The Male Gaze

[redqueen]

I might have brought this up in here before. I'm wondering how many feminists agree or disagree with the theory... or who might agree that it happens but perhaps have no problem with it.

It seems to me that the vast majority of people in general (feminists and non-feminists alike) are only slightly aware of it (if at all), and that the vast majority also has no problem with it.

As for me, obviously I have a huge problem with it... as most could probably tell from my posts. I hope I'm not doing the victimhood thing, because I don't want or mean to. I just see this imbalance in the power structure and I wish very much to do everything I can to change it.

[ismnotwasm]

1. I think

It's nice to be honestly admired, but how can one tell the difference? Male entitlement is just that entitlement, so when males 'gaze' it's proprietary and often predatory, it can literally create a flight or fight response in some women. As everything in sexual politics, The Male Gaze is about power, how DO we go about changing that unequal dynamic?


Hell yes, I agree with the theory. Anyone that doesn't should try being a young woman doing nursing clinicals at your friendly local VA hospital.


It's most obvious in cetain Latin cultures and some European cultures, where staring at a women is considered good form and accepted masculinity.

It's can be at it's most innocent among gay men, who can admire each other with less baggage than straight men admire women
(pet peeve; I find the male body exceptionally beautiful. The female body too, but I do not find the female body MORE beautiful! Yet judging from media, the male body is somehow the lesser in the depth and scope of beauty. I call bullshit)
I think that's one reason why many women can get along with gay men, we can look at a beautiful or desirable male and it somehow transcends the power struggle and turns into actual and honest admiration.

I use myself and my life as an example a lot because I'm atypical in many ways. I've always worked out and am a muscular woman. "The male gaze" I receive, unless I've gotten too thin (Not anywhere near a problem at this time in my life *sigh*)is usually tempered by caution, and if it's isn't, I used to give a chin lift and a "sup"(what's up)to obnoxious perpetrators. If I'm thin--more vulnerable looking as opposed to actually better looking-- (I'm an average, somewhat unusual looking woman)That male gaze brings out both fear and fight in me. As I age I wait for invisibility I know will arrive at some point. This year, maybe next.

Anyway, It's another real "men's issue" as are as I'm concerned. Men need to learn to admire without entitlement, without being either predatory or proprietary and I don't see it happening in my lifetime. Why? because evidently many, many (but not all)Men want to wait for Women to tell them that sexual entitlement is bullshit, and don't want to bother learning for themselves.

[redqueen]

2. You reminded me of something...

with the 'anyone who doesn't should try being a young woman doing nursing doing clinicals...'

I was once talking with a guy who was working on his PhD in psychiatry, and he was doing rotations and shared with me an anecdote about talking to this one older woman whom he did not find at all attractive. She apparently was flirting with him a little, and he said he felt very uncomfortable in sessions with her. I told him well now you know what it feels like for so many women so often... and he said he had honestly never thought about it like that.

It sure would be nice if we could all walk at least a few yards in each other's shoes once in a while.

[seabeyond]

3. i am tellin ya, if women across the world "gazed" at the male crotch in same manner

regularly, without thought or concern to the person, in ownership, there would be very few men comfortable with it. they may talk big, but if eyes continually strayed to crotch as they are walking thru their day, they would be squirming. not just once, but an everyday thing for three decades. it gets really fuckin pathetically old.

i know when i was young it made me mad as hell, some ugly old dude that thought it his right. i didnt have the guts at a young age to challenge it.

what got me was a particular post on du by a new male member that went out of his way to be a macho male, he has been tombstoned and i forget exactly his wording on the ogling the breasts, but it hit me. they are his, .... he is possessor of the breast and the women they are attached to really has nothing to do with them, no ownership in them. then later to hear two more guys talking about how they wont stop looking at the breast, they will continue regardless what women say... it just felt like such an odd way to see another person.

it is certainly about a right, almost an obligation to their manhood and all about proving to themselves, see still a man.

there is a booze commercial that reinforced it. talking, STOP, LOOK, then go back to talking. the guys look so pathetic in the commercial, but it is like a commercial drawing them a diagram of how they are suppose to behave. then at the end it says.... men will never change

basically a fuck you women, our right

then on the other hand, all us women, especially young, liked getting the look and the validation, FROM SOME MEN. it is a bet of the mating dance. girls go after the look. males give the look, acknowledging/validating the female sexuality.

i would think though at some point people grow up. seems to be a young persons game.

i am all over the place on this one.

[Gormy Cuss]

4. I think that staring at breasts is fundamentally different than staring at crotches.

Sure, there's usually no obvious delineation of women's lower genitalia the way there is with men, but I think that some men who would never gawk at a labial outline on pants may be perfectly comfortable staring at the chest of every women in sight. Men who are obvious about starting at breasts seem to be exercising power rather than just entertaining sexual thoughts. I've been in many workplace situations where men stared at my chest during the entire conversation. I made a habit of suggesting that they would communicate more effectively by staring at my face and an amazing number of men blushed or reacted with anger because I had called them on the behavior. Yeah, I'm a bitch for expecting you to pay attention to what I'm saying rather than how that blouse looks on me. :eyes:

[seabeyond]

6. fundamentally different maybe, but equal in the power of and discomfort created.

to reduce a human to a boob. to reduce a human to a dick.

what a world we could all live in

[bliss_eternal]

10. great point...

...it *is* different, and all the more unsettling because we are also more used to men--perhaps staring at breast/chests regions (on us, other women, etc.) personally, i'm even more accustomed to men glaring at my legs, or ass (while wearing dresses, skirts, shorts, etc.). but something about a dude gawking at your crotch is just....:scared:

...ugh, way creepy.

[Gormy Cuss]

12. That's the way I feel... we sort of expect men to gawk at breasts, but not our crotches

and you're right about asses and legs too -- we just take it for granted that it's something that is going to happen.

[redqueen]

14. Once we get used to it we take it for granted...

not sure if everyone is the same, but as an adolescent I remember feeling extremely creeped out and did not take it for granted at all.

[Gormy Cuss]

15. Absolutely. It did feel very creepy, then I got used to it.

After all, it was reinforced in all our media that women were supposed to find this complimentary.

[redqueen]

16. "After all, it was reinforced in all our media ..."

Precisely.

And it's similarly reinforced that men are supposed to leer at women in order to be 'real men'.

[bliss_eternal]

18. felt the same way...

...when i actually noticed it, which was long after adolescence. i think the way jeans (and other pants) are cut, makes crotch leering easier. when i was a teen and younger adult, jeans were boxier (making it harder for pervs).

[redqueen]

13. Well the theory is more about the way women are presented in media.

Here's a good description:

http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/08/26/faq-what-is-the-%E2%80%9Cmale-gaze%E2%80%9D/



I read about your description of that awful commercial in the thread about the Charger ad (oh those poor, poor men lol)... I usually like to watch the Superbowl commercials... I'm so glad that this year I didn't bother.

[chillspike]

35. The thing is these type of men are rewarded by some women

The guys who don't respect women as equals are regarded as the coveted "bad boy" by many women and are rewarded with the woman's attention because they are considered "confident"...While the "nice guy" is ignored and labeled as "not confident".

Would I be right in thinking the problem lies with conservative men and women and not liberals, however?

[seabeyond]

36. there is a whole bad boy, nice guy discussion we can get into. and no, i dont see it

conservative, liberal issue. unfortunately, i think it is a culture of objectifying, dehumanizing, more than political.

but i agree that girls/women is part of the whole.

there is a lot of conditioning going on. we have had threads from "studies" that girls (not women) like bad boys. there is a whole lot wrong with the study, but it is held up as gospel truth. thru the threads we tend to see it is not bad boy, but more confidence. a perfectly nice guy with confidence puts self out there and is well rewarded.

we also see that a thought might be given to what girl is attracked to these guys. there are as many messed up girls as there are boys.

[bliss_eternal]

37. no.

imo, you would not be correct. the problem (as stated by the op) lies in male entitlement, which is derived from patriarchy. that is not solely a conservative issue.

this isn't about "dating" or who is attracted to whom (or why). nor is it the appropriate place to blame women for the problems with men and historical male institutions. :(

perhaps you should review what others have said in this thread, and do some reading on patriarchy and feminism. your comment leads me to believe you don't have an understanding of the subject matter at hand, nor what this forum/group is about.

also please review the mission statement of this forum:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=341x1

[ismnotwasm]

19. True

Men are very uncomfortable in situations women tolerate daily. Especially otherwise decent men. They don't 'get' it, because they don't live with it.

I was thinking of the whole 'groupie' phenomena. Even Tiger Woods (aka Cheetah Woods, I don't know why I still find that funny) has truly lovely women follow him around the golf circuit. Groupies think they are making free and open choices, --and they may be--but those choices are often destructive and painful to others.

[bliss_eternal]

21. bit o/t...

....but i find the groupie phenomena fascinating and still mourn the loss of groupie central. :( a site where the rock groupies congregated (about 10-12 years ago), to trade not so secret encounters of getting in rock stars pants.

i'd be lying if i said i didn't find it at least a little entertaining. seeing women discuss men, the way men usually discuss woman--was hysterical. if nothing else, i read about who the most endowed dudes in rock are, the least, and the freaks (whose into weird shit under the sheets). :P interesting psychological study too (what women will do and/or trade for what they consider power).

rumour has it some of the musician wives w/clout were able to shut the site down. :shrug: various recreations of the original have sprouted up here and there, but they've all paled in comparison. :(

[ismnotwasm]

22. The what were they called?

Plaster Casters, I think, from the '60s? The ones that made plaster castings of Male genitalia (with their full consent of course) I read that Jimi Hendrix was most accommodating. AND impressive. I always admired those women for some reason. I always wonder who has the plaster of Jimi these days, if it's in a private collection somewhere if it still exists.

My problem with them is not the sexual freedom, I'm all for that, but the disrespect for other women involved, which isn't true freedom. Now, a male celebrity certainly has a choice in this matter so, where to put blame, I don't know.

Groupies are a law unto their own, but some of the less attractive ones pay a heavy price.


One of the saddest and more disgusting and degrading account I read was from Marilin Manson's autobiography. I can't remember, it was either a spitting contest to reach the girls anus or throwing slices of Bologna at it. Something gross like that.

And then there's always the famous Led Zeppelin 'fish episode'

[bliss_eternal]

23. ah yes....

...I remember her story:

http://www.cynthiaplastercaster.com/
Apparently she still has some of them, that she displays (by request) at interested museums. There was a legal battle for the others, not sure if she was able to obtain those or not (check out her site, and google her for more).

Manson (Marilyn) is a vile, pig. :grr::mad:
I haven't read his biography, but did read of a scenario involving the backstage demands made on groupies and it involved froot loops. :puke:

Very degrading, sick and sad. Those stories piss me off...and make me wonder about the mental health of the women who allow themselves to participate in such things.

Guns and Roses Rocket Queen story, really pissed me off. :banghead:
The lead singer miked the studio and convinced the drummer's gf/band groupie to have sex w/him (to be recorded on the album)....for the "good of the band" (and lots of Jack Daniels). The result can be heard on the song Rocket Queen.

http://www.iconvsicon.com/2008/12/15/tales-of-a-rocket-queen-an-interview-with-adriana-smith/

[bliss_eternal]

5. Recently noticed it again after being invisible to men...

...having lost a substantial amount of weight, over a long period of time. My goal in changing my diet, wasn't to alter my appearance. My goal was to correct a health issue, nothing else helped. I was w/in normal range for my height, size, etc. when I started this.

But, i'll be honest that several years ago, I was much heavier(overweight for a period). During that time, I'd got used to not dealing w/any "dude energy." I was invisible to men, and enjoyed not having to deal w/that.

It was weird (and jarring) to go out for the first time in smaller clothing, and suddenly be in that realm again. To enter a store and be approached (immediately)by sales dudes....with smiles. Catching men gazing into my crotch (not so subtly). :scared: I HATE that I now ONLY feel safe going out when accompanied by my husband....or wearing clothes that are far too big for me.

I'm also kinda' pissed off, as I shouldn't be dealing w/this crap at this point in my life. One of the pleasant by products of aging, is also becoming invisible. Unfortunately, another (unexpected) result of my nutritional changes....I look younger than I am....:eyes: Not that this matters in these days of young dudes thinking "cougars are cool." :eyes:

A bit off topic, but the size and beauty thing is a friggin' myth.

For me having size brought a certain feeling of safety, I'd never felt as a smaller woman. Yet, it also brought rather obvious disdain from men and some women. At the same time, I experienced more camaraderie from other women, who seemed to feel a bond based on appearance. They seemed to feel they could relate to me.

But now as a petite woman, the presumption from some women is that I don't eat at all...or not enough...or have some sort of problem w/food...exercise all the time, etc. :eyes: :shrug:

[seabeyond]

7. firstly, i was single lots of years, all over the west. reno i worked nights and played the rest of

the night... like i said, been dealing with for three decades and never is it a place of fear and certainly not a need to have a hubby. if you can, dont live that. confidence... independence, wonderful stuff, even in marriage. a goal, beyond the weight.

and there is something to be said about people, especially women, that chose weight to shield. i think that is a big psychological component to a lot of the womens weight issue. a protection

good for you for your lifestyle change

[bliss_eternal]

8. it's great that you feel that way...

...but kindly don't dismiss my experience, and adjustment to living in a different body. don't dismiss me--because i mention i'm married now...and yes, sometimes do feel safer going out w/my husband. married or not, you have no idea what my life has consisted of up to this point. i'd appreciate it if you could be respectful of that...and not presume based on what i chose to share (or not share here)...

anyone who watches the news knows of a situation where a woman did everything right (day or night) and was still attacked.

i should not have to say that i too, was single many years and lived alone (and have the battle scars to prove it) to be taken seriously in this discussion. but fyi, i have stories of experiences from many years of taking public transporation--day and night in large cities, that i'm quite sure few here could relate to.

so kindly don't downplay what a strange man staring at my crotch, feels like for me (or how i deal w/it). i find your accusation that i'm unncessarily playing the "husband card" insulting and presumptious. you don't know me or what i've lived through...thank you very much.

after having lived as invisible to men, the experience of having someone staring intently at one's crotch is jarring, unexpected, and more than a little creepy. but thanks for the empathy and compassion, all the same.








edited in an attempt for clarity.

[seabeyond]

9. certainly not a dismissal, more

a hope that you can work thru it and not have to experience fear.

the best to you on that.

[bliss_eternal]

11. the reality is....

...some men ARE predators.

i don't think having an understanding of what a creep who glares beween women's legs is capable of is unnatural, unwarranted or irrational.

do i walk around scared all the time? no.
i merely said that given a choice, i'd rather be accompanied by my mate, than not.

[ismnotwasm]

20. It is creepy

Although I've had some lovely, appropriate and random compliments pain to me in my lifetime, those are the rarities. A women who walks alone HAS to have out of the ordinary defense mechanisms either physical or emotional. We don't get to walk through life with complete comfort. One of the joys of being older, IS that comfort. Having it, reveling in it. I'm not invisible yet, but I gotta a big FUUUUUCK YOU to assholes who thing staring at my body is a type of ownership, of a different type than when I was younger. I'm starting not to care. Really and truly not to care what someone else thinks of my body, male or female. That doesn't mean I'm less vigilant.

Where I work we have a shitty and unsafe parking situation for nurses, one that's going to get worse (I'm going to raise hell with the union about it, but that's another story) The hospitals response? Offering shuttles to the farther parking areas and security escorts. It's not nearly enough, but my point is, why is this necessary in the first place? Because most nurses are women.

(My husband sure cares about other men, poor baby. Him "That guy was checking you out" Me "No he wasn't--- you want that I should go kick his ass?" Him; gives whoever 'the look' and an occasional "can I help you?" I laugh because it's funny to me, at the same time comforted by his protectiveness and love. He knows I can care for myself.)

[ismnotwasm]

17. I dunno

My weight has actually redistributed itself. At 48, I actually GOT A BELLY. It's like a fucking tumor. Not part of me. And it's really not very big. I'm so used to being in very good shape I'm still stunned. Of course, I had quit working out, quit my power walks and had been under a stressful time of life. A belly. Fuck. A year later, I'm very close to menopause, well, a few years away judging by my mother, I'm deciding what I want to do about it. My belly that is. I'm gonna welcome menopause with open arms.

Anyway, I understand about playing, I never did that for marriage either. Somewhere between 20 and 30 I realized I had principals that had to do with sexual fidelity or so-called 'morality' only that I really, really dislike hurting others, and sex is a powerful weapon to do that with. I also realized I was not on an equal sexual playing field with men no matter how much I fucked, or didn't fuck. I'm sadly, NOT bisexual. As far as fear, I suspect ways we deal is to replace it with some sort of strength (I have a tough persona)or anger (yuck, not healthy to live in anger)because it's a tough old world out there.


(In fact, I was never going to get married. My husband and I-- who have a real love story that's still going on-- kind of ended up married, because we did the Brady Bunch (from hell) thing

[ThomCat]

24. I've been reading and re-reading this thread

wondering if I have anything intelligent to contribute...

The fact is, Male Gaze exists, and it's a damned powerful thing. It's probably the first thing any guy has to learn to overcome to deal with women as equals. And it's a hard habit to break.

Even as a gay man, you get trained to notice women's breasts. You get trained to look down at women's bodies. So how does that training Happen? It's not explicit.

Part of is is that our culture insists that we have to know how attractive a woman is. I can't tell you how often I've been talking with a guy about something, and mention a women, it doesn't matter what the topic is, and he will interrupt to ask, "what does she look like?" Or "is she cute?"

As a couple of you have already posted, the cut of women's clothing often empathizes "look here." Men's clothing is often blockier, used to hide, while women's clothing is used to reveal and showcase. I was a naturist for a bunch of years, back before my disability. Meaning I hung around on nudist camp grounds and beaches. I often noticed that bikinis drew a lot more attention to your breasts and crotch than just being nude. Being nude was, in many ways, more modest because the clothing showcased and highlighted where the eye should go.

But even looking someone in the face can be wrong. Looking someone in the eyes is usually a sign of aggression, and many women become very uncomfortable by this much more quickly than many men. So learning where to look so that someone is comfortable can be a learning experience. Looking slightly over someone's shoulder, or at their mouth, or at their hands if they like to gesture as they speak, etc.

Where to look is not a simple issue. It is definitely something every guy needs to know is a serious issue, a source of serious offense, and something that takes some attention and practice.

Just like the skill of Listening, the thinks you grow up thinking are automatic usually aren't. We have to learn to do these things right.

[ismnotwasm]

25. Interesting thoughts

True about the clothes and women. On the other hand, I have breasts dammit. I neither enhance them or hide them, they just are.

This is a bit OT as well, but I've probably mentioned before on my unit we take care of breast reconstructions after mastectomies due to cancer; specifically one called a DIEP. What's kind of funny is everybody, males, females, nurses, doctors, and surgeons, use the 'flagging' method to describe the breasts. We wave our hands around our breast area in square or circular motions, often both, when teaching or learning about this particular surgery and the after care.
The first time I listened to a surgeon give an education day lecture and watched him do this flagging, I thought how funny, it's like he understands. Men don't truly, I don't think, but I've seen the plastic surgeons do truly beautiful and thoughtful work on this population of women.

I think people like to look at each other, and I wish it was easier and safer and more innocent. Right now we have a young resident who looks like a young Rob Lowe and we're all looking at him every chance we get. The Male Gaze, however is more than a giggling glance, too often it's a destructive, possessive/ownership thing.

My thing is, I expect grown men to be grown ups. They're not 'dogs' or like 'little boys' or whatever label we excuse them with. They grown. They should know what decent behavior is without having to be told off so often. And I think they do, they just don't give a shit, and they don't have to give a shit. Perhaps--this is my hope,that that's slowly changing, so we can love and enjoy one another without so much baggage.

(BTW I've always been comfortable naked, but never did the nudist thing)

[redqueen]

26. I love your posts, Thom.

:)

Just wanted to say that looking at each other is natural. Guys don't wear fancy clothing but I do check out their asses. It's just something we do... nobody conditioned me to like men's asses... I just do. Same with shoulders, backs, arms, etc. We are sexual creatures, and not every instance of us checking out each other's bodies or faces is predatory... sometimes it simply is appreciative and not meant to be creepy. It can be taken as creepy when it's not meant to be, either due to the receiver of the look having been traumatized or the looker being unaware of the vibes they're sending, and that is unfortunate... but it's not really the gist of what I was going for in this thread.

The Male Gaze... that's the thing that's reinforced by the media... the thing that makes it so that a woman's looks are so important. We see it so often... we routinely praise women for looking good... for having plastic surgery that's well-done... this is something that's done sparingly with men, IMO because it's just not drummed into our heads that that's what men are 'meant for' so to speak.

[ismnotwasm]

27. I met a man

Nice enough looking man, tall, with exceptionally wide shoulders, nice arms. Good body, not spectacular. It was the shoulders that did it. I was surprised at how attractive I found that. I was like; Damn. (And checking out butts--well of course)

Artistically I like faces, so the symmetrical or somewhat asymmetrical perfection (ala Angela Jolie)some faces achieve fascinate me.

My husband is like part of my soul, so I don't always think of what he looks like, isn't that funny? He was so sexy cute when he was younger, now he's a bear. (And still sexy cute, although a lot grayer with a belly) And I agree we ALL look, and we should admire one another and be able to do it in a healthy way.

The Male Gaze we're talking about here is NOT healthy admiration, it's media driven bullshit, you are so right about that.

[bliss_eternal]

28. Well, if looking at men....

....becomes wrong, I don't wanna' be right. ;) (hypocrite that I am) :P

But back to the topic at hand....
You simply don't hear the following said about men:
"Isn't he aging well?" or "He looks good, for his age."
But how often do we hear the above comments about women? ...yeah, everyday.

I see articles (far too often), on msn's front page telling women how to "Dress more age appropriately" or "Spice up your Style" and other crap like that. But I'm waiting (seemingly in vain) for the same to be written about men. :eyes:

[redqueen]

29. Exactly.

Women are routinely praised or ripped apart for their looks... it's so commonplace that I doubt many people even question it, or why men don't get the same treatment.

[bliss_eternal]

30. When I've attempted....

...to point that out, particularly here (on du) most don't want to go there.

I'm not sure if it's that most are so entrenched in this just "being the way it is" (status quo) or a more active form of denial...:shrug: ...either way, it's more than a little irritating to see so few even willing to look at the issue or discuss it.

:(

[iris27]

31. I have serious problems with it.

All the more because I'm bisexual, and I know damn well that *I* don't look at attractive women like that. The extreme sense of entitlement, and the casual air with which it's used, are just astonishing to me.

I don't have many personal run-ins with it, because I am pretty unavoidably "thick" - big and built when I work out, and just big when I don't. My size works fairly well as asshole repellent.

[bliss_eternal]

32. great description...

quote:
All the more because I'm bisexual, and I know damn well that *I* don't look at attractive women like that. The extreme sense of entitlement, and the casual air with which it's used, are just astonishing to me.

[BlueIris]

33. Asshole repellent is an awesome expression, and you may consider it stolen. nt

[seabeyond]

34. male dominence. i think that is the difference. i have been thinking about this

and i have recently had an experience. going to a small town, mostly mexican. and in their culture there is certainly the mentality of male dominance. i got lost in this little town. old and young male and all in between gave me that male gaze. to the point of leaving the town i was so pissed. i am old. i am not young and hot. what i reduced it to, is a look of male dominance and that is why it pisses off and feels uncomfortable. a big fuck you to these men.

[tishaLA]

38. can I ask for a definition of the term?

The male gaze as I understand it is a concept Laura Mulvey originally discussed in her famous article "Visual Pleasure and Narrative Cinema" and is derived from Lacanin theory (both the theory of the gaze, which I believe appears in Four Fundamental Concepts of Psychoanalysis, and Lacan's assertion that woman is a symptom of man). I haven't read the essay in years, but my recollection is that the male gaze functions in two ways: that narrative film puts the viewer implicitly in the position of a male viewer (from this vantage point, Rear Window is the quintessential film of the male gaze: it is a film in which we, in the position of the male viewer, watch someone engaging in his position as the male viewer) and that the gaze is fetishistic. I believe Mulvey argued that the gaze is inherently phallocentric, as well, but I might be wrong about that, and that there is a difference between the look and the gaze.