really mean to me."

I agree its wrong but the corrective action is to go after employers *not* to abandon immigration laws and allow the spiral of wages in what were middle class jobs to continue.

"I find the present immigration laws do not address the root problem and that they are inhumane and draconian for the purported crime."

I dont think deportation is 'draconian' and 'inhumane'..

--

I think you and I have allot of common ground on this issue..

[Cleita]

61. I didn't say deportation was draconian and inhumane.

Arresting people at work, throwing them into detention camps with no communication to the outside and not allowing them to provide for children that are left abandoned is draconian and inhumane. There is plenty of news reports out there that this is what is going on and many of those stories and first hand reports have been posted here on DU.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

65. Before you deport someone you have to arrest and process them..

Thats life..

[Cleita]

67. Do you get arrested when you get caught speeding?

No you get a ticket. You can go to court and plead your case and then pay a fine or sometimes even get sentenced for more. You don't go to jail unless you commit an act like hitting the police officer or your name comes up as a felon or something like that. Even if you do go to jail you would be able to call someone within a few hours. This isn't happening with the immigrants. They are being held incommunicado in camps where their relatives and friends don't know where to find them.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

69. Is someone with a speeding ticket a high flight risk?

[Cleita]

70. How would you know about their flight risk if you don't give them a chance

to prove otherwise? That's such bigoted thinking. Most of them have family here, a reason for them to try to cooperate if given a chance. Also, if your whole reasoning is for them to go back to where they come from, why would you care if they leave?

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

71. We do know

Statistics show that 70 percent of these immigrants, classified by domestic security officials as "other than Mexican" or "O.T.M.'s," fail to appear for their court dates.

--

Its pretty reasonable to assume Mexican immigrants would skip court as often as others..

--

Now onto some other hysteria you were posting..

"Mexicans continue to arrive in much larger numbers than citizens of other countries. Apprehensions have remained mostly stable for three years, officials said, and 90 percent of illegal immigrants from Mexico are returned within hours of capture."

[Cleita]

74. Well, it seems you and I are not on the same page, that of solving

a situation that is not being handled in a way a free and democratic country would handle it. You seem to want to see these particular undocumented workers thrown into jail, then thrown over the border without any concern over the humanity of how they should be processed. It seems heavy handed and frankly a bit too jackbooted an approach to me.

The truth is that if the employers were made to be accountable as lawbreakers, this abuse of labor laws among many others that don't even involve the hiring of low wage illegal workers would disappear. The aliens would probably stay home since there no longer is any opportunity for them to risk life and limb for a better life. Those jobs would be open to domestic labor and whether they would be filled with eager workers remains to be seen. However, making the employers honest and compliant with the law is the first step that needs to be taken for an effective policy. Anything else is throwing
vulnerable and helpless, stateless people under the bus.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

77. Its seems our views are different

Why would you care if unions and wages are getting undercut... who the hell cares about them lazy union workers asking too much monsey for a job Americans wont do.. They should starve in the street...

See I to can misrepresent the views of others..

[Cleita]

78. Them's fighting words.

No one is more pro union than me. It isn't the undocumented and non union workers who are undercutting the union workers. It's the corporate employers and the politicians who are screwing you at your jobs. Scapegoating some poor working shlub who is poorer than you gives them a pass and they like it that way. They like workers fighting with each other. What you should be working for is getting the Taft-Hartley Act revoked. Then you will see some union muscle that can bring you the good paying jobs back of yesteryear.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

81. Did you read the last line

"See I to can misrepresent the views of others.."

I was showing you how badly you were misrepresenting my views by misrepresenting yours... Its not fun when someone oversimplifies what you are saying to make the argument easier is it?

[SteveM]

64. What? This doesn't happen in vegetable/fruit processing plants?(nt)

[Cleita]

3. When I posted a similar sentiment here at DU

a couple of years back I was told I was full of crap! You know that the Germans didn't worry much about the Jews disappearing around them because they weren't one of them and they had all had similar reasons for disliking the Jews that Americans have for disliking the Mexicans. That they were horrified when they found out what happened to them didn't make up for the fact that they had no interest in what happened to the Jews like most Americans today have no interest in what happens to the undocumented workers when they are rounded up. It's only when the police state, which starts to become entrenched and institutionalized, starts extending its authority that people start sitting up and taking notice a little too late because by that time it is happening to them as it did to the Germans who fell afoul of the state.

[lonestarnot]

7. Cleita

Do you think they are holding Mexicans in work camps?

[Cleita]

12. They are being held in camps and other

marginal detention facilities that are nothing for us to be proud of. It's the start up of a bigger system if we don't nip it in the bud. Also, our regular prison system warehouses minorities and poor people as well. It's all being privatized too and being run by goons that have little oversight from the people.

[bean fidhleir]

15. What kind of nipping should be done?

There are a variety of possibilities, from a declaration that informal entry will no longer be policed (i.e., de-facto open border policy), through the kinds of viciously draconian measures that would certainly end informal economic migration (e.g., make undocumented entry or employment of such entrants a capital crime).

What do you believe should be done, and why?

[Cleita]

16. I believe this should be handled in a humane way.

As a person who has worked side by side with undocumented workers in my lifetime, I find these are people who have been kept at below subsistence levels economically in their own countries. Often they have escaped persecution and death in times of political unrest. All have been hard working and honest, their only crime being to enter this country illegally, out of desperation, to feed and educate their families.

I think we in America who have much more than they do need to extend sympathy to them while our real leaders come together to hammer out a real solution to their dilemma, not building detention camps, not by building walls and not by letting groups of racists with ties to white supremacist groups do vigilante patrols at our border. Our government can negotiate with those central American countries to make conditions better in their respective countries to keep them at home. All those countries are rich in national resources and money from tourism. None of that money trickles down because it's horded by the elitist upper classes of those countries. Our government needs to use a carrot and a stick to get their governments to make changes from within.

Treating these poorest of the poor like criminals only demeans us and shows how petty and mean we can be as a nation.

[bean fidhleir]

21. You refer to the people in refugee terms ("often they have escaped....")

Do you feel the same way about the frank economic migrants, e.g., the young males who come here intending to stay only long enough to amass some wealth that they'll then take back home and use to, e.g., set themselves up as landowners? (This isn't meant to be a gotcha question, I really want to know because, like you, I have feelings of sympathy for the refugees. But I don't have the same sympathy for those who, employed there, come here purely because they can make more money)

[Cleita]

25. Amass wealth?

You've got to be kidding! The more money that they want to make is the difference between being paid by the hour the same wage that they get in Mexico for the day and sometimes even the week. You tell me how you can amass wealth picking onions and frying burgers. I worked with a fellow who worked seven days a week twelve to eighteen hours at three different jobs for $3.25 to $3.75 an hour. He was able to save money to buy a home in Mexico for his family with a dirt floor and no plumbing. Are these the landowners you are talking about? I once asked him why he didn't work in Mexico and he told me he made the equivalent of $.75 a day in his job in Mexico.

[bean fidhleir]

38. No, not kidding. Not intentionally, anyway.

I'm sorry you take exception to my use of the term "wealth". It's the standard term, so I don't know what else to call it. "Accumulated money and salable personal property" maybe? I'm not invested in any particular term, so I'll call it whatever you like.

The material I can find (e.g., a paper on the differences between refugees and econ migrants by Kalena Cortes; stats from the Pew Hispanic Center) indicate that many (most?) non-refugees are young people -until recently nearly all male- who come, make money, take it back home, and improve their situation.

I can appreciate that someone like your acquaintance working in one of the low-rent fields like burger-flipping, stoop labor, or cleaning is not going to go back and buy a hacienda, but I assume even a dirt-floor house is a major step up. Else why bother?

But according to the stats, almost half the migrants (5M) work in the higher-paid ($8-12/hr) fields such as carpentry where they displace skilled citizen labor and lower wages (or so the citizens claim. The stats are vague, perhaps intentionally so).

So my question is really whether you see everyone in the same light regardless of their circumstances, or do you (as I do) have different operational definitions for "humane" depending on the circumstances of the group in view?

[Cleita]

40. I don't think a work ethic should be criminalized, not the way they are doing

it now. It used to be the alien was fined and given a certain amount of time, usually thirty days to take care of his affairs and go back to his country of origin if caught working here illegally. If they can't work, they might start taking up illegal activities like theft and drug running especially if the employers aren't being charged and made accountable for hiring them.

btw I'm familiar with the PEW Center and I believe that they try to be accurate, but really how can you measure something like this. It's not like you can go door to door taking a survey like, "Excuse me sir but are you here legally?"

[bean fidhleir]

44. Agreed that the way they're doing it now is gestapo-like and disgusting. The head of

HS should have to stand trial for a human-rights offense at the ICC.

I'm not sure about giving the undoc migrant 30 days to wrap up, but I like your idea that the employer should have to fund the migrant's (and family and/or hhg if applicable) return home.

Maybe the 30 days grace for the undoc would work if it were made clear that being given that grace is the soft option. But then, what should be done with a recidivist? The same grace period each time?

What would happen if we required that employers pay undocs 150% of the prevailing wage or get slapped with a truly massive, punitive fine?


(edit)Apropos Pew's research methods: pretty much the standard one is to get a member of the community to vouch for the legitimacy and trustworthiness of the interviewer, making clear that nobody wants personal identifiers, just accurate numbers.

[Cleita]

46. I don't think it has to be thirty days. It could be less I suppose. It's what they used to give,

but it doesn't have to be that particular figure. Also, repeat offenses by employers should increase the fine and punitive measures like closing them up for a period of time like the Alcoholic Beverage Control has the option of closing bars that have repeated illegal activities going on in them like drug dealing, gambling, etc. or even revoking their licenses if really incorrigible. There are ways to get the message across without having to resort to imprisonment.

[bean fidhleir]

48. I agree that the exact number is probably unimportant ...but what about recidivism

You know, the individual gets x number of days to wrap up and then prepaid transportation back home. But two weeks later he's back, working for a different contractor. What happens to him if/when he's caught again? If he only gets deported, what's his incentive to stay away?

[Cleita]

49. If they do then make it harder, like

a bigger fine for a second time offender and so on. The same should apply to the employer. Each time it should be more money paid out, maybe a license suspended for each succeeding offense. This is how they do it when you break other laws. Your first traffic ticket may not be that much, but as you keep getting citations, the fines go up and maybe community service is added on. Why can't they do the same for these non-violent infractions? I really think the jail time should only be way down the line for incorrigibles though, not herding them into detention camps leaving small children unattended without the chance to even make arrangements for their care before they are hauled off like cattle.

[formercia]

8. The illegal immigrants are just practice for fine-tuning the system.

They work out all the kinks and weed out any officers that might object to the tactics before they get to the real meat of the issue.

[Echo In Light]

13. Halliburton Confirms Concentration Camps Already Constructed

Halliburton Confirms Concentration Camps Already Constructed
http://www.libertyforlife.com/jail-police/us_concentration_camps.htm
=========================

The T. Don Hutto "Residential Center" is an immigrant detention facility in Taylor, Texas operated by Corrections Corp of America. A former high-security state prison, it and a smaller center in Pennsylvania are the only two facilities in the United States that are authorized to hold non-Mexican immigrant families and children on noncriminal charges. Its purpose is to hold immigrant families while their applications for asylum are being considered. It began operating in the summer of 2006 and currently holds 375 prisoners, approximately 200 of which are children. Previously immigrants with children would be released with a notice to appear before an immigration judge. The policy has changed and now families are being locked up in prison cells until their status is determined. Detainees are a diverse group, they include single men with children, pregnant women, and infants.
http://shutdownhutto.org/
==========================

Rule by fear or rule by law?
Lewis Seiler,Dan Hamburg Monday, February 4, 2008

"The power of the Executive to cast a man into prison without formulating any charge known to the law, and particularly to deny him the judgment of his peers, is in the highest degree odious and is the foundation of all totalitarian government whether Nazi or Communist." - Winston Churchill, Nov. 21, 1943

Since 9/11, and seemingly without the notice of most Americans, the federal government has assumed the authority to institute martial law, arrest a wide swath of dissidents (citizen and noncitizen alike), and detain people without legal or constitutional recourse in the event of "an emergency influx of immigrants in the U.S., or to support the rapid development of new programs."

Beginning in 1999, the government has entered into a series of single-bid contracts with Halliburton subsidiary Kellogg, Brown and Root (KBR) to build detention camps at undisclosed locations within the United States. The government has also contracted with several companies to build thousands of railcars, some reportedly equipped with shackles, ostensibly to transport detainees.

According to diplomat and author Peter Dale Scott, the KBR contract is part of a Homeland Security plan titled ENDGAME, which sets as its goal the removal of "all removable aliens" and "potential terrorists."

Fraud-busters such as Rep. Henry Waxman, D-Los Angeles, have complained about these contracts, saying that more taxpayer dollars should not go to taxpayer-gouging Halliburton. But the real question is: What kind of "new programs" require the construction and refurbishment of detention facilities in nearly every state of the union with the capacity to house perhaps millions of people?

Sect. 1042 of the 2007 National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA), "Use of the Armed Forces in Major Public Emergencies," gives the executive the power to invoke martial law. For the first time in more than a century, the president is now authorized to use the military in response to "a natural disaster, a disease outbreak, a terrorist attack or any other condition in which the President determines that domestic violence has occurred to the extent that state officials cannot maintain public order."

The Military Commissions Act of 2006, rammed through Congress just before the 2006 midterm elections, allows for the indefinite imprisonment of anyone who donates money to a charity that turns up on a list of "terrorist" organizations, or who speaks out against the government's policies. The law calls for secret trials for citizens and noncitizens alike.

Also in 2007, the White House quietly issued National Security Presidential Directive 51 (NSPD-51), to ensure "continuity of government" in the event of what the document vaguely calls a "catastrophic emergency." Should the president determine that such an emergency has occurred, he and he alone is empowered to do whatever he deems necessary to ensure "continuity of government." This could include everything from canceling elections to suspending the Constitution to launching a nuclear attack. Congress has yet to hold a single hearing on NSPD-51.

U.S. Rep. Jane Harman, D-Venice (Los Angeles County) has come up with a new way to expand the domestic "war on terror." Her Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism Prevention Act of 2007 (HR1955), which passed the House by the lopsided vote of 404-6, would set up a commission to "examine and report upon the facts and causes" of so-called violent radicalism and extremist ideology, then make legislative recommendations on combatting it.

According to commentary in the Baltimore Sun, Rep. Harman and her colleagues from both sides of the aisle believe the country faces a native brand of terrorism, and needs a commission with sweeping investigative power to combat it.

A clue as to where Harman's commission might be aiming is the Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act, a law that labels those who "engage in sit-ins, civil disobedience, trespass, or any other crime in the name of animal rights" as terrorists. Other groups in the crosshairs could be anti-abortion protesters, anti-tax agitators, immigration activists, environmentalists, peace demonstrators, Second Amendment rights supporters ... the list goes on and on. According to author Naomi Wolf, the National Counterterrorism Center holds the names of roughly 775,000 "terror suspects" with the number increasing by 20,000 per month.

What could the government be contemplating that leads it to make contingency plans to detain without recourse millions of its own citizens?

The Constitution does not allow the executive to have unchecked power under any circumstances. The people must not allow the president to use the war on terrorism to rule by fear instead of by law.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/02/04/ED5OUPQJ7.DTL

[Cleita]

17. Thanks for the article and links.

These are going in my files.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

20. When they start, or even discuss

arresting and detaining Hispanics who are here legally check back with me..

[Cleita]

23. Well they do and there are news stories out their if you google

where they have done so. There are high profile cases of American and Canadian citizens of Arab ethnicity being rendered to gitmo and other countries for interrogation and torture because our laws concerning illegal aliens are draconian and racist in intent. A high profile case was Jose Padilla an American. The most that should happen to someone, whose only crime is living and working in the country illegally is that the person be given a day in court, a fine and 30 days to leave the country. This is the way it used to be done. Also, employers need a day in court and a fine that should be increased each time he hires an undocumented worker. There is a civilized way of doing this and it was done this way when our illegals were from Europe, Australia and Canada, but they were white so no one got their panties in a wad about it.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

27. So youre comparing

The enforcing of our immigration laws to the crap that Bush is pulling on Arabic Americans?

"The most that should happen to someone, whose only crime is living and working in the country illegally is that the person be given a day in court, a fine and 30 days to leave the country."

Oh yea, that will work....

"Also, employers need a day in court and a fine that should be increased each time he hires an undocumented worker."

Youll get no argument from me there...

"There is a civilized way of doing this and it was done this way when our illegals were from Europe, Australia and Canada"

Really? nobody got their panties in a bunch over the Irish coming over? *WOW*

[Cleita]

31. Oh do we have different immigration laws?

One for Arabs, one for Latin Americans and another one for the rest? I think not. As for the Irish, I was married to one. They were mistreated by society as were the Italians, Poles, Chinese and others who came after them, but they were not illegal. They came here legally. They were not herded into detainment camps to my knowledge. They did do the jobs most Americans didn't want to do and they were able to make a better life for their children because of it.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

35. Ok because you brough him up..

Was Mr Padilla detained on immigration laws?

"As for the Irish, I was married to one. They were mistreated by society as were the Italians, Poles, Chinese and others who came after them, but they were not illegal."

Because at the time there was more available land and jobs than this country knew what to do with. But thank you for acknowledging that society looks down on immigrants *regardless* of skin color.

[Cleita]

41. Well not exactly.

I don't have any stats because I don't think anyone compiled any, but when I lived in Los Angeles, there were scads of illegal immigrants working in my community from Scandinavia (beautiful blond girls, very popular hirees), Great Britain (I lost a secretarial job to an illegal immigrant because the employer liked her accent.), Australia, Canada and any number of Asian countries. An acquaintance of mine owned a Sushi restaurant. Half the workers were Japanese illegals. No one in immigration bothered them. In one place I worked, a fellow worker, undocumented from Ireland was regularly teased about her status by police who frequented the restaurant. They told her she didn't have to worry because she wasn't Mexican. Like I said this is only anecdotal information from me, but I would be willing to do a lie detector and sign an affidavit to the veracity of it.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

54. Well not exactly = *NO*

You brought something that had *nothing* to do with the immigration into this because of its high emotional value and the fact its tied to *'s WOT. Its damn deceptive of you to do that!

"but when I lived in Los Angeles, there were scads of illegal immigrants working in my community from Scandinavia (beautiful blond girls, very popular hirees), Great Britain (I lost a secretarial job to an illegal immigrant because the employer liked her accent.), Australia, Canada and any number of Asian countries."

You'll pardon my skepticism of your anecdotal account: Did you report any of them? The problem with the enforcing of immigration laws is that you'll usually only find areas where there are many concentrated at a single place of business not the one off secretary. but as a % of illegals European, and Asians are a *huge* minority!

"About 80 percent of illegal immigrants were born in Latin America (with by far the largest share from Mexico), crossing the Mexican or Canadian borders." -- Jeffrey Passell, Unauthorized Migrants: Numbers and Characteristics, Pew Hispanic Center, June 2005.

Now I highly doubt that 20% of deportees are Asian / White but as I pointed out if you are a law enforcement body do you go after the one secretary or the factory with 300 people?

"I would be willing to do a lie detector and sign an affidavit to the veracity of it."

That would make it no more relevant..

[Cleita]

59. There wasn't anything to report because at that time it was legal for

employers to employ illegals as long as they took deductions from their salaries. It was openly tolerated for the European illegals and immigration had no interest in them. There were immigration sweeps in industries that hired a majority of Hispanics and often legal immigrants and American citizens got caught up in them, but for the most part the immigration did not raid businesses like restaurants, hotels and agriculture because the labor was needed and politically the immigration was leaned on not to use a heavy hand on these businesses. The chambers of commerce were powerful enough politically to do this. Generally the INS only went after immigrants who were suspected of criminal behavior and sometimes it was an easy way for the authorities to get rid of them.

I would love to go to the archives of the Los Angeles Times, San Francisco Chronicle, or Sacramento Bee for you that have many of these stories that were occasionally subjects of OP EDs. I'm sure there are official government sources documenting this too. However, unless I decide to write a book that you can buy if you are interested, it certainly is not worth my time just for you. However, if you are really invested in getting the truth here, you can do this investigation yourself. As it stands you have no right to call me a liar unless you can prove it.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

66. Really?

"employers to employ illegals as long as they took deductions from their salaries."

Show me that law!

[Cleita]

68. There was no law stating you had to check on an employees legality.

I know I was a payroll bookkeeper for a restaurant chain. The law only said that you had to have a SS on file and take deductions for all your employees. If you paid in cash, under the table so to speak, then you were in violation of the law. In 1984 that changed with the amnesty. Then you had to have them fill out a INS Form verifying their legality, stating that you looked at their work permit or green card. Many employers put those forms on file without verifying the green cards and business went on as usual. All you needed if some nosy inspector came around was those forms on file stating that you had seen those green cards. Incidentally, many illegals had legitimate SS nos. If you open a bank account in the USA because you are going to maybe do business here, the SS office will give you a SS# because the bank requires it.

[Arctic Dave]

4. All those people arrested and not one of them was the management?

So what kind of message does this send to the companies hiring undocumented workers?

[flashl]

5. When it spreads?

Religious, Labor and Civil Rights Organizations Call for an Immediate End to Immigration Raids(January 3)

Federal authorities launched a massive raid on a South End manufacturing plant detaining between 300 and 350 illegal immigrants(March 6, 2007)

Some detainees drugged for deportation - 5/15/2008

Immigration Raids Startle Communities in Oakland and Berkeley(May 7, 2008)

Immigration Raid News: In this post, clips from news articles: Twenty-four in Phoenix, Two hundred plus in South Florida, Eleven arrested in Virginia, Twenty-seven arrested in in New Mexico, Mother from Haiti separated from children...

[lonestarnot]

6. I have never ever seen so many for rent signs in south Snottsdale

in a little over 50 years. Nope never as many.

[Pachamama]

9. Have you been following what is happening in Italy w/ the new Conservative Gov't that just took

over? If not, I suggest people looking at what is happening here follow what is happening there as far as the raids on the "Romas" (not Romans but rather the Romanians aka "gypsies"). A lot of crime and illegal encampments as well as contributing to a rising garbage problem has led to such a backlash across Italy that the Conservatives and now led by Berlusconi were able to take a huge majority of the Parliament and power structure. As soon as they were sworn in, Berlusconi and others in the gov't sent out sweeping raids against the encampments and they are even going against EU rulings about immigration issues and want to in fact start instituting border checks which were eliminated when the EU took over.

Italian Police swoop in on Migrants
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/2/hi/europe/7402602.stm

Italian Minister wants to bring back Border Checks
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/05/11/europe/11italy.php

[UTUSN]

10. The canary is the first to go!1 n/t

[T Monk]

11. all these new internal security agents after 9-11 aren't a good sign tactically they're acting like

[notesdev]

14. They happen because of overwhelming demand

People recognize that illegal labor severely undercuts the wages of Americans, while requiring those very same Americans to pay for the aliens' use of public services. Joe American gets the shaft in both directions. It amounts to a massive subsidy to these employers NOT to hire Americans.

That's just messed up and it has no place in this country.

Make no mistake, the Bush admin does not at all want to do these raids, it's only because there has been a popular revolt brewing on the issue that they've acted at all.

[datasuspect]

22. test runs for a police state

it's on the job training for LEO's and military.

[Marrah_G]

24. meat-packing was once a good paying job

You could raise a family on it. But why pay a living wage when undocumented workers will work for less then minimum wage, not ask for benefits and never complain or file workman's comp or other grievances? I hope the owners go to jail and lose their business.

The only way to stop the flow of workers over the border is to stop the employers from hiring them. Let everyone here apply for citizenship and then shut these employers down unless they follow labor laws that were hard fought for.

[Cleita]

26. What you need to do is get your unions involved.

I believe there is a meat packing union out there. If you don't employers will seek cheaper workers where they can find them even if they are legal. In times of high unemployment wages drop because people are willing to work for less. You need to fight the causes that create this atmosphere to being with, not scapegoat a group of people for the blame that belongs with the employers and the conservative, corporate backed politicians people vote into office.

[Marrah_G]

29. The unions can't really do much at this point

The Undocumented are not going to stand up to the employers and the unions have no leverage against the companies, except maybe picketing and trying to stop the workers from going in. It pits union workers against the undocumented workers and someone could get hurt.

They need to start jailing the employers.

[Cleita]

33. Yes, they need to put the employers on the carpet, but I think

jailing them isn't the way. Fines, revocation of licenses and other disciplinary actions would be more effective.

[Marrah_G]

36. As long as it hurts them enough to be a deterant to others.

[flashl]

37. If you check closer, there seems to be ICE raids at meat packing companies with union activity. nt

[Cleita]

43. In Iowa the employers are not being charged with anything.

They should be shut down for let's say thirty days pending hearings to investigate who did what illegally. This should cause a loss of revenue for them to make them rethink how they go about complying with the law. Also, I think the employers should be forced to buy the bus ticket to the border that takes the illegal employees back to their own countries.

[bean fidhleir]

50. It just occurred to me that, nice and appropriate as a shutdown sounds,

what about the "straight" employees? I'm presuming there probably are some, that the employer isn't hiring 100% deportable people. So what happens to the straight employees when the employer gets shut down? They can get unemployment, but by design that's always much less than their wage.

[Cleita]

56. Maybe that could be part of the employer's punishment to keep them

on payroll through the shutdown.

[slackmaster]

45. There aren't enough police in this country to make it a true police state

When they repeal the Posse Comitatus Act, is the time to be worried about that.

[Cleita]

47. Well not government issue type police forces, which seem to be chronically

underfunded and understaffed, but I think they are planning on the privatized outfits taking over that function like Blackwater. It makes for their own gestapo that aren't subject to much oversight like the government run institutions. I believe this is what they are aiming for.

[slackmaster]

51. Private outfits are far too prone to corruption to make an effective national police force

I'm not worried about it.

[Cleita]

55. Good for you!

But do read up on history and be aware of how Hitler's SA and SS started out as private militia. I know. I had a hard time with only my American experience in government issue militia whether federal, state or municipal to wrap my brain around the fact that Germany, a democratic republic, before the Nazis took over, had private militias openly warring each other in the streets of Germany and other European nations as well.

[slackmaster]

58. And you should read up on the US militia system

Which is alive and well, and includes almost everyone.

[Cleita]

63. Well other than the Montana Militia, the Aryan Nation and other

white might militias I don't know what you mean. Up until the Bush administration our military and police have been provided by and regulated by the government. Now we have corporate militias being hired by our government as out sources like Blackwater, which I believe an intrepid investigative reporter can find proof that they are descended from the aforementioned white might militias. Of course let's not forget the vigilante Minute Men with ties to white might militias as well. These radical militias never had any respectability nor power before the Bush administration. They were a bunch of nut jobs living on compounds, wearing camouflage, shooting guns and pretending to be soldiers.

[slackmaster]

72. Here's the actual text of the law and a link for your education

TITLE 10 > Subtitle A > PART I > CHAPTER 13 > § 311Prev | Next § 311. Militia: composition and classes

a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are—
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/search/display.html?terms=militia&url=/uscode/html/uscode10/usc_sec_10_00000311----000-.html

The Montana Militia, Aryan Nation, Minute Men, etc. are basically social clubs acting as political pressure groups.

The real militia is THE PEOPLE!

Oh, some bonus information for you - California's definition of its own militia, and a few basic code sections.

MILITARY AND VETERANS CODE
SECTION 120-130

120. The militia of the State shall consist of the National Guard,
State Military Reserve and the Naval Militia--which constitute the
active militia --and the unorganized militia.

121. The unorganized militia consists of all persons liable to
service in the militia, but not members of the National Guard, the
State Military Reserve, or the Naval Militia.

122. The militia of the State consists of all able-bodied male
citizens and all other able-bodied males who have declared their
intention to become citizens of the United States, who are between
the ages of eighteen and forty-five, and who are residents of the
State, and of such other persons as may upon their own application be
enlisted or commissioned therein pursuant to the provisions of this
division, subject, however, to such exemptions as now exist or may be
hereafter created by the laws of the United States or of this State.

123. Whenever the Governor deems it necessary, he or she may order
an enrollment to be made by officers designated by the Governor, of
all persons liable to service in the militia. The enrollment shall
include any information that the Governor may require. Three copies
thereof shall be made: one copy shall be filed in the office of the
clerk of the county in which the enrollment is made, and two copies
in the office of the Adjutant General.

124. Enrollment shall be made upon such notice and in such manner
as the Governor may direct. Every person required by such notice to
enroll who fails or refuses so to do is guilty of a misdemeanor....

Reference: http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=mvc&group=00001-01000&file=120-130

If we have, say, a major earthquake or other emergency, Governator has the authority to call up every able-bodied person to help with recovery, rescue, cleanup, security, etc.

[Cleita]

75. This is under government though.

Private militias like Blackwater are a new wrinkle here. Also, to use the Germany example again, if it happened here, it would be because the Republicans and Democrats and maybe even Libertarians and other political parties had their own militaries. When those parties came into power they would become the state police and armies while they were in power, but those other private militias would exist even fighting in the streets with each other. We don't have that here yet, but if there are private corporations competing with each other in the future, could the same happen here?

[slackmaster]

76. The unorganized militia can form ad-hoc organizations as needed

I can assure you that even without direction from Arnold Schwarzenegger, there will be no looting in my neighborhood after a bad earthquake that disrupts government services.

Private militias like Blackwater are a new wrinkle here.

Ever heard of Letters of Marque and Reprisal?

Also, to use the Germany example again, if it happened here, it would be because the Republicans and Democrats and maybe even Libertarians and other political parties had their own militaries.

That's one very good reason to support the right of THE PEOPLE to keep and bear arms.

[Cleita]

79. Hey I'm not an anti-gun person here so point your muzzle elsewhere,

however, I interpret the citizen's militia to be one where everyone does their civic duty in one of the armed forces for a couple of years of their lives like we used to have.

[slackmaster]

80. That would be the National Guard or the Naval Militia

You can certainly do that, but we also have the Unorganized component who are just as much part of the militia as they are.

[arcadian]

52. ICE Detention Facilities

http://www.ice.gov/pi/dro/facilities.htm

Alphabetical List of
Detention Facilities

Located in
(State)


Aguadilla Service
Processing Center

Puerto Rico


Aurora Contract
Detention Facility

Colorado


Buffalo Federal
Detention Center

New York


El Centro Service
Processing Center

California


Elizabeth Contract
Detention Facility

New Jersey


El Paso Service
Processing Center

Texas


Eloy Contract
Detention Facility

Arizona


Florence Service
Processing Center

Arizona


Houston Contract
Detention Facility

Texas


Krome Service
Processing Center

Florida


Laredo Contract
Detention Facility

Texas


Queens Contract
Detention Facility

New York


Port Isabel Service
Processing Center

Texas


San Diego Contract
Detention Facility

California


San Pedro Service
Processing Center

California


Tacoma Contract
Detention Facility

Washington

[katty]

60. harbinger? i'd say we are almost there--this stuff is never

covered by the presstitutes 'as alarming'tactics....just biz as usual in a 'deMOCKracy'

[slackmaster]

73. Reading the word "harbinger" always makes me hungry for some reason