Obviously, we need to pay engineers a LOT more money!

[hedgehog]

We get into a lot of trouble because we have MBAs (not liberal arts majors) making technical decisions instead of engineers. It finally struck me this morning in the shower why this is so.

The MBAs (not liberal arts majors) end up as execs making from 2 to 200 times as much as an engineer. Who is the CEO going to listen to, some senior engineer making $100,000 or a VP worth $1.2 million annually plus stock options? Clearly, the guy making more money knows more about drilling for oil, flying jets, mining coal, the need for a new sewage treatment plant or whatever. And just look at the engineer - he or she is wearing Dockers, for crying out loud!











This post is in no way influenced by the fact that I, my husband, one daughter and one son are engineers (with another son and daughter at engineering school.)

Edited to properly place the blame. I should have recalled that the liberal arts majors end up trying to convince the children of MBAs of the importance of history, art, literature, etc.

[no limit]

1. I didn't know liberal arts was the way to become a millionare. Shit, wish you told me that before

Are you being serious?

[hedgehog]

3. Well, only a very few liberal arts majors make it big. There's

only so much room at the top. Having your MBA from Harvard is a good start:

[Romulox]

An MBA is not a "liberal arts" degree. Perhaps your confusion begins here... nt

[hedgehog]

8. I stand corrected!

:blush:

[FarCenter]

9. MBA are not likely to have engineering Bachelor's degrees

From Stanford University's faq -- http://www.gsb.stanford.edu/mba/admission/college_seniors.html
They are more likely to have Bachelor of Arts degrees than anything else.

As a college student, is there a preferred undergraduate major that I should choose to prepare for my MBA education?
There is no "ideal" undergraduate major for business school; therefore, choose a major that you find interesting and engaging.

MBA students have majored in everything from economics to religious studies.

Since business school curricula will assume a solid foundation in quantitative skills, you may want to take at least a couple of classes in economics, math, statistics, and/or science (i.e., courses that will sharpen your analytical reasoning skills).

If your schedule precludes you from taking these courses, you might consider taking evening or distance-learning quantitative courses from a local university or college.

While in college, you may wish to pursue an honors project or do a senior thesis.

While the topic you choose may not seem to be directly relevant to an MBA, it can demonstrate to an admission committee that you possess intellectual vitality and initiative.

Detailed information for college seniors considering business school can be found here http://www.gsb.stanford.edu/mba/admission/

[Dappleganger]

12. My husband has a degree in engineering management, the MBA equivalent.

Quite honestly it's not really opened as many doors as he'd hoped, but that's ok since he is really much happier working with the shift people out on the floor, solving problems hands-on. He is MUCH happier with blue collar folks, period.

[FarCenter]

21. A Masters of Engineering Management is unlikely to get you into top management

Particularly since manufacturing has fallen on hard times in this country.

However, spending 40 hours a week for 40 years with people you don't like is a hard life.

Spending it with people you like is worth a lot.

[Romulox]

13. Did you mean to respond to my post with this non sequitur? An MBA is not a "liberal arts" degree,

fullstop. All "masters" programs have as a pre-requisite a four year degree. That doesn't mean that the four year degrees possessed by masters students therefore originate in the school where the masters student is currently enrolled.

[FarCenter]

18. MBA is a professional degree, post Bachelor's degree.

But most student's entering Business School have Bachelor of Arts degrees and not Bachelor of Science degrees in an Engineering major. Some do have engineering degrees and others do have Bachelor of Science degrees in other majors, but the curriculum in BS majors doesn't typically allow the scope of electives needed to be used as a pre-professional degree for the MBA.

Basically, it is the same question as do lawyers have liberal arts degrees? -- and the answer is that they generally have a BA before they enter law school to get their JD.

More data from a Business Week article:
http://www.beatthegmat.com/mba/2009/11/20/which-undergrad-major-is-most-preferred-by-the-top-mba-programs

When averaged, this is what I found to be the percentage breakdown in accepted students for these schools’ incoming class of 2011:

Business/Business Administration/Economics                    34%
Engineering/Natural Sciences/Technical Disciplines/Math       33%
Humanities/Liberal Arts/Social Sciences                       25%

Before we analyze these very interesting results, I would like to point out some also very interesting exceptions to these averages. Far and wide, most schools seemed to hover around these averaged percentages. However:

•Harvard Business School had Humanities/Social Sciences at 40% of their incoming class, and Business Administration at 26%.
•Stanford GSB also placed a heavy preference on Humanities/Social Sciences, with a whopping 47% of their 2011 incoming class majoring in those fields. Business got the short end of the stick with a measly 17% of the pie.
•Wharton also leans towards Humanities/Social Sciences, giving them 42% of their slots; Business only got 24%.
•MIT (Sloan) likes Engineering/Math (44%) more than Business (20%).
•NYU (Stern) was interesting, because they had a pretty even distribution across the board: Business (26%), Social Sciences (20%), Economics (20%), Engineering/Math/Science (18%), and Humanities/Arts (16%) all had similar numbers.
•Carnegie Mellon (Tepper) was a shocker in its preference of science and engineering majors—50% of their 2011 class favored these disciplines. And, if you think that’s a chunk, it’s nothing compared to their 2010 class (57%), or their 2009 class (60%).

[Romulox]

You seem to have misread article you've quoted; a "BBA" is not the same as a "BA"

The article you quote says that the majority of MBA students have a Bachelor's of Business Administration degree ("BBA"). Please don't confuse this with a Bachelor of Arts degree ("BA"). :hi:

[FarCenter]

27. The Bachelor of Arts or Bachelor of Science in a Business major is usually a terminal degree

There is mostly no such thing as a Bachelor of Business Adminstration. Its usually a BA or BS in Finance, Marketing, Accounting, Management, etc as the major.

A BA or BS in a business major doesn't usually help in getting into a top Business School's MBA program unless you have an outstanding GPA plus a great track record for 3 to 5 years at a company after getting the BA or BS.

[Romulox]

29. Then perhaps quote an article that *agrees* with the point you are trying to make (such as it is)?

I have no idea what it is you are trying to argue about, but you aren't doing it well. :hi:

[n2doc]

2. Oil co engineers make darn good money

I don't know where you get your 100K value but senior oil co engineers that I know make multiples of that amount.

[hedgehog]

5. Aha! but how much money do oil company executives make?

It's all relative!

[Romulox]

4. The hallucinations seem to starting early this morning. Look at the colors, children!

The liberal arts majors end up as execs making from 2 to 200 times as much as an engineer.

[Fumesucker]

6. No.. It's the MBAs that end up as executives..

Liberal arts majors become oilco execs.. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Brickbat]

7. I think you're thinking of MBAs, which are the root of a lot of problems in business today.

IMNSHO.

[w4rma]

11. Perhaps our business schools need reforming. (nt)

[Dappleganger]

10. My husband (a mechanical engineer) would agree with you.

He's often complained about the downfall of the companies he's worked for being that the top brass wasn't from the engineering side. True, companies may not grow as large with such HUGE stock offerings, but they would at least be more responsible and responsive.

[hedgehog]

14. My son has a BS Chemical Engineering/Mechanical Engineering

and a Master's in Mechanical Engineering.





He's thinking of getting an MBA.





We've accused him of going to the Dark Side.




Be warned - he's pretty smart. Who knows what will happen if he get hold pf an MBA!

[Dappleganger]

16. He may be hugely disappointed.

Is he in R&D? If so, he should go for PhD. If he's in manufacturing, we are not convinced that MBA or Master's in Engineering Management is a good payout due to the huge cutbacks in middle management/restructuring (this is in the bio-pharma industry). My husband has been on both sides so that's our view. Remember, companies aren't hiring from within the industry (or the company ranks for that matter) like they used to. If he can get the company to pay for his MBA, all the better. At least he'll get something good out of it.

Bottom line, don't expect rewards/advancement from the company he works for after he gets the MBA. He'll probably not experience any benefit unless he jumps to another employer. Good luck to him!

[flamin lib]

15. The other problem with being an engineer today is the H1B visas.

Seems a Bachelor's in engineering can make more as an assistant manager at a Sears outlet store than practicing his/her trade.

That sucks.

As for Liberal Arts degrees, I remember 40 years ago being teased by the EEs and MEs, "Engineers build things, Liberal Arts grads ask if you want fries with that."

Seems we're all in the same boat now . . .

[pnwmom]

17. You're an engineer?

Now I know why you're always so sensible, hedgehog.

I'm not an engineer but I'm the wife of one and the mother of another.

I love engineers!

[hedgehog]

19. Me too!

:fistbump:


It's fun at family gatherings. When the nurses get sick of all the technical talk, they start in with the medical stuff to gross us out!

[Dappleganger]

20. Isn't it strange how it runs in families??

Dh and his three younger brothers all have degrees in engineering, as does his dad.

[TNDemo]

22. Mine too.

Husband, son, daughter, three nephews, two nieces...

[hedgehog]

28. Doomed in the cradle!

[NotThisTime]

33. Don't tell my kid that, he thinks maybe he might go into law & break the cycle or chemical

engineering and keep the cycle going LOL... A child of 2 engineers...

[tammywammy]

23. No wonder I've always liked you

At work it's probably 75% engineers and my dad's an engineer. I (heart) them.

[FSogol]

24. As an engineer, I wholeheartedly agree. n/t

[ecstatic]

25. I think personality/temperament may play a role too

I went to an engineering school and many of my peers didn't have the business-personality required to make it up the ranks in a huge corporation. Of course, many did (frat boys, etc.).

[gkhouston]

26. No, we get into trouble because technical decisions aren't being made on technical merits.

They're being made based on quarterly and annual profits, with little to no regard for long-term consequences. Engineers understand that given a long enough time frame, the shit will hit the fan, and you'd better plan for it. Business types make hay while the sun shines and pay little heed to the five-year, ten-year, or twenty-year worst cases. We're now paying for that short-sightedness, and will be for decades to come.

[hedgehog]

30. I like that phrase - it's the most succinct version of Murphy's Law

(A.K.A.Third law of Thermodynamics) I've ever seen:

The shit will hit the fan!

[NJmaverick]

31. K & R!

[Goblinmonger]

32. How about paying the people actually doing the work?

My brother was a mechanic for Northwest Airline and would complain quite a bit about the engineers. They would come to tell him how to do something and he would point out why that wouldn't work. The engineer would tell my brother to just do it because he knew more (insert your "who gets paid more" discussion here). After doing it the way the engineer wanted, it didn't work and ended up being done the way the mechanic, the one who works with the actual product daily, knew it needed to be done.

[JCMach1]

34. +1 and listening to them which didn't happen in this case...

[hedgehog]

35. Clearly, your brother was dealing with an engineer who had gone to the Dark Side.

I had a similar situation as a Maintenance supervisor on a back shift.

The day time guy, a real player in company politics, left a work order for a repair with specific instructions. The mill wright got into it, then showed me that the instructions were no good, that a different, more elaborate repair was required. It was as if we were told to ass window washing fluid instead of changing the flat tire. I left a note for the day guy explaining the situation and outlining the needed repair. The next night, I received instructions to proceed with the original faulty instructions. This went on for a couple days, then finally the night millwright and I said screw it, and he did the needed tear-down and fixed the machine.

Never did get any feed back on that one.

Guess why I always ended up on back shift.

My husband is considered one of the best engineers at his company. His secret? he talks to the people on the line.