So, apparently lots of DUers think it's a good thing that Falwell is dead.

[Guaranteed]

Or am I mischaraterizing the position of so many posters? I get the idea from responses such as "Good" and "Rot in hell."

If people are feeling that, you know that Falwell can't be the only one. So why not start a list?

Who else, since it's appropriate to judge in this way, is better dead than alive?

[JANdad]

1. Pat Robertson comes to mind

One down...two to go...

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

2. It's not as easy to mourn...

for some folks.

[Philosoraptor]

3. It would appear so captain.

[kurth]

4. It's always a good thing when bad guys die

Don't cry for them.

[Blashyrkh]

6. Bad is a matter of perspective

Would you be offended by an outpouring of joy over the death of Bill Clinton?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

8. Are you comparing Bill Clinton to Jerry Falwell?

Moreover, is your perspective of Jerry Falwell a good one?

Is there any perspective of Jerry Falwell as being good that doesn't come from peeking out of two eye holes in a white hood?

[Redstone]

20. Regarding the last sentence in your post: No, I don't think there is. Although it COULD come from

peeking out from under a bridge...

Redstone

[Blashyrkh]

36. No, I'm not. This has nothing to with Falwell's position on anything.

I'm comparing the outpouring of joy expressed by the leftwing over the death of a rightwing personality to a hypothetical outpouring of joy by the rightwing over the death of a leftwing personality.

Is that clear enough?

I'll ask again; would you be offended by FR erupting in orgasm over the death of Bill Clinton?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

46. Well, then how is it a comparison?

It'd only be a comparison if Bill Clinton was comparable to Falwell, wouldn't it?

[durrrty libby]

16. Bill is love... Fatwell is ignorance ..you are ....?

[Blashyrkh]

41. ...getting pretty sick of being called a freeper because I won't toe the party line?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

48. toe the party line?

What are you talking about?

[Blashyrkh]

67. You might not have noticed,

but I've already been told twice in the past 40 minutes that I should reconsider my membership with this site because I'm expressing different opinion to a vocal majority.

I'm just trying to stop this from getting worse because I don't wanna leave DU, but I sure as fuck won't be intimidated into not expressing my opinion. Which I've seen happen today by prominent members of this community.

[keopeli]

89. Dear Blashyrkh, welcome to DU!

Your comments today have put me off, especially when you have used profanity and name-calling to blast people who disagree with you. Since you have only been a member here for 2 months and are an infrequent poster, I thought I'd give you a little of my own insights. I suppose if you have not lived with the DU community for the past 6 years, you may be unaware of the depth of animosity Fallwell built up among this largely tolerant population. If you had been here, I think you would be less surprised and dismayed at the vitriol that has poured out as a result of Fallwell's seemingly-belated demise (to me, anyway).

As far as DU rules go, you are perfectly welcome to express your opposing opinion, even though your opinion ranks in a minority of DUers. However, when emotions become heated and disagreements evolve, we maintain our civility towards each other (which is about all we can do).

Personally, I have enjoyed today's debate. I enjoyed reading posts by yourself and others that run contrary to my own way of thinking. But, once you descend to name calling and other logical and rational fallacies (which I can't quote here because they've been deleted by moderators), you are likely to bump up against a wall.

The truth is that DUers do NOT share Fallwell's hatred of whole classes of people based on his own baseless beliefs. By and large, we avoid the trappings of the "hate class" that single out people based on erroneous notions.

However, people like me, who have lived with the consequences of Fallwell's firebrand sermonizing and demonizing, who have had friends die while he danced on their graves, who have fought tirelessly to counter his poisonous rhetoric, we feel a great sense of relief at his passing...even giddiness and joy. Although he would never admit it (he thought he would be raptured), we knew all along that one day he would die and the cancer that was his life would be at an end. This is not wishing him dead: it is acknowledging his death and the fruits that come with it.

I can understand how someone new to DU might be offended by today's Fallwell post-mortem party. I can see how, out of context, it seems petty, trite, even shameful. But, I believe it is the picture that Fallwell himself painted, the sum of his actions, and the sheer relief that he will never utter another hateful word that has caused this board to be overcome with untempered remarks. Perhaps in a day or two, like with a hangover, individuals will step back from their words today and temper them with more careful word choices. But, for me, I have let my mind revel in the knowledge that I will never hear from his forked tongue again, that he no longer can cause any pain to the living souls that he tortured.

I've taken the time to write this because you are new to DU and an unusual day like today deserves some sort of explanation. I hope today will not disuade you from continuing to participate in our discussions. I also hope you (and others) will refrain from name calling, which is always unbecoming.

You need not reply - but do know that you and your opposing views are welcome here as long as you are not a lurker or have other nefarious intents - and I don't believe that you do. I look forward to reading more of your posts in the future.

Peace to you.
Keo

[Blashyrkh]

92. Thank you for your reasoned response.

I don't believe I've resorted to name-calling. I'd like to be reminded of when.

I was enjoying yesterday's debates until it became blindingly apparent that a large majority of people were convinced that dancing of Falwell's grave was the right thing to do and anyone not expressing that sentiment is either a fool, a racist, a troll or any combination. Redstone and Bornaginhooligan have done so a few posts above in this thread. These are two prominent members of DU openly flaunting the rules.

I've been thinking about this. People are entitled to feel anger towards Falwell. People are entitled to hate him. I think that when people express a somewhat blase attitude to an issue that others are really passionate about, it can cheapen or invalidate those feelings. I don't think that's been anyone's intention at all. I think it's a clear indication of what kind of a hatemonger Falwell was that he made the day of his death one of the ugliest ever on DU.

[Redstone]

18. Bull fucking shit. Did Bill Clinton spew venom and hatred toward EVERYONE who

did not conform to HIS worldview?

Are you SURE that DU is the right place for you?

Redstone

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Redstone]

42. Uh, no, I don't think I want to understand your point of view. That post was all I need to know.

Redstone

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

43. Ooo, classy.

"Talk about tolerance. "

Yeah, fuck that intolerance.

:rofl:

[Bethany Rockafella]

50. um, I don't think anyone here is forcing you to speak ill of Falwell.

Temper temper.

[karlrschneider]

53. Sorry, you must have confused us with someone who gives a fuck what you think.

:puke:

[w13rd0]

24. And are you expecting that the...

...neocons and right-wing won't be dancing in the streets when Clinton passes away? Are you kidding me?

Paul

Wellstone

Sorry, just not feeling restraint on the basis of a fear they might be "mean" to our icons and leaders after they are dead. Specially since it's a f'n certainty.

[Blashyrkh]

54. I'm not restraining myself.

Falwell meant nothing to me so I'm not going to waste any energy on him.

I was just trying to make a point about perspective, but most people are still in rabid hate mode. Thanks for trying.

[karlrschneider]

56. Isn't there a horny roo that needs your attention?

Oh, wait, are you Laurie Appleton?

:rofl: :rofl:

[Canuckistanian]

What harm to humanity happened in Clinton's time?

Who inspired hatred in MILLIONS?

Who fleeced all his followers for MILLIONS?

Who blamed all catastrophes on gays, liberals and lesbians?

Anyone who demonizes Bill Clinton doesn't know what a demon is.

[Blashyrkh]

57. I agree.

I'm just trying to compare the reactions of two distinct groups to deaths of personalities in the other group. People aren't interested.

I'M GLAD HE'S DEAD AND I HOPE HIS SOUL IS SODOMISED FOR ETERNITY!

Better?

[Bethany Rockafella]

64. You misspelled sodomized.

:)

[Canuckistanian]

76. Depends what country you come from

"Sodomised" is perfectly acceptable in British Commonwealth countries.

In the abstract AND the practical.

[Canuckistanian]

74. Yes, I know you were

I was just venting.

[Redstone]

77. That was weak. I'll expect better from you next time.

Redstone

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

5. A list? OK.

1. Falwell
2. Hitler
3. Stalin
4. Joe McCarthy
5. Pol Pot
6. Nathaniel Bedford Forrest
7. Strom Thurmond
8. Jesse Helms
9. Tim McVeigh
10. Josef Goebbels

Shall I continue?

[Guaranteed]

7. Alright- so let's say we line up all those guys- if they weren't dead

already- and gave you a gun. Would you pull the trigger yourself?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

9. Would I kill any of them personally?

I suppose if I were currently employed as an executioner, and they've gone through due process.

Why, wouldn't you execute Hitler?

[Guaranteed]

11. No, you're not just employed as the executioner. You're the judge, here,

remember? You get to say who should live and who should die.

I'm just adding in the bonus of getting to implement your decision. Would you?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

You mean would I sentence Hitler to death? Certainly.

Wouldn't you?

[Guaranteed]

14. You seem to be avoiding the question of whether you would shoot him

and carry out your judgment.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

17. You seem to be avoiding the obvious.

That killing somebody is completely different than being happy that they're dead.

Aren't you happy that Hitler's dead?

[Guaranteed]

32. Well, Hitler sure is.

Now that I'm thinking about it, no, maybe I'm not happy that he's dead.

I'm happy that he wasn't able to continue his genocide. That's what I'm happy about- but that could have been done just as well by imprisoning him, I suppose.

You're not against the death penalty, by chance, are you?

In any case, comparing Falwell to Hitler is pretty loose, as well...

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

35. I'm absolutely against the death penalty.

I'm not going to argue with death, on the other hand.

How about Goebbels? I'm not seeing much difference between Falwell and Goebbels.

[Guaranteed]

44. I'd have to say that if there isn't that much difference between

Falwell and Goebbels, then, no, I'm not happy Goebbels is dead. If Goebbels was merely expressing his opinion on issues, instead of contributing directly to mind control that led to genocide, then I couldn't in good conscience wish death upon him. That would be a purely moral condemnation- which, I don't believe, ever can end in a death judgment.

In my opinion, if people on this board believed that Falwell was directly threatening them and their lives, they have every right to judge him on these terms. I don't think that, in some cases, that would be an unreasonable belief, either.

But we need to make that distinction- moral condemnation vs. defense of self, family, friends from imminent threat- and make it very, very clear. Because you know this is a very slippery slope you're going down.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

47. Are you sure you know who Jerry Falwell was?

This was the guy who wanted the people of Orlando to die, because they were letting homosexuals into Disneyworld.

[Redstone]

23. About six of those ten, I wouldn't NEED a gun. I'd strangle them with my bare hands, and not

feel the slightest twinge of conscience.

Ditto for Idi Amin and Milosevich.

Redstone

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

31. Oh, I could keep going.

11. Idi Amin
12. Milosevic
13. Osama bin Laden
14. Mullah Omar
15. Mao Tse Tung
16. Richard Nixon
17. Ronald Reagan
18. Heinrich Himmler
19. Father Coughlin
20. Mussolini

Shall I keep going?

[Redstone]

40. Nah, let it go at that. You'll pinch someone's nerves if you expand the list too much.

And hey, there's someone on DU who says that Pol Pot wasnt' such a bad guy after all, and that Americans just didn't like the Khmer Rouge because we thought they were a "yellow peril" (the poster's words, not mine).

I shit you not. A Khmer Rouge apologist, right here on DU. Now I HAVE seen it all.

Redstone

[mntleo2]

26. Why Kill Anyone When They are Going To Rot In Hell Anyway?

...look as someone who believes in karma and that he will come back ~ most likely as a poor gay man born HIV positive, I do not need to do a thing. The man asked for it, he was a hypocrite, a liar, a fear monger, and a greed head taking poor people's money to enrich himself while screaming Jeeeeezus every 15 seconds. IMO he deserves "Hooray the witch is dead" threads here, because the old witch IS dead ~ finally. I don't need any retribution because I believe he will get it all by himself after he does his life's review and realizes what a waste his life was.

Cat In Seattle <---a Christian who believes in reincarnation and thinks Mother Theresa will come back to enlighten us further and that Falwell WILL come back to reap his "reward" ~ but it ain't gonna be pretty.

[MethuenProgressive]

10. Eric Robert Rudolph & Osama bin Laden come immediately to mind.

[Redstone]

12. Osama bin Laden? Saddam Hussein? Pol Pot? Idi Amin? Need more?

Redstone

[Guaranteed]

58. How about a living, Republican party operative that contributed to

the situation we are all in today- but that hasn't killed anyone directly?

How about Karl Rove? Should he be dead?

[Redstone]

65. You think I'm going to express an opinion on THAT in a public forum? Are you nuts?

I'm not.

Redstone

[Guaranteed]

68. LOL alright.

I think you'd be wrong if you said he should be, anyway. People can't morally condemn each other on those terms.

[Redstone]

69. Besides which, I just cannot put Rove in the same class as, say, Idi Amin or Pol Pot.

I can dislike the guy, but there's a world of difference right there.

Redstone

[Lex]

13. It is what it is . . . good or bad, it doesn't matter. He's gone.

It is up to us to fill the world with more tolerance, less hate.

[Esra Star]

75. Well put. nt

[whoneedstickets]

15. If you can't say something nice, don't say anything....

...nm

[ccpup]

22. and if Jerry Falwell himself

had lived by that maxim -- and urged his Followers to treat people with respect and dignity --, we wouldn't be having this Thread now, would we?

[Left Is Write]

25. Excellent point.

[Redstone]

28. Well, now, that is absolutely the BEST post I've seen on this subject. I salute you.

You said it all, and perfectly, and in only a few words.

Redstone

[yewberry]

33. No, we wouldn't.

But I'm better than he was.

[callous taoboy]

61. When I was an adolescent, my hippy brothers

used to point out Falwell to me as an example of who you absolutely don't want to emulate. And now I jump on the anti-hate band-wagon. Didn't he serve his purpose well?

[Guaranteed]

73. LOL he's a good anti-example nt

[callous taoboy]

19. My neighbor with the leaf blower....

and the bush/cheney sticker. God I hate him. He should die.

[Guaranteed]

27. Bingo.

You nailed it.

To be fair, I think there is a little more to it than just that, but that's pretty close.

[karlrschneider]

59. email me his address.

I can mitigate your angst.

[w13rd0]

21. Are you trying to get us a visit from the Dept of Homeland Security?

Because my list...well, let's just say you can visit a certain website that starts with w and ends with .gov...

Speaking only for myself, I didn't take an oath to "judge not lest ye be judged". Ronald Reagan was a bastard, so was his vice president, and that guys son. Nixon was also a shit, and I'll be glad when Fred Phelps dies and rots. Nathan Hale, I'll be glad when he's gone. I was happy when that shmuck that led the National Alliance withered on the vine. I'll probably throw a small party when Anthony Scalia calls it quits. There's a good couple dozen members of congress whose faces I have printed on playing cards called "Deck of the Stupid and Criminally Insane".

It's not as if most of these haven't wished for my death, many having expressed their opinions in no uncertain terms, some with the media or the halls of office giving them the pulpit to do so. So if I want to think the world would be a brighter place without them, in private or in a small lil forum like this one, I'm not going to feel bad about it.

And believe me, like Ari Fleisher said, I'd love to see many people marginalized or removed from places of power and influence through diplomatic, peaceful means. Even better, to see them have a change of heart and stop being evil. But sometimes, there's a greater chance that they be slain by an errant bolt of lightning than the more pleasant and peaceful alternatives.

[tyedyeto]

29. Why mourn someone who is against all the principles of the Democratic Party?

Would he have mourned any of our leaders? I doubt it.

[yewberry]

30. Saying terrible things about him would say more about me

than it would about him.

He was a man who hurt a lot of people and contributed greatly to the divide in our nation. I won't miss his influence, but I don't think it's a-ok for me to say more than that. I have nothing to gain by doing so.

[uppityperson]

37. thank you for putting it so well.

[janx]

34. Dude, with me it's personal

I'm sorry for his family, but not too sorry--they will inherit millions--but I can recall people who enlisted in his university and got terribly lost.

[callous taoboy]

51. Don't know your history-

and am certainly not trying to diminish it, but could those lost souls have needed to be lost for a period so that clarity could bring them up to code, so to speak, later on down the road. It's all a journey is all I'm saying. I was a racist bastard at one time, and I believe that that experience has made me an even stronger advocate of human rights presently.

[dweller]

39. no, you're mischaraterizing.

judgements are best weighed upon oneself, where they will do the most good.

dp

[JI7]

45. i wanted him to live long enough to see a Dem takeover of DC

and gay marriage legalized.

[NoPasaran]

49. Well, I'm not saying it's a good thing

But it's certainly not a BAD thing. He devoted the last three decades to spreading intolerance and hatred. He made this country a worse place to live.

[karlrschneider]

52. Since you asked...ROBert$on, Dobson, Kennedy, Swaggart,

Anal Roberts, Hagee, Tilton, to name just a few.

[Zomby Woof]

55. I learned something new today

A few years ago, there were some people who scolded those of us who refused to grieve over Reagan's death. Because we didn't say nice things about his life or political career. We refused to extend condolences or say fake nice homilies so we could show everyone what enlightened progressives we were. We were such bad, bad liberals, oh my! :spank:

But Falwell apparently crossed some undefined barrier of when it does become acceptable to take comfort in someone's death. In other words, Falwell's death exposes the sanctimonious twits for what they are. Just because he pissed on their pet agendas with his hate and dogma. He pissed on some of mine too, but you never heard me tell others they had no right to bitch and moan when he did. Or when Reagan did. Or any of those diseased fuckers.

So I day fuck 'em. They have forfeited their right to wag their fingers at the rest of us for engaging in some well-earned schadenfreude.

No lists though. Much too McCarthyesque or Nixonian for my tastes.

[Guaranteed]

60. I wasn't one of them.

Don't think I've ever danced on a grave in my life.

[karlrschneider]

62. It's not as good as a blowjob but it's pretty damn satisfying.

...

[ScreamingMeemie]

63. If this is directed at my thread, I truly do feel and know the difference.

Falwell openly preached hatred and encouraged actions against those he, himself judged to be damned. I'm not dancing on his grave, but I sure am glad his voice is silenced...much more so than any other person who has died before him in the time of DU's existance. My uncle did not deserve to die. No one ever forfeits their right to an opinion. :(

[NashVegas]

66. I Think We Think It's a Good Thing to Be Able to Say "Falwell Is Dead"

Make no mistake - it's about what he did to our country.

[Rex]

70. Honestly, didn't give a shit. Another RW nutball dies, yawn.

Whatever. You want a list? Why don't you start?

[scarletwoman]

71. A list? No problem: Henry Kissinger would be #1. Dick Cheney, #2.

Richard Perle would definitely be in the top 10. So would Richard Mellon Scaife and Rupert Murdoch. There are many (too many) minions of Mordor.

I think there's actually quite a number of people whose departure from the material plane would make our world a better place. Some people are simply toxic to the collective human consciousness -- which means that humanity as a whole is definitely better off when they are taken out of the picture.

sw

[Guaranteed]

72. What makes you such a great judge of character that you could

justify a person's "departure from the material plane" merely on your opinion?

[scarletwoman]

80. Did I say I was going to actively ensure their departure? No, I did not.

All I said is that the departure of these people would make the world a better place. Eventually, ALL of us will "depart". That's not a matter of *my* judgement, that's just a fact. Life is fatal.

Some departures leave the world poorer: JFK, RFK, MLK, & Paul Wellstone, for example. Other departures give -- or could give -- the world some degree of opportunity to be a better place. And I count Falwell's departure among these latter.

sw

[Guaranteed]

81. I didn't say you would ensure it, either- I said you believe you

can justify it, based on their character.

[scarletwoman]

88. I don't have to "justify" anyone's death because it's not up to me. We are ALL going to die.

The only way I would be in the position to "justify" someone's death is if I actually decreed their death and actively accomplished it.

It wasn't I, but fate, that decreed Jerry Falwell's death. And it will be fate that decrees the death of anyone else on my imaginary list of people whose absence would possibly improve the world.

Death happens to everyone eventually. "Justification" has nothing to do with it.

sw

[SPKrazy]

78. i'm sure there are people who are indeed justified to feel that way

take for instance those who died of AIDS because of the kind of intolerance towards people who contracted HIV and his moralization of a virus.

Families and friends of those who died before anything was even begun to be done because of people like him, have every right to be thrilled that the bastard is gone.

Personally I could give two shits about him dead or alive, he was as phony as they come.

The damage he did to our great nation is impossible to quantify, but think in terms of lives lost, money wasted, sexual orientation oppressed, etc

[Forkboy]

79. LMFAO

:rofl:

[alfredo]

82. It is hard to feel bad when a peddler of hate and fear passes.

When Osama passes on, I will not shed a tear for him. Unlike Falwell, Osama never pretended to be our savior.

[Solly Mack]

83. I hadn't noticed

[tom_paine]

84. It is difficult to treat Bad People with any respect when they pass

When Dick Cheney is recalled to Hell by his Master, I may have an all night kegger and I guarantee no shortage of guests that evening.

I understand and respect your position.

But I couldn't find it in my heart to speak well of Hitler and his Henchmen when they were dead, why should I be expected to do so for people who are so similar, even if their direct record of murder and violence is quite a bit less.

But Falwell was in a direct line of the spiritual descendants of those corrupt religious leaders who gave Hitler and Mussolini their stamp of approval.

He is them and they are him. The only differenc is the Leader and party they so blindly support.

Not everyone is as big a person as you, BullGooseLoony. And I cannot find it in my heart to forgive Hitler, Himmler, Bush, Cheney, Pinochet or Falwell.

Sorry.

[stillcool]

85. I don't understand...

what the big deal is about a mother-fucker dying. We all do it. I don't think anything I've done in my life will change the moment I drop dead. Does anybody ever think about this life and death stuff, or is it just a button-push response. Pull the string, and out comes "Don't speak ill of the dead."

[OnyxCollie]

86. "Some People Should Die. That's Just Unconscious Knowledge."

- Jane's Addiction, Pigs In Zen, Nothing's Shocking

[Jamastiene]

87. Just honoring his wishes.

“ brute beasts...part of a vile and satanic system will be utterly annihilated, and there will be a celebration in heaven.”

http://thinkexist.com/quotes/jerry_falwell/2.html

So, if he was a Christian, he was doing unto others as he would have them do unto him. Therefore, he asked for the celebration of his death, specifically, before he died.

[City67]

90. Falwell meant nothing to me

But when I read some of the replies I am not surprised at the way people at other forums point and laugh at what is sometimes said here.

[Lilith Velkor]

91. Rush Limbaugh

I would not mourn his passing one bit.

[Jed Dilligan]

93. I don't think it's a good thing,

because whoever takes his place will probably be even more radical and extremist.

I do think it's funny when people say we shouldn't gloat over his death for the sake of his family. They are probably happier than we are to see him go. An asshole in public is usually a bigger asshole in private.

The only death to look forward to is the death of the whole generation that keeps us locked in these stale, stale "culture wars." Even then, who knows? Maybe the next one will be even worse.

I won't modify my opinion of somebody just because they are dead. If his death marks the end of an era, that is certainly something to celebrate. But I'm afraid his death may be the start of a new era, not the end of the old one.