Refused Prayer time, Muslims walk off Dell jobs

[DebJ]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7160832/

NASHVILLE, Tenn. - Thirty Muslims, most of them from Somalia, walked off the job at the Dell Inc. because they say the company refused to let them take a break for prayer at sunset.

Muslim workers, who were packaging computers at Dell through a temporary labor agency, are taking the dispute to mediation, both sides said Friday.

Abdirizak Hassan, executive director of the Somali Community Center of Nashville, said the workers walked out of the company's Nashville plant Feb. 4 because they were not allowed to pray.

(snip)
But I bet they let CIGARETTE SMOKERS go out to smoke, right? Sheesh. I had a wonderful Muslim manager working for me, and even though this was a restaurant and dinner rush, I let him go out. And this was just after 9/11. Another manager griped, and I said, okay, then you can't go out to smoke and I'm timing your bathroom visits as well. He dropped the issue. The devotion, humility, dedication, hard work, need to do well of this Muslim manager (and the other three Muslims I have known) leaves me in awe.

[Scout]

1. was it break time?

weather for cigarettes or prayer, if it's a scheduled, mandated break time then take it.

If they want an extra break, or a longer break, whether for cigarettes or prayer, tough. Live by the rules you were hired in under.

edit to add: not picking on the Muslims ... no one should get "extra" breaks for prayer or cigarettes, no matter the religion. If they pre-arrange something with mgt or a union before hiring in, that would be ok.

[lonestarnot]

10. Ewww you sound like an HR type. n/t

[tubbacheez]

12. Actually, they seem to be following your advice.

Walking off the job could be the start of a negotiation.

Taking action today should sometimes count as pre-arranging something for the future.

[LiberalFighter]

64. Concerted activity is protected

[benburch]

19. Man, you are horribly insensitive.

I bet you wouldn't let Jewish people go home before Sabbath on Fridays in the Winter?

[Xithras]

31. Legally, Dell's in a bit of a bind

You can't favor one religion over another in the workplace or it's discrimination. Why does that matter? Because by allowing Muslims to have "prayer time", you also have to allow other religions THEIR prayer time. What happens when a Fred Phelps time ultraconservative wants HIS prayer time, and his group starts preaching their ultraorthodox bullshit on company grounds? You can't censor religious speech on break time (or again, they'll sue you for discrimination), so are you simply going to allow their anti-"anyone but us" tirades?

The only way for a company to protect themselves from lawsuits over religious discrimination is to ban them all equally. Religious practices have no place in the workplace.

And for what it's worth, I've been a manager and had Jewish employees in the exact situation you described. We cut them no breaks for the sabbath. If they could get someone to trade days with them, that was great, but the onus was on them to make sure they had the day off. On occassion, nobody could trade with them and they had to use vacation time to take off early. That's what equality is all about...everyone gets treated equally, and nobody gets special favors or time off simply because they go to this church or worship that god.

[Blue_Tires]

34. good post, and i agree

religion in the workplace gets to be a *VERY* sticky situation with its own world of legal ramifications unless everyone in the company is of the same religion. here's hoping they work out a happy compromise

[Yosie]

44. You must have had Ann Coulter's daddy as your lawyer

and not been in the First, Second, Third, Sixth, or Ninth Circuit.

If you would have had a collective bargaining agreement - you would have had a grievance. No mistake.

Just remember - the Norris LaGuardia National Labor Relations Act was a Democratic Bill - part of OUR New Deal package - just like Social Security.

[DemBones DemBones]

65. Considering the decline of union membership, and associated

decrease in their power, I think we know why there was no grievance.

[Yosie]

76. Sad but true.

[Orangepeel]

79. huh. were you open on Christmas? n/t

[Xithras]

86. Christmas is a federal holiday

Christmas is the only religous holiday recognized by the federal government (though Thanksgiving is arguable).

[Zhade]

87. It shouldn't be, even though I like the triple time.

NT!

[Xithras]

92. I'm sure the ACLU will go after it sooner or later.

There's a decent chance that the SC would toss it, but I'd bet that Congress would just pass a "Winter Holiday" federal holiday bill for December 25th within days.

[Zhade]

94. I would be fine with a religion-neutral "Winter Holiday".

It's the federal endorsement of Christianity I don't like, since it's unconstitutional.

[alarimer]

91. I think you are right

No one should get special treatment. Smokers, religious people or non-religious people, whatever. If they can work out something with their boss, like taking shorter lunch breaks (or none at all) and using that time for whatever they wish, that would probably be okay. I don't know the legal aspects. But they shouldn't expect special treatment. If they want to work longer hours to accomodate their prayer, then I gues that might be okay, depending on the employer.

[primavera]

105. Jesus, have you people drunk the Kool-Aid or what?!

Would you listen to yourselves, people?! You're all up in arms squabbling over whether someone might devote five minutes of their day to an activity that doesn't maximize the profits of parasitic employers who do no work at all other than to sit around sipping mai tais on their verandas and waiting for the checks to come rolling in!

You're all acting like somehow it's this great priviledge to do all of the work and collect a miniscule percentage of the proceeds of your labors. Wake up! It's you who are doing your employers the favor: without you, they might actually have to work for a living - perish the thought! For God's sake, it's not your mission in life to make other people obscenely rich at your expense; it's to live a decent, balanced life, which surely includes earning a living, but let's not forget it's about ensuring your own quality of life. Your not philanthropists for the wealthy - they don't need philanthropists, they're doing quite well already, thank you very much. Indeed, they are evidently doing so well that they have brainwashed their serfs into truly believing that they don't even deserve a few paltry minutes out of their ever-lengthening work days for ever-reducing pay to do someting other than make their employers even more money! Now that's life on easy street if ever I heard it!

I don't think I've ever seen such dramatic evidence of the effects of this country's prosecution of labor unions and their correspondingly diminished role in the labor market. In Europe, where unions are not persecuted for trying to represent the interest of workers, workers make more money, get better working conditions, longer vacations, and yes, more breaks, and for good reason because breaks are a natural thing for people to want and it is entirely appropriate that they should get them. Here, not only are we evidently willing to accept conditions under which the time we spend in the bathroom is electronically surveilled, tabulated, and held against us, we're actually willing to lash out at other workers who stand up for decent, humane working conditions as they would be unfairly receiving something the rest of us don't. Hello? Take a clue here, people, maybe you too should be walking out on your employers and demanding a little basic human dignity. Think about it!

[MountainLaurel]

108. Amen Brother Kevin

And praise Hera that I work in a place where nobody bats an eye to find my coworker in the staff room praying (we just quietly grab our food), nor when they see the spiral goddess on the chain I wear my staff ID.

[Dude_CalmDown]

114. I highly doubt their boss is sitting on his ass sipping Mai Tais

Their direct boss is most likely just a little higher paid than these guys with a ton more responsibility getting squeezed by their own boss to speed shit up and cut costs in half. Things just aren't that simple. The world does not stop for anyone's religious activities and if religion is that important to you then it's your responsibility to find a job that won't interfere with your religious practices.

[hezekkia]

116. your response

would have been the complete opposite if these had been fundy christians seeking a prayer break. of this I have no doubt.

[JDPriestly]

38. Work shoule not interfere with religious

observance, regardless of the religion. Whether Jewish, Christian or Muslim, a person should have the right to time off for prayer and worship.

[LiberallyInclined]

68. no, they shouldn't.

people need to make personal choices about which is more important to them- their job/chosen profession or their faith/chosen religion.

if you want sundays off for church- don't get a job where you might be required to work those hours.
It's not a company's responsibility to make allowances for all the myriad religions it's employees might practice-
it's the employee's responsibility not to take a job that conflicts or might conflict with the free practice of their religion, if their religion is that important to them.
period.

[mitchtv]

73. excuse me? why not open a churrch

and beg for contributions? When on the clock you work for the company. I would be very upset if I saw a certain group of employees working less time than others and getting the same pay. Fairness trumps religious observance on the job. No grievance in any contract I've ever enforced.

[Zhade]

88. I disagree. They knew the conditions when they took the job, right?

No special treatment for anyone. That's equality. These guys, sucky as their situation is, have no more right to extra breaks due to their personal chosen religion than anyone else.

I know that conflicts with their personal spiritual needs. I don't want to sound like a dick, but - that's their problem to work out.

[Scout]

117. it would depend on their work schedule....

what arrangements they made when they hired in.

Or whatever company policy is for "extra" time off or other schedule adjustments.

Depends on the work environment too.

[Scout]

120. not insensitive

I've been a supervisor.

[Warpy]

21. I've worked with smokers

who felt entitled to duck outside at least once an hour to smoke, leaving the rest of us to do their work (in healthcare).

Why the HELL they can't use the gum at work is completely beyond me.

And yes, we all resented the hell out of it, not being addicted, ourselves.

[leesa]

33. No kidding! Smokers take a lot of break time the rest of us don't get.

Of course, I'm a nurse so I don't really get any break time, but I've always been amazed that they were allowed to do that.

[madison2000]

58. The last place I worked there were three people who took smoking breaks

together every hour on the half hour. This was a small department so the rest of us had to organize our workdays around their frequent breaks- so we would be there to cover for them (it was a help desk). I didn't care if they worked an extra hour a day, I thought it was bullshit.

Now I work with two other people who go outside to smoke 5-6 times a day. I've taken up the habit of taking a break more often myself, and they seem to resent this. They NEED to smoke, so they think they should have more breaks than I do, and I should always be there to cover for their smoking time.

If you have a habit that interferes that much with your job, its not my problem!

[hezekkia]

118. DOWN WITH THE SMOKERS! n/t

[ninkasi]

56. Before I retired....

I was a smoker, and took my two 15 minute breaks just like everybody else. It was a Union company, and while I know some people don't like Unions, in addition to getting better pay, medical benefits, and some other things, a Union also insures that people are treated equally.

Anything else, like time off for vacations, etc, went by seniority. None of us resented getting the same 2 breaks as anybody else. Maybe Unions could solve some of the controversies that come up on the job. They are better for the American worker, in my own humble opinion.

[DemBones DemBones]

70. Yes, unions are good for workers. As a public school teacher/college prof

I never had a union to join but my professional life would have been better had I been a union member. (NEA does not really offer much protection or get much for teachers. At best, you get a lawyer if some kid claims you groped him/her.)

Both college and public school faculty are often mistreated, as much as workers in the banking and chemical industries, which I've also worked in. "Management" or "administration," it's the same deal: 90% are hard-nosed control freaks with no sense of fair play. May they spend eternity sitting through boring meetings run by some other control freak -- at the end of a hard day's work! ;->

[humanriteswritlarge]

104. NEA protects a lot of teachers

Before I retired, I was the lead NEA rep in a public high school. (We were entitled to 7 reps who attended a Representative Assembly once a month to discuss issues.) I cannot tell you how many times teachers who were considered to be the TOP teachers in terms of responsibility and competence came to me for help because they were being targeted by some little administrator who thought his job was to harass someone. We followed our contract and called in our NEA officials if we needed to drive home the point. It was very effective and we protected our contract. So if teachers think think they are not protected by NEA, they need to get involved in organizing and ramping up the terms of their contract.Ours was a large suburban school district and we worked well together.

[proud2BlibKansan]

112. NEA or any union is only as strong

as its members and their contract. I too have been a building rep for both NEA and AFT. I was also a national delgate for AFT. I quit shortly after the failed vote to merge the unions. That was the dumbest thing NEA members have ever done, IMO. I often wonder if we would even be fighting NCLB if that merger had been approved, creating the country's largest union.

But what you say about little administrators and harrassment is very true. I have worked for very few competent administrators. The man who was our local AFT prez for years used to say that the union's greatest recruiter was the district administration. :)

[Bill McBlueState]

123. NEA and AFT

Do NEA and AFT have some kind of historical difference that prevents their merging? Did they originally organize teachers in different types of schools or something? I don't really understand the difference.

on edit: typo.

[proud2BlibKansan]

128. Well NEA usually represents teachers

in suburban and rural districts while AFT represents urban area teachers.

There are many other differences - AFT is affiliated with AFL-CIO; NEA is not. In fact, that was why most NEA members voted against the merger, they didn't want to be part of AFL-CIO. 95%+ of AFT members were in favor of the merger.

AFT is also more prevalent on the east coast.

NEA is larger - 2 million members. AFT has 1 million members.

Many anti union types slam NEA and claim its lobbying efforts are anti-education. But, IMO, AFT is the more radical of the two organizations. I think NEA takes so much heat because it is twice as big as AFT.

[Zhade]

89. I *wish* we were union. We get 1/3rd industry pay here.

Anyone who dislikes unions must either be really ignorant of them or have had a terrible experience. We NEED unions again - they're a classic defense against growing fascism.

[0007]

22. Now I know why they made ya' boss!

[Yosie]

43. Not a correct statement of the law.

The employer is required to make "reasonable accomodations."

[Hobarticus]

2. Why not just offer every employee a 'flex break'?

That is effed-up.

[Skittles]

9. read the article

it says that one dusk prayer is NOT flexible

[LiberalFighter]

115. I may be wrong but...

there is flexibility in all of their prayers.

They are not required to pray at exact specific times. Meaning that as long as they pray within each of the 5 periods they are satisfying the requirements.

They are also permitted to pray twice in a period if they forget or unable to pray.

[NNguyenMD]

3. this is perfect, this is exactly the can of worms we were looking for to

get back at the evangelicals for shoving prayer in schools and the 10 Commandments in government buildings down our throats

[DebJ]

4. you see the problem is they were not praying to the Corporate

God or his Messiah, Bush.

[NNguyenMD]

11. well my point is, the muslims have every right to be practicing muslims at

work as christian students have every right to openly force feed their fanaticism in people's faces.

If the fundies don't support the muslims in this one, they reveal themselves as a bunch of self-serving hypocrits even more.

[DemBones DemBones]

57. Note that the evangelicals have not gotten their way -- organized

prayer in schools is illegal and so is posting the Ten Commandments in public buildings.

Madalyn Murray O'Hair started the ball down the slippery slope forty years ago and Muslims can hardly expect accomodation. If O'Hair were still alive, she'd be fighting against Muslims on many issues. She was a militant atheist who brought the case that made school prayer and Bible reading illegal, if you're not familiar with her name.

[Zhade]

90. And she deserves recognition for that.

She fought to keep church and state separate the way the Founders intended and thus upheld both our Constitutional principles and the social contract. Good for her!

EDIT: changed verb tense to "upheld"

[lastliberalintexas]

119. Untrue on so many levels

Organized prayer in schools is *not* illegal, so long as it is an extra-curricular student group to which membership is voluntary.

School prayer and bible reading are not illegal- and here I am assuming you mean reading the bible at school, and not that bible reading has been declared illegal per se. A student can pray or read her/his bible even at school, so long as s/he does it at appropriate times. I've posted this before, but let me repeat: Just as a student could not stand in physics class to recite the Gettysburg Address, neither could s/he recite the Lord's Prayer.

However, on her/his own time, during lunch periods, study halls, breaks between classes, etc., ANY STUDENT IN ANY SCHOOL IN AMERICA CAN PRAY TO ANY GOD/DESS S/HE WISHES- OR NOT. A student simply can not engage in religious activities in a manner or at a time which interferes with the actual task of the school- ie, to educate that child.

The only thing that is illegal is school led or school mandated prayer and religious activities.


There is a huge difference between religion actually being BANNED from the schools and what the law actually says- that the state, through its agents the teachers and other school employees, can not attempt to indoctrinate students or favor religion over irreligion.

After reading your posts over the years I know you're smart enough to know the difference Dem Bones. So I have to wonder why you would spout talking points that the right wing uses to try to force prayer on children in schools?

[Ilsa]

5. I know women who work for the state of Texas who say

other employees get time for cigarette breaks, but breastfeeding mothers can't get a "pump" break. But the state has lots of breastfeeding promotion that goes on; they know it is best for mother and baby.

[DemBones DemBones]

61. The breastfeeding moms should sue to get breaks to pump since

smokers get breaks to smoke. Lactating women have to either nurse their babies or pump their breast milk.

Nobody has to smoke, though I'm not opposed to employees smoking on their regular breaks. I was teaching public school when the schools banned smoking on school property by teachers and staff. It was difficult for the smokers but they managed to work their eight hours, and more when necessary, without a smoke break. It was especially hard on my friend Mary, who was used to running to the teacher's lounge for a couple of puffs during every class change, but she adapted.

[acmejack]

6. No smokes either

I was at dell for 6 years and you on break according to a strict schedule. Two breaks were given in a ten hour day (I did 4x10 shifts) plus a lunch hour (unpaid) also strictly scheduled & schedule adherence was rigidly enforced. Dell was fanatical about metrics, you had log a special code if you went to the restroom on a time other than your scheduled break. Over 15 minutes of personal time in a week was reason for "managerial counseling"

[lonestarnot]

13. Fuck Dell fuck corporate America! n/t

[Skittles]

14. you were lucky

I work 12 hour shifts in the IT industry with NO scheduled breaks. And believe me, when all hell breaks loose as it so OFTEN does, I do NOT get a break.

[lynne]

23. YIKES - I could not and would not work -

- in that type of controlled environment.

I once had a job where the pit-bull supervisor took it upon herself to count how many times I went to the bathroom one morning.

So, I just walked off the job at Noon AFTER telling the supervisor's boss about the impromptu candle selling parties she would hold whenever he left.

Made me feel better . . .

[JDPriestly]

40. I, too, have worked where breaks were timed.

Horrible, and unnecessary. If an employee is so lacking in interest in their breaks interfere with their performance, there is something wrong with the work -- or the employee should try to find something more interesting. But, sometimes, you need to make a call or take care of important business, and you should have flexible breaks so that you can live your life. People whose lives are in order are better workers -- more concentrated, more focused, so a more relaxed attitude pays off for everyone. This is especially true when it comes to prayer and worship. Those activities make for a better attitude at work. Of course, the prayer and worship should be silent and not involve proselytizing.

[bilgewaterbill]

71. Way to go, Lynne!

I hope you found better employment. That's the way to go out, though.

[Ian David]

28. Welcome to Dell Computers in The Worker's City: Why would you work there?

WELCOME TO DELL





Hey, Dell: "Between the mind and the hands, the heart must mediate."


Refining a Masterpiece
Fritz Lang's 'Metropolis' shines even brighter
By Richard von Busack

<snip>

Metropolis' repeated motto urges compromise: "Between the mind and the hands, the heart must mediate"--that only common decency can end the war between the haves and the have-nots. This ending was despised by the right and the left alike. Today, it seems insipid--and patronizing too: who decides whether someone's born a "head" or a "hand"?

And despite this film's pleas for order in a Germany that was already falling apart as the film was completed, something worse than a revolution happened. Instead of a rebellion, the German people marched into a Moloch of Hitler's own construction. More than an entertainment, Metropolis is a cautionary tale. For us, it's not too late.

More:
http://www.metroactive.com/papers/sonoma/08.29.02/metropolis-0235.html

[serryjw]

85. They must not have many middle age woman

we pee all the time. I can't imagine working for a company that had a special code for my potty breaks. More power to you for surviving 6 yrs

[Daphne08]

109. I dislike Dell and will never buy another computer from them.

[Trillo]

7. Is Cultural Sensitivity merely a propagandistic buzz-phrase? nt

[mutus_frutex]

8. This should be part of their contract.

I mean, if we are talking a private employer, then they have the right to set the rules ("discriminate"). If the prayer time is part of their contract and the company is breaching the contract, what the hell, go after them. Otherwise I think people don't have the right to push their religious beliefs on their employer.

The matter is totally different if we are talking about a tax funded employer.

[lonestarnot]

15. No it is unlawful for private employers to "discriminate" n/t

[mutus_frutex]

24. You should notice what I said:

It should be in their contract. It can be negotiated.

If a company has two prospective employees to choose from, one that would work the full time, another that would stop 5 times a day, shouldn't they be allowed to choose the one they think better fits their interests?

Let us say that I decide to abandon my atheism and set up my own religion. One in which 6 months of paid vacation a year are a god given right. Should I be discriminated or not?

Cheers..

[lonestarnot]

27. Yes and we should import everything we buy from China! n/t

[mutus_frutex]

29. I can see that your discourse is rather limited..

When you have something relevant to say, I'll be here to answer. Otherwise your non sequitur's are just a waste of time.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mutus_frutex]

36. Holy shit..

It sounds like you have a grudge.. I'm really sorry for you..

The fact that a company wouldn't be able to keep any staff if they really were a bunch of discriminating assholes is totally OK with me. That's the way it's supposed to be. These guys in the original article can't complain, but they can set the record straight for the future. If this thing goes through, Dell is going to have a hard time.

That said, I don't think companies should be able to discriminate purely on the basis of religious belief. But they should be able to if those beliefs interfere with the aims of the company.

[JDPriestly]

41. Actually, Muslims pray five times a day,

But, I don't think they pray five times during work hours. I think one time is early before work, and one time is late before bed. That leaves three times a day, which fits a normal workday if they pray at lunch and then at their morning and afternoon breaks. I don't know how flexibly they schedule their prayers. Does anyone know more about this?

[mutus_frutex]

42. Yes, I know that some of the prayer times would be off-work.

I was just trying to make a point. An exaggerated point, as my other example shows.. :-)

Cheers.

[DebJ]

84. there is definitely supposed to be a dinner time or sundown time

prayer. Two of my friends always needed to pray around 6pm

[Yosie]

48. You can think of ad horrendums up the Wazoo

I would suggest a good read of Lexis/Nexis.

Your scenario is an invitation to a big law suit (but that's how I make my money)

[mutus_frutex]

53. I'm not a legal expert.

I'm just saying how I think things should be.

Which scenario do you think would turn into a lawsuit?

Regards..

[Occulus]

102. Actually, it's already law.

Employers must make 'reasonable accommodations' for religious observance. They do not have a choice; they must allow the Muslims in this article to pray at sunset if those Muslims so desire.

What Dell could do is ask them to make up the time at the end of their shift. That's the 'reasonable' part.

This is the position the law takes. I know; we had this exact situation where I work and they were required by law to allow the Muslim employee an extra evening break for this prayer.

By the way, he was the only Muslim in the building that actually did this; there are several who work there, but they don't observe the evening prayer :shrug:

This guy did, he was the only one, and there was nothing at all management could do to stop him. He knew it, we knew it, they knew it.

Dell does not have a choice. Also, I find it shocking that so few people here realize that Dell has no choice. Ignorance of the law, indeed....

[mutus_frutex]

110. Then I, as an atheist, would like to have the same flexibility.

Is that possible or am I going to be "discriminated" because of my lack of beliefs"

By the way, WHO decides what are "reasonable accommodations" when it comes to religion? Wouldn't they be favoring some religions over others? If I belong to a religion that spouses 6 months of paid vacation as a core value, would that be accommodated. And if not, isn't that discrimination against the beliefs of my "church"?

Cheers..

[mitchtv]

74. discriminate is allowing certain employees "breaks"

that are not allowed to the group in general.

[Occulus]

106. No, it's a refusal to make reasonable accommodations that's discrimination

Go read the law on this and get back to us.

[mitchtv]

124. Reasonable=fair to all

Unreasonable more than 2.5 hrs between rest breaks.
Reasonable= 15 min in every four hrs of work
Unreasonable - special deals that effect other employees adversely

[lonestarnot]

16. another HR type n/t

[mutus_frutex]

25. Your reference escapes me..

Could you please elaborate your messages instead of simply disregarding mine?

[lonestarnot]

26. Human Relations type...you know...n/t

[mutus_frutex]

30. No wonder I didn't get it..

You know that it is HHRR, not HR, right??

And no, I'm not an "HR" type, I'm scientist. Pretty far in my humble opinion. So, your prejudices aren't exactly justified.

[Scout]

122. you know what HR types are...

those petty ones that have to enforce the rules, and take care of the complaints when one employee feels they've been discriminated against...

I wouldn't waste my time responding to this poster if I were you, you'll just end up frustrated.

:hi:

[Yosie]

49. Before you attack me -- I am a freakin lawyer

who loves to file vexatious and capricious harassment law suits against poor innocent little companies.:evilgrin:

[Yosie]

47. That's not the law.

[mutus_frutex]

54. Well, I should have made myself a bit more clear.

I'm not saying that that IS the law. I'm saying that that SHOULD be the law.

I'm trying to make a point and, of course, I might be wrong.

My opinion in this sense is a lot more nuanced that it might seem from these messages. Although I'm an atheist, I do concede that entities of a religious nature should not be mandated to accept people of other religions. (Unless, of course, they receive tax money, which they shouldn't be receiving anyway.. :-). That concession stems from the fact that if I decided to form an atheist entity, I wouldn't like to be forced to open it to believers.

It's a pretty complicated subject and my position in this respect goes a bit against my socialist tendencies. Let's say that balancing my anarchist and socialist tendencies is a bit difficult sometimes..

Cheers.

[benburch]

17. Good for them!

I have non-traditional religious holidays (Full moons, equinoxes, solstices) and to date every one of my employers has been accommodating. Including the very stodgy Interlake Steel company back in the 70s! (Thank you, Terry Brod wherever you are!)

[lonestarnot]

18. I say we've got half of Mexico over here and we should learn from them

Siesta time is a great idea! Take an hour or two knap or smoke or screw or eat shit read whatever! Whatever. This is my USA or whatever!

[Toucano]

20. You had one guy in a restaurant.

This is thirty people on an assembly line.

It's really not the same thing because they all want to take a break at the exact same time, which means the line has to shut down.

I admire your managment of the employee you had and would say you made the right decision in your case.

Thirty people leaving an assembly line at the same time, for any reason, is difficult to manage.

[DemBones DemBones]

59. Excellent point. This would mean stopping the line, a big no-no

in production work.

In production work, it is literally true that someone can die on the line but employees are expected to keep the line going. Work stoppages are very costly because of the expense of shutting down and restarting equipment. It's a bad system for humans to work in but if industry went to a 5 day week, without second, third, and swing shifts, and other unnatural practices, the economic effects would be huge. Production costs would skyrocket and we all know what would happen to prices of goods, don't we? And that wages would not increase to help workers afford the higher prices.

(There must be a way to fix it but I don't know what that way is. It would be interesting to hear ideas on the topic.)

[Toucano]

82. I can't see any good solution.

It does seem to me that members of other religions simply don't take jobs that interfere with their practices or laws.

I've never heard of an Amish man taking a job at Burger King and then refusing to wear the uniform because it violates his religion.

I can't see a solution for a Seventh Day Adventist taking a job at an amusement park that is only open on Saturday.

Would we expect there to be accomodations for Muslims who work in a pork processing facility?

I am inclinded to think that, generally, the burden lies with those who are particularly devout to find work that fits their unique requirements. If praying at sunset is critical to a person, perhaps that person should only consider employment that couldn't interfere with that need.

Of course, employeers need to be flexible, but there are obviously limits to that. If the Muslims can't be flexible also, this can only lead to hiring discrimination.

I bet the plant can relieve 5 or 10 people at the same time without impacting production. Would this then come to represent a hiring quota?

There must be other production facilities with large Muslim workforces. I wonder how they cope with this problem.

[Occulus]

107. A good solution is a REASONABLE solution

which follows the law. Dell could ask them to make the time up before or after their shifts, Dell could have a system where they leave earlier than required in their religion to pray, send them off by twos or threes, and take care of the 'problem' that way.

Dell doesn't need to let them all go off to pray at once, but Dell does have to handle it reasonably. Obviously, if I can come up with two possible solutions without really thinking too hard for them, Dell could come up with a really good solution if it wanted to.

Dell appeasrs to not want to follow the law, and they should get nailed for it. That said, legally speaking (and no, I'm not a lawyer, but I do have experience researching this specific situation for the exact same reason these Muslims do), I don't think the employees have their ducks in a row; they all want to do it at once. The law doesn't allow for that, nor does it allow for Dell to simply refuse to try to let them pray when their religion calls for it.

Someone needs to bring the two sides to the table on this; it's an easy situation to deal with.

[Toucano]

111. Your "solutions" are neither reasonable or good.

They're not even practical.

We're talking about 30 people who want to leave their station in a production environment at the same time. That time is different from week to week and month to month. It's always a time that comes in the middle of a 3-11 shift.

It isn't a problem that can be addressed by making up the time, before or after the shift. The time isn't the issue. It's the labor that's the issue. A person has to physically be at each station every minute or the line shuts down.

So just shut down the line. Let's assume it isn't an hours long process to shut down and re-start the production line. This is a packaging line, so that's a possibility.

Now you have all the non-praying-at-sunset workers forced to take their break at a time dictated by their co-workers. Is that fair to them?

The law isn't an issue. As other have pointed out, Tennessee is a right-to-work state and these workers are temps with no contract. Dell isn't legally responsible for making any accommodations for them. Their employer is the temp service.

If the temp service wants to send in 30 additional workers each day at sunset to replace the praying workers, that could work. Somehow, I don't see that happening.

This has come up before: http://www.kullmanlaw.com/pubs/client_nov04.cfm

"Tennessee Jury Concludes That Allowing Muslim Employees to Break for Sunset Prayers Is an Undue Hardship

Nine Muslim production employees filed separate lawsuits against their employer, Whirlpool Corporation, under Title VII and Section 1981 alleging religious discrimination because their employer refused to give them a break for sunset prayers. In the first case to go to trial, the company put on evidence that granting a simultaneous break request for 40 Muslim employees would be an undue hardship since that would shut down an entire production line. Given the competitive nature of the business, with all other Whirlpool competitors operating overseas at substantially lower cost, the jury agreed with the company that economically it would be an undue hardship to have so many employees off at one time. The employer also put on evidence of all other accommodations provided to its Muslim workforce, including separate prayer breaks at other times of the day, apparel allowances, adjustments to cafeteria options, and the posting of notices in other languages, to highlight that only the evening prayer was implicated in the dispute. Following the jury verdict, the remaining eight employees settled their cases confidentially."

[DURHAM D]

32. Are they following their religion or their traditions ?

If 30 crazy Christians decided to pray together at sunset (causing the line to be shut down) how would you feel?

[QC]

39. That, of course, would be an outrage.

It would be another case of those awful, tacky Christians forcing their beliefs on other people.

[Igel]

46. Religion, as far as I know.

I think the sunset prayers are the maghrib 'west' prayers.

Could be wrong.

[VirginiaDem]

60. Religion--the daily prayers are one of the five pillars of Islam

so it's not some kind of technicality or something from midway through Leviticus that we can agree to ignore. It's a big hairy deal.

[JerseygirlCT]

67. Christians aren't required to pray at sunset.

Muslims are required to pray at certain times of the day. There's some flexibility in there, but generally speaking, this is absolutely central to their faith practice.

As the OP said, I'll bet the company's smokers take more time away...

[Sandpiper]

37. No Win Situation

If the company says no prayer breaks, they're being "culturally insensitive."

If the company says evening prayer breaks for Muslims ok, then they're "giving special treatment to a religious group."

I'm not a big fan of Dell, but no matter what they do here, somebody won't be happy.

[Yosie]

50. The job of a good arbitrator or lawyer in this case

is to craft a mutually agreeable "win-win" situation.

[LiberalFighter]

66. IF they have breaks...

then they should have their prayers during their breaks.

If their breaks can be scheduled for the time they want for their prayer then that might be a way to accommodate them.

[Yosie]

75. Spoken like a sought after

"Win-Win" labor arbitrator. (Meant as a complement - my dad was a "Win-Win" arbitrator)

[LiberalFighter]

78. I'm a union member...

don't see any problem with reasonable solutions.

An employer has a business to run but at the same time an employer should not be running rough shod over their employees.

If I was an arbitrator I would research to see what accomodations the Muslim faith provides for those unable to pray at set times.

What did the Israelites do when they were slaves in Egypt? What did they do when they were living in another country and employed by someone not of their faith?

Same for Muslims at their beginning. They weren't the dominant religion so what provisions were made for praying?

[Sandpiper]

81. Arbitration and Dispute Resolution isn't my forte Counsellor

I'm more from the "take the gloves off and bash the other guy's face in" school of criminal defense. ;)


But I am still a pup, and have much to learn as to the ways of the force...er...legal profession.

[William Bloode]

62. Actually there is a win.

If i read correctly this is Tennessee, and Tenn is a right to work state.......end of story they can do as they please.

>>edit<<

I went back and read, yes it is Tennessee, and not only that they are temps. Sad as it may sound being a temp in a right to work state means you have almost no protection in these matters. They can simply be told they are not needed anymore. It's stacked pretty deep against them.

[pop goes the weasel]

45. Dell is a bastard

Everyone I've known who has worked for his company or him personally has hated the experience. He uses temp workers and sets impossible standards for them to become full-time permanent, though they can be kept on indefinitely. I hope these Muslims are successful, because the abuse of temp workers needs to stop.

[Coastie for Truth]

52. Like Hewlett-Packard and IBM

I am in Santa Clara County (Silicon Valley), CA- with the most diverse (like really diverse) population and work force in the country.

And, some how, both HP and IBM, and Apple all seem to "accommodate."

Now I know why I have always bought IBM and HP.

[hezekkia]

121. but not Apple?

heresy. ;-)

[Coastie for Truth]

125. They're not WIntel

(Not a direct competitor of Dell)

But I know they kept their cafeteria open late (after dark) during Ramadan --

I have seen traditionally clad Islamic women walking out of the Infinity Drive Building (my dentist is a block away).

This is Si Valley - the most diverse county...

[Zhade]

93. Okay, I don't get this.

Dell is a bastard. Hell yes it is, no question.

Temp workers shouldn't be abused. Total agreement.

What I don't get is how this instance is "abuse". If the workers knew work conditions might prevent them from taking breaks at certain times (I am uncertain if this is the case) and they took the job anyway, well, tough luck. They made their choice.

If they were told prayer would be accomodated and that wasn't true, that's abuse...but do they have a case in a state like TN?

All in all, though, it's not abuse to *not* give special treatment. YMMV.

[Rann]

51. DELL

Has no problems from all the India office I bet. The only problem they have is I can not understand the people over the phone....



Dell grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[bloodyjack]

99. DEY TOOK OUR JAWBS!!!

[Igel]

55. If they're observant, it's actually rather bad at times.

But if the job doesn't allow flexibility, that's not their problem.

They violate cultural norms and expectations; they should tell people up front that they will need special accommodations. In a job where accommodating one group would prove too hairy to manage, I'd give them two options: they schedule things to fit the job; or, since apparently it would make others in the line be idle, they get the time off but reimburse the company for the money lost by accommodating them. The claim that they're Muslim, and this is expected, also doesn't work: I've known many non-observant Muslims. "Muslim-ness" doesn't tell you enough.

For 20+ years I was a strict Saturday-sabbath keeper. I always told my employer-to-be that I'd need to leave work before sunset on Friday, making clear when sunset was in December and January, that I wouldn't work on Saturday, and that I needed certain days off during the year for religious observance. Otherwise, it to be a kind of fraud: "you may think you're hiring me on your terms, but you'll be employing me on mine." I didn't get a lot of jobs I interviewed for. But I got enough.

On the other hand, my religious tradition included suffering for Christ as consolation; I don't think mainstream Islam has that tradition.

And at least CAIR didn't mediate.

[DemBones DemBones]

63. Along those same lines of thought. . .

I'm all for people having the freedom to pray on their breaks at work and I sympathize with Muslims having conflicts like this. The problem is that they're not in an Islamic country, they're in one that is based on separation of religion and state, and in one that was industrialized long ago. The Industrial Age introduced things like 24/7 production in factories, ultimately followed by 24/7 shopping, requiring salesclerks as well as factory workers working all sorts of schedules that are less than humane.

Many Christians are required to work on Sunday and can't negotiate around it, though I don't know of any church that approves of Sunday work. Catholics in the US don't get to stop whetever they're doing and pray the Angelus at dawn, noon, and dusk. People in Catholic countries used to do just that. Church bells called people to pray the Angelus as well as to announce Masses. I don't know how many places that's still done today but certainly not in urban areas. Those are two accomodations that Christians have had to make to industrialized life, with many not being fortunate enough to have Sundays off or pray the Angelus as desired. It's kind of weird, in a country that places "In God We Trust" on its currency, but that's how it is.

Muslims can't be given rights that other religions don't have.

We tell Christians that their kids can't have organized prayer or Bible reading during the school day so the rules have to be the same for Muslims participating in organized prayer or scripture reading. Yet Atlanta public schools are letting Muslim kids out early for prayers or services on Friday.

And liberals who criticize Christian teenagers wearing those tee shirts with schlocky religious slogans on them should ask themselves why they have such a problem with that yet defend Muslim females who wear headscarves and sometimes cover their faces. It's my understanding that Muslim females are not required to do this but may choose to. Just like Christians are not required to wear religious tee shirts or jewelry, but may choose to.

[Zhade]

95. Yes and no.

Some Islamic sects do, indeed, require the hijab. Some do not.

Even though I get the impression you don't support Muslims getting special treatment because you as a Christian don't get special treatment, I do agree that the separation of church and state is essential to the social contract and should be reinforced whenever possible.

Having "In God We Trust" on our currency, btw, does not reinforce that constitutional principle. But that's a discussion for another day!

[Solon]

101. I don't get that position...

What "Special Rights" are the Muslims asking for again? As far as I'm aware of, companies cannot discriminate in any way based on religion, or religious practices unless reasonable accomodations cannot be met. I knew many Christians who were given every Sunday off, Jews and Seventh Day Adventists can get Saturdays off, ect. Are you saying that these "Special Treatments" should not be allowed in a business at all? All religious people get "special treatment" under the law of the land, in employment and everywhere else, its called EQUAL treatment, and if a Christian Sect required 5 prayers a day at certain times, companies would be required to accomodate that as well.

ON EDIT: One thing I want to make clear here, if you have a religious practice that requires time off work, you have to "ASK" for it, however, get this, your employer cannot say no, and if they don't like it they can't retailiate against you. Of course, that doesn't stop them from fireing you for "insuborniation" or some other excuse, but then again, if they do it too soon after you request such a thing, you can always sue them for religious discrimination. I was able to get the Sabbats off at work before, we simply worked it out with others, for example, I took off the 21st or 22nd of Dec. and covered for a Christian on the 25th. I don't see how this is a big deal for companies.

[VegasWolf]

69. I would never let religion stand in the way of money. n/t

[peacetalksforall]

72. Something is missing here...if they are temp workers, they should

have had the temp agency make pre-arrangements. There is a possibility that we are not getting the full story. Why accept work without pre-arrangements? Why show up at work and expect to get time? Something is missing. Right?

[Zhade]

96. "There is a possibility that we are not getting the full story."

No way! MSGOP not give us the full story? That's un-possible!

:evilgrin:

[Politicub]

77. Fundamentalists of any stripe

are all kind of nutty if you ask me.

[Behind the Aegis]

80. Negotiate BEFORE you go to work

I would have no issue if this group had negotiated their 'break' needs prior to taking the jobs. However, you do not accept a job, then demand "rights." I don't think any group should come in and start making demands. Make them BEFORE you take the job.

I have no issue with jobs making allocations for any group's religious beliefs, but a line has to be drawn. I have worked for universities in a position that required year-round coverage. There was always a chance one would have to work Christmas or Easter. People knew that coming into the job, usually those dates get peddled off on the Jews working there, but that is another thread.

If the company is big enough, usually requests like this can be met. However, in smaller companies, or assembly lines, then it is a bigger problem. But, they, and a few people here, need to understand that they have a request and not demand the changes.

[Zhade]

97. I fully agree, but since someone's gonna bring this up, there's a dilemma.

What if someone converts after taking the job?

(I still agree 100% with your post. Just playing Devil's Advocate here. Not that the "devil" exists or anything.)

[dhinojosa]

83. Did anyone bother to mention: "Dude, you can't pray at Dell"

I am disappointed :)

[SemperEadem]

98. this should be quite interesting

to see exactly what 'freedom of religion' really means in this country.

[Coastie for Truth]

100. ALL LIBERALS AND PROGRESSIVES -- DIVEST AND BOYCOTT

All good Liberals and Progressives both in the US and outside (as in Australia) -

1. Boycott Dell.

IBM, Gateway, HP, and Toshiba are better computers. Besides, this managerial misbehavior would get a manager fired at IBM.

Besides, Dell is pulling a Wal-Mart in much of its manufacturing. Off shoring,.

2. Urge charities, colleges, universities, churches, mosques, temples, etc. to DIVEST their Dell stock.

[Oreegone]

103. No manufacturing jobs for the middle east

That prayer break would interrupt those 14 hour days in a bad way. We better stick to a less active religous atmosphere. (sarcasm)

[AuntiBush]

113. DELL! Sold all buyers OUT to 180 Solution SPYWARE Last Year!

I kid you not! Google search it at http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=180+Solutions&btnG=Google+Search.

Just go here:

http://forums.us.dell.com/supportforums/board/message?board.id=sw_win98&message.id=47717
http://www.a4uforum.co.uk/archive/topic/21277-1.html
http://www.a4uforum.co.uk/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21277
http://www.benedelman.org/spyware/180-affiliates/
http://www.smartcomputing.com/messages/answer.asp?guid=&messageid=448710&qtype=&sid=&WordList=&searchtype=&df=&dt=&sort=&cmd=&pg=46&uname=

[Charles19]

126. As a muslim who prays on the job

When the employer is sympathetic to allowing Muslims to do their daily prayers they are very thankful to the employer. Taking a short break to do the obligatory prayers if anything helps you be more productive and less stressed.

[Spinoza]

127. No employer should ever

have the LEGAL obligation to have to provide special "prayer time" to ANY employees regardless of religion. On the other hand, employees should be able to utilize any "free" time in any manner they want--including prayer--provided only they do not disturb other employees.