Five shot dead in Wis. Hunting Dispute

[American liberal]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&ncid=716&e=5&u=/ap/20041122/ap_on_re_us/hunters_shot

HAYWARD, Wis. - A dispute among deer hunters over a tree stand in northwestern Wisconsin erupted Sunday in a series of shootings that left five people dead and three injured, officials said.

The alleged gunman, a man from the Twin Cities area, was arrested Sunday afternoon at the line between Rusk and Sawyer counties, according to Sawyer County sheriff's officials.

The violence began shortly after a hunting party saw a hunter occupying their tree stand, Sawyer County Chief Deputy Tim Zeigle told KSTP-TV of St. Paul, Minn. A confrontation and shooting followed.

One of the shooting victims radioed back to the deer shack for help, he said. When more hunters came to the scene, they also were shot, Zeigle said.

[ClassWarrior]

1. Link please.

NGU.

[question everything]

30. Here

http://www.startribune.com/stories/462/5097995.html

Wonder whether he carried the orange "sprotsmen for Bush" sticker

[Hard Attack]

41. Whats Next ? Deer Attacking Each Other for Safety?

These Guys shot each other for a Tree Stand.

I take thats one of those things up high, you climb into, have shelter, a place to sit down, and wait for some deer to come out to the food you laid out for them and then take your gun and blow the life out of em.

Yep, saw 'Dale Earnheardt Doing that with Dave Marcus' years ago on the TNN channel, but it wasn't a tree stand, it was a wooden tower built, over looking an open field, and when a 'Buck' would come out of the woods, they'd shoot it.

Real Macho Men I tell ya.

[Hard Attack]

43. I am all for hunting, but that means 'Hunting'

just to set the record straight, I have no problem with Hunting, but that means 'Getting Your Butt in the Woods and Hunt', not laying traps, food for deer or other animals to go eat and then shoot em.

Also = Bear Traps = They are for Pussies. The thought of a Bear Trap, or Beaver Trap, where some poor animal steps on something and it closes in on your leg/paw, na, thats not hunting in My book.

[jdj]

99. I'm all for equal opportunity murder.

guess they found out the hard way that death sucks.

[SittingInTheMiddle]

101. Don't know about anywhere else...

But in Wisconsin, "Baiting" (laying out food for deer) is prohibited. I don't believe this is true in all states, however.

[FM Arouet666]

2. The NRA should be proud. n/t

[PrisonerLazy8]

26. Why should the NRA be proud of the act of a sick person?

Should the NBA also be proud of their latest assualt on the fans in the stands too?

[phylny]

28. Actually,

the NBA handled the situation properly.

I went to an out-of-town wedding this past weekend and I had a conversation with someone who was involved with the NBA until recently. He said, "The fight shows how much the NBA has changed, and if they don't begin enforcing tough rules, and making players and clubs accountable for this type of behavior, they're doomed."

Looks like the NBA agrees:

NEW YORK - Ron Artest was suspended for the rest of the season Sunday, and two of his Indiana Pacers teammates must miss a total of 55 games for fighting with fans during a melee that broke out at the end of a game against the Detroit Pistons.

Overall, the NBA issued some of the harshest penalties in its history by banning nine players for more than 140 games. Artest's suspension is the strongest ever levied for a fight during a game.

"The line is drawn, and my guess is that won't happen again - certainly not by anybody who wants to be associated with our league," commissioner David Stern said.

http://start.earthlink.net/newsarticle?cat=5&aid=D86GMB8O0_story

[Tight_rope]

80. ROTFLMBAO...the "NRA" not the NBA!....lol

[chenGOD]

141. I guess David Stern wasn't around in the 70's.

When Kermit Washington broke Rudy Tomjanovich's face in a whole bunch of different places.

The NBA is not a tough place at all now when compared with the 70's.

Of course, in the 70's the NBA wasn't making hundreds of millions of dollars either....

[FM Arouet666]

40. Just moral hunters out using guns

for the good of mankind. But, realistically, how many deaths will it take for the NRA to realize that a pro-gun stance without any limits is not rational. I am not saying that this particular incident demonstrates the NRA's irrational stance. But, support of large capacity semi-auto pistols/rifles and posturing at every national tragedy involving guns is unacceptable.

Peace

[PrisonerLazy8]

44. No limits?

I don't know what the NRA considers realistic limits but there are many limits on what weapons a normal American can own.

[FM Arouet666]

47. No thanks to the NRA

And you are responding to someone who was a member of the NRA, when I was in my dark ignorant period. They push for unrestricted gun ownership. PERIOD. The NRA would support American ownership of fully automatic machine guns, heavy artillery etc. Anything which deals with restriction on gun ownership, they are against. The NRA sees rational gun restriction as a back-door toward taking away their second amendment rights. Thus, they have adopted a zero tolerance stance toward any gun restriction laws. Sorry, this is counter productive. There has to be a rational comprise, but the NRA will never allow this.

[PrisonerLazy8]

48. Can you point to where the NRA supports the following...

"fully automatic machine guns, heavy artillery etc."

Also, a more precise description of "etc" would help.

[FM Arouet666]

49. Oh Please.....

http://www.nra.org/

When I was a member I recall a drive to defeat the multi clip ban, the assault weapons ban etc. Yes, etc, as in I don't recall all the radical nut case positions that the NRA has taken.

The bottom line is that a peaceful society does not need to have its members armed to the teeth. I suspect you will regale me with the NRA line, America cannot be compared to the rest of the world, guns don't kill people, people kill people and so on. Sorry, deaf ears here. I have owned as many as 50 fire arms at one time. And, I am not advocating an outright ban. What I am saying is that the NRA has become so radical that comprise is not possible. Their no comprise position is radical. Hunters and sport shooters would be better served with a more rational organization.

[FM Arouet666]

58. This was interesting

http://www2.stopthenra.com/

[0007]

77. Did you show up just for this thread?

[Blue Gardener]

72. Assault Rifles

Approved by the NRA for any nutjob who wants one.
And why should these be legal again? Oh yeah, so that nutjob can blow away a whole bunch of people when he's pissed off about his stupid deer stand.

[VivaKerry]

50. I am all for gun control and totally against the NRA, BUT

and this is a big ass BUT:

This is an example of americans bludgeoning, murdering, massacring americans -- or, really, pretty much anyone they see as getting in the way.

This goes beyond gun control issues.

It's about our collective consciousness... and the news is NOT good.

[FM Arouet666]

You are right

it goes beyond gun control. This is about Americans resorting to cowboy tactics to settle an argument. They just happen to be armed to the teeth. I agree, when people see deadly force as a rational solution to a simple argument, we have a problem. The governments preemptive strikes and general disregard for the opinions of the rest of the world, fuels this behavior.

Just as the GOP claimed that Clinton was responsible for every example of moral decline, is not Bush, responsible for every act of unrestrained aggression?

[auburngrad82]

87. 2nd Amendment rights in action. And five freepers down...

51 million to go.

[puddycat]

113. I don't understand that kind of logic.

You see, the way I see it, the whole of the left better wake up when it comes to the 2nd amendment. I just don't understand the reluctance of so many on the left to embrace one of the amendments that our founding fathers thought was so important they placed it right after freedom of speech.

[sybylla]

157. By all means, celebrate that five people were murdered protecting

their own property from a trespasser.

If you knew how many people hunt in Wisconsin and how many voted for John Kerry, you would know you were talking out your ass, auburngrad82.

But it is so much easier to feel your right when you can belittle the "oppostion." Problem is, you don't have a clue who the opposition is and you most certainly have no clue who these people are.

[radwriter0555]

91. Think of it as defining the gene pool a LITTLE more sharply. I kinda wish

these types of idiots would kill each other off just to protect the rest of us.

[sybylla]

154. 3 men, a woman and a child definitely qualify

as "these types of idiots." Five people are dead and all you can say is "good riddance?"

I find your response more than a bit sad.

[agingdem]

3. Remember..

guns don't kill people...people kill people. Riiiight!

[alittlelark]

8. 'people use guns to kill people'

is the correct 'turn of phrase'.
:puke:

[Tuttle]

85. Or.....

guns don't kill people...Texas governors kill people.

Tut-tut

[brooklynite]

4. Good thing they all had guns to defend themselves...

[EST]

63. Yep-

made all the difference in the world, didn't it? Vang probably went after the others becaust they had the REALLY big guns at home, hidden, that they could activate on forty-five minutes' notice, were intent on dominating the region, and didn't have such a muscular god!

[lapfog_1]

5. But remember

Guns don't kill people.

People WITH GUNS kill people.

[American liberal]

6. If your read the whole story, the hunters say at the end

that they're not going to let the fact that 5 of their buddies were murdered keep them from the rest of their hunting trip...

Unbelievable...

ON EDIT: I think it was a different hunting party that said they're not going to cut their trip short. sorry.

[lebkuchen]

18. This is just another day of "Life in America"

Why is there a need for change of plan?

[Champ]

75. They need help

And they should NOT be possessing firearms. The fact that quite a few guns get in the wrong hands has me scared, it makes you want to get a gun. I won't because I choose not to deal with the extra lethal responsibility.

[Skittles]

7. does anyone find this quote ironic?

“When you’re hunting you don’t expect somebody to try to shoot you and murder you,” he said. “You have no idea who is coming up to you.”

[faithnotgreed]

10. why would anyone think people with guns would actually shoot?

that thought is just out of nowhere

sarcasm off

[Skittles]

12. the hunters becoming the hunted

the irony completely escapes them

[Endangered Specie]

52. very sick irony...

but irony nonetheless.

[daleo]

15. If the deer could talk, they would say:

Well, duh...

[ewagner]

9. Holy Sh$t!!!!!!

A bunch of people from here are hunting in that area!!!! This is why I gave up hunting 20 years ago. When people start taking shooting deer so seriously that it ruins friendships divides families and NOW kills others....it's just too much.

[The Doctor.]

13. I hear you. I try not to drive near woods on opening day.

85% of hunters are responsible sportsmen.

That leaves a VERY dangerous 15% out there who I would rather not encounter.

That's why I bowhunt turkey.

[cliss]

25. I agree. These guys are lunatics.

There was a story about 2 years ago in Oregon. Some hunter had shot a deer with horns (sorry, I'm not a hunter!). He cut off the head because he wanted to take a trophy home.

He was walking through the woods carrying the head. Another hunter saw what he thought was a deer. He shot the "deer". Killed the hunter dead.

Lunatics. You take your life into your hands when you're out there with hundreds of other "pros".

[Occulus]

42. cliss: deer w/horns = buck

Just so's ya know the word :)

[EST]

64. And he who has a wad of "bucks"

is certainly in the "doe." (Yuck, ugh. Sorry, couldn't resist!)

[uncle ray]

111. actually a deer with horns would not be a deer

deer have antlers, not horns. i can't help it, i had a teacher in high school who made damn sure you knew the difference between horns and antlers! nope, i never forgot!

[PrisonerLazy8]

27. Where did you get those stats?

Can you show the study that claims 15% of hunters are not responsible sportsmen?

[Sterling]

69. I would say since over 15% of the gen pop is nuts

The figure is probably greater with gun owners.

[The Doctor.]

143. The 15% number is really from personal experience...

about one out of six hunters I have known would take almost any shot - whether good or not, put orange *only* on their gloves, and in more than one case, I'm sorry to say, have pulled loaded guns in public to 'show off'.

And I live in a 'blue' state.

{typo}

[NervousRex]

148. Spoken like someone...

who has never spent any time in a northwoods deercamp.

[newyorican]

29. 15% of the hunting population...

being somewhat nutty is not a plus. OTOH, that number has decreased by at least 5...

In 2001, 13 million people hunted in the US. By your 15% statistic, that places 1,950,000 nutty gun nuts roaming the country during hunting season. A few too many for my liking.

[buddysmellgood]

45. Bow

Sadly, there was another story in the news about a bow hunter who shot his partner in the neck. Quite accidental, but he shot through the car window and through the guy's neck. He survived.

[Old and In the Way]

131. And closing day...........

People are a little more anxious to bag that deer.......

[Cooley Hurd]

33. A new form of "Buck Fever..."

...just shoot at anything that moves and speaks!:evilgrin:

[VivaKerry]

53. LMAO. n/t

*

[Endangered Specie]

ohhhh sick sick sick

:spank: :spank:

[The Doctor.]

11. I have no problem with guns... but too many Morons have them!

I like sport-shooting. I'm a responsible gun owner- I keep mine at the range, not in the house.

The problem is that too many dumbfucks are compensating for what amounts to a lack of potency in life. They get guns to feel more powerful because they don't feel powerful in their own life.

$20 says they 'were' self-described 'conservatives'.

[bunkerbuster1]

112. Just me, or is a deer stand a lame-ass method?

I know it's common practice among deer "hunters" to hide in a stand, but I coulda sworn once upon a time that hunters actually, you know, stalked their prey.

Or maybe everything I learned about deer hunting in "The Deer Hunter" was phony. Who knows.

[sybylla]

129. Yep, it was phony

Stalking would be silly and a shitload of work for no reason. You find a trail in the woods where they habitually pass an wait for them to come by - hence, a deer stand either in a tree or on the ground.

It would be silly and far less safe to try to stalk a deer. Surprising a deer is difficult and when you do, you've got no time to make sure you're making a safe shot.

Hunters only stalk in movies.

[bunkerbuster1]

133. "One shot" - that's phony too?

I guess that's why one might want a thirty-round clip.

(I only did some fowl hunting with a shotgun, many moons ago.)

[sybylla]

153. No, you can get a deer in one shot

but not likely by stalking them. One shot is all you have an you have no time for proper aiming. Stalking an animal, you're more likely to wound it and not very fatally.

In a stand, when the deer approach at a walk, I've taken deer with one bullet on more than one occasion.

[Blue_Tires]

137. i had a friend of mine that tracked deer

for 20 years (at least he said he did; I never went hunting with him)...Even though he's been shot once by other hunters, he insists it safer to track and use stealth than to be with some of the more trigger-happy weekend warriors

[TX-RAT]

136. hunters actually, you know, stalked their prey.

History shows us several different methods of hunting, the Native Americans used, one was hiding in trees, stalking was also used but not as effective. Many times large groups would get together and drive the animals out of the woods. In the case of the Native Americans in TX, when hunting Buffalo, they would form large groups and chase the Buffalo over cliffs. I guess what I'm trying to say is, The native American used what ever method was most productive or efficient.

[Romulus]

146. deer stand = hunter safety

Let me help you out by answering your Q:

Deer stands do 2 things:

1) have you in one spot so you're not wandering around at risk of getting shot by someone else wandering around

2) have you shooting toward the ground, so you bullet doesn't run the risk of traveling beyond your line of sight. That way it doesn't go flying up over the hill and down in the next valley.

Hope that helps! :hi:

[Ed C. Finley]

14. As regards to the shooter

Remember, diversity is our strength.

[LeighAnn]

17. Welcome Mr. Finley!

Glad you made it!

[American liberal]

16. I'm willing to bet alcohol was involved, too eom

[Shae]

23. I'm sure someone, somewhere ...

has concluded that it's Clinton's fault

[Old and In the Way]

135. Anyone been to hunting camps knows that is part of the "tradition"

A little Wild Turkey takes the chill out of the morning. I went with a bunch of guys to a camp in Northern Maine about 20 years ago. I was designated cook. It was a drunkfest. One of the guys let off a round when a few guys were taking a leak out back....just to be funny. Last time I went.

[2cents]

19. What's the legal limit? n/t

[American liberal]

20. In IL it's 0.08. I don't know about WI

[AllyCat]

90. BAC is 0.08 in WI now too.

Deer limit? I thought it was only one animal per season.

[pnorman]

22. That one cracked me up!

I'll be sure to use it.
pnorman
on edit: I assumed he meant "how many am I allowed to shoot"

[American liberal]

24. oh, the legal deer-popping limit?

And obviously I was thinking about the legal alcohol limit. oops... :)

[blue sky at night]

21. don't mean to be a jerk....

but one group that is exceedingly happy tonight are the deer. they must have a very low opinion of mankind, hanging around 15 or 20 feet up in a tree waiting for a deer to walk by and get blasted. i know a lot of families put food on the table with the kill, but this is just sad that someone would turn the gun on another hunter......man. i guess we should all temper our words when there is a guy with a 12 gauge in his hands, and probably a number of shots of brandy in his gut. i hope the NRA folks have trouble sleeping tonight, their system failed. Sportsmen for Bush are you listening?

[PrisonerLazy8]

32. Need more data

What NRA system faild here? A link to the report where deer have an opinion with respect to mankind would be a nice start too.

[Sterling]

70. I say we should poll all the dead Holocaust victims to see what they..

thought of Nazi's. Well we can't but I bet we can assume it was not favorable. I doubt the dear think much of hunters. It really is to bad we can't ask them.

[RetroLounge]

78. Are all your posts just in this thread?

Hmmmm.

RL

[Bake]

36. Putting food on the table??

Maybe so. But how much did they actually SPEND for that food? A friend of mine just bought a $1,000 scope for his $1,000 rifle to hunt deer. And that's just for the gun itself. There's other geat involved as well. I think that $2K would have bought a LOT of meat ...

I'm not knockin' hunting. But the old saw about "putting food on the table" is bullshit, and people should be honest enough to admit it.

Bake

[Endangered Specie]

37. I believe they score it by how many points they have

on their antlers, no.

Im guessing they arent eating the antlers.

[RebelOne]

67. Of course "putting food on the table" is bull shit

Most of the time it's all about trophy hunting. And of course, the thrill of the kill. As you can see, I am totally anti-hunting. And don't say as some will, that I eat meat, don't I. No I don't eat meat. I am a vegetarian.

[blue sky at night]

76. oh well, its all bullshit.

my uncles are all hunters and ya they eat the meat, but you know better.

[RebelOne]

84. Of course, the majority of hunters eat the meat.

But they are not just hunting to put food on the table. They are also hunting to put a head on the wall.

[SittingInTheMiddle]

140. Tell that to the people

who will be receiving some 1/4 of a million pounds of ground venison this year.

Yup, since 2000 over 24,000 deer have been charitably donated, resulting in over 1 million pounds of food.

Edit: This is just in Wisconsin. Don't know if the same is happening elsewhere.

[sybylla]

134. About $300 per year

and if everything goes well, that fills the freezer.

Don't judge all hunters by your friend who is obviously trying to compensate for having a small penis. I use a gun that was my father's and is 30 years old, hunting clothes at least 10 years old, I sleep in a camper that I purchased for recreational use. The only regular expenses I have each year are the licenses for my family, the extra laundry expense, and the fuel to travel and heat the camper.

But you don't have to take my word for it. I'm just a dumb hunter.

[VivaKerry]

54. A lot of families put food on their tables.

I don't know, but I seriously doubt there are all that many "hunters" who come from the lower 15% economic income scale out hunting to feed their families. I just don't see what are mostly urbanites catching a bus for the country to FEED their families.

No, these are families who can well afford FOOD for their families tables. They just choose to hunt. All good and fine. I love a good venison steak. But it isn't my LAST choice.

Hunter and gatherers, my ass. These dudes love to kill. And that's all I have to say about it.

Putting food on their families' tables. Let's nix the dickens novelesque portrayal. Geeze.

[Sterling]

71. We already killed most of the people who hunted for food.

The were called Native Americans. The only rednecks I know that hunt are the ones who can afford the guns and ammo and toys that you take with you hunting. they usually get that money from a job not trading furs and hides at the trading post.

[RebelOne]

127. You are right. It is definitely the thrill of the kill.

"Hunter and gatherers, my ass. These dudes love to kill. And that's all I have to say about it."

I work for a hunting and fishing magazine, even though I am anti-hunting (hey, it's a job). Because of the nature of my job (copy editing), I have to read very graphic first-person hunting stories. You are 100% correct that these dudes love to kill. They all relate how they get a huge rush of adrenaline after they have shot a buck.

[Endangered Specie]

31. Score one for the deer.

(snip) "When you're hunting you don't expect somebody to try to shoot you and murder you," he said. "You have no idea who is coming up to you."

...

Gee Ill bet the deer feel the same way pal.

:eyes:

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

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[Endangered Specie]

38. And to think...

I can offend someone with out cursing, swearing or any deragatory suggestion; I must be getting good.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

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[Endangered Specie]

51. I think you misinterpreted something...

I was simply looking at things from the deer's perspective.

Im certainly not praising violence, which, incidentally, is why I vehemently oppose hunting. Unfortunately, people usually misinterpret what I say, but I will say this, and belive me, if I was advocating it I would have said so directly up front.

In the mean time, let us examine some lighter irony...

"That's almost as bad as the religious nuts on Free Republic, who spout that this sort of thing happens to the wicked."... "You're the one that should be shot"... hmmm, ye who throw rock in glass house.

[VivaKerry]

56. LOL.... a sweet little deer used in place of swearing.

who would have thunk? LMAO.

[Endangered Specie]

57. yeah...

Imagine how bad it would be if I WAS trying to offend people.

[VivaKerry]

59. You, my friend, should be CAREFUL out there...

Our little private weapon. :-)

I feel bad for the offended one. I mean, hunters are not bad people. Bad people with guns are disastrous. He shouldn't take it so seriously.

[VivaKerry]

55. Please re-read the post....

He says the DEER are amused. SOMEONE doesn't apply to humans. Gee, hope you didn't puke too very much.

And we all know sentient beings have no sense of humor.


It's called sarcasm.

[NVMojo]

35. Deliverance in Wisconsin? I'm shocked!!

[RivetJoint]

73. The shooter was from Minnesota...

[buddysmellgood]

46. We have our share of "defects" in Wisconsin.

Well, actually more than our share. We make the headlines in the Enquirer far too often and the reports are typically accurate. I should point out, however, that a HUGE number of people from Illinois come north to hunt in Wisconsin.

[MnFats]

60. This is going to create a real shitstorm of trouble...

...
If i read the story correctly, the name of the shooter appears to be Hmong or Vietnamese.
Large numbers of Hmong have resettled in communities like St. Paul and Wausau. There have been stories lately about Asian immigrants hunting and having a hard time learning the laws/regulations etc. In their home country they did not have to observe limits etc., obtaining permission to hunt on private land and so on.

They have encountered all manner of racist violence since their arrival here. This will only mean more trouble for them, including those who had nothing to do with it. (Remember, we recruited them to fight in the SE Asian war, promised the U.S. side would win and then pretty much abandoned them to their adversaries when we pulled out.)

They probably found an unoccupied deer stand and things went from bad to worse and ultimately to a gunfight when the owner of the deer stand showed up. I'm just speculating but...


by the way, there are families in Wisconsin that hunt "to put food on the table." I can give you details if you wish.

And though hunter ethics have been stressed more in recent years, there are a lot of assholes who find their way into the woods in November. I used to work for a newspaper over there and every fall I'd write stories about some shithead who saw movement in the woods, assumed it was a deer and popped off a few rounds, sometimes wounding, other times killing some poor soul. A lot of "hunters" use deer season as a chance to ditch the wife, go north and spend a few days drunk with their pals in the woods. Most of them city people from Milwaukee and Chicago who had no clue what they were doing.
The chicago Trib used to do stories each fall about the whoring in Hurley and Iron Mountain by guys from the cities who were ostensibly on deer expeditions.

Christ, this is terrible. Joking about it is off the fucking scale.

[slappypan]

103. "Hurley, Hayward, and Hell ..."

was the saying back in the old mining and lumber camp days. Hurley is still nothing but saloons and strip clubs, just as seedy as it was a hundred years ago.

[independentpiney]

105. Alot of Asian immigrants have problems with fish &wildlife regs.

I haven't hunted animals in over 25 years, though I keep my stalking abilities up out of season. But I've heard stories from friends who do hunt, and seen it here many times with blue claw crabs. They'll have baskets of babies as small as 1 inch point to point for making soup (the minimum is 6"). There's definitely a cultural gap to be overcome, and most of the times I've tried to make them aware what they're doing is illegal, a language barrier as well.

This was just an extremely sick individual,his cultural background doesn't come into play. The guy's 36 years old, he was probably either born here or immigrated at a very young age. But like you say his ethnicity will unfortunately be talked up on talk radio and in the sportsman's bars to fuel prejudice against a very unfortunate people.

[MsAnthropy]

155. Thank you for the only sane comment in this thread

The cultural aspects of this get lost by the anti-hunting hysterics. Some of these immigrants can't possibly learn the language, the laws, and all of the minutia that goes into American daily life when they've been sitting in a refugee camp (I don't know if that's the case in this case). It is a true tragedy, not a joke.

I've never been more disgusted by DUers' ignorant, knee-jerk comments than today.

[sybylla]

158. I absolutely agree, MsAnthropy

Disgust is hardly sufficient.

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

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[DoNotRefill]

65. considering that there are several million sks rifles in the US...

I'd say that odds are good that a fair number of liberals own them. I'm pretty sure I've got a few hidden away...

[QC]

82. Sick.

Apparently it's not only freepers who delight in the misfortunes of others.

[Cadence]

62. The hunters are becoming the hunted?

What other Alannis Morissette lyrics are going to come true?

:scared:

[Elminster]

66. My two Cents....

Down here in Louisiana we do hunt deer in the marshes and such....
We are pretty much a safe bunch of hunters and there is hardly any
trouble during hunting season, and most if not all hunt for meat
first and trophy if it happens to be a good deer as well.
Around here I cannot recall anyone hunting with a SKS. Most of us
consider it a trash rifle unfit for hunting. We prefer .30-30,
.30-06, 7mm magnum and such for deer.
In alot of states it's illegal to hunt with any rifle chambered for
the .223 Remington/5.56mm round. It has no stopping power and was
developed to use against varmint, i.e. groundhogs, prairie dogs,
coyote, etc.
I can see weapons built around a frame that was designed for
current military use such as the Colt AR-15, AK-47, SKS etc. being
banned. It was designed to kill humans and not for hunting.
On the flip side I see no problem with owning firearms that are
built for hunting game. That is what it is designed for.
ANY gun/rifle can kill a person dead with the proper bullet
placement. If we allow all guns/rifles to be outlawed then we set
ourselves up to where the only people that will have them are the
criminals because they don't use normal channels to get their
guns anyway(i.e. illegally).
If we outlaw the tool used to commit a crime where will it stop?
People have been known to kill using hammers, golf clubs, knives,
baseball bats and even automobiles......are we going to outlaw them
as well?
Don't hate the tool.....hate the person that used the tool in the
wrong manner. A gun/rifle is a dumb machine. It can't aim itself
and it can't pull it's own trigger. It takes a person to operate
the tool.
There are my rambling 2 cents on the deal.
Peace.

[byronm]

88. Nothing against guns...

Just hatred towards the people that are ignorant about there use such as this folks who decided to shoot each other over a trophy deer stand..

wondering if they were sniffing too much stump licker.

[sybylla]

145. It was not a dispute over the stand

It was a dispute over hunting on private property. Though there are very few details in the story, it appears the shooter did not have permission to hunt on the land and shot the land owners when they tried to speak with him. Out of fairness, I've read three different reports on the story to glean this.

There's no word yet, but I'm sick thinking that some nutcase just wiped out five members of the same family five days before Thanksgiving. Knowing the "family" tradition hunting is in this state, I wouldn't be surprised to hear the victims range in age from 15 to 75.

Mocking them is really quite low.

[independentpiney]

108. A good 2 cents it is

When I hunted I always used a 30-.06 or 12Ga. for deer and a .22 or .410 for varmint. You follow the old adage of the best tool for the job.

The only job military style rifles are designed for are killing people. Anyone has the right to keep and bear one under the 2nd amendment. Provided they are a member of a well regulated militia, keep it in a secured location, and only bear it during drills or when necessary to protect the security of a free state. Wait a minute- isn't that called the National Guard?

[R Hickey]

68. This will not be good for future Hmong hunters in Northern Wisconsin

I would not feel very safe if I was a Hmong deer hunter in Northern Wisconsin.

[saigon68]

74. They were good at killing kommunists

They are out to stip-mine our northern woods of Red Necks--- you know neck-car enthusiasts.

[goddess40]

89. I'm missing something?

Was the shooter Hmong? or some of the victims? I haven't seen or heard any reference to race. I'm in Wisconsin and the news hasn't mentioned it.

[goodhue]

106. the alleged shooter is hmong

[NNN0LHI]

156. Is there a large contingent of Hmong hunters in Northern Wisconsin? n/t

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RivetJoint]

81. That's a real liberal

take on it...laugh at the dead. How sick.

[QC]

83. Not all freepers are right wing.

Unfortunately, we have more than our share of them right here.

[cleofus1]

92. please be humane...

Five people are dead...I believe a woman and a child included...let's not forget these were real live human beings who deserve our sympathy. We don't know who they were or how good or honorable they were...so let's not ridicule their deaths.

[Massachusetts]

86. Set the scene: NRA convention 2001

Presidential Medal Of Freedom recipient (chimp awarded it to him) Charlton Heston is on stage, holding a musket over his head, and says "from my cold dead hands." Truly inspiring, I guess those hunters were paying attention. Look out Bambi:silly: :nopity: :nuke:

[Berserker]

96. This has nothing to do

with gun control, rednecks, Liberals, repukes,or Hmong it has to do with one person that went off the deep end and started killing everyone he seen.

[American Tragedy]

93. See, I knew the South wasn't the only place to find belligerant sociopaths

Although admittedly we have our fair share.

[Endangered Specie]

94. Oh, so now they say he used an SKS rifle?!

Damn, that just adds even MORE irony...

I can recall at least TWO threads in the Gungeon about how SKS rifles arent "assault weapons" and how you shouldnt worry about being mowed down by one. I believe they were touting an SKS owners for Kerry dot com website, or something to that nature, unfortunately advanced search is down.

edit: He must have either been a fairly good shot, or was using an extended magazine, 5 dead and 3 wounded means AT LEAST 8 bullets and normal SKS's have 10 rd magazines, and they are integral, stripper clip fed magazines, so he had either good skill with shooting and or reloading the weapon.

[RivetJoint]

97. An SKS isn't an assault weapon

And any decent shot (with a scope) ought to be able to hit 8 out of 10. Face it, this was a screwed up killer. It's not the rifle's fault.

[cleofus1]

98. just a minimum amount of skill needed

This asshole had a deer scope and the high ground. He sighted and shot these people from a distance. They probably didn't even know they were in imminent danger.

[Forkboy]

95. And there was much rejoicing

[MADem]

102. Lord a MERCY!!!

Lookie them UNCHRISTIAN DEER!!!

Why isn't that crazy ass god-hates-fags guy out there protesting this sort of thing!!! Preferably in a cute little antler hat....

[LeftHander]

100. UPDATE link

http://www.nbc5.com/news/3937952/detail.html?z=dp&dpswid=2265994&dppid=65172

[Name removed]

104. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Endangered Specie]

110. Im suprised you havent been flamed bigtime yet...

I took a lot of flack for my post above.

[democracy eh]

107. Back on topic... WTF???

really WTF??? WTF??? WTF???

Why is THIS a deer hunting rifle?????
Where is the challenge??????

from http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2004/11/22/hunters-shootout041122.html

"Both men were wounded and one of them radioed to the cabin. Other hunters responded to the call and were shot, Zeigle said. Some of the victims may have shot back at the suspect, Zeigle said.

The suspect was "sniping" at the victims with a SKS semi-automatic rifle, Zeigle said. He was "chasing after them and killing them," he said.

Among the dead were four males – including a teenage boy – and a woman, Zeigle said. Some of the victims were reportedly shot more than once. Authorities found two bodies near each other and three others scattered around the area, which is near the town of Meteor. Two people who hid in a cabin emerged safely after the shootings.

The suspect was arrested as he walked out of the woods. He was out of bullets at the time, Zeigle"

[Endangered Specie]

109. Oh my word... that looks like a 30 round magazine...

I seem to recall dozens of posts by pro-gunners in the gungeon celebrating (nearly cumming their pants at) the end of the 10 round magazine ban (part of the assault weapon ban).

Will the irony EVER end??

[RivetJoint]

115. Magazines that held nore than ten rounds were NOT banned

by the so-called AWB.

[Endangered Specie]

117. Funny then how Ive noticed many ammunition/ gun sale sites

advertising 20,30,50 and so on round magazines to be legal and on sale after sept 14 2004, and usually shipping in october

and, reassuringly enough, usually sold out or backlogged.

[RivetJoint]

122. One could not manufacture or sell them (dealer to dealer

or dealer to private citizen) Those who already had them did not have them confiscated. Nor was the private to private sale of those magazines prohibited. They were not banned.

[uncle ray]

130. and state hunting regs

which are seperate from the AWB, still limit capacity size. you can own a 30 shot clip, use it for practice etc. but NOT for hunting.

[saigon68]

HOW DO YOU KNOW HE USED A 30 ROUND MAGAZINE ?

And if so so what??

The SKS is loaded with stripper clips of ten rounds. A good competent handler of an SKA can get off 50 rounds in one minute with stripper clips. Don't wish for more than you can.

This story won't go away in WI. I heard at the local cafe this morning that "white" people need "more" guns to protect themselves against the "gooks". Something missed from the local vernacular for a while now-- but apparently soon to make a vigorous return.

[Endangered Specie]

123. and to think this is part of the united states of canada.

a 'blue' state.

Just remember that you pro-gunners are fighting along with those nutjobs.

[saigon68]

144. Dear ES-- actually I am not a NUTJOB

I am a pro-union Democrat, anti-war on Iraq, a sportsman, a decorated Viet-Nam Veteran, and a Kerry supporter.

There are 850,000 deer hunters in WI. Not all of them (us) are necks or right wing-religious Taliborn Agains.

When ashcrofts angels come for us, we will be ready.

[yellowcanine]

116. We don't KNOW that a clip like that was used - lets not go off half cocked

here. First of all - I would be willing to bet that it is not legal in Wisconsin to hunt with a clip that size. Some rifles that are suitable for deer hunting can take different sized clips - and usually there is some limit on round capacity - typically 10 rounds or less - and if I remember correctly from growing up in PA - it is (or was) 6 rounds. Somebody who would use a 30 round clip does not just have deer hunting in mind.

[uncle ray]

128. why not?

the issue isn't what kind of gun he was using, he could have just as easily killed five people with a 30-06 or a 12 gauge shotgun. it makes no difference in the end if he was using a semi auto rifle like the sks, which means that for each squeeze of the trigger, one round is fired, and the next is loaded into the chamber, or he could have been using a bolt action rifle, which a proficient user can operate extremely quick, and is generally going to be a more accurate firearm.

an sks is really no different than a hunting rifle. they are cheap and readily available. yes, information is out there to convert them fo full auto operation, but anyone who does so is risking federal imprisonment just for doing so, even if their intention was just for "fun". yes i know people who have done so, and bragged about it, and i won't even think about shooting ANY gun with those people.

and i'm not familiar with wisconsin laws, but i'm sure their hunting regs limit mag capacity when hunting, so your pic with the babana clip is inappropiate.

[Coventina]

114. ***self delete***

ok, I read the thread, and it isn't the story it first appeared to be.

I am withdrawing my inappropriate comments.

I apologize to anyone I offended.

[yellowcanine]

118. Yes you do. Nothing funny about 5 people killed. Joking about it and

then saying "I have problems" does not make it ok to say it. Sometimes it is best to just keep quiet if you feel the urge to say something that you know is inappropriate. That is called "maturity."

[Endangered Specie]

120. Its quite unfortunate that people died...

I wish they all would have survived and completely recovered
.
.
.
To tell the story of what it feels like to be hunted down like a wild animal, a day in the life of the deer you could call it, a good lesson to be learned, appreciate nature and respect wildlife.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

119. Did Mr Benchley sleep in today?

[Endangered Specie]

121. I havent seen him in a while, but Im sure

he knows about this, lord knows what he'd have to say ;)

[saigon68]

125. Don't worry he'll be here shortly

Then the thread will be locked. As the flame War escalates

[Blue_Tires]

139. yeah, been awhile since i've seen him post

he usually lives for threads like this...hope he returns soon (makes things so much more entertaining)

[Wabbajack]

124. Hunting is so barbaric

if your gonna eat the animal that's one thing but just for sport? :(

[RivetJoint]

126. And this was a case

of which of the above?

[yellowcanine]

138. sport vs. food - not mutually exclusive, imo - Hunters either eat the deer

themselves or give it away to someone (or group) who will. I have some problem with people saying "barbaric". If you are a vegetarian, ok, maybe you have some room to speak. But biologically, humans are omnivores - look at our anatomy (teeth and digestive system). A "clean kill" on a wild animal is not fundamentally different from a beef cow being slaughtered - in fact one could argue that killing a wild animal is more humane than raising an animal to be slaughtered - at least the wild animal got to live free while it was living. Furthermore, in many areas there are no natural predators left and deer populations would get out of control without hunting. When deer populations get too large deer starve to death in the winter. Which is worse, living a relatively good life and dying suddenly from a bullet or living a miserable life in a depleted habitat and maybe starving to death or getting hit on the road by a car and slowly bleeding to death?

[Endangered Specie]

132. CBS link

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/22/national/main656866.shtml

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

142. OK now if guns are for protection...why didn't they just shoot the guy?

It's not as though they weren't armed

[saigon68]

147. I guess

Maybe he was better trained at killing people, given his back ground.

I doubt any of the "dead", were veterans with combat skills.

The vets at the cafe this mornuing, were opining, ( we get together for coffee) that some of them, wished they had a chance to ventilate his "gook" hide. Actually, what they said would get the post deleted.

Please don't delete this post--- It is the actual truth.

[yellowcanine]

150. "trained at killing people, given his background". How so?

The guy is 36 years old, according to the link. So that puts him at 2 years old in 1970. So if he was Vietnamese - which I assume from your "gook" reference, it doesn't appear that he would have been a combatant in Vietnam. Do your vets know something the rest of us don't?

[Romulus]

149. only one gun between the eight people

http://www.wtop.com/index.php?nid=104&sid=338310

"About 20 shots were fired but it was unclear if any of the hunters had fired at the suspect or who might have shot first, Zeigle said. There was just one gun among the eight people killed or wounded, he said."

[usregimechange]

151. Were assult weapons used? nt

[RivetJoint]

152. Technically, no

[Name removed]

159. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SittingInTheMiddle]

161. You have to remember

The term "assault weapon" is a political tool and its use is as hated by firearms owners as was my gaffe in referring to a "partial birth abortion" in another thread (I used to work with a few hardcore fundies and sometimes the terms rub off...).

In fact, unless his SKS was modified, it was specifically excluded from the AWB by definition - SKS do not have a "detachable box magazine" unless they've been modified to have it.

This incident is not an example of why the AWB was needed, rather it's an example of how stupid the law was in the first place.

Banning "assault weapons" was the same sort of stepping-stone legislation as attempting to pass a ban on late term abortion - drum up support for banning the most publically disagreeable form, and once it's accepted, move on from there.

Edit Note: I am firmly against banning either one.

[Moderator]

160. Locking

This thread is no longer providing useful discussion about the incident mentioned in the starting post.
I'm sorry to those of you who did keep it thoughtful and on topic.