If it wasn't religion, it would be something else.

[cali]

the trouble with blaming religion for the evils of the world, is people act as if religion were somehow divorced from human nature. It's not. Religion is only a problem because of human nature.

[seemslikeadream]

1. no it wouldn't

[cali]

2. ah, as usual, you've expressed such an eloquent

refutation. Are you seriously suggesting that religion isn't a byproduct of human nature?

How silly can you possibly get?

[seemslikeadream]

4. I did not say religion is a byproduct of human nature

you are the one that is confused, my dear

[cali]

18. Try reading, Just try it.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

5. yes it would...

people suck...religion is used as a cover for what they would do under some other cover...ask the communists who slaughtered so many who were 'atheists'.

sP

[seemslikeadream]

9. .religion is used as a cover

What other more powerful excuse would there be

[ProdigalJunkMail]

26. there may be none...

but if it wasn't religion...try nationalistic fervor...extermination of a problematic group...need for resources...destruction of political adversaries...

take yer pick...

sP

[LanternWaste]

52. Self-delete

Self-delete

[Idealism]

3. Definately

Greed is the bigger problem in the world than anything else, even organized religion. What makes one pastor think he needs to preach to 30,000 people? The money. There should be limits on how many people can belong to one religious institution, because otherwise we allow money to hold sway over our spirituality. I know it will never happen, separation of church and state, and all.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

13. The Love of Money is The Root of All Evil...hmmmmmmmm

where have I heard that before? :thumbsup:

[HeresyLives]

6. Well, it's what we've been TOLD

is human nature. But then we're told a lot of hokey things.

[cali]

15. It's not what we've been told. It's evident in every corner of human history

[HeresyLives]

36. No it's not.

You have a very limited view of history.

[cali]

42. Really? Name a culture in which religious beliefs don't exist?

Name just one in the entire history of the world.

[NeedleCast]

7. Yup, some people will always find a reason to hate

or to find fault in other's belief systems.


It would be hard to prove, but I'd bet that people who act in bigoted ways because of religion would act in bigoted ways for another reason, if religion didn't exist.

[trotsky]

8. Of course the one thing religion brings to the table...

is the "ability" to say that your tribalism is sanctioned by the supreme being of the universe. No other human-made institution can claim that kind of authority.

[seemslikeadream]

11. the supreme being of the universe

ooops there it is

[SidneyCarton]

29. And no one has ever used the irrefutable force of "reason" to justify their intolerance?

[Fovea]

10. Religion, for the purposes of our discussion

is a system of social control.

There is already something else, as it were, because our society has multiple interlocking systems.

consumer debt, social studies as taught in public school, contraband punishment,
nationalism.

these are all systems of social control.

I believe the gold standard of which is Marijuana prohibition.
It has absolutely no raison d'etre based on other policies regarding intoxicants.
It is there to see how much brutal stupidity we will unquestioningly accept.

[wuushew]

24. Religion has an indefinite lifespan and massive resources.

In that respect it is similar to a corporation.

The bigotry of one man dies with him, but an organization like the Catholic church has been affecting people and governments from its position as an arificial construct for two millenia.


Collective hate is more synergistic and harmful than that of the one or many individuals.

[Bill McBlueState]

12. I'm all in favor of testing that proposition

to the extent possible.

[Lucian]

14. Me too.

[MercutioATC]

20. Amen!

Whit might happen if we eliminated the single most powerful force that tells people that to be different is to be feared and persecuted?

It's an extremely unpopular thing to say, but organized religion is more harmful than all of the DU bogeymen (Republicans, global warming, election fraud, government conspiracy, etc.) combined.

[Orsino]

16. And if it were something else...

...that something else would quickly be codified as religion.

We are fundamentally tribal, and seem to need the us/them dichotomy. We also have amazing powers of creativity and rationalization, which drive us to build gods who hate the same people we do.

Religion is a symptom, not the cause.

[cali]

17. Well said. That's exactly right.

[Runcible Spoon]

19. Does every "deep thought" you have on the toilet deserve its own OP?

:shrug::hurts:

[MercutioATC]

22. OMG!!!! Cali is clogging the tubes of the internets!!!11!1

I'm series!!


Lighten up, Francis...

[cali]

25. hey,

are you the little board nanny who has governance over what's posted? No? What a shame. Tough shit for you, dearie.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

46. heh. heh.

:thumbsup:

[racaulk]

61. !

:rofl:

[LeftyMom]

67. Apparently.

:rofl:

[Bill McBlueState]

21. that may be true

As an atheist, I could concede the point that the net impact of religion on the human condition is zero. In other words, religion is just a cover for human nature and neither makes the world better nor worse.

For me, the more important question is whether any of the gods described by the most popular religions actually exist. If, as the lack of evidence indicates, the answer is no, we owe it to ourselves to be honest about that. A useful falsehood is still a falsehood.

[cali]

27. I don't think religious faith is about falsehoods.

I tend to think that it's hardwired into the majority of human beings. And until humans change, that won't.

[Fumesucker]

35. If what you say were true.. That religion is hardwired

Then all populations all over the world should be roughly equally religious.

This is not the case, some societies are over 90% religious others are around 15% religious.

The inevitiable conclusion is that religion is primarily cultural.

[cali]

41. Please provide some evidence of what you claim.

What is true is that religion is universal. All cultures have religions. And that goes back to pre-history.

What society is "15% religious"?

[wuushew]

56. Sweden has a pretty healthy level of non-belief

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism

[Fumesucker]

66. Nice map, I hadn't seen that before, thanks. n/t

[JuniperLea]

37. Yes, humans are drawn to myth and cults

Like moth to a flame. As long as there have been human beings, there has been the creation of Gods. And with the creation of each subsequent God, there was the proclamation that all before were based on myths and cultism.

[Bill McBlueState]

38. The central claim of just about any religion is that at least one god exists

If religious believers think that there are gods, but there aren't, then they believe something false.

Anyway, I think the body of your post is true: Human beings are hardwired to have religious faith. But like a lot of the things we're predisposed to believe, the proposition that gods exist seems to be false.

For a less controversial example, we're hardwired to believe that when something's position changes relative to the horizon, it's moving. The realization by early astronomers that this is not the case for the Sun is thought of as progress. If, like the Earth-centered universe, belief in gods is also an artifact of the way our brains evolved, we'll be better off at least trying to overcome that.

[JuniperLea]

40. Perspective is everything... eom

[Odin2005]

65. Religion isn't wired into our brains, it is a side effect of various cognitive biases.

The main one being our tendency of anthropomorphizing non-human entities. This is because in pre-modern societies our epi-phenomenal "social reality" of purposeful, conscious agents was not distinguished from the actual physical reality. This kind of thinking leads to a kind of "naive animism", that that is the basis or the notion of gods, spirits, etc.

[madmom]

23. I personally think religion is a crutch.

[SidneyCarton]

28. We would find some new intractable problem to kill each other over.

Religion is merely a convenient medium to focus our mutual hostilities.

[JuniperLea]

30. If we removed religion from government

At least we'd be free from "God says I'm right" or "The Devil made me do it." There would be no "My Supreme Being said this belongs to me" or "My ancient texts supersede your ancient texts."

Bush sure used this bullshit a lot. His Calvinist "God chose me to be president" stance is particularly nauseating.

Of course humans will find another way, no question. But I think it would cut down drastically on religious bigotry. People should be able to worship as they please, or not at all, without worry.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

31. It's always about power and who wields it. Religion is just one institution power.

Religion, like government, corporations, can be, but usually aren't, benevolent.

Achieving and retaining power demands that some people are thrown under the bus. Usually, it is the weakest members of a society that feel the bus wheels.

[Taverner]

32. Partially true, but....

But

But

BUT!!!!

I give to you the holy war.

Sure wars have been fought over land, gold and even sex

But you never see such numbers as you do in a holy war

[cali]

34. uh, WWI and WWII

were not holy wars.

[Taverner]

43. For the Japanese and Germans it was

And one might argue the USSR

[cali]

44. baloney. For Germany it was not chiefly about religion. It was about expansionism

Same for Japan. And it certainly wasn't about religion for the USSR.

[Taverner]

47. The Emperor was a God to the Japanese

IT was a holy war - in that "God" told them to kill for the Empire of the Sun

The NAZIs were full into the deification of Hitler, and it was a jihad as well. I have a book to reccomend to you: "The Twelve Year Reich" It gives you a grounds eye view of life under the Reich.

As the war went on, the Fatherland and Hitler were synonymous, and they were whipped into religious fervor.

[cali]

53. you prove my point with regards to Germany

It certainly was a religious type fervor, but it was not about any religion. If a religion isn't there, humans act as if it were in order to dress up naked ambition. Germany's ambitions weren't cloaked in the guise of religion.

[Taverner]

54. I think Sam Harris hit the nail best on the head

He doesn't use religion, but the concept of faith itself (belief without evidence) as the cause of this abhorrent behavior.

[MineralMan]

33. Yes, but religion has one thing that most other human

endeavors do not: an all-powerful entity that can supposedly kill everyone or punish them eternally.

It is that authority that lets religion become so dominant and self-justifies all sorts of vile behavior by its followers.

[Iggo]

39. Well then I wish it was something else.

[Dragonfli]

45. We are not hardwired for hate

It is often the result of bad software.

Language as a virus does indeed target the worst parts of our nature, Calvinism is a good example of this.

Other software programs encourage the better parts of our nature, like Buddhism.

If there is a hardware inclination that you call "human nature" it would be more fruitful to learn which part of the brain it comes from, as we are born with evolving - competing "natures" the lesser evolved lizard portion can be quite nasty, the later grown cerebral cortex is more prone to reason and reasonable actions.

When reason prevails over the baser instincts, arguments for cooperation do quite well.
When the reflexive responses of hate to fear prevail, one acts like a nasty little lizard.

You should face the fact that any religion that appeals to this reflexive fear/hate part of our earliest nature would causing a great deal of harm.

I of course was not born with an innate belief in a tooth fairy that would spite the easter bunny or vice versa, so perhaps I am a bad example, with a flawed nature, incapable of understanding the obvious.

You were born with such beliefs eh? .....intersting. Perhaps I should learn from what is said to be a more common state.

[Taverner]

50. Dude, you hit the nail so hard on the head we won't even have to paint over it

[Taverner]

48. Give any other example of a 'logos' if you will, that is more real than the physical one

The Holy Warrior can always say, after you tell them how this war will kill billions and turn the planet to a smoldering corpse, that "I have FAITH that God will deliver us."

Religion gives people an excuse to abandon logic for hate. Hence, Religion is much more dangerous than the simple scheming of some power mad asshole. Not to say the two don't work hand in hand

[Ian David]

49. Fucking Otters. n/t

[alarimer]

51. In this case, the blame can be put entirely on religion.

And they are fighting over that same patch of ground that each religion claims as theirs.

It's funny because everything in those holy books of theirs is entirely made up. So it follows that everything they believe about each other is also false. There is no such thing as a chosen people or a covenant if the Bible and the Torah are made up mythologies (which they are).

[Vanje]

55. Do you actually ever "win" any of these arguments?

or are you just in it for the stirring.

[Mari333]

57. its human nature to shit in our pants

but we learn to use a toilet.

[cali]

58. bad analogy

and it seems to be human nature NOT to shit in our pants, as a matter of fact.

[Mari333]

59. I dunno , my grandson is an expert at shitting in his pants

:)

[TEmperorHasNoClothes]

60. which came first, the chicken or the egg

Most wars have some root in religion. Most LGBT prejudice comes from those professing to be religious. All of the gay bashing I've received has come from so called christians.
From where I sit, religion gives some people an automatic out for agregious behavior.

[etherealtruth]

62. Couldn't agree more

There is always something to separate "Us" from "Them" ... Its not like areas where the people share the same religion are any more peaceful than other regions ... just as it is not true to say that atheists are a less warring people than those of faith.

People are people and greed and avarice are sadly, very often, part of the human experience.

[Odin2005]

63. I disagree.

Religions and religion-like ideologies such as Marxism makes legitimizing evil acts easier because they demand irrational faith, rational criticism is condemned.

[melm00se]

64. religion is the excuse

not the cause.

[Soylent Brice]

68. i politely disagree, sort of.

religion is a crutch

humanity used it when we were primitive to explain the unexplainable. then the obvious happened: someone figured out you can use it to control others. it was all downhill after that. for all of our achievements and advancements, for all of the knowledge we have gained to explain the once unexplainable, we still limp through time on the crutch that is religion. bad habits die hard, and religion is one of the most addictive habits there is.

religion isn't to blame for everything, but can you imagine would it would be like to have stephen hawkings as president? or all leaders of the countries of the world?

a world ran by facts, and the scientific method, rather than hokey mysticism and dillusional self-righteousness... one can dream i suppose...

[TWiley]

69. Ok, a virgin just got sacrificed to a volcano ........

Human nature created the religion, and the religion justified the murder. They are inseperable.

[anonymous171]

70. Religion can attract cultural reactionaries.

Cultural Reactionaries will do anything to justify their hate.