Reply #11: Thanks for the detailed answer. [View All]

[msmcghee]

After reading it over a few times I think you are making two points.

a) Peretz is encouraging the IDF to do as much killing as necessary to get the bad guys and stop the missiles. He encourages them not worry too much about the dead Palestinians who get in the way. You seem to be saying (although I'm not sure) that Peretz, and/or the IDF, are therefore guilty of war crimes for allowing this attitude to exist on the ground that causes unnecessary civilian deaths. Is that what you are saying?

b) The IDF (Israel) is at fault for the deaths anyway because the IDF don't allow the militias to fire from open positions where they could be more easily stopped. i.e. they'd get killed if they fired from more open positions so they have to hide among civilians - so when civilians die it is Israel's fault.

Don't let me put words into your mouth - as others have accused me. I just want to be sure I understand what you're saying so I don't respond to something that you don't really mean.

Re: a) It has been my impression that the IDF is operating in a very dangerous area and it seems to me that with the easy targets and crowded streets that the number of civilian deaths would be much higher if the IDF had the attitude "We shall destroy those responsible and any who stand between us and our targets because the mere fact they stand between us means they are by definition, not innocent, so mow them down without mercy." - as you suggest.

I note that of the 50 or so women who walked into a fire-fight to rescue some terrorists recently trapped in a mosque only two were killed. The pictures I saw looked like they were pretty easy targets, at least to the news photographers. In fact 15 of those terrorists did escape that day ushered away surrounded by that group of women right in front of the IDF. That (one example at least) doesn't seem to support your position.

But, I'm not there and I could be wrong. I'd like to hear what pelsar has to say about the possibility that Peretz has given the IDF carte blanche to kill whoever gets in the way. I'd like to know if he ever was given orders like that by his superiors - and also just what kinds of orders concerning civilians the IDF do get when going on an operation. Do the orders change from operation to operation or are there standing general orders concerning civilians that apply to all operations? Or, maybe that's left up to the officer on the ground with the troops. I don't know. But I'd like to.

In the meantime, I'd like to know if you are just guessing that this is Peretz' attitude that he has conveyed to the troops - or are you aware of some article or something you could offer to substantiate this? Knowing the number of IDF who sometimes refuse to go on certain operations it seems likely to me that if they were given such inhumane orders - covertly or overtly - that some refusenik would have spilled the beans to Haretz by now.

Since you don't offer any evidence I must say that your post comes across as if you are convinced that Peretz is at least a war criminal - therefore he most likely would be guilty of this - and that you don't really have any evidence.

I really don't know myself if the IDF do get such orders. I'll be thinking about your amazing position (unless I misunderstood it) expressed in b) and getting back to you on that.