Reply #29: I appreciate and enjoy your engagement! [View All]

[Vinnie From Indy]

"According to the last Gallup poll, 30% of the Democratic electorate disagree with you. That is not an insignificant number of people."

That is not evidence, and you know it.

I disagree. I think that the Gallup poll as well as Will Pitt's assertion that the email and letter campaign to Congress is having an effect is evidence that there are significant numbers of people that do not feel the last election was fairly held. I also think that number has been growing since 11/3/04.

"In addition to the above mentioned group, John Conyers seems serious about it."

Sorry to report, but John Conyers is taken about as seriously in mainstream political circles as Barbara Lee - that is, not seriously at all. He is considered a bomb thrower from a safe district who can say pretty much anything he wants because there is no chance he will ever lose an election.

I would say that serious is as serious does. I will grant you that Conyers would be taken more seriously if the Democrats controlled Congress but, alas, that is not the case. As I am sure you know, he is not the only Representative that has expressed concern. I think the point you make about bomb throwing from a safe district is EXACTLY what the Democrats need to cultivate as a remedy for the last four years of wishy-washy, milquetoast responses and retreats. Democrats need to realize that their belief in always trying to compromise is what has been killing them.

"You may be right about Kerry, but I think he is wise enough to realize THIS is the closest he will ever get to the brass ring. The odds that fraud will be proved in this last election, in my opinion, are infinitely shorter than Kerry getting another shot in '08."

Well, Kerry has zero chance of attaining the brass ring now, and some slim chance at 2008. He can either throw in with the tin foil hat crowd, or maintain his political viability for the future whether he choses to run or just remain a leader of the Democratic party - I'd guess the later to be true.

If I were whispering in his ear, I would whisper "HILLARY" and then I would ask him again if he wants to spend a little more time untangling this last election.

"YES! The Democrats MUST keep up the pressure on this issue for several reasons. Firstly, they must fight because they said they would. Secondly, they must fight because the issues of fraud, suppression and disenfranchisement will be ignored by the media if we do not fight at this moment in time. We must force the issue of free, transparent and fair elections to the very front of our agenda."

To fight for these things is fine. I am all for it. To fight for these things, that is fraud, suppression and disenfranchisement, out of the belief it is the reason we lost the 2004 election is completely misguided. We are in the information age, and the spotlight on our election process shows how terribly messy it is - but there is no evidence at all it is any worse then usual, nor is there any evidence that Republicans try to game the system and/or cheat any more than Democrats. Do you really believe our Democratic machines in cities like Chicago and Philly haven't added some votes to our tallies here and there. I got a bridge to sell ya if think our party is clean on that front.


I will not deny that both sides have engaged in all manner of chicanery in regard to elections in the past and currently, but I think that because of the introduction of electronic voting, there has been a fundamental shift in the ability to affect fraud on a level we have never faced before in America. That shift added to the "vapor ballot" problem really does present us with a new paradigm in regard to elections and fraud.

"Again, this generalization isn't accurate. There are many that feel Kerry made mistakes AND that there was fraud. The part about getting 'our message across' is just silly. I think most of us realize that we have lost the mainstream media as an honest broker of news and that the 7 or 8 giant conglomerates that run that world are on the BushCo. bandwagon. We must understand the ground we occupy in this struggle. Time is not on our side in regard to forcing recognition of the vote fraud issue."

I take issue with your zeroing in on the media as the problem. I don't see it that way. The media is corporate controlled for certain, but the majority of MSM reporters tend actually to be left leaning. Those who get into journalism programs are more often than not inclined towards progressive ideals, not conservative ones. Conservatives have become a more powerful voice in the alternative media, and in the MSM for sure to some degree, but overall I see the MSM as a wash. Are they far to the right of DU? Sure. But then, DU is not really representative of the political mainstream of America - nor has this boards rather far left of center majority views ever been. For God sakes man, quite possibly a majority of DU even opposed America's attack/invasion of Afghaninstan after 9-11 - that put DU in the slimmest of minority opinion. I find that if you view the MSM in its entirety, it tends to be economically center right, and socially certer left. Overall, a wash.

I strongly disagree with that view of the media as it is today. I think that one need only look at the fact that almost 50% of Americans STILL think Saddam ordered 9/11. That does not happen by accident. A hundred or so million people did not spontaneously have that idea pop into their head. The mainstream media did that and it wasn't by accident. I will go even further and state that the mainstream media is now so corrupted that if there were even a small percentage of them that reported the news over the last few years honestly and accurately, Shrub would have been impeached. If there is one issue that I place on even par with the vote fraud issue, it is that the Democrats HAVE TO change the playing field in regard to the media. I think the "Buy Blue" campaign is the most promising and unique effort in that regard and I fully support it. We must make corporations accountable for backing BushCo. and for using their lobbying clout to buy politicians and write legislation that harms us all. No, I could not disagree with you more on this point.

Look at almost any thread on DU that tries to discuss what the Democratic party should do going forward, and you'll see post after post arguing that Kerry really won and that there is no point in doing much of anything to plot the best direction going forward so long as the voting is "fixed". Ofcourse, no actual evidence is ever given to prove this "fix", but that belief has so taken hold that many refuse to recognize that we were beaten by an inferior candidate and if we don't address the problem it will happen again.

I will agree that Democrats need to conduct a review of the Kerry campaign and I would suggest that they start by getting rid of several of "elite" advisors that urged Kerry to back off of the Swift Boat issue initially. I think that the left is more than capable of pursuing the vote fraud issues while at the same time doing a post mortem on the last election. I will also add that for any meaningful debate to take place about mistakes that were made, the voting data needs to be analyzed and that takes time. We aren't now in a position to confidently chart a course until we have a better handle on what actually happened. I, for one, have a very hard time believing that Bush was able to get 9 million evangelical Christians to come out of their caves and vote for the first time.

I appreciate your thoughts and you make some valid points. Cheers!