I want to say something about rape and learning to be wary.

[LiberalLoner]

I got raped by a fellow LT in the Sinai. I went into his room wearing nothing but a bathrobe because I was on my way to the shower in our co-ed barracks in the Sinai. I had been in his room many times before, talking about this issue and that, and it was completely non-sexual. I saw no interest in his eyes whatsoever. There were other LTs who hit on me that I had to avoid, but I felt I was safe with Andy. He wanted to talk, he seemed upset about something, so I went to his room and sat on his bed (the only place to sit in the 7 by 9 room). I had sat on his bed many times before. When any of us LT's visited, that's what we did. It wasn't a sexual thing, although I don't expect most people here to understand.

He flipped me over quickly and unzipped and raped me. It happened so quickly and I was completely unable to overpower him. He was much, much stronger than I was. I didn't cry out for help because I knew if a rape or attempted rape were discovered it would be MY career that was over. I had heard just a few weeks before of a rape victim, raped by one of the Fijian soldiers, who was repatriated for psychiatric care beccause none was available there in the Sinai. Her career was absolutely over at that point.

I blamed myself - still do really - for having been in his room with only a bathrobe on. For having trusted him. I guess I put myself in the situation where I could be raped, because I trusted him as a fellow soldier and officer. I didn't see it coming.

I learned something then. I don't trust much anymore.

But I've done some thinking about this and I know that the rape was his responsibility and his alone. I learned to be much more wary, and I guess that was something I needed to learn, for my own protection, but that jerk raped me and when he faces God, it is going to be all on him.

So I understand about teaching young women to be wary and not trust. I get that.

But I also understand that the victim should never be blamed.

If I had a daughter, I would tell her what happened to me. I would tell her to never trust.

[coffeenap]

1. Kick

:hug:

[plcdude]

2. I hope

this is read by others so that we can get by the academic arguments and to the heart of acting wisely but also appropriately holding the perpetrators accountable.

[LiberalLoner]

4. Thank you. I learned the hard way that men are much stronger than I am (at least in terms

of upper body strength) and that I can't fight back effectively without a weapon or training in self-defense.

I also learned that someone can appear to be trustworthy and to be a good person, and underneath, they can have evil intent.

I think there must be some way of warning young women of the potential dangers out there (and young men, too, they get robbed and raped and everything else too sometimes) without saying, "it's your fault if you get harmed." It's a pretty touchy subject though, especially since women have traditionally been blamed for their own victimization, and still are blamed for that in some parts of the world.

[Gormy Cuss]

3. I'm sorry that it happened to you

K & R

[LiberalLoner]

5. Thank you. It wasn't that big of a deal to me, except that I felt so stupid and blamed myself, and

I was hurt that one of my fellow soldiers would harm me, when I always felt I would give my life for my fellow soldiers.

[renate]

10. I'm so sorry

I'm glad the assault itself wasn't as traumatic to you as most of us would assume it to be--but what a horrible thing he did to you against your will. Who the HELL did he think he was?

You would have given your life for him. He betrayed the trust that you had placed not just in him but in your sense of community. I am so sorry. :hug:

[burnsei sensei]

174. It is for this reason that

rape and sexual assault, not the presence of women, undermine the effectiveness of a fighting force.

[Maraya1969]

85. Please don't be so cavalier about it. You may think you are over it

but that type of abuse gets down into our core somehow. I believe in EMD for post traumatic stress disorder. Even if you don't want to go to someone you can read about it and do it yourself.

About 7 years after I admitted to myself that I was being molested, (there is denial for you) I realized that I was still blaming myself but it was at a very deep level that I hadn't thought of before. Basically this "minister" had convinced me in my teens that he was going to save me from the horrible panic attacks I was having and because I needed so much I couldn't stop him from touching me.

I talked about it with friends and even therapists but it wasn't until years later that I really believed that I should have had more control over myself to not "let that happen" If I were stronger it wouldn't have happened and I caused all sorts of pain to my family because I was the fucked up teenager who had "worries" and "frets" and "breakdowns" which were eventually labeled panic disorder, OCD and bipolar disorder. (as I am writing this I have a guilty feeling about what I put my parents through......just sharing that to show how our brains can be our worst enemies sometimes. Once I click "post message" I'll have a nice talk with myself.


Be kind and gentle with yourself.

[badgerpup]

86. ...

:hi:

:hug: (with your permission)

Just seemed the right thing to do...

[Maraya1969]

87. It was. And thank you.

[LiberalLoner]

128. Thank you - I've been diagnosed with PTSD actually - not from that but from events

in my childhood. I did do EMD once. I can't tell if it helped me or not to be honest. I'm glad it helped you. I'm so sorry the minister did that to you. What an awful violation of your trust. He robbed you of your innocence and your faith. I am so sorry.

I'm sorry for the mental illness you struggled with too. I have PTSD and depression and some days are hard. I think life is harder with mental illness.

Wishing good things for you and healing and happiness.

[happygoluckytoyou]

111. sorrier still that YOUR SILENCE in this matter for career will allow him to do it again!!!!!!!

IM SORRY THIS HAPPENED TO YOU... SORRY IT HAPPENED TO YOU BEFORE IT HAPPENED TO THE NEXT JUDY ON THE BLOCK....
THE ONE WHO WILL NOT BE ABLE TO HANDLE IT... THE ONE WHO MAY KILL HERSELF BECAUSE OF IT....

AND BECAUSE OF YOUR CONCERN WITH YOUR CAREER OVER YOUR CONCERN WITH TAGGING THIS ANIMAL WHICH WOULD AT LEAST MARK HIM PUBLICALLY

NOW IT IS UP TO THE NEXT JUDY ONTHE BLOCK TO STEP UP.....

[LiberalLoner]

121. Is your CAPS button on lock or something? I'm sorry I didn't report him too - a couple

of years later, one of my soldiers came to me with a story about a dentist who had molested her. I took her to CID and became involved myself in investigating this. Turns out this dentist had been molesting a whole lot of young female soldiers, using his rank (0-6) to intimidate.

For some reason the Generals on the post wanted it hushed up. CID was saying they had the guy and were going to nail him, and then the next day said they were dropping the case. They said "well, he had really good OER's, he's a good officer and a good dentist."

I fought this for a year and ended up losing my career (a willing sacrifice, I knew going into the fight that is what would happen) and when I went to the press with the issue all of a sudden that dentist and his entire chain of command disappeared. They were no longer stationed there. Don't know what happened to them, but at least the soldiers on Ft. Huachuca were no longer being molested. I no longer had my commission and I went through a whole lot of harassment and pressure and BS, but I felt good about my choice to try to protect the young soldiers there.

I don't feel good about my choice to stay silent at that time about what happened to me. If it happened again today, I would make a different and better choice. On some level, I thought that because it only happened to me, it didn't really matter. I grew up having been molested, and felt on some level it was my lot in life to be raped. But when I saw it happening to another soldier - the one molested by a dentist - I could see more clearly how wrong it was and I did fight.

BTW, what makes you think I came through it just fine and didn't attempt suicide later? I surely did. Didn't do it right though. Just ended up in 72 hour lock down. There are a whole lot of scars I bear from a whole lot of things.

[LiberalLoner]

125. P.S. It's very naive of you to assume anything would have been done about the rapist. Trust me,

I've been around the Army all my nearly 50 years now - nothing would have happened to him, but plenty would have happened to me.

[bobbolink]

224. Anyone who has paid attention to the resports from the Air Force Academy would know that.

All the rapes in the military are a great shame to this nation.

But that the victims are blamed and pay the price..... that is more than shame. It is a tragedy.

[bobbolink]

212. "But when I saw it happening to another soldier - " Isn't it interesting that we can

deny the harm to ourselves, but it becomes so clear when we see someone else suffering?

I was punished for crying as a child, and am not able to cry for myself as a result of that.

But I can sure cry for the suffering of others!

Thank you for having the courage to post this..... I really appreciate it.

Best to you. :hug:

[LiberalLoner]

214. Thank you, Bobbo. I was punished for crying as a child too. Didn't cry at my own mother's funeral

as a result.

[Gormy Cuss]

185. Nice way to blame the victim, Judy.

Have you not noticed that we live in a culture that intimidates rape victims? Are you aware of how much more pressure there is against reporting assaults in institutions like the military?

Sure, it would be better if all assault victims had the courage and stamina to stand up to such intimidation, but back on Planet Reality it's a difficult decision and I will not judge those who could not find the strength and support needed to bring the rapist to trial.

[LiberalLoner]

193. I do understand the frustration - I suppose those of us who have been raped should fight

as hard as we can - but I have to think that since it's no longer okay to blame the victim by saying "you're a slut, and I'll bet you liked getting raped" people blame the victim by saying "you didn't trust the justice system the way you should have."

Interesting how when people make those posts, they never come back to reply - never seem to read the responses - and most importantly never have one word of condemnation for the rapist. Just for the victim.

I see it the way you do - just someone who is predisposed to blame the victim and who sides with the rapist, and is just trying to figure out a socially acceptable way to blame the victim.

I see right through it. Bet that person has never done one thing in their life to support victims of rape or to fight against rapists.

[pinboy3niner]

200. + 100

How lacking in understanding and compassion for a poster to attack a rape trauma survivor like that. Screaming in all caps in a blistering assault that blames the victim for FUTURE assaults AND suicides!

There's absolutely NO justification for that and LiberalLoner certainly does not deserve that kind of abuse.

Too bad the poster didn't read the thread and get a clue before popping off.

[LiberalLoner]

204. Thanks, pinboy3niner. It was just a hit-and-run I guess. Not that it matters, but I wonder

what gender that poster is?

[pinboy3niner]

206. Did it remind you of someone we've met before? LOL

The good thing is that you ARE strong. I've seen you handle this kind of crap before--and you were amazing!

Hang in there, LL...you're doing just fine.

[LiberalLoner]

207. Thank you - once a soldier, always a soldier. :) We ARE strong, aren't we? :) n/t

[Common Sense Party]

6. Yes, he and he alone was guilty. Undeniably.

Just like you, I am teaching my daughters that there are sick people out there, and you have to be careful. Situational awareness.

No everyone is sick, the vast majority are normal, but you have to watch out, because you never know who the sick ones are.

[LiberalLoner]

8. Yes. This is how I interpreted what you were trying to say. I "got it" because of my unfortunate

experience. I guess I posted in the hopes of kind of bringing people together to an understanding of this complicated and emotion-ridden topic. I understand why you are feeling misunderstood and frustrated, and I understand the emotions of people who are sensitive to women always (it seems) being blamed for their own rapes.

It's just a darn hard thing to talk about.

I posted because I'm hoping to heal that rift here and hoping that people will stop fighting now. I think it's too easy to misunderstand on the internet and to have hurt feelings.

[Common Sense Party]

13. I'm terribly sorry that happened to you.

No one should have to endure that.

If we lived in a perfect world, no man would ever do that to another human being.

Unfortunately, we don't live in a perfect world.

And we can all learn from the experiences--and, yes, the mistakes--of others, and we can teach others, including our children, to watch out for those dangers that exist in this imprefect world.

I guess that was what I was trying to express--and failed miserably.

[Dorian Gray]

99. You are a kind

and good person, especially to be concerned about bringing people together in understanding.

[Cleita]

7. They need to know not to be in a situation where it would be easy for them

to be raped like you were. Sure, it's not your fault and he was someone you trusted, which makes this even harder to endure. I'm sure most of the men in your unit would not have committed this act of violence on you but you found the one that would and you made it easy for him with your innocent trust.

I found when I first went to work in my early twenties that if I was in a corner or closet somewhere, whether getting supplies or filing or getting coffee that sometimes one of the men would grope me or make remarks with sexual innuendo. It was also happening to fellow female workers. This was in the early sixties and there were no laws about sexual assault then. If you complained to personnel they told you to suck it up and enjoy it. We women kind of banded together in the ladies room compared notes and made a pact to get a fellow female worker to come along with another when they needed to get into one of pockets of opportunity. It cut the groping and sex talk down. It was just a common sense thing to do to protect ourselves from unwanted advances.

[LiberalLoner]

9. That was some smart thinking and action on the part of you all! Kudos! n/t

[Hello_Kitty]

20. And thanks to feminist activism we now have sexual harassment laws

Because people finally realized that the harassers were the problem and that avoiding it was not the sole responsibility of the victims.

[LiberalLoner]

22. I am grateful for the activists. I have been an activist too at times...just never for myself. n/t

[Cleita]

27. True, but you still need to exercise caution in your everyday lives, which is

exactly why in the workplace today employers now see the need to protect their female employees from assault and rape. It's recognition that there are dangers out there and it's important to remove the opportunity of assault and worse murder and their liability if they should be in breach of the law. Now in countries like Peru, there aren't those same laws in place, so anyone traveling in those places need to exercise more caution. I'm suspicious that this murderer goes to places with few laws and protections for women so he can get a way with murder literally. So if you are in a place or situation like this, then you need to protect yourself. I can't believe you can't see this.

[Hello_Kitty]

43. I can't believe you still act as though women have never heard these things before. eom

[Odin2005]

11. Oh god, that sounds very similar to what happened to a friend of mine a year ago.

My friend was staying at another friend of her's place and the friend raped her. She has Cerebral Palsy and uses a wheelchair so she was completely defenseless. Yet people still blamed her for getting raped. :grr: Ever since her BF and I are pretty much the only men she trusts.

:hug:

[LiberalLoner]

16. Oh, that's so awful. I'm glad she has you for a friend to help her heal. There are

some evil people out there. I read once that there was some survey done in college where a bunch of guys answered that they thought it was okay to rape women if they didn't get caught, or that they would do it rather if they didn't get caught. That made me really horrified and sad at the state of relationships between men and women.

I spent just about my whole life trying to repair what I saw as a very broken relationship between men and women in the U.S. I went into the Army partly to show that I was willing to sacrifice my life just like the men were - because I saw it as unfair that only men are called on in war to lay down their lives. Or at least that's how it was when I was a child. Not anymore. But I went into the Army in large part to try to make things between men and women better and more fair.

Sometimes I feel so much despair and hopelessness about things ever getting any better.

[Odin2005]

28. I bring up that study a lot when posters deny the pervasive misogyny in our culture.

The key thing in that study is that the word "rape" is never used, in order to prevent participants from reacting to the word itself rather than the act. Apparently to a lot of men "acquaintance rape" isn't rape. :puke:

[raccoon]

112. "Apparently to a lot of men "acquaintance rape" isn't rape. " ITA. nt

[seabeyond]

12. perfect. your post was perfect, with how i see it.

But I've done some thinking about this and I know that the rape was his responsibility and his alone. I learned to be much more wary, and I guess that was something I needed to learn, for my own protection, but that jerk raped me and when he faces God, it is going to be all on him.



i also look at it as something to learn from. i dont see any responsiblity in the rape. but can damn well bet gonna learn something from it. be more weary. and why not give that weary to our kids.

thank you

and sorry for your experience.

[LiberalLoner]

17. Thank you. n/t

[KansasVoter]

14. Thanks for sharing your story! Good Advice for ANYONE!!

[redqueen]

15. "never trust"

There's the real lesson.

[LiberalLoner]

18. Yes. And it's a sad lesson to have to learn. n/t

[Caliman73]

29. It is an extremely tragic one to have to learn and pass on.

My wife and I are having a daughter soon. I have 2 sons. I know that we will have to teach our daughter to use discretion and judgment and to "not trust" but I just think that it kills humanity to have to do that. I teach my eldest son and will teach my 15 month old to never disrespect women. I just think it is a shame that teaching boys/men to respect women is not universal.

I am sorry about your horrible experience.

[AnArmyVeteran]

88. You can trust some people who you know would never harm you.

Surround yourself with loving, genuine, caring people and your chances of being hurt again would be greatly reduced. You have to have faith in some people or loneliness can sometimes become overpowering. I wish you well. Peace...

[raccoon]

113. I'm afraid so. IME, there are many men who think when they're alone with a woman,

in her house/his house, the woods, wherever, they think it's open season....on her. And they think they're entitled to sex if they want it, regardless of what she wants.

Of course, there are also many men who DON'T think that way--but there's no way of telling. Sometimes a guy can come across as nice, or even passive, quiet, and a Casper Milquetoast...but then when he's alone with you...WATCH OUT.

WHICH IS WHY IT'S BEST TO NEVER TRUST.

[LiberalLoner]

119. Exactly. I think that sense of entitlement is what drives men to rape more than anything - think

about that guy in Pennsylvania who walked into the health club a couple of years ago and opened fire trying to kill as many young, attractive women he could. He was doing it out of resentment that he wasn't getting enough young tail. He felt he was owed the life promised him by porn - of sexy young beautiful women constantly at his beck and call, a whole parade of them with no other purpose than to serve all his needs and then go away when he wishes. With no needs of their own or desires of their own.

I think many men in our culture have been brainwashed by something - maybe porn, maybe popular culture, maybe by their buddies bragging about nonexistent conquests - into believing young women OWE them sex. Whenever the men want it, however the men want it. And men get very angry when some young women say "no" and turn them down, and decide they will just take what they feel they are owed.

I think if we want to stop the rape culture, we have to stop the sense of entitlement that some men have. And right now our culture is completely going the other way - treating women more and more as objects to be mistreated and scorned. And what troubles me is that some young women are going right along with it. "Oh, it's so cool to take my boyfriend to a strip club and let him get lap dances...I'm so liberated!" "Oh, of course I'll do a sex act that leaves me torn and bleeding and in pain the first date - otherwise he'll never give me a second date! And I like it, I really do! Because all sexy girls are supposed to like it and I want to be sexy because that's the only true measure of my worth, so I have to pretend I like it!" "Oh, I bought my six year old a pole dance, never too early to start learning necessary skills in being a woman!" "It's so empowering to work in a strip club and to have some clients on the side who pay for sex!"

I'm not making this stuff up - go on message boards where young women hang out and I swear this is th4e kind of stuff you will see.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

181. our culture .....

Yes, so true... looking at comments on YouTube or Yahoo or other social forums is really depressing. Contempt and inability to see females in anything but a sexually objectified light. Rampant ignorance.

Combine that with total omission of non-sexualized, accomplished women from the cultural conversation (for example, Nat. Women's History Month was a total non-event in the mainstream culture.), and the result has GOT to be a dehumanizing view of women, and a female trend towards taking on the hypersexualization, seeing themselves as commodities, and believing that negotiating within that framework is their only point of power. To feel as if they have some impact in their world, there appears to be no role imaginable other than sex object or incubator. Imagery and ideas about girls and women are incredibly shallow and limited--bimbo or mommy --, offering very little to spark positive, empowering dreams. From that, it's no surprise that teen pregnancies in the US are off the charts.

The subject of MALE responsibility for their own behavior is never even discussed. ONCE, I heard a Public Service Announcement on AirAmerica radio encouraging parents to teach their boys that the images and attitudes surrounding women in media are not how women want to be treated.


Here, a group dedicated to raising awareness that MEN must change.
http://www.standupguys.org/


Thank you for this thread, LL.
we ALL, men and women, would do well to teach awareness of male responsibility for their own behavior.

[Truth2Tell]

183. I don't buy that.

Ultimately any healthy loving relationship requires trust.

I think the real lessons are to practice taking more time to develop trust. Practice REALLY getting to know people before you begin to trust. Learn to question your own initial judgments of people, and not to overestimate your own ability to read people.

But don't close the door to trust for good. That is a "lesson" that I fear limits one's ability to live a life filled with love.

[redqueen]

194. Have you been raped?

I'm just wondering if you've been able to do that. If so, I'd like to know how.

[Truth2Tell]

223. No, I have not been raped.

But I have had trust violated in very damaging ways.

I think you can come to actually trust some people in life, and yes I have done that. For me it usually takes years. Not to get all Zen and whatnot, but I think first you have to trust yourself.

I don't pretend to understand what it does to you to be raped. I have never lived that. And I am not judging those who have come to believe that you can never trust anyone. I just disagree.

[pinboy3niner]

205. Distrust may be as much a psychological reaction as a conscious choice

A trauma survivor--whether a rape victim or a combat veteran--learns that the world is a hostile and threatening place. Armed with that newfound knowledge, the brain often adapts by developing new survival skills which may even overreact to traumatic experience.

In the same way, undeserved guilts (i.e., "It's my fault") often can persist for a very long time because it is extremely difficult to rationalize away something that is less a rational decision than a subconscious emotional and psychological reaction.

[LiberalLoner]

208. +1,000 you hit the nail right on the head with that post. Great insight. n/t

[hamsterjill]

19. Wisdom in your post

Never bad advice for young women to be watchful and cautious.

And although I can appreciate your comment about blaming yourself, I would also comment that if you told him "no", that NO means NO, and at that point, the blame ENTIRELY rests with him.

I'm glad you have survived this trauma as healthy as you have. I wish you well.

[LiberalLoner]

23. Thank you. :) I told him no a whole bunch of times and physically tried to stop him...n/t

[pinboy3niner]

21. Thanks for sharing your story, LiberalLoner

You are helping to promote understanding.

Another aspect, of course, is the prevalence of sexual violence toward women in the military--women being abused by their supposed "brothers-in-arms."

We just got a Vet Center where I live, and they are hiring a counselor (I expect it to be a woman vet) to deal specifically with the trauma of women vets who were sexually abused in the service. At least they are finally recognizing the need.

Love & Peacer,
pinboy3niner

:hug:

[LiberalLoner]

25. Thank you friend. It's good to see you :) n/t

[CTyankee]

63. Garry Trudeau has been dealing with this issue in some of his cartoons.

It has been helpful and illuminating.

There are humanists, feminists, progressives out there fighting for YOU and those who have suffered like you.

Take care and feel safe. There are many of us who are behind you 100% and will support you. I can only say how sorry I am that your country...our country...let you down when you needed its protection the most. That is a scandal and a crime...

Please, take care...know that WE care...you are not alone...

[Missy Vixen]

24. I am so sorry about what happened to you

You're right. It's all on his head. He made the decision, and carried out a sexual attack on a woman who couldn't get away from him.

There are no words.

:hug:

[Tumbulu]

26. I am sorry that this happened

but the older I get the more I see it as simple biology. I watch my chickens and my sheep. We are all animals. It is not your fault, and in a way it is not even his fault. Animal bodies are complex and it is silly to pretend that we are not animals. I blame society for giving young women the idea that it is at all safe to be with a male alone.

I am sorry that your generation been sold the idea that men are so in control of their impulses. Sadly, like you, in my own life, I have not found it to be the case.

[Odin2005]

30. Wow, what a disgusting post.

"It's biology" is the excuse of the misogynist who defends the status quo by saying "that is just the way it is". No different then the bigots that use junk science to "prove" that Blacks have lower IQs than Whites.

[LiberalLoner]

32. I agree the poster is misunderstanding the true nature of rape - but it's a common

misunderstanding especially among those of an older generation who were not taught any different.

Rape is never about sex. It's about power, about being able to harm someone. They use their penis as a weapon.

In fact, the guy - Andy - who raped me, had a girlfriend right there, in the same barracks. He had sex with her all the time - all of us could hear her having sex with him (she was loud.) In fact he had sex with her that evening after he had raped me in the morning.

I remember being so confused that I felt guilty - I thought I had done something wrong, thought I had betrayed Michelle as if I had stolen her boyfriend. I was just so confused by the whole thing.

But it was clear to me he never wanted me sexually at all. There was absolutely no interest in his eyes whatsoever. I am good generally at reading sexual interest from men. It just wasn't there. He just used his penis to hurt me, not to have sex with me.

[Mari333]

33. xactly. its about control and power.

hugs, btw, to you.

[LiberalLoner]

39. Thank you :) n/t

[Odin2005]

58. I'm actually skeptical of the "rape is about power" claim when it comes to acquaintance rape.

IMO STRANGER rape is all about power, certainly. But unfortunately, IMO, our society tends to only concentrate on stranger rape because looking at acquaintance rape as a phenomenon would force people to admit the underlying misogyny in our society. Indeed, I think the assertion that rape is all about power is a way for society to make rapists out to be "the other", evil, inhuman monsters rather than relatives or neighbors that have been influenced negatively by our misogynistic culture, it is a way of sweeping the problem under the rug because it's too uncomfortable.

[seabeyond]

61. agreed. socially and culturally taught. and an injustice to the issue to create only a monster

it goes beyond that. unless we honestly address it, own it, not be shy about it, then it can never truly be addressed.

[raccoon]

116. I agree. Rape IS about power, but I think it's also about sex. nt

[closeupready]

186. I have always said that our society is misogynistic, and it is.

This is important to remember.

[seabeyond]

37. i responded to poster before seeing if anyone replied. lol. i am so happy to see people reacting

to these comments.

jeezus fuckin christ

[lumberjack_jeff]

42. That post isn't misogynist, it's misandrist.

The belief that men are "simply animals" is an example of the most fundamental kind of sexist hate.

Seabeyond is right, every man who reads that should be offended.

[Hello_Kitty]

44. This doesn't happen often but ITA with you lumberjack.

:thumbsup:

[Dorian Gray]

103. Totally agree

I'm offended at those comments, and I'm a female.

[Tumbulu]

48. I am sorry to be such a clumsy writer and to have offended everyone here

In my life I have tried to figure out how it happens so often and why it is so widespread.

It is not as though it is a 1 in a million thing or anything.

So, shall I as a rape victim go around my whole life blaming all the man completely out of context? It was not my fault, but in my ponderings I try to figure out why the man who raped me did this. He is/was a human being. I try to figure out how to make sense of it all.

The only charitable thing I have come up with is this idea that there is a biological component to it.

[LiberalLoner]

50. I'm so sorry that happened to you. You know I just posted that I thought you

had been badly hurt and had come to that conclusion because of it.

Not all men are bad. Thank God. And not all women are bad. Thank God.

We do all have a very strong sex drive, I think. They say we masturbate even in the womb. What a mystery the sex drive is, and what a magnificent thing it is when used in a loving way.

That's what I hate most about rape I think. That some men use what I consider such a beautiful, sacred piece of flesh, to do harm.

I'm sorry this happened to you.

Rape isn't about sex. It's about wanting to hurt someone, that's all. The man who did that to you didn't need sex. He could have given himself sex. He did what he did because he had hate inside and wanted to hurt you. I'm sorry.

[Tumbulu]

188. Thank you very much- I saw that - I would like to try to clarify a bit more on my clumsy post:

Aggressive sexual type behavior is not at all normal in the farm animals that I care for either. In fact it is quite unusual.

Normal mating behavior for sheep begins with the female becoming fertile which seems to result in her looking for the rams that I try to keep in a separate flock as I have enough sheep already. So the ewes go to the fence that separates them and they call for the rams. The rams generally come over and they spend days and days "talking" to each other in low baa's. They stop eating sometimes and just "talk". Normally when a ram is let in with the ewes he just stands there and receptive ewe's hang around and they all spend a lot of time nose to nose. Days go by like this. The breeding is so secretive many shepherds buy these chalk bibs to put on the rams so that the ewe is marked by something. It is not some rough wild rodeo thing. It is quite unusual among sheep for a male to display aggressive behavior toward ewes and these males are removed from the flock as quickly as possible. These males occur, but not so very often. They create havoc. Normal male behavior among sheep strikes me as very sweet actually. And not so different from other animals.

Border Collies used to only mate within a bonded pair. That meant that one could have a great female that you wanted to breed, but if she had not lived with the male for quite sometime AND liked him very much, no way would she breed. And male border collies certainly never bred unless invited to do so. Now people get around this with artificial insemination.


Temple Grandin wrote in her book "Animals Make Us Human" about how the folks breeding the battery hens accidentally selected for "rapist roosters". Again, not the norm as roosters have a choreographed dance behavior displayed prior to mating that the hen can recognize and respond to. But there is always variation in behaviors and somehow the folks breeding the poor battery hens who can produce an egg a day also picked and amplified this nasty set of traits responsible for making life even more miserable for the poor hens.

I did not know that people did not know that it is unusual for a male animal to be aggressive in this way, but they occur and generally farmers remove them straight away.

I also agree with your very well stated points about the media and societies's capacity to encourage or discourage these behavioral traits. With humans a great deal of our behavior is shaped by culture. That our culture seems to be encouraging male aggressive behavior and calling it somehow "natural" in unconscionable.

I am very sad that my short post may have contributed to this idea.

[LiberalLoner]

191. It's okay. Sometimes on such an emotional topic and one so close to our hearts, we find it

hard to put our thoughts on paper the way we'd like.

What I sensed from your post was a lot of confusion. I understand that confusion. I feel it too. I think that's really the main emotion I felt about the rape - just such confusion. Trying to understand why. Even to this day I still try to understand why.

It saddens me that things seem to be getting worse for women in our culture instead of better. Yeah most of us work now (for good or bad, we have to) but the violence against women is up according to some reports and I swear the cultural misogyny is almost off the wall bad. I mean you watch TV or read the forums and you think the next step is they are going to be making furniture out of leather taken from women they've slaughtered for that purpose.

[seabeyond]

51. thanks for clarifying. thanks for explaining your position.

truly....

appreciate it.

[Odin2005]

57. Oops, sorry for jumping to conclusions!

Many people use biological tendencies as excuses for injustice and to excuse their own bad behavior, so what you posted just accidentally rubbed me the wrong way! ":blush:

[Dorian Gray]

104. I am so sorry

that you suffered. I do think that blaming it on instinct is a sad conclusion that you've reached. Men should be able to control their impulses. The man who attacked you is a horrible human being, but most men will not suffer the biological instinct to rape another human being.

[Dorian Gray]

101. I have to agree

blaming rape on Biology is incomprehensible to me. Human beings can control our impulses. Some choose not to. To even feel the impulse to rape another human being is sick. It's not simply biology.

[Mari333]

31. what????

are you attempting to state that men cannot control themselves, that rape is their nature? please tell me you are not saying this.

[Tumbulu]

52. No, I did not mean that at all

I am trying to figure out why it is that some men rape women at all. I know of course that it is a control/power thing. And that most men do not behave in this way. But for the men that do, why do they do it and what can be done to change the behavior and how do we as a society decrease the incidences of rape. I have not found that simply vilifying the rapists has solved the puzzle of it all.

[LiberalLoner]

53. I think we have a society where we are taught to enjoy hurting women. Look at the movies

with women always being killed and tortured. So much in our society basically says it's okay to rape and hit women.

I like porn. I've watched it all my life practically. But porn these days seems to involve so much of what I see as abuse - hitting, slapping, choking, other things that only cause pain to a female.

I think we are becoming a much more misogynistic, rape-centered culture.

It is our culture that causes what happened to you I think...not basic biology..

[seabeyond]

54. dehumanize. so much of the behavior cannot be, if we see a human. nt

[Mari333]

56. if every woman could kill the man who raped her

that might be a start.
anyway,makes sense to me.

[liquid diamond]

72. Sounds like someone was a victim.

The punishment should fit the crime you know.

[Mari333]

93. its a quote. I was attacked but got away from him. its also reason and logic.

1 out of 4 women have been attacked in their lives.

again, if a woman has the ability to kill him, it will end. they have to know they will be killed if they continue to hurt people.


it kills a persons life forever if they have this happen to them. killing a rapist so he never does it again is a kind thing, actually..

I always carried a weapon in my car when I was young. I would kill someone in a heartbeat if they tried to hurt me now.

whats so hard to understand? its called self defense.

[LiberalLoner]

122. I totally understand. But what I've seen in our justice system is that women get

stiff penalties - stiff sentences - for trying to defend themselves. For some reason, juries always decide it was the woman's fault. Men can get away with shooting a person trying to rob them, but a woman will pay by being in prison for shooting a man trying to rape her.

That's just how our culture is. Shrug.

[Gaedel]

137. There might be other circumstances......

Do the women shoot the rapist during the attempt or during the act, or do they shoot after the fact? If you shoot another during the course of a robbery or an assault, it is self defense. If you chase the robber down and shoot him after the fact, it is murder. You cannot shoot in revenge and have it be self defense.

[LiberalLoner]

139. Maybe that is what has happened, I don't know...n/t

[Rebubula]

110. Sometimes...

...however...rapists should die. Period.

Anyway....if someone is attacking you physically - the blood is on their hands.

[SocialistLez]

158. We wouldn't have a lot of men in this world if that happened. NT

[JerseygirlCT]

34. Wow.

I think we have the right to slightly higher behavioral expectations from humans than from chickens and sheep.

[seabeyond]

36. simple biology. do you hear that MEN. it isnt a mans fault raping.... it is biology

It is not your fault, and in a way it is not even his fault. ...

i hope you are a female and you truly believe this out of ignorance. i can't hardly handle someone on du saying rape is not a guys fault.... just biology. every male on du should be offended.

[Deep13]

195. "every male on du should be offended."

Yeah, thanks a lot! Here I am trying to be good when I was born to be a criminal.

Also, make sure I can't see your money or valuables, because I will be powerless to stop myself from stealing them. And I ate your lunch. It was in the office fridge, so what was I supposed to do?! I hope Grandma didn't put me in her will. I'd hate to have to kill her. Yep, born criminal. No control. Totally untrustworthy just because of a stupid Y chromosome. Good thing there are women or there wouldn't be any civilization at all. (Although, considering that a majority of women voters went for Kerry while a majority of male voters went for Bush....)

[LiberalLoner]

196. LOL I was wondering who ate my lunch, darn it! :) n/t

[jp11]

40. I disagree, we are not animals I'm sure a select few of us people have some brain defect that makes

it more difficult to keep the baser instincts under control but for the majority it is within our power to act and be civilized. IT was completely his fault, he was a filthy POS as is anyone who would do such a thing to another person. I'm disgusted that a man can live with himself after doing something like that and that somehow parents don't get the message through about how to treat other people or that a man cannot see how completely and totally repulsive such an act is.


I'm also saddened that to be 'safe' you have to always keep a part of your mind on the idea that some person might turn on you.

[AnArmyVeteran]

65. That guy violated more than one taboo against a beautiful & innocent person...

That guy violated more than one taboo. He violated LiberalLoner in the most despicable ways imaginable. He violated her physically and emotionally by betraying her trust as a man, as a friend and as a fellow soldier. To be violated by someone you trust leaves unimaginable wounds to one's spirit. All too often those wounds never heal and the victim is affected for the rest of their lives. Even though any physical and emotional traumas seemingly have faded those feelings of fear, mistrust and inadequacy can linger in one's soul for the rest of a person's life. It is sad how the effects of rape are so misunderstood or diminished by society.

It wasn't that long ago when rape victims who came forward to report the crimes were victimized all over again by a ruthless, callous judicial system. Women who testified were victimized again by soulless defense attorneys who forced women to re-live their nightmares again in court, with the woman often blamed for her own rape. In many ways we haven't advanced very far from those days because women still fear coming forward as LiberalLoner was afraid to do. And if LiberalLoner would have reported the rape to her superiors in the military she would have put herself in a position of being victimized again by a largely archaic system that is still dominated by men. It's gut wrenching to realize how many victimized people have to suffer the rest of their lives in pain, shame and guilt, while their abusers live their lives without a thought of the devastation they caused to another beautiful human being.

Rape isn't just a physical act of sexual assault, it's an assault against one's very soul. Their are no greater violations to a person than one that devastates and shatters their spirits.

I wish you well LiberalLoner. You will always be in my prayers...

YASBTM...

[raccoon]

117. " To be violated by someone you trust leaves unimaginable wounds to one's spirit." A keeper! nt

[LiberalLoner]

123. Everything he writes is a keeper. He writes profound posts. :) n/t

[Tumbulu]

209. I wrote in a clumsy way- please look to my post 188 for what

I was trying to articulate.

[lumberjack_jeff]

41. Complete fail.

Human beings can control their behavior. Those who choose not to should suffer the consequences.

[seabeyond]

45. i still shake my head... the hundreds of millions of men that have never raped, get pinned

with this.

why do people say stupid things like this.

(i only use hundreds of millions cause i dont know how many men have been on this planet, truly clueless. tons more than that.)

[ensho]

154. why haven't the hundreds of millions men stopped rapist men?

why do they stay silent? why don't they show anger and make stiff laws?

why?

and don't write back and say some do. why haven't hundreds of millions of them taken action?

[seabeyond]

155. firstly... hard when someone tells me what to or not to write back. secondly....

i think my opinion is well known on du and i have been addressing these issues aggressively and spending a lot of my time talking about. it is not like i am shy about it.

male privilege.... male bonding.... societal conditioning.... everything BUT the stupid caveman day theory that so many men grasp and hold on to for a sense of what a man is, without responsibility or control or character, but all about dominence and dehumanizing females. a sense of superiority and power.

but then i have spent a long time discussing these things ensho. IF you really want to get into it, start a thread, and i will be there.

[ensho]

161. yes I know how you feel and respect you - my comment wasn't

really directed at you but at the men who do nothing, say nothing to other men about rape.

hugs

[seabeyond]

163. lol.... well

i do think you are right on with what you are saying, .... you know. i took it personally, bad me, lol. i learned long ago not to.

:hug: backatcha

[demmiblue]

46. What the fuck is wrong with you?

"...and in a way it is not even his fault." BULLSHIT!

:mad:

[LiberalLoner]

47. Don't know for sure but maybe she has been badly hurt...if I had to take a guess

I would say she got raped before and just came to this very cynical and sad conclusion about men. That's my guess. I don't think anyone who wasn't badly hurt would say this about all men. It's still offensive to all the men out there who are not evil, of course.

[leftyladyfrommo]

59. I'm 61 now and I have to say that women just have to be careful.

It's not right and it's not fair. It's just a fact.

I just don't think its really safe for women to wear some of the clothes they do now - cut way down in the front and the back and skirts that are 3 inches long. Would be ok if you were with your boyfriend or husband of something. But to go out to a bar dressed that way is just so dangerous - specially now that there are daterape drugs.

There some guys out there that just aren't trustworthy. Or that are violent.

Most men aren't. But there are some that are.

And the other thing is that there are also a lot of guys out there mixing it up that are criminals that should be in prison but aren't for a lot of different reasons. I wasn't really aware of that until recently. It's just kind of scary world for women - especially younger women. Fortunately, at my age I am now completely invisible and I have to say I kind of like it that way.

The problem is that you just cannot tell by looking. A guy can seem perfectly OK and then you find out he's not.

[Hello_Kitty]

60. Women aren't raped because of how they're dressed.

Countries where women are required to be shrouded from head to toe have very high incidences of rape. And older women are rape victims all the time.

[AnArmyVeteran]

67. Bill OReilly blamed a girl for the way she was dressed...

But blaming the victim is sadly typical among conservatives. They seem to always be on the side of the rich and powerful.

But you are right about clothing not being a factor. In some societies where almost no clothes are worn I bet the incidence of rape is probably even smaller. It would be interesting to see statistics in different cultures.

[Hello_Kitty]

68. It has a lot more to do with how women are treated overall in a culture.

Where women have more legal rights, autonomy, and respect rape is less frequent.

[seabeyond]

71. autonomy... that is the word i was strugglin so hard for the other day to give to son...

which has nothing to do with your post. but telling him as a teen i want him to gain more and more autonomy as he goes thru high school. it is his to grab hold....

[AnArmyVeteran]

169. It seems that the more religion influences a culture, the more women are oppressed & abused...

Even in the US a lot of churches treat their women as subservient to men. Women are not entitled to the same rights in their churches as men, like the Mormon church not allowing women to be members of the priesthood. And the more fundamentalist a religion is the more oppressive of women they are.

I hope some day religion will become an ancient concept much like we look at other ancient rituals performed by early, primitive man. I love John Lennon's song "Imagine" where he says '...and no religion too'. Note: A bit off topic, but on the 10th anniversary of Lennon's death, Pat Robertson used a flip chart to go over every line of Lennon's song "Imagine" condemning everything in it. He said it was the work of the devil and said it was communism, socialism, etc... Perhaps Robertson should have also listened to Lennon's son "Beautiful Boy" in his last album where he sings about a father's love for his son. You would think Robertson would at least know that the Bible he says he is so fond of also tells the story about another 'father's love for his 'son'. But Robertson is mired in evil. It masks everything in his life. I feel sorry for those who he victimizes with his religion of hate...

[riderinthestorm]

78. Most rapists cannot even remember what their victims were wearing.

They simply see "prey". They are looking for a victim to control and dominate.

- A Federal Commission on Crime of Violence Study found that only
4.4% of all reported rapes involved provocative behavior on the part
of the victim. In murder cases 22% involved such behavior (as simple
as a glance).

- Most convicted rapists do not remember what their victims were wearing.

- Victims range in age from days old to those in their nineties,
hardly provocative dressers.

Utah State University
http://www.usu.edu/saavi/pdf/myths_facts.pdf

[AnArmyVeteran]

170. Good link, thanks...

[seabeyond]

62. "Most men aren't. But there are some that are." i find it exactly the opposite

i find the strong majority of men are trustworthy. in a lifetime i have only found a small number of men not to be.

[leftyladyfrommo]

96. That's what I meant to say. Most men are just fine.

The problem is you can't tell by looking what you are dealing with.

And I will stick to my guns when I say that advertising how "hot" you are is not a good idea.

[meeshrox]

66. If a woman goes to a bar alone dressed with a 3-inch skirt...

the problem is not how she's dressed, it's that she's at a bar alone!

I was fortunate enough in early life to have strong females to teach me a wonderful lesson about how to take care of myself and that I should always be mindful of my surroundings. The first thing is to not let yourself into a situation that can be harmful. I know some situations are unavoidable, but going to a bar alone is not one of them!

I would love it if every girl took a self-defense class before college. I did, there was a rape and defense class at my university and I signed up my first semester. It's the best thing I could have done. They not only teach you how to defend yourself, but how to recognize bad situations before you get into them. I was able to even get out of several situations (one began in the library of all places) and avoid being attacked (random stranger tried to grope me, didn't stick around to find out what else he had in mind, notified police).

My sympathies to any woman dealing with abuse. As a victim of sexual abuse from a family member, I understand how it feels to be violated. It's the most horrible mental anguish imaginable. All my love to such a wonderful and brave woman to come forward and share her story and wisdom!

[leftyladyfrommo]

95. And that may be absolutely true.

I had a good friend who stopped at a bar by herself. She sat at the bar and talked to a man that was there. She is really friendly and easy to talk to. She just thought they were having a friendly conversation. She needed to go and the man said he would walk her to her car. He walked her outside and there was another man waiting outside. They kidnapped her and took her to a motel and raped her. She didn't call the police. She just lived with it the rest of her life.

It probably really is not a good idea to go to a bar alone. Or to ever leave with someone you just met at a bar. They can seem to be just fine and they aren't.

[meeshrox]

115. That's so tragic! My heart breaks for your friend.

Trusting someone so soon is in many people's nature. But, there are other people that know that and take advantage. I wish every woman could be taught how to identify a dangerous situation like your friend's. It doesn't always come to mind when women are alone or talking to a stranger.

[LiberalLoner]

124. I'm so sorry for your friend. And I understand why she didn't report it. People are so

judgemental about this - they have this naive notion that the rapist will be prosecuted and the victim will be helped. It's really truly the other way around - especially in the military.

If you report a rape, trust me, YOU will be the one punished and the rapist will walk away scot-free. Look at the dismal conviction rates for rapists.

About the only rapists who get convicted are blacks (due to prejudism) or ones who go on to kill their victim. The rest of them walk.

And it's becoming more and more common that the victim has to pay for her own rape kit and examination too - more burden on the victim, one more thing that screams "you are at fault for reporting this - don't you know you should shut up?"

[leftyladyfrommo]

166. I was going to mention the cost, too.

I think that women here have to foot the examination bill which is over $1,000 - I'm just trying to remember what I read but I think that was about right.

Yes. There are predators out there. I'm not sure how to weed them out. Maybe talk to their friends. Always stay around other people until you have a chance to find out something about these guys. Certainly don't go out alone with someone you just met.

Its so sad that we have to live like that but we do.

[raccoon]

118. I agree with some of what you say, but I disagree about the clothes--I used to have problems with

some men trying to force themselves on me--and I have always dressed conservatively.

[myrna minx]

64. Not worth it.

::

[CoffeeCat]

73. It's all his fault and it's also a felony...

raping a woman is a felony punishable by long prison sentences. It's not "biology" or
due to urges.

Rape is an act of violence, first and foremost. Although it is a sex act, rape is
committed to humiliate, dominate, violate and inflict damage to someone. Sex is
merely a weapon to inflict deep, damaging pain to a woman.

This is not about someone's urges being uncontrolled. Rape is a very deliberate
act of violence.

The rapists primary goal is to hurt--not to get off.

[liberation]

74. I think somehow what you wanted to say translated horribly wrong into writing...

[seabeyond]

77. you are exactly right. she has tried to clarify. nt

[roody]

80. He committed a crime.

[readmoreoften]

84. Are you FUCKING CRAZY? Maybe I'm just an "ANIMAL" but I think people who blame "biology"

should be on the receiving end of other human animals' wrath.

[BlueIris]

94. No. I'm sorry that you believe the "biology" excuse can rationalize rape.

Please educate yourself on the topic.

[AngryOldDem]

105. Wow.

Seems to me that humans have something animals don't have -- the means to control impulses. Also, a sense of decency and morality, and basic knowledge between right and wrong.

[raccoon]

114. Men ARE in control of their impulses, some of them CHOOSE not to control them when they believe

they can do whatever they want to and get away with it.

"I blame society for giving young women the idea that it is at all safe to be with a male alone."

I sort of agree with you there, due to some of my personal experiences.

[noiretextatique]

151. it is not natural to force someone to have sex

against her/his will. the ability to reason (supposedly) separates us from animals. humans have the ability to control our base instincts and impulses, ergo, rapists CHOOSE to rape.

[Karenina]

177. Unless you're a DUCK!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qP1pQ6-0rbo&feature=related

Too many young male humans behave in exactly the same manner.

[Tumbulu]

210. you are right, and normal animals don't either

I did not realize that most people on these boards know very little about normal and abnormal animal courtship and mating behavior. I farm and obviously spend too much time with my animals and not enough with people. Rape in all species that I am aware of (including insects) is very unusual.

Overly aggressive male farm animals are rare and are usually quickly gotten rid of. Normal males only breed when the female is fertile and invites him to do so.

I was referring to the off type that must be removed from the flock, but absolutely failed to communicate that properly.

[Deep13]

192. For the record, no woman who finds herself alone with me is in danger of being raped.

Thanks for painting us all as rapists.

Just say "no" to major felonies.

I'm sorry that the situation is such that a woman cannot take her safety from sexual assaults for granted. I'm sorry that fathers don't seem to sit down with their sons and explain this. You may find someone attractive to the point of having a raging hard on. That's okay. Think about something else, or privately take care of it yourself if you have to. No woman has a duty to be on the receiving end of it. Real men do NOT hurt women. Rape makes you less of a man, not more of one.

[LiberalLoner]

201. Thanks. That's a really cool post. n/t

[LeftyMom]

219. Go fuck yourself with a rusty chainsaw.

I don't care if this gets deleted, as long as you know that you are an asshole rape apologist and you fail at life.

[undeterred]

35. I'm so sorry.

I was a volunteer advocate for sexual assault victims for 7 years and I saw many situations where something like this happened. In fact, the "stranger rape" was almost unusual compared to any kind of acquaintance rape. Thanks for sharing your story.

And I agree with you about trust.

Specifically, a woman should never let herself in a closed space with a man she is uncomfortable with: car, house, apartment, elevator, taxicab, whatever. If someone on a bus or train is making you uncomfortable, don't get off - tell the driver or call a friend to meet you. Defend your personal space and don't let anyone impinge on it in a way that makes you uncomfortable. And don't do things that make you lose control (like drink or take drugs) unless you have other people around who are sober and looking out for you.

I know of a woman who went to a rock concert with a group of people. She drank heavily as did everyone with her. She couldn't remember how she got home. A couple of weeks later she discovered she was pregnant- and could not remember who she had sex with. Nobody with her that night knew under what circumstances she had sex. Very frightening.

[LiberalLoner]

38. Thank you for the good advice and also for having been an advocate - difficult and important work n/

[riderinthestorm]

79. As a fellow rape crisis counselor and advocate, I completely agree.

Trust your instincts.

If you have even a twinge of anxiety, just leave. Your instincts are very powerful.

Hugs to you. This is important and hard work.

[Mojeoux]

49. This Was NOT your fault for believing a lying Scumbag!

That YOUR career would be at risk is an absolute travesty.

It happened to me in the 70s. He was so good looking,
I couldn't imagine he ever NEEDED to rape for sex.
At the time, my "friends" said it was my fault and it was awhile before American Society came to the light about this issue.

I guess the United States military is still in the 70s.

I've told my daughters what happened to me. They are some smart cookies.
I made the point that even if a boy is gorgeous, and friendly,
it's no indication that he won't want to get power by demeaning a female sexually.

Bless you and I hope you can feel safe.
MJ

[Common Sense Party]

55. .

You just never know...

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Odin2005]

75. Even us men who support rape victims are fight against misogyny?

Quite a broad brush, there. :eyes:

[Starbucks Anarchist]

76. It's the same brush she uses to apply her clown makeup.

[femrap]

147. Don't you think

you should be addressing your fellow males who are causing the violence and rapes against women?

No one seems to go to the root of the problem...the damn rapists and the culture that allows them to continue in causing havoc in the lives of women.

How many rape jokes have you laughed at or simply just :eyes: and then said nothing?

These violent males must be stopped....but there isn't the political will to do so.

[seabeyond]

149. yup. i tell hubby, i tell boys, when sitting in locker room, or at the bar and friend "jokes"

about getting some hawt chick drunk to fuck her, that saying nothing, or laughing, is on them. they have a greater responsibility, regardless how hard it is. because these boys/men mouth off like that for each other. just one, you are an ass.... from a peer male goes a long way.

[femrap]

152. Exactly!

These dudes won't listen to a woman. It has to come from other males. This violent culture toward women is the problem and a REAL man would stand up and fight against this.

Alas, not too many of them around. If there were, the backlog of rape kits wouldn't exist.

[Odin2005]

197. I'm the one who goes off on people that do say rape jokes, you jerk.

Quit making assumptions about posters you know nothing about, especially those of us that DO give a damn! :grr:

[femrap]

216. I'm not

a jerk.

I was reacting to your written words. I made no assumptions about you.

And from now on, I no longer have to read your words.

[cbgb2112]

70. Thank you for sharing that difficult and awful story. You are 100% right.

[LiberalLoner]

127. Thank you . n/t

[riderinthestorm]

81. Oh Liberal Loner, I am so sorry about this.

Sounds as though you have figured things out - you are not to blame, you have found some equilibrium.

But it never goes away. That trust issue is blown forever.

You are so strong though, I am loving your posts. You are an inspiration for so many who despair after rape. It's not the end of the world, it's doesn't even have to define you. But it will be a part of your life forever. You can use this tragedy to be greater than ever.

Your OP is wonderful and spot on. I have daughters and I remind them of your message all the time. You have no idea how powerful you are as the voice of experience. Don't stop shouting it from the rooftops. There's a balance between trust and blind trust. Be wary, be alert, stay sober. They are good life lessons for everyone but especially for women.

[LiberalLoner]

130. Thank you so much. I don't feel very strong though. I am glad you are talking to

your daughters about this kind of thing. I hope that all parents do, talk to their children about these issues.

[GETPLANING]

82. I'm glad you realize what happened wasn't your fault

I have always been a little shocked at how many women I know (I'm just turning 50) who have been raped. I would say that nearly half the women I have been close to have told me they have had sex forced on them one way or another. Most of them were raped by men they knew and thought they trusted. I can't imagine what it must have been like or what makes someone want to do that to another person. It sure isn't love. It's the perpetrators who should be ashamed, not the victims. Good luck to you.

[LiberalLoner]

131. Thank you - I hope everyone reads your post and realizes how common rape is. But

I have also been shocked at how many men have told me it's not rape if they knew the person, if they were on a date. There is something seriously off in our culture I think.

[readmoreoften]

83. "Learn to be wary"? How about men STOP RAPING PEOPLE? Stop blaming yourself.

Good fucking god. Don't give this guy a pass.

[LiberalLoner]

132. LOL. You've got some real fire in your spirit, I like that. :) n/t

[Kablooie]

89. That is so bizarre to me.

Of course I can imagine becoming horny in a situation like that and possibly making some moves if you feel extreme about it but it's inconceivable to me to act on it without consent. I'd probably just tell her to go away and deal with myself in private.

But I'm a guy who's had few girlfriends in my life. I wonder if this attitude of mine is one of the reasons?

[ZombieHorde]

90. I wish I had words of wisdom. I don't look forward to having that talk with my daughter.

I have not figured out what to tell her yet. I have told her about good and bad touches, but I don't think she understands the situation yet.

:cry:

[LiberalLoner]

134. I had a million reasons (some of them physical) for not having had children, but one of

those million reasons is that I looked around at how women are treated in the world - looked at my experience of having been raped as a child, raped as an adult, other women I know who have been harmed by men or beaten by them or killed - and decided, no, I'm not going to play this game, not going to bring new life into the world when it's like this.

[DesertDiamond]

91. Yes! Yes! Well said, LiberalLoner! I'm sorry for what you went through.

Thank you for taking on the mission to speak up about it. It amazes me that even today women are blamed for their own rapes, and that they accept that blame.

[LiberalLoner]

135. Thank you. n/t

[Sherman A1]

92. I am exceptionally sorry that this happened to you, but

please understand in no way was this your fault and you should not accept any blame for it from yourself, no matter the circumstances, what you were wearing, where you were or whatever. He committed the act, not you.

I will not tell you that I feel your pain (I'm a mid 50's male so I will not lie to you), but I do have daughters (in their 30's) and I worry about them constantly because of where they work and the very early and very late hours in which they must travel to get back and forth to their places of employment. I remind them constantly to be careful and wary, because I love them and worry about them.

I am in hopes that you can regain your ability to trust again, because that appears to have been taken from you through this incident and the violation which you suffered. It will be very hard for you to redevelop that ability to trust, but I encourage you to do your best to try. Work with people in your family, close friends, co-workers, professionals or whoever you think best to do so. (I really think you have made the first effort with this posting) .

Trust is important in our lives and it's important that we not be a "loner" or alone and connecting with the ability to trust comes in many, many different ways.

My Very Best To You.....

[Pooka Fey]

102. This is excellent advice. Kicking your post.

[LiberalLoner]

136. Thank you. I'm pushing 50 myself. n/t

[Sherman A1]

162. Thanks for your response to my thoughts

And as "The Father of Daughters" (who really believes that women should be honored rather than abused), I again wish you the best. Everyday will hopefully get just a little bit better and those who work to deserve your trust will be given it at the appropriate juncture.

[seabeyond]

164. you really want to know what helps the girl the most....

in her experience with males.

it is you, the father, the choices you make, how you live, and what your daughter learns from you and gains in her own self worth and self respect.

i was so blessed to have the father i did. he gave me so much in knowing my worth, and it has servered me so very very well in life.

the motehr teaches the daughter what it is to be female. the father teaches the daughter what her worth is to men.

[Dorian Gray]

97. Do not blame yourself

I know it's easy for me to say that to you, and you will probably continue to do so, but you did absolutely nothing wrong. The only person who did is the many who raped you. You are not to blame for your actions.

I do think it's important for women to protect themselves the best they can, as well.

I am so sorry for what you suffered through.

[LiberalLoner]

138. Thank you. n/t

[Bucky]

98. Goddamn, that's unfair.

You didn't deserve that. You're right when you say it's not your fault and you're wrong when you say you blame yourself. He's the asshole who couldn't keep it together. I'm a man and I've got all sorts of creepy thoughts running around in my head most of the time. But a real man controls his shit.

I'm so sorry that your former friend didn't. You just didn't deserve to have your trust betrayed because he was going through some horrible stuff in his head. I can see how this must garble up your thoughts. I hope you find some good sources of help and find the happiness that you do deserve.

I also thank you for serving. I know I live in a safer country because people like you step forward. I hope your world becomes safer again.

[LiberalLoner]

140. Thank you :) n/t

[Pooka Fey]

100. I am so sorry this happened to you.

This was NOT YOUR FAULT. :hug:

[ReverendDeuce]

106. So what happened to "Andy"? What did you do when he was "done"?

I got it that you didn't report it because of career issues, etc. That makes sense.

It surely must have been awkward working with him. When he was "done", did he just walk out? Did you? I mean, I get it that you didn't report it but -- I am curious what happened after. Just seems so surreal.

[LiberalLoner]

126. I walked out. He let me up and I walked out and I went to take the shower that I

had been on my way to take. I cleaned up well between my legs because I wanted him off me. Then I dried off and put my robe back on and went to my room and got into my uniform and walked to the FMMC to do my job. Decided I would block it out of my mind so that I could concentrate on a job that was for me very demanding of my concentration. Threw myself into my work that day as I did all days.

Didn't feel like eating that day so I didn't. Went back to the barracks that night and felt restless. Still trying not to think about things. Overwhelmed with a feeling of guilt that I had somehow taken something away from Michelle, his girlfriend. Worries about being pregnant because I was not on the pill and of course he used no condom. Told myself not to think about it. Pushed it out of my mind. Told myself to be tough, to be the airborne soldier that I indeed was. (At the time, assigned to the XVIII Corps (Abn) - all the way.)

When I heard Michelle and Andy going at it, it felt unsettling to me for some reason (my room was next to hers and the walls were thin so I could hear) and I got up and went for a run. I ran about 8 miles until I was exhausted around the 4-mile perimeter camp (ran around the inside edges/roads twice) and then went out to the fields around the Jet A-1 tanks and thought for a long time about dousing myself with Jet A-1 and lighting a match. But didn't have a match or a lighter. Thought about going to the "O" club where surely I could find some matches. Finally decided for whatever reason to go back to the barracks and put off suicide for some other day. Took another shower and took a Benadryl to knock me out so I could sleep and slept.

Avoided Andy as much as possible in the barracks and socially. Did not work directly with him - he was an aviator, I was Quartermaster Corps - mostly tried not to think about things.

Broke down and cried in relief when I got my period two weeks later. Thought, "good, it's all over now." Closed the door on the incident in my mind and haven't really thought all that much about it since. I guess not until just now. I don't really like thinking about it to be honest with you.

But that is what I remember from it.

[seabeyond]

129. yup.....

hugs....

[LiberalLoner]

146. You know what? Telling that part of the story was way harder than telling the

story of the actual rape. I don't know why. Now I am going to get up and get busy and do things because I don't want to think about it any more. I don't want to remember the part afterwards any more.

[seabeyond]

148. i knew it would be

i was curious, but that is hard, and you told it so well. saying in the honesty and this is it, type mode. i am proud you were able too.

i hear ya....

walk away and get on. you really did a service with your insight and experience. helped a lot of people

peace at you

[leftyladyfrommo]

168. That is really what most women do. Date rape or whatever it is.

They just get up and keep going. And so often blame themselves. Their only crime was that they got in the way of a sociopath. It can happen to anyone. Sociopaths don't care one iota about the person they target. They just want what they want and feel absolutely no guilt or shame.

You can't expect to be able to read people's minds or be able to see behind the mask of the sociopath. Experts can't do it and they know exactly what to look for.

[MrScorpio]

107. It was never your fault... NEVER.

If I could say that to you 100 million times I would

[LiberalLoner]

141. Thank you :) n/t

[Solly Mack]

108. My heart goes out to you.

Thank you for sharing your pain with us. Thank you for trusting us to listen...to hear...your story.

(((LiberalLoner)))

[LiberalLoner]

142. Thank you :) n/t

[onlyadream]

109. I'm so sorry that happened to you

and you're right - it was 100% his fault. The fact that you justify sitting on his bed makes me sad. :(

I will be sure to tell my 13yo daughter what can happen. I've been there myself but got lucky (the guy was pulled off me b/c we were in a public place). He was also someone I thought was a friend.

[LiberalLoner]

143. How awful that he tried to attack you - I really wish I could be in a man's head and

understand the thinking because it really confuses me.

[Mad_Dem_X]

120. I'm so sorry you had to go through that

But I thank you for having the courage to share that with us. There are still some people who need to learn that rape is NEVER the fault of the victim, EVER. :hug:

[LiberalLoner]

144. Thank you. n/t

[GreenStormCloud]

133. That jerk of a "man" has likely convinced himself that it was consensual sex.

Thank you for sharing an obviously painful story. Rape is bad enough, but when it is combined with betrayal of trust the pain is so much greater.

[LiberalLoner]

145. I really do wonder what went on in his head. Sometimes I wish I knew. n/t

[ensho]

150. true, women and girls can never trust any man or boy

and as there are no gods your rapist gets off scot free

thank the fates and muses my mother clued me in from the time I was a 4 or 5 yrs. old.

[nyc 4 Biden]

153. so sorry that happened to you.

i would just like you to know that there are many good guys out there(and a lot on this site) that are worthy of a woman's trust. i do agree that trust is not something to be given lightly, especially after being betrayed as you have. i think you probably meant not to trust associates as opposed to significant others though. either way, thanks for sharing, you are a strong woman.

[SocialistLez]

156. Please don't blame yourself.

There are SOME days I blame myself for my rape but I know most days it wasn't my fault.

It wasn't your fault.

You should have been able to go in there NAKED for all I care and expected to be safe.

[Deep13]

157. Dammit!

It pisses me off that he did that and that because of his criminal conduct you can't trust anyone. Bastard.

[Berry Cool]

159. Thank you, so much, for telling what must have been a very hard story to tell.

I, too, understand teaching children from a very young age to be wary. That was never in dispute. But that's precisely the problem: we teach wariness (primarily to females) and then think that when it comes to rape prevention, our work is done. All one needs to do to prevent rape is to be careful. The onus is on oneself for prevention--that's what we teach. After all, men are going to rape--we can't do anything about that. That's what we teach.

I propose we teach something else. That men CAN be an active part of rape prevention--if we teach them, from a very young age, that not securing a woman's permission (or a man's, for that matter) before proceeding with sex is wrong. And that getting her incapacitated to take advantage of her, or taking advantage of her because she is already incapacitated, is NOT OK.

[nichomachus]

160. There is a huge difference between blame and responsibility

One reason this type of discussion gets into the flaming area very quickly is that people can't differentiate between responsibility and blame. To say someone has some responsibility for something that happened (lack of caution) isn't to say they should be blamed. They are two completely different concepts. Blame has a moral component and responsibility does not necessarily.

For the record -- in your case I don't even see a lack of normal caution because you were doing something that was a normal behavior and you trusted someone -- with good reason - and that trust was violated.

Suppose I am in a bar and I leave my wallet on the bar while I go to the bathroom. When I come back, my money is gone and so is the stranger who was sitting next to me.

I bear some of the responsibility because I was incautious. Had I not left my wallet on the bar, the perpetrator would not have had the opportunity, but I did nothing morally wrong. The perpetrator also had responsibility, because without his actions, nothing would have happened, but he also gets the blame, because he acted wrongly in taking something that didn't belong to him.

Now, suppose the person next to me was a friend who I had been drinking with many times. That really reduces my responsibility because I was operating under the assumption that he wouldn't steal from me. If he does, then he bears more responsibility for what happened -- and his level of blame is higher because he violated a trust as well as took something that didn't belong to him.

So, to say that I should have been more careful with my wallet (in the first case) is not to "blame" me for what happened, but only to say that I acted foolishly and bear some of the responsibility in the chain of events that led to the outcome. The other person is still the person with all the blame.

This is why urging women to be cautious about putting themselves in situations where they could be assaulted is in no way "blaming" them for the outcome -- merely saying that we all have some obligation not to foolishly put ourselves in danger. And, it in no way excuses the perpetrator of the crime (as some people seem to think it does).

[seabeyond]

165. people can't differentiate between responsibility and blame

excellent post. and well written for understanding. this is how i walk life. how i see many many things. how i own my part. and in owning my part, it is not taking responsibility for a wrong, but a lesson how not to have it happen again in the future.

i live this way

so it isnt hard for me to seperate the two.

[Hello_Kitty]

172. Pedantic and insulting.

It's like some people really do think women are too stupid to breathe. :eyes:

Newsflash: The constant and nearly exclusive focus on what the victim was doing/wearing/ingesting looks a lot like blame. And no, we really don't need yet another rape prevention safety lecture kthxbai.

[Tumbulu]

189. such a well written post- excellent to distinguish between the two (nt)

[Hello_Kitty]

202. From the person who thinks men are biologically predisposed to rape. eom

[seabeyond]

211. from the person that has tried to explain herself

and not so cowardly to edit her post, but ask for understanding. from the person that has been on the receiving end, trying to figure out why she was one to have to experience rape.

i think when people fuck up you call them on it. i also think when people work at amends you graciously accept.

[pinboy3niner]

213. + 100

As far as I'm concerned, Tumbulu has redeemed herself by apologizing, expaining and thoughtfully considering other perspectives and critiques.

Graciousness is in order. At this point, unfortunately, some may react to a single post while overlooking the rest of the discussion.

[LiberalLoner]

215. + 1,000 She meant no harm and has suffered greatly herself. Please don't attack her anymore. n/t

[Tumbulu]

218. Thank you (nt)

[Tumbulu]

217. I do not think that

and have tried hard to explain what I was trying to articulate about outliers in a group.

[defendandprotect]

167. k

[nvme]

171. Wow

Unfortunately, the dirtbag who did that too you wasnt castrated. thats my opinion

[colsohlibgal]

173. So Sorry This Happened.

I've not had to go through this but thought I was facing that prospect one night. I was accosted Halloween night 2005 by a muscular man with a knife. As it turned out, fortunately, he only wanted my purse but I didn't know that initially and it was terrifying.

It changed my life, I always carry pepper spray or a stun gun with me now, I've taken serious self defense courses for women.

It is never our fault no matter what we wear.

BTW, my wish would to be a spectator if any man tried to molest either of the two women who taught my self defense course. The result of that attempt would be a trip to the hospital for the creep, those gals were Israeli commando tough.

[Daemonaquila]

175. I'm so sorry you had to go through that...

and the shit who did it will likely never understand what he did.

I only disagree with the lesson you took from it, but it's your lesson, and your choice.

A good friend tried to rape me many years ago. He didn't succeed, though there was a battle. It took a lot of thinking after that, about what it all meant.

Perhaps the difference is that I'm rather a vicious dame, and have been trained in causing damage a variety of ways. I've had a number of other close - but not quite that close - calls. But in the end, I refuse to decide not to trust, or to live a wary life, or to council others to not trust. I think we kill a piece of ourselves by making that decision. Besides, how far should that distrust go? Rape is only a small part of the dangers we face from others.

If I had a daughter, would I make sure she could fight like a rabid wolverine? Certainly. But I'd hope she would be bold, trusting her instincts about whom to trust, walking in dangerous places with her head high, going places where angels fear to tread if she so pleased. Life is dangerous, but too much fun to miss embracing fully.

Whatever your path, I wish you all the best. Do not blame yourself. You did nothing wrong. You did not put yourself in any special danger, any more than waking up in the morning and deciding to get out of bed is putting yourself in danger.

[LiberalLoner]

176. Thank you. I think I've learned to trust to a certain extent - I am married to a great man and

trust him. I'll be going door-to-door with another volunteer to register voters so that's kind of an exercise in trust.

But when we had guests over a few months ago, and I was alone with the husband who seemed to be a bit of a flirt, while my spouse and his used the restrooms, I couldn't help but look for an exit, a way to get away from him, as he was talking to me. I had a moment of fear. Strange how things stay with you sometimes.

[Blue_Tires]

178. a sad read...

it wasn't your fault...

[benld74]

179. Prayers to you - It was NOT your fault

Any man who rapes, is not a man at all. But an animal, who needs to be put down,,

[Cetacea]

180. +10000

This was not your fault!

[awoke_in_2003]

182. And we sometimes see

here people saying "oh, she should have known better", "Oh, she shouldn't have been getting loaded at 3 AM". It is absolutely disgusting. My sister was raped at a party her college track team was having, and like you she had never seen any interest from the raper. Nothing was ever really done about it. College swept it under the carpet due to the drinking. My sister never did tell me the guys name, because I would chop his dick off and feed it to him.

on edit: I know my last sentence is not a very liberal one, but I have NO tolerance for rapists or child molesters.

[peacetalksforall]

184. That man was born with a gift of strength. He misused it. We are here to learn. You shared,

Someone will learn. You are in a way a teacher's assistant through sharing. The student's are those who were given the gift of strength.

[closeupready]

187. I hope you can find it possible to trust again someday, but I send you warm thoughts and hugs

and hope that you can heal from that experience, no matter how long it takes.

[Skittles]

190. I would have gotten the nearest baseball bat and that bastard would be hurting

fuck the solider bit - I served

[Mimosa]

198. Co-ed barracks are probably a bad idea

As long as there are some men who are 'unable to control themselves' things like co-ed barracks are a bad idea.

Liberal Loner, most women know that under similar circumstances that could happen to any of us. Males are in general physically stronger and you were put in the way of harm.

[LiberalLoner]

203. I agree, I talked to my husband today - he's an 0-6 in the Army at the present - asked him

if he thought I should send my story to the Commander 1SB over there in the MFO in the Sinai.

He said absolutely not. Too much time has passed, and for all we know, the situation has already been rectified, because - in his words - it is a COMPLETELY different Army than the one I was in back in 1990 or so and commanders are now taking all of this much more seriously than they once did.

Part of me thinks he is just trying to protect me from harm. From some macho bullshit reply along the lines of "get lost, we don't care" from some 0-5.

But maybe I am too pessimistic. Maybe the Army has changed for the better now.

[LeftyMom]

220. Raping people is a bad idea.

Rapists don't just rape women, fwiw. The problem isn't proximity of men and women. It's proximity of rapists and other human beings.

[Bobbie Jo]

199. K&R

Thank you for this.

[LeftyMom]

221. Eventually you have to make a choice. Either you live in a world dominated by fear, or you don't.

You also choose to perpetuate that fear and spread it to others, or to help others learn to balance trust and wariness healthfully. Nobody can make that decision for you, but having been in a similar situation that went equally badly, my experience is that you're making the wrong choice and you aren't going to find happiness or peace as long as you choose fear and mistrust.

[AnArmyVeteran]

222. It has nothing to do with 'making a decision'

Perhaps you were able to do so in your life, and if so, I am very happy for you. Rape or sexual abuse as a child wounds one's very spirit. Yes, a person can live their lives and function, but deep within their wounded little child is still crying out in pain. It never goes away. Through normal times in one's life that voice within can seem silent, but it is always just a moment away ready to surface especially in times of doubt, uncertainty, loneliness, fear or loss.

People can 'act strong' on the surface and I'm sure some are able to never have to revisit their inner child. But those are the fortunate ones. The trail of victims is a long one and sometimes people have their spirits so destroyed they are unable to even go on. I'm am very happy you have been fortunate enough to be able to 'move on' and live a full and happy life, but always know there are many others who never overcome their horrible experiences, especially when the abuse is from someone who was trusted.

Abuse of one's spirit can shape a person's entire life, leaving them always wondering who they would or could have been if not for the deep violation to their soul. Unfortunately, humans aren't equipped with a switch to turn their emotions off or on. If we did there wouldn't be any need for millions of therapists or hospitals who treat the huge number of victims. No one 'chooses' to be a victim, just as they are not able to 'choose' to be happy and at peace, especially when they are living their lives dominated by fear, guilt, shame, chaos and anger from being so intimately violated.

I am very glad you were able to overcome your abuse and are leading a peaceful and happy life.

I wish you the very best...

[pinboy3niner]

225. + 100--Another excellent, insightful post, AAV

Thanks for being here!

A similar way of looking at it, as I wrote in a post lost somewhere upthread:

Distrust may be as much a psychological reaction as a conscious choice.

A trauma survivor--whether a rape victim or a combat veteran--learns that the world is a hostile and threatening place. Armed with that newfound knowledge, the brain often adapts by developing new survival skills which may even overreact to traumatic experience.

In the same way, undeserved guilts (i.e., "It's my fault") often can persist for a very long time because it is extremely difficult to rationalize away something that is less a rational decision than a subconscious emotional and psychological reaction.

Love & Peace,
pinboy3niner

[AnArmyVeteran]

226. Thanks for that Pinboy3niner... I like and agree with everything you wrote.

Peace to you too...

[ismnotwasm]

227. I'm so sorry you went through that

And I'm glad you're able to post this.

I think you commented upthread about responses and emotional issues, rape is one of those issues that tends to get a lot of responses. I appreciate how you've handled your replies, (it can't have been easy) because there are a few what some of us call the 'usual suspects' on these type of threads who take blaming the victim to a new level.

I have my own experiences with attempted rape and was fortunate enough to get away. I used to think 'street', or ,rather, violence and crime is what happens when you're in the wrong place at the wrong time and is always, at least partly, your own fault. (I've since noticed something very similar in how republicans think) Once I left that world of the street, I was able to begin to understand the concept of social justice and some of what lies at the roots cause of many destructive and heinous behaviors.

All men are not rapists, of course. I'm married to a wonderful man. Here, however, is a website that gets to the point.



http://www.mencanstoprape.org/

[seabeyond]

228. i tell ya, i think she is totally awesome how she walked this thread. and

thank you for this site. i am going ot explore it when i have time. looks very interesting.