Reply #97: Apples and Ping Pong Balls [View All]

[Tom Rinaldo]

I am responding to the statement in your post above that "A hell of a lot of terrorists use actions like the murder of civilians by American forces in Kosovo to get new members and encourage hate for the US." and I beg to differ. All cases of civilian deaths in the course of the use of American military power don't provide fertile ground for terrorists to get new members and encourage hate for the U.S. World War II didn't for an obvious example. Neither the French of the Germans hate us for the civilian deaths that occurred in Europe in that war. Of course you use the term "murder", not killing, of civilians. The fire bombing of German cities might be viewed by many as the murder of civilians (might be viewed that way by me, waging war is a complex and bloody proposition), still America was not hated in the aftermath, nor did anti American terrorists proliferate.

I know your feelings about the NATO bombing of Milosevic's Belgrade TV station. I have seen you call Clark a war criminal for that many times on many threads, even though an international investigation of the NATO bombing campaign around Kosovo brought no charges against NATO's political or military leaders, while Milosevic is now on trial as a War Criminal. However, though we disagree strongly on that issue, an honest debate regarding specific uses of military power and possible war crimes can always be held, and NATO's campaigns in Yugoslavia can be looked at in the course of such a debate. But that is not what I am responding to, nor am I interested in returning to that specific debate with you here now. I only made note of it to acknowledge that your sentence did specify "murder of civilians" rather than the "killing of civilians" as an incitement to terrorism, and I do note that that is what you have accused the U.S. and Clark of doing in that war.

Despite our strong disagreement and different positions, I think it is relevent, given your statement, to look at the facts regarding the true aftermath of the "murder of civilians in Kosovo" as you call it, and how that has effected American security, and perceptions of the U.S. throughout the world. I believe the comparison between how U.S. security has been effected by the invasion of Iraq compared to the NATO bombing campaign in the Kosovo war belies the premise of your statement regarding terrorist's responces to U.S. military actions. I don't think your blanket statement holds water, and it seems to me a clumbsy attempt to tar Clark with the same brush rightly used against Bush. It is not a "one size fits all" issue.

The terrorists who hate America so much that they crashed planes into the World Trade Center, are muslim "extremists" (our description of course, not theirs, though I feel OK about using it). The United Sates, through NATO, essentially intervened in the Balkins, both in Bosnia and Kosovo, on the side of Muslims in both cases. The bombing campaign that brought deaths in Belgrade killed Christian Serbs, not Muslim Albanians, as one ethnic nationalist commentator that I read so delicately phrased it. And what is the aftermath? The U.S. now enjoys relatively positive relations with the Serbian people and their government, which is now is free ofa corrupt dictatorship, and Christian terrorists from the Balkans are not stalking America.

The Muslims, in the Balkans, are grateful for the U.S. intervention, and that gratitude is still being openly expressed both to the U.S. and to Clark personally. U.S. peace keeping forces in the area are not the subject of constant killings and/or an insurgent campaign to oust them from the region, and the U.S. does not claim any sovereign powers. I would argue that American National Security, in addition to basic human justice, has been advanced, not reduced, through our opposition to etnic cleansing throughtout the entire former Yugoslavia. And I won't even use the clasic NATO expressed rationals (preventing destabalization in the region which would have caused massive refugee dislocation crisis in Western Europe. The need to demonstrate that NATO could effectively respond to a crisis on its door step blah blah. etc. etc.) I think Clark was personally motivated by a moral and humanitarian crisis to press for U.S. military inbolvement, and you I gather think NOT, but this is basically a tangent to my larger point about America's security and the use of our military.

Growing deep hatred for America in the Arab and Muslim world is not a recent trend, though I agree Bush fans those flames. There are many explanations given for the roots of that hatred, but virtually all agree that within the Arab world in particular, there is a growing perception that America has increasingly become a "Crusader" nation, always siding with Jews and Christians over Muslims. Obviously the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is the major flash point, but not the only one. The critique also goes back to the belief that all the U.S. cares about is Arab oil, and American business interests in the region. We are seen as having no concern over how many Arab lives are lost or destroyed by the Arab dictators that we back, or by encroaching Jewish Settlers etc. If you expand the region further you can include Persia, and our backing of the Shah. The U.S. is perceived as being anti-Muslim.

U.S. military actions in defence of Muslims in the Balkans is the only major exception to that pattern. The U.S was actually criticized by Muslim nations and leaders for not intervening earlier and with more force, in Bosnia in particular where muslims were being rounded up into seperate death and rape camps. The U.S. was accused by many in the Muslim world of being indifferent to the suffering of Muslims, especially when no oil was at stake, and that was seen as the reason we stood aside so long and let Muslim civilians be murdered. The eventual American military actions in the Balkans muted that critisism for a time. At least it took the "neglected plight of Bosnia and Kosovo Muslims" off the list of attack points used against the U.S. for always siding against Muslims.

So you see I find your statement "A hell of a lot of terrorists use actions like the murder of civilians by American forces in Kosovo to get new members and encourage hate for the US" to be misleading and misguided. I see a hell of a lot of terrorists using American actions to get new members and encourage hate for the US, yes, but none using U.S. actions in Kosovo for that purpose. Au contraire. Lack of U.S. action in Kosovo woutd have been used by terrorists to get new members and encourage hate for the U.S.