Saying NO to a toddler v. "That behavior is unacceptable"

[AngryAmish]

I have a young tot at home who is getting into more and more stuff. When she starts pulling on electric cords etc. the natural thing to say is No and then move her away and distract her with something else. Well according to the parenting book saying no is wrong thing to say to a child, even one this young (11 months). We are supposed to say "That behavior is unacceptable". My wife is a rule follower and she has taken to saying this to our tyke sometimes.

My position is "that behavior is unacceptable" just becomes the new no. This is more a question of how language changes and how certain terms become unacceptable.

I get it. Negro is now unacceptable when before it was the preferred term. Retarded is now developmentally disabled. Queer was acceptable, then unacceptable, then kinda acceptable.

I use the preferred terms because one tries no to cause offense.

But language is a weird thing. I don't decry political correctness for calling people by what they try to call themselves.

[YOY]

1. I know you're trying to make a greater point but even if you do the aforementioned for a child.q

Her first words will still include a resounding "NO!"

[TexasObserver]

2. It's bullshit. Sort of.

When a toddler is about to stick the fork in a socket, NO! is the word.

When a toddler is about to stick a fork in a dog, NO! is the word.

When a toddler runs loose in the mall, NO! is the word.

NO! works because it's fast, and that's what you need when you're watching a toddler.

Explaining NO! comes after getting the intercession NO! brings.


Kids already know they aren't supposed to do IT most of the time, whatever IT is. Being two is about challenging limits, about investigating, and about repeating NO! back to mommy and daddy. You can change the language, but the process is timeless.

It's good to explain things to kids, but first you have to stop them from doing whatever it is they are about to do, or doing.

[Kansas Wyatt]

4. I agree

And explaining things does make the biggest difference, when trying to get kids to behave better.

[TexasObserver]

Yes, the explaining is important. It can come later.

"Do you know why Daddy yelled 'NO!' when you did that?"

You cannot have them running out into traffic as soon as you take them out of the car seat and set them on the ground.

First time parents tend to believe if their parents had simply used the magic words, things would have been better. The dynamic of little ones testing limits is ever present, no matter the language.

One of my sons has a little boy who is 22 months old, and he's a ball of energy. His parents are great with him, and very measured, but he gets wild and does things that push their limits, several times daily. And if they miss their nap, watch out! Chucky's comin' to town!!

[Atman]

10. NO has a clear, distinct meaning to a toddler. A five-syllable word doesn't.

NO is strong and forceful and shows authority (that might turn off some DUers right there).

"Unacceptable" is a touchy-feely bullshit way of making the parent feel like they're treating their child with respect. Toddlers aren't looking for respect. They're looking for limits.

Just say NO.

.

[JuniperLea]

40. Maybe I was just a stuttering mom...

But I always said, "no no no!"

And you are spot on about kids knowing right from wrong... when I was Den Leader, and again as Cub Master, I started every year by getting a poster board and colorful markers. I sat the boys down and asked them what our rules should be, and I wrote them all down as presented... with minimal grammatical corrections only. I never had to add one rule of my own. They knew what was right.

Yes, stop, drop (to their level) and explain.

Unacceptable is a good word for teens and pre-teens, but for toddlers... they'll just look at you like you have lobsters crawling out of your ears.

[ikojo]

3. Wow, do the expert think hearing no will hurrt their widdle

self esteem? Even if a middle class American kid goes through childhood without hearing the word "no" he/she will definitely hear it once they enter the workforce. Bosses don't care about self esteem.

[Happyhippychick]

8. It has nothing to do with self-esteem, it has to do with effectiveness.

If you just keep saying "no" to a kid, they tune it out. If you give them a word that describes the problem, such as "hot!" for a stove or "ouch!" for a cactus then they begin to understand why you are preventing them from touching.

[Atman]

11. They won't tune it out if they're sure of what it means.

If you say "NO!" and then let them do it, then yell "NO!" again as they keep misbehaving, then sure, "No" becomes meaningless. But if you are consistent with your follow-through, NO means NO and they get to know it pretty quick.

.

[Happyhippychick]

19. I'm not saying they don't know what it means, I'm saying it's ineffective.

If the child doesn't understand why something is a "no" then they will keep doing it until they get it. When my daughter wanted to touch the glass on the oven door, I told her "hot!" and she still wanted to touch it. I told her to use one finger and touch lightly, she did, she saw it was hot and she never touched it again. (it wasn't hot enough to burn, it was just warm). I never had to worry about it again because I took the time to explain it to her and let her experience it for herself.

I believe that "no" is very good for emergencies such as running into the street or approaching a dog but as a general rule I think it's ineffective for long term use.

[Lex]

12. If you keep saying anything, even "that behavior is unacceptable", they tune it out.

nt

[Happyhippychick]

16. I agree, that's why I prefer "hot" or "ouch".

[surrealAmerican]

25. That is the point.

You need to save the "no"s for the extreme, dangerous situations. "No" is for when they are running into traffic. When they use crayons on the wall, it's "those are for using on paper." When they reach for your coffee, it's "that's hot". When they reach for the cat it's "kitty needs to be touched GENTLY, let me help."

[Caliman73]

43. words in general are ineffective

Just the other day I saw a lady give a wonderful explanation to her toddler son as to why he should not be standing in the shopping cart. Very informative, very accurate. He didn't give a shit because it was just words. She did nothing to intervene and he kept right on doing it. I don't believe in saying "NO" just for the sake of saying something, but if you say, "NO, don't touch the stove!" move to get the child away from the stove, then explain why in the same movement, the child will get the message. More than words are needed to instill discipline.

Granted, my son is fairly mellow, but it got to where I did not even have to say anything in certain instances. A look was all I needed to get compliance. Now at 14 it is challenging and I need to enforce the rules with incentives and disincentives like spending time with friends or losing the PS2. Words are never enough.

[Rebubula]

5. No

That word is not spoken in the houses of my nephews.

We were out at dinner (a hellish time for me - the kids have no discipline) and my 3 Y.O nephew started sticking his hands in grandma's scotch to get an ice cube. I see this; remove his hand and say NO. He starts crying and climbs into his mother's lap and sobs for about 5 minutes.

This is not uncommon in the kids I see routinely.

A strong no and a gentle (yet firm) smack on the hand or rear will do wonders. I am NOT advocating spanking (though I have no problem as long as it administered with verbal backing), but children do not have the language skills to understand some dangers or appreciate outcomes of actions.

[alcibiades_mystery]

51. You shouldn't hit kids...ever

WTF is wrong with you?

[blogslut]

6. Negative reinforcement

Thing is, with toddlers, the word "no" becomes all they hear and they have to wonder is all there is to this world is "no".

I was more of an explainer with mine. For example, if she tried to touch a hot stove, I would say "That's ouchie!" or "That burns!"

If she tried to pull kitty's tail, I told her "That hurts kitty. You don't want to hurt kitty. You love kitty."

If she was about to climb up on something where I was pretty sure she was going to take a fall, I would ask her "Are you being careful? Is that careful?"

Just the other night, my nephew was about to grab a bottle of nail polish. I quickly told him "That's Auntie's nail polish. That belongs to Auntie."

He got the message.

[Atman]

14. What you are saying is fine...and should be preceeded by a firm NO...

...THEN the explanation.

BTW, as for your nail polish example...I defy you to find me a toddler who understands the concept of "...that belongs too..." So what? To a toddler, everything belongs to everyone. Their concept of ownership extends scarcely beyond their blanky and anything that happens to be in their hands at the time.

.

[blogslut]

23. Okay

Then again, my little one is now 21 years old and seemed to turn out just fine. When I said nephew, I meant nephew -once removed. He is my niece's son. He is three and he understood exactly what I said.

[Maine-ah]

47. my 2 year old gets ownership

if she has something and I say "that's mama's" she hands it right over. She'll even bring stuff to me, such as my slippers, or a pen and hand it to me and go "mama's!", I am also not the only person she does this with. She understands a lot more than you would expect a 2 year old to understand.

[LWolf]

39. The reality is that both positive and negative reinforcement are necessary.

Research tells us that there should be a 5-1 ratio of positive to negative. We have a group of people who do research, and collect research, working with our school to help us turn our ratio around. Believe me, 5-1 on the positive side can be difficult to attain in middle school ;).

The bottom line, though, is that shaping behavior requires reinforcement from both sides.

"No" is effective for the very young because it is instantaneous. If not overused, it should get an immediate response, which will prevent the child from causing harm or being harmed. The explanation is added once the behavior is stopped.

[blogslut]

44. Don't get me wrong

I said "no" when raising my child. I just made a deliberate effort to not have it be the only word to come out of my mouth. I was also a big proponent of distraction tactics, as mentioned above, in someone else's post.

In the end, I'm just damned lucky that I was blessed with a sweet-natured child. Comparatively, I was wild little kid.

[LWolf]

50. Between

my profession, public education, and helping raise my grandson, who was abused in his early years and has ODD, I've spent an intense amount of time trying to balance the "nos" with the "yeses," the distractions, etc..

That balance is NEVER easily accomplished, and it's not the same for every kid.

I think that most parents do their best with what they know, and I'm glad that all of us managed to make it to adulthood with imperfect parenting.

Love them, pay attention, think, stay open, and do our best; what more can we do?

;)

[Bigmack]

7. Another country heard from....

Before I had kids, I had Labrador retreivers... hunters.

The dog training books suggested a lound "Ehhh...Ehhh....Ehhh" for behaviors you wanted to stop, like pissing on the neighbor's leg. Short and attention getting.

After the kids were born, I/we never used it for things like toilet training or the usual disciplinary situations, but it sure stopped the kids from running into the street or the like.

We never hit or spanked the kids and normally tried the longer, more descriptive and proscriptive explanations when disciplining the kids, but the Lab technique worked very well for us when it was needed.

[LWolf]

38. I have that same sound for my dog, and she responds.

It's a warning sound. Interestingly, when she was a puppy and we did obedience training, we were told not to say "no," lol. To teach them with praise, etc..

So I used the "warning sound" to warn her off when necessary.

Does the sound used really matter to the dog?

[hlthe2b]

9. Oh, please.....

Sorry, but a child that young is not sophisticated enough to understand "that behavior is unacceptable." The truth is that at that age, simple commands are very important, just as it would be to any developing young animal, puppies included. Sorry if that offends anyone, but an 11 month old's ability to grasp the needed behavioral change is not much different than that of any other young mammal.

[BanzaiBonnie]

15. Treat your children like dogs

And treat your dogs like children.

Consistency on both counts.

[RobinA]

21. My Favorite

is when people say to toddlers, "You shouldn't set your baby brother on fire, it will hurt him. You don't want to hurt him do you?" The kid could not care less whether he hurts someone, empathy is a developmental stage and a toddler ain't there yet. Appealing to his desire not to hurt someone is like asking him to drive a car.

[DS1]

13. that's way too long to tattoo on my knuckles

:hide:

[gollygee]

17. What I've read is to replace "no" with what the child *should* do

I've read a lot of parenting books and I've never read that toddlers should be told, "that behavior is unacceptable." Toddlers aren't going to understand that. What I *have* read is that they should be given more information than "no" provides so they know what they should be doing. So like "play with something else" or "sit in your chair" or something. The idea isn't that "no" destroys self esteem as much that telling a toddler what he/she *should* be doing is more effective than a vague negative statement.

[Happyhippychick]

20. Yes. My daughter used to bang on the glass door with a spoon, I gave her a rubber spatula and let

her bang away or I let her use the spoon to bang the couch.

[pipi_k]

31. It's kind of funny what kids will view as toys....

Soon after my grandchildren were born I made up a little bag (which later became a large box) of stuff that I thought would amuse them when they came to visit.

Measuring cups and spoons, chenille bendy things, clothespins, large buttons, dolls, Beanie Babies, crayons and coloring books, little furry pompoms that stick together, blocks, and just about anything else likely to catch a little one's attention....

They loved it.

They're now 7, 5, and 4, and when they come over, the entire box of stuff is dumped out on the floor and they're in the middle of it all having a blast.

I remember as a child that one of the biggest treats was being able to go to Grandpa and Meme's house and playing with the big basket of wooden clothespins out in the back hallway.

And when I was a kid, my mom had this huge lilac bush next to the house that was so huge there were pathways through it. That bush was an airplane, a boat, a jungle, and so many other things. Who needed REAL toys?

:loveya:

[Recursion]

22. When possible make the kid feel like he/she is choosing what to do

As in, "would you like to take the red bear or the blue bear with you to bed now?" rather than "Go to bed."

[Frances]

26. Excellent suggestion

Making a positive statement gives the child useful information--and, very importantly, makes you feel better!

When my 3-year-old grandson started running in a crowded parking lot, I yelled, "Stop!" I save those loud, one-word admonitions for immediate, dangerous situations.

[mod mom]

18. For what it's worth, I found the "1,2,3 Magic" method to be very effective.

1-2-3 Magic - Easy-To-Learn Parenting Solutions That Work From Dr. Thomas Phelan

Welcome to 1-2-3 Magic - home of the bestselling parenting books and programs that have deliveredeffective parenting solutions to millions of families worldwide. This simple, yet powerful approach to disciplining kids has won rave reviews from parents, educators and professionals alike.

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1-2-3 Magic program to bring practical, easy-to-use discipline techniques to families and educators.Spanish Editions are also available.

http://www.parentmagic.com/

MY KIDS ARE NOW 11 AND 12 AND I STILL UTILIZE IT, AS DID MANY OF MY STAY AT HOME MOM FRIENDS. AS LONG AS YOU STICK TO YOUR GUNS AND AM CONSISTENT, IT REALLY WORKS. IF YOU ARE INTERESTED, I'M SURE THE BOOK IS AVAILABLE IN LIBRARIES OR CAN BE PURCHASED USED FOR UNDER $8.

[madokie]

24. Funny you should ask that

we have a 20 month old grand daughter and I'm not sure she's been told no in any forceful manner at all and shes a good girl. Our Christmas tree has all those ornaments on it and she didn't go for it and start pulling things off or any of that like she remembered from last year that she wasn't supposed to be doing that. I know I can say to her things like I'm not sure you want to do that or momma or daddy or gramma might not like you doing that and it always seem to satisfy her and she moves on to the other thing she'll be doing. I find a no honey you shouldn't be doing that to work very well so far. I said to my step son that whenever he comes up to a situation where he doesn't know what to do to just ask himself what I'd have done and then do right the opposite.

[ensho]

27. when a teen, 'that's not acceptable', will get you nowhere

No is a good word. along with tone of voice and volumn it is direct and to the point.

and should be used on a toddler to teach said toddler to listen and think.

[NashVegas]

28. The Problem Isn't the Word, "Negro"

The problem is using that song, as Barack Obama is about to take office, is nothing more than a mean-spirited, racist, political swipe with the intention of undermining a US president.

Nine months ago, when it was used during the primaries and had real context I would have considered it fair game. Even if it had been used in the general election, I would have considered it fair game. The reason is that the original attack line was less about Barack Obama and more about white people who were promoting him as a candidate by saying or implying voting for a black president now was going to wash away our past sins.

That argument is now moot. To dredge it back up now, using the arguments serves no purpose other what I wrote in the first line.

[Bill McBlueState]

37. wait, you mean this thread isn't really about raising children?

:think:

[NashVegas]

42. The *Thread* Might Very Well Be

But I didn't think the OP was. I think the OP missed the point of, shall we say, calling something "unacceptable behavior" in the first place.

[moc]

29. At that age (11 months) the most effective strategy is distract/redirect.

Seriously, don't over think this too much. At 11 months, they are still pretty much little automatons - doing whatever seems to be the most self-gratifying at the time. Sure, you can say "No!" or you can say "that behavior is unacceptable" but neither makes a hill of beans worth of difference in changing child behavior. Remember, the kid is 11 months old - s/he has neither the cognitive skills nor the impulse control to really "get it". That kind of self awareness doesn't really emerge until closer to the age of 2 years. At this point, redirect/distract but also get the offending/potentially dangerous stuff out of the way. Use gates. Put things in the attic.

For what it's worth, all parent language becomes meaningless when there's no follow through. If you say "no" but don't stop the behavior or follow through with consequences, then "no" becomes meaningless. Likewise, "that behavior is unacceptable" will become meaningless if you don't follow through with consequences. With that said, however, this issue is irrelevant for an 11 month old for the reasons described above.

[pipi_k]

30. Not all parenting books

are written by sane people.


Whether a parent says "no", or "that behavior is unacceptable", it's all the same because the REASON why the kid isn't supposed to be doing something isn't being addressed.

So the kid is still left with wondering WHY he can't do something.

Even I, as an adult, will often wonder why something can't/shouldn't be done. Like when I read someplace one time (years ago) that you're not supposed to put a whole egg into a microwave.

No reason...just "Never put an egg into the microwave". So because there was no reason for not doing it, I had to do it just to find out. OK...now I know why you don't do it.

I'd go with the "No...ouchie" thing. Or "hot". Or whatever. Because if a kid is, for example, touching an electrical cord and is told "That behavior is unacceptable" but he sees adults doing it, to me it's sort of like saying to a kid "Do as I say, not as I do" when he sees his mom or dad plugging or unplugging something.

Age appropriate explanations...


Edited to add that redirecting should always be a part of that strategy as well... :)

[JitterbugPerfume]

32. the word NO

with a light smack on the diaper worked with my kids

now don't go accusing me of child abuse < I have never smacked a diaper hard enough to hurt them, just enough to get their attention and to associate the word NO with something uncomfortable


they are all grown now and they all stll love me so I couldn't have been that bad of a mom with my diaper whacking

[TlalocW]

33. No is fine

I also think you should be squirting her with a water bottle like you do cats when they get into the plants.

TlalocW

[Igel]

53. I've done that.

To my toddler.

You use the tools you have. When "no" doesn't work, meaning simply "I don't want you to do that" and quite ignorable, and "that behavior is not acceptable" (meaning simply, "don't want you to do that", and both longer to say and no less ignorable), you get their attention. If I'm a few feet away and watering plants, I spray him. He looks at me, I say, "Stop that", and he chooses how wet he'll get.

If this thread were about "bad" versus "no", I'd have no quibble. Well, maybe with the large words directed at small children, some writers really should read up on first language acquisition, but in principle I like the distinction between "you're a bad person" and "your behavior is wrong".

[undeterred]

34. I tried saying "That behavior is unacceptable"

to my 8 month old dog. He ignored me.

[Gwendolyn]

35. You're right. The way language develops is an odd thing.

Especially corporate word speak. Every few years the consultants come swooping in with the latest word playbook, manipulating the meaning of words, applying them as behavioral labels. Each 2-4 years, employees are given 3-day seminars wherein the new "action" words are supposed to provide epiphanies and make them all work harder and better. It's laughable but at least it keeps otherwise unemployed writers off the streets. :)

Words like "moron" and "imbecile" are interesting. Today we casually throw them out at anyone we dislike or disagree with, but at one time these words were used to assign a specific, official level of intelligence to a person.

Edited to add: 70's flicks are funny and somewhat embarrassing to watch. You'll hear words like "Negro" or "Women's Liberation" in the dialog. It seems like another world. Women today probably find the word "liberation" a little dramatic. I think this is where you're going with your post? Why language changes?

[FedUpWithIt All]

36. My fourth child is 11 months. I say a simple and understandable "No!"

He responds to it and usually stops. I have little patience for "experts" who tell me how to raise my children when they have never met them. I have four kids (11mos-16yrs) and i have to adjust and shift daily to accommodate their INDIVIDUAL needs and personalities. No ONE way is the "correct" way to raise kids. You'd think the "experts" would have caught on to this fact by now.


:hi:

[Eric Cartman]

41. It helps with language development.

Plus, you are going to laugh your ass off the first time she says it to you!

[Ioo]

45. Beat them!!!! shake them like a British Nanny!!!! That'll learn 'em

Just kidding, say NO

[indie_voter]

46. I said "no" to my toddlers then redirected. They're older, and now I explain why,

But even then it devolves in to "no" after tiresome debates over how I just don't understand. ;)

[mnhtnbb]

48. I always found that "no" accompanied with an explanation, then redirected worked the best

with my boys.

No. Why not? It will break. You'll get hurt. Somebody else will get hurt. And so on.

It's not just an unacceptable behavior. Eventually, (much later) they'll understand that behaviors
have consequences.

At 11 months, you want to stop the behavior and "no" can be learned easily and is effective and
will be understood no matter who (babysitters? siblings? teachers? grandparents?) says it.

It's really important that they understand if "no" is said, that they cooperate and stop whatever
is being done. You have to be consistent in saying "no" as well as enforcing "no". When they get
that concept, you can take them anywhere--within reason--as long as they aren't tired or hungry.

[GreenPartyVoter]

49. "No" was part of my younger kid's name for years. "Branny-no-no" because we had to say it to him so

often. "Hot danger" "sharp danger" "Ouch danger" Any one of those could be his middle name. :P

[NeedleCast]

52. Oooooooo! Parenting Thread

This will end well...