Should fines be based off of the individual's income, as opposed to a set rate?

[ZombieHorde]

For example, a hundred dollar fine would be replaced with a fine equaling 0.25% (or whatever) of your annual income.

A 5,000 dollar fine would be replaced with a fine equaling 12.5% (or whatever) of your annual income.

I am not sure what the percentages would be, I based the above on an annual income of $40,000.

[Joe Chi Minh]

1. Sure. Like tax.

[itsrobert]

2. Why don't we just follow the rules/laws and don't worry about fines

I have never been ticketed in 30 years of driving. People should obey the laws.

[ZombieHorde]

8. Laws + free will = crime

You may not commit crimes, many people may not commit crimes, but crimes will be committed by some.

[backscatter712]

3. I think they do that in some countries - Finland?

There was a story of a multimillionaire who got caught speeding in his Ferrari and ended up paying millions of dollars for a fine on his speeding ticket.

[AngryAmish]

4. OK, what if your income varies

A five year floating average?

My income varies, a lot. Some years I lose money, other years I make a lot. Which year would they select for me?

(And, btw, everything is about me. mememememememe)

[ZombieHorde]

5. Your five year floating average idea may work.

[wuushew]

6. Not just fines....fees should also operate this way

n/t

[treestar]

7. Yes, the penalty should be staggered, or the poor are punished more

for the same thing.

[DoctorMyEyes]

13. Was just talking about this a few days ago

Was just talking about this a few days ago with a co-worker. We were agreeing that if fines aren't "sliding fee scale" then justice isn't being administered evenly. A $1000 fine can ruin one person's life, while another person wouldn't feel any real discomfort.

Fines aren't like jail time. Everyone values their freedom, and rich and poor are hit fairly evenly with a set prison sentence. But, even with jail sentences they sometimes take the persons life expectancy into consideration.

[treestar]

17. Exactly, which is why rich people driving their Porsches or whatever

laugh at the number of tickets they get.

[Dangerously Amused]

9. There has to be a minimum fine, otherwise the unemployed pay nothing

...and the argument will be made that there is "no incentive" for them (other than a moral one) to obey laws that require only a forfeiture based on income. But I see your point, that there is also no real incentive for the rich to obey laws that require only a forfeiture - and the counterpoint treestar made above, that the poor are punished more for the same crime.

What I would like to see is more creativity in sentencing, i.e., finding a way to allow violators to see how their unlawful behavior negatively impacts others on a personal and meaningful level. But then you will always have the defense attorneys whining because it will make their clients "feel bad."

No easy answers.

[ZombieHorde]

10. a minimum fine

The minimum fines could be based off of a $5,000 (or so) annual income.

[wuushew]

11. A negative income tax would solve that

Every live citizen would be entitled to some livable amount of income greater than zero.

[Turbineguy]

12. They do that in Finland I think.

I remember standing in line at the Courthouse behind a young guy who had thousands in unpaid fines. It was completely beyond his ability to pay to the point of bizarre and pointless. I don't know what he did but it seemed to generate lots of fines with interest and penalties on top.

He could not make some sort of deal, like "I will pay you all the money I ever make for the rest of my life if I can do something besides stand here in line for the rest of my life." He would have probably let them break his legs to satisfy them.

I realize that's not how the justice system which needs fresh supplies of meat on a daily basis works.

An income based fine system (with a minimum set level) would be more just, but very un-republican.

[Boojatta]

14. Does "fines" include charges for overdue library books?

If the book is just one day late, then the fine shouldn't be more than the cost of the book.

[ZombieHorde]

15. the fine shouldn't be more than the cost of the book

Agreed.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

16. Yes. But does that mean prison time should be based on your general health??

[ZombieHorde]

24. An interesting idea, but

Annual income is easier to measure objectively than life expectancy, in most situations. All of a sudden, poor people will be expected to live to be 120 years old, while rich people will be expected to die any second.

[quaker bill]

18. How I actually do it

I set fines under guidance that sets a base amount on the nature of the infraction. Then two economic factors are considered.

First is the financial incentive for non-compliance. If the violator broke the law to make money and realized a profit, then the fine is raised to take away this incentive. These are generally knowledgable violators.

Second is the "ability to pay". Under circumstances where the violator has little income or assets (is poor) the fine is reduced in accordance with the ability to pay. In these cases it is generally true that the violator had no financial incentive to violate and the infraction is related to negligence or being uninformed of the law.

[ThomWV]

19. No, no, and Hell No!

It is one of the most absurd ideas immaginable. Let me make one harsh example and see if you can spot the problem. Let us say that we extend the policy so that income is the basis of all legal punishments. So a rich man kills someone, is found guilty and should receive the harshest penality, death, but a poor man commits the same crime and gets a $5 fine? See the problem? I realize that you are talking about fines but all that you are doing is reducing the degree, not the existance, of the problem.

[Snotcicles]

21. WFT? A twenty over speeding ticket, lets say is a $1000.00 fine.

To a guy making $20,000.00 a year it could have a severe impact on him and his family.
To a guy making a million dollars a year it's chump change. It probably won't even slow him down.

[ZombieHorde]

25. Your being silly.

[Kansas Wyatt]

20. Debtors Prison without the responsibility of housing and feeding the prisoners.

That is exactly what this fucking country has come to with our glorious REPUBLICAN imposed U. S. CORPORATE GOVERNMENT.

It doesn't matter if it's government fines or debt to avoid homelessness. Our U.S. CORPORATE GOVERNMENT has made it very clear that 'We The People' do not matter, because the CORPORATIONS are worth more than millions of citizens. Never mind the fact that CORPORATIONS should not be worth more than any one citizen.

The U. S. CORPORATE GOVERNMENT owns each of you, and they will work you into a grave. Better pull yourselves up by the bootstraps and work harder.

[pampango]

22. Fines could be based partially on the damage the offence does to society

and partially on the capacity of the offender. Now it is based too much only on the former, but should not be based solely on the latter either.

[ZombieHorde]

27. My idea was based on both.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

23. No. Income is not the same as wealth, and measuring wealth would cost too much.

Fining someone who was until recently poor but has just gotten a well-paying job more than an unemployed multimillionaire is clearly iniquitous.

And it's far harder and more expensive to measure wealth than it is to measure income (one of the reasons the latter is what is taxed).

[ZombieHorde]

28. unemployed multimillionaire

Unemployed multimillionaires still make money off of interest. The system we have now has already actualized your fears.

[gravity]

26. Different fines depending on the tax brackets

I don't think a percentage will be the best way to administer a fine, because there can be huge variations at the extremes in income.

[ZombieHorde]

31. My idea has nothing to do with tax brackets.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

29. No. The Question Is Under The Flawed Assumption That The Roles Of Fines Is That Of A Deterrent.

The main use of fines is for revenue so that the police force can be paid to protect and serve in the first place. Under that concept, every violator should be subject to the same fines because regardless of their incomes they are contributing equally to the need for the law enforcement.

[ZombieHorde]

30. Fines Is That Of A Deterrent

I never made that claim.