About Outsourcing US jobs, would you feel the same way about

[CanIgonow]

it if the jobs were outsourced to Britain or Germany rather than India?Although I am in support of putting restraints on outsourcing,I have seen many posts where there is a suspicious amount of racist bias creeping in.This was very apparent in a recent thread on medical jobs being outsourced where a poster became apoplectic over us all becoming servants to the f---ing Indians.As a DUer and a liberal, I cannot support anything that contains racist bias.

[mhr]

1. Unemployed 4 Years, Outsourcing To Any Country Is Bad Policy

'nuff said

[CanIgonow]

8. I agree.

[Deja Q]

23. Post 22 elaborates a bit on 'bad policy'.

(national security and infrastructure concerns that * of all dingbats should be concerned about, but isn't - proof he should not have any power of any sort.)

[Dogmudgeon]

2. It's not the Indians

They are not to blame for jobs being sent to India -- not by any stretch of the imagination. I can't blame anyone who wants to work at a high-paying job, even if it's a job taken from me by proxy. (Yes, I did lose a job to a worker in India.)

The culprits are the geniuses who think they'll make more money by sending jobs overseas by the thousands. They forget that by depressing the income of any segment of the work force, they're jeopardizing their markets, their nation, and their prosperity.

In addition, what's going to happen if/when Pakistan starts rattling the nuclear saber at India? Pervez Musharraf is hanging on by a thread as it is.

Offshoring as it's now practiced is a dangerous game. It has nothing to do with international commerce -- it's a means to concentrate profits, not generate wealth. And I fear for us all when the consequences have to be faced.

Indian DUers, I rejoice in your success. But keep firmly in mind that Americans are being traumatized by a small bunch of business numbskulls, and that the major backlash will not be in the form of racism. It will be in the form of a crippled IT and technical market. And if relations between India and Pakistan get bad, you'll be treated with even less respect than we were.

--bkl

[CanIgonow]

9. Our common enemy are the big multinational corporations who

keep manipulating people, money and capital equipment to get the biggest bang for their bucks.I think the only thing that is going to wake up these numbskulls is when the middle class in this country is completely bankrupt and their markets evaporate.Sort of like killing the golden goose you might say.Even the Indian people should be aware of this and take steps not to kill the American middle class which is the driver of the world's economy.

[Sinistrous]

3. Had the positions been going to Germany,

you would be decrying the phrase f---ing Krauts, and if the positions had benn going to England you would be decrying the phrase f--ing Limeys.

I find your protest a tad sactimonious.

[CanIgonow]

10. Not really.All of these xenophobic statements are unacceptable.

[acmavm]

4. I really don't care where it is the jobs are sent, we need to work here in

this country.

Nobody's expecting anybody to support 'racist bias'. But when the IRS is subcontracting government jobs to India and people here are unemployed, then they're going to be upset that the jobs are going to India.

I must be missing something because I don't see why we should be jumping up and down with glee because we're providing people in other nations with jobs when we need them so badly here. In fact, I would like a full-time permanent job with 'maybe' a benefit or two. I've been working temp for over a year, almost a year and a half. One of the biggest employment scams out there right now. Why should I feel warm all over that we're exporting jobs overseas, and I don't care to where, when I can't get one myself?

[CanIgonow]

12. I am in complete agreement with you.We do need to stop our own

government agencies both at the State and Federal levels from outsourcing any jobs even if they can show savings from it because, after all, they are funded from the taxes you and I pay.

[Eurobabe]

5. outsourcing to ANY country is wrong, so is racism

[FloridaPat]

6. Unemployed for most of 2 years. I even resent bring foreigners

into this country to do the work cheaper. Don't care what the nationality is. You would think that the citizens of a country should come first before the rest of the world.

[luaneryder]

7. I'm not aware of the thread you refer to

but it doesn't matter where the jobs are sent; they're not here now for the people who need them. Outsourcing is only good for the corporations profit margins, they couldn't give a shit who they hurt or who they help. I did hear somewhere that Linux was bringing back jobs that had been outsourced.

[union_maid]

11. Would it be racist if they said the f---ing Germans?

I didn't see the thread but I don't see a racist statement in what you wrote. I see anger. It's corporations that are pitting Americans against people in other countries. Most of us don't blame the people in those countries but some will. People's livings are disappearing to specific destinations.

[CanIgonow]

13. The correct term for it xenophobia and that too is not an acceptable

thing.

[sweetheart]

14. I feel the accounting tax laws should be changed

for corporations. The law should require them to show outsourcing
as an "import" of goods, with a tarriff tax per head for avoided
FICA and tax contributions.

Some firms actually run domestic operations the world over like IBM
and HP. These ones do not outsource per se, as much as use more
resources from their cheaper supply countries. This form of
"outsourcing" is harder to regulate, but methinks in fixing the
tax laws for the former, the latter will be neglible.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

15. Oh, please. Give me a break. IMHO, you're looking waaaay....

...too hard for something that doesn't exist on DU.

Maybe you'll have better luck posting this on Free Republic...I'm sure you'll get quite a few of the responses you're obviously seeking.

IMHO, outsourcing is bad for America no matter WHERE the jobs go.

[Skittles]

16. yes I would feel the same way

it's not the people in India or Brazil (who I work with via phone conferencing every night) with whom I am upset; it's American corporations that exploit them and are trashing America.

[dryan]

17. Would feel that offshoring....

is wrong for the American economy no matter where the jobs go. Among other reasons, what will happen to the workers in India when the multinational companies that hired them start feeling that they are getting paid to much...what other country can their jobs be shoved off on?

[CanIgonow]

27. The problem with outsourcing to countries like India or China is

that with nearly 1.3 billion people in India and about the same in China, when one section of the population moves up in the economic ladder, there is another rung in the ladder that is there waiting to take its place.As both India and China have an enormous number of graduates coming out of their universities, there is very little likelihood of wages going higher.If anything, the markets for American corporations in India and China are exploding and soon they may dwarf the size of the markets in the US.I am simply not optimistic
short of a congressionally mandated restriction on outsourcing.

That brings me to another question: Is there any resistance to outsourcing in Germany and Britain and Japan? I am sure these countries are just as affected by this problem as we are.

[IdaBriggs]

18. Different Perspective

Buy American and pay ten times the price. Sorry, but that is occasionally the harsh reality. That might not sound so bad, but let's take a look at automobiles: If the parts are 100% American, the average American couldn't afford to buy them. Here's another nasty secret -- even when you THINK you are buying American, half the time you really aren't. The stories I could tell (but won't) are extremely depressing when it comes to pricing. Trying to walk the fine line between actually competing in the market place (because your competitors are also looking for cost savings), making your investors happy, AND keeping your employees solvent isn't easy. And the occasional corrupt Union isn't helping -- anyone NOT know stories of people who don't do their jobs still keeping them to everyone else's detriment?

People want a good deal. I've NEVER met anyone in my life who says, "You know, this (fill in the blank) is so wonderful, I want to pay you five times what you are charging me because I love it so." Same goes for employment status, by the way. People pay you what you think you are worth.

Bottom line: I'm not thinking about someone's job when I'm shopping for a toaster; I want the best quality at the cheapest price so I can use the rest of my money for other things. Welcome to the market place. :)

[69KV]

42. This is ridiculous

Why were Nikes affordable when they were made in the USA, but too expensive to believe now that they're made by people getting paid slave wages?

Why is clothing union-made in the USA (here: www.unionjeancompany.com) cheaper than the brand name Levis and so on made with cheap labor?

It's what people are willing to pay on the retail market that sets the price, not the cost of labor. Companies try to cut the cost of labor to pocket the difference for themselves, not to pass off the savings to the consumer.

Try and show me ANYTHING made in the USA that costs 10 times or even 5 times the competition. You cannot because no such products exist! In fact I submit that if everybody in the world were paid a livable wage starting today, the prices of consumer goods would go up zero, zilch, nada. The only difference would be that the workers would be getting more of the fruits of their labor, and the bosses, relatively less so, and the gap between the poor and the rich would narrow somewhat.

P.S. "The occasional corrupt union"? "Welcome to the market place"? You haven't been reading any Ayn Rand lately have you?

[Strelnikov_]

44. Fully Agree, Sir

Off shoring results in a short term savings (competitive advantage) to the corporation of 10-30% (typical #'s I have seen). Once a majority of the competitors have off shored, the competitive advantage is gone.

The only thing the off shoring craze will lead to is a deep recession or depression in this country, and possibly worldwide, as the consumers no longer have the money to consume, and the producers cannot buy the products they produce.

[Rick in Maryland]

19. The difference for me would be at least the jobs would be going to people

still paid a real living wage. Jobs in the UK or Germany would not be paying a few dollars a day. If anything, the jobs would actually pay more. More paid holidays at the very least.

The real evil of jobs going to India is that the jobs pay such a small amount of money.

[leesa]

20. The point is that we have no jobs here, in case you missed it.

[welshTerrier2]

21. Outsourcing is an equal opportunity UN-Employer

outsourcing is class warfare waged by the wealthy against working class people regardless of what countries are involved ...

workers are made to compete globally ... when standards of living are high in one country relative to another, for example in the U.S., workers are unfairly made to compete for jobs and generally will lose their jobs to workers from countries with lower standards of living ...

it is treason for domestic corporations to export jobs ... we should punish the highest ranking corporate officers as criminals when they steal the livelihood from people for their own greedy objectives ...

[Deja Q]

22. Okay, let's end this nonsense once and for all.

I'm just glad the corporations are preferring to put these jobs, and servers, in politically volatile areas. Should Pakistan get annoyed by any future tantrum that India throws and launches a nuke, say "toodles" to our own economy in the process.

How is our economy safe when everything that supports it isn't even kept IN America?! :eyes:

That's my two cents, the concept of outsourcing alone is appalling.

If time travel was invented, I'd hope the corporations would move everything to 18th century France and let the contemporary redcoats demolish everything, I see no difference. Do you?

It is not because of skin color. It's about the karma the corporate filth deserve because of their open contempt toward the country that gives them these particular freedoms (to steal, lie, cheat, rob, exploit). These companies are no less than traitors to America by not supporting its infrastructure. (thanks to Reagan and a couple of Bushes, maybe they see that they don't want to fix the $7 trillion debt they ALL contributed to, politicians and corporate interests alike!)

They talk of national security, but it's a load of steaming cattle cack. The dichotomy doesn't cut any ice with me.

Now if you want me to insult the Indian People, I don't need to nor would I want to. Oprah Winfrey did a show about a year ago which really burned my bippy. It was about the human rights atrocities that Indian men do to their wives/intended wives (oh, it was gruesome). Utterly disgusting. I will not be tolerant of human abuse, and I don't give a rat if it's out of their customs, religions, or whimsical desires. It's wrong REGARDLESS. If anybody was racist, it was Oprah for suggesting that ALL Indian men are like that. (Not all of them are, DUH...)

This is not racism, this is not bias, this is REALITY.

[Strelnikov_]

24. I Have No Problem With Offshoring

If the country the jobs are being offshored to have comparable, and enforced, environmental/workplace safety/labor laws, and distribution of wealth, as the United States. If these conditions are met, then Ricardo’s principles of comparative advantage are applicable.

If not, I view the offending company as being in violation of U.S. laws, since they are moving work to skirt the laws of the U.S..

I propose withdrawal from NAFTA, GATT, etc., and establishment of tariffs based on the exporter countries comparable environmental/workplace safety/labor laws, and relative labor costs. Export goods could be grouped into broad classifications for application of the tariffs. For example, cars, lawnmowers, chain saws etc. would be in one group since manufacturing processes, and therefore the laws impact on costs, would be similar.

The labor costs in the countries could be addressed by indexing average wage for products within a tariff classification group to the nation’s GDP. My view is that the ratio of wages paid to GDP would be a reasonable indicator of how fairly an economy is distributing wealth compared to the U.S.

Additional tariffs could always be imposed for traditional trade issues such as dumping, government subsidy, etc.

For nations that we want to reward, or promote development in, the adjustment percentage could be reduced. To make the above system work for labor in the U.S., the current labor black market must be stopped which will require immigration law being reformed and a guest worker program implemented.

[idlisambar]

45. Don't place too much faith in Comparative Advantage...

If the country the jobs are being offshored to have comparable, and enforced, environmental/workplace safety/labor laws, and distribution of wealth, as the United States. If these conditions are met, then Ricardo’s principles of comparative advantage are applicable.

Trade theories like Ricardo's Comparative Advantage and its extensions basically assume away as "transition costs" the lost capital and labor skills investment when an industry shuts down. If these so-called transition costs are great enough, whatever advantages that might occur because of specialization will not make up for them.

This is hardly the only problem with Comparative Advantage -- the models are much too simple to have applicability in a real economy, and so it is a serious mistake to rely on them for guidance. After all, if Japan had followed the advice of Ricardo 150 years ago, they would be a quaint little island with exports like whale meat, silk, and samurai swords instead of steel, automobiles, and electronics.

Take a look here for some history and theory...

http://www.debunking-economics.com/Talks/free_trade.PPT

and here for more history...

http://www.fpif.org/papers/03trade/

[Strelnikov_]

48. I Agree, It Is A Simplistic Model

What is your solution? Nothing, like we are doing now? Or close off the borders?

Most people in the U.S. have a gut feeling that globalization, as it is currently being practiced, is not working to our benefit. As someone who obviously understands economics, is there a solution?

This entire issue seems to breed polarized opinions, but no real answers as to how to make it work for the average American.

[MichiganVote]

25. Almost 50,000 posters registered on this board and you're

worried about a few biased or even racial posts at a time when US citizens are deservedly anxious about their livlihoods? Come on, labor costs more in Europe than in so called 3rd world countries so of course the countries of India, Mexico or Asian states come up more. One does not have to be a liberal or a conservative to have some understanding of how desparate people feel in the US.

Does George care? Hell no George doesn't care, we're all just going to go to a community college and get a degree in housekeeping or washing salad greens for crying out loud.

[Darranar]

26. I'm for it to India, but not to Europe...

In order for third world nations to build up their economies, they need to have a trade surplus. One way to achieve this is through movement of jobs.

What I'm not in favor of is the sort of reckless, harmful outsourcing currently practiced by the elite. There should be effective restrictions and world-wide labor laws, to prevent rampant unemployment here and wage-lowering competition everywhere. And the government should raise taxes on the top 1% and use the money for more government jobs for the unemployed and foreign aid so that the inherent problems with market-based development can be reduced. The problem is not outsourcing; the problem is outsourcing without restriction, regulation, or counter.

And while we're at it, reform (or eliminate) the WTO, the World Bank, and the IMF. And withdraw from NAFTA.

The global system needs to be regulated, but if it is totally eliminated the opportunities for development will be greatly reduced.

[Blue Wally]

28. If we raise tarriffs

As much as has been proposed, we will have a short term influx of tax money to the federal government. In the long run, we will see an economic slowdown as those tarriffs (taxes) will be reflected in the price of the items involved. The "standard of living" here will go down in the sense that people will be able to afford less in terms of material goods (cars, electronics, toys) and eventualy, the government tax receipts form tarrifs will decline. There is a signficant body of economic thought that the Great Depression was brought on by high US protective tarrifs.

[Darranar]

29. I don't think I was advocating tarriffs. n/t

[Strelnikov_]

33. There Is Also A 'Significant Body' Of Economic Thought

that the great depression was brought on by workers not being able to purchase the goods produced, resulting in overcapacity, followed by stagnation and deflationary spiral.

The only thing propping up China/India is the massive current accounts deficit with the U.S., as most of the products produced are being exported.

How in the hell are we going to continue purchasing products from these countries, let alone maintain our standard of living, when we no longer have any 'value-added' (manufacturing/production) jobs? The GOP future is for workers in the U.S. to be house serfs, and the workers in China/India/etc. to be field serfs. And this system will work about as well as it did in the early 20th century.

[FlaGranny]

30. I'm not sure what upsets me more

outsourcing jobs to foreign countries, or dealing on the phone with customer service reps who don't understand what I'm saying and I don't understand what they're saying. Friday I was dealing with a rep from India whose pronunciation of English words was so bad that it took three times longer to deal with her (but probably still a bargain in wages for the outsourcing company). My reaction, though, is never to deal with that company again.

I have a suspicion that Humana (the medical insurance folks) also outsource customer service to India.

I hate it and the older I get, the less patience I have with it.

Edit: This outsourcing of customer relations has about the same effect as NEVER being able to get through the automated call menus to speak to a real person.

[Liberal Veteran]

31. Offshoring to India is about paying pennies on the dollar to workers.

Period.

It is not about racism, it's about corporations LIKE MICROSOFT, who made their fortunes on the backs of American workers and then the first chance they got, they turned their backs on those same workers who helped make the company successful and profitable in order to increase an already bloated profit margin.

Now obviously if they had outsourced to Germany or England, there are wage controls in effect that would not have made moving outsourcing to Europe a profitable move.

I resent and reject your shrill crills of racism. It's not about racism, it's about exploiting another country's worker base to increase a bottom line profit margin while stabbing their own employees in the back while reaping the rewards of being an American company, benefitting from the US tax payer infrastructure.

[sadiesworld]

32. If we continue to lose jobs and we will (apparently there will be a flood

of outsourcing following the election) there WILL be an increase in misdirected racism. I also anticipate there will be an increase in media spin designed to exaggerate that racism. And it may work. The right will blame outsourcing on foreigners. The left will be so horrified at being LABELED as racists that they may quietly watch their jobs slip away.

Those middle-of-the-road, non-idealogical, swing voters may save us yet.

[Strelnikov_]

34. "They Turn The Young Against The Old, Black Against White, . . "

from the movie "Blue Collar".

The Iron Heel media will be screaming the 'racist' nature of immigration and trade reform, as the ruling elite laughs all the way to the bank.

[OnionPatch]

35. The key is the wages

Jobs outsourced to Europe would be done because they had a particular skill that was hard to find in the US. The ONLY reason jobs are outsourced to India and other so-called third world countries is because of cheap labor. I could not care less who the cheap labor is. And it's not just wrong for us here losing our jobs, it's wrong that those "dark-skinned" people are being taken advantage of and used like slave labor. I never felt any sort of racist anger toward those who take the jobs. They are desperate. It's a shame.

[Radius]

36. Mechanics

There is no way to regulate this. You can't make a law and say companies have to employ 80% of their workers in the US. Ford for example has hge operations in Mexico.

Honda builds its cars in Ohio. BMW builds cars in Spatrtanburg, SC.

Only Defense contractors are subject to this type of regulation, for obvious reasons.

This started with textiles, and moved to programming and consumer support.

My point is how can you stop this without causing major inflation?

[JHB]

37. They DO outsource to Europe, you know.

To Ireland, although now even that's eroding to Indian and Chinese locations.

[Hoping4Change]

38. How do you then excuse the inherent "racism" in the Hindu caste

system. The Untouchables in India, those consigned to cleanly toilets are the darkest skinned Indians; the Brahims, the highest caste, have the lightest skin. The reason that multi-nationals wants to outsource is to circumvent US labor laws. No matter how injust the US is, it is light years ahead of countries such as India in protecting workers rights.


BTW Watch the repeat of Moyers (NOW) interview with Lou Dobbs.
Dobbs has just written a book about corporate greed and outsourcing. Brilliant.

[AngryOldDem]

39. Yes, Definitely!

This is really a sore spot with me, so I'll try to be coherent.

Outsourced jobs, for the most part, are jobs that are taken from gainfully employed U.S. citizens, for no other reason than to enhance the bottom lines of U.S. companies. Also, the workers who get those jobs (be they in India, Pago-Pago, or wherever) are as much victims as the outsourced workers, because they are receiving FAR less in compensation for that job than what is fair market value. Customers are also getting cheated because the quality of service in most cases is far below standard. Outsourcing is just the slave trade under a different name. Both employees and customers are getting screwed in any outsourcing scenario.

A few years back I read an article where a company exec was asked why he used foreign workers over unemployed U.S. workers. His answer: I can't find any U.S. workers. Bull. Shit.

Outsourcing, especially in the tech area, also raises many security issues. If we are so damned concerned about homeland security, perhaps we should be looking at what information technology is being sent offshore: Financial information? Computer coding schematics? Can we really trust who is doing these intelligence-sensitive jobs?

My husband works in a field (computers) where outsourcing is a constant worry. His take: He does not begrudge foreign workers their jobs. But he DOES begrudge them HIS job. Outsourcing can be a good economic idea, if approached from the standpoint of training foreign workers in the field so that they can, in turn, enrich their local economies. As it stands now, someone has to lose for someone else to gain. And make no mistake: Once your job is gone, it's damned hard to find something that is comparable to what you lost.

I regret that it is becoming a racial issue with some, because as I stated, everyone but Big Business is the loser here. But people are angry, and that anger has to be projected somewhere. No excuse, of course, but there it is.

[Frangible]

40. Yes, I would feel the same way

I think selling American workers out to pad the bank accounts of rich suits is wrong no matter where the jobs go.

What's even more pathetic is when our own government does it.

[progressivebydesign]

41. I don't care where they go.. if they go.. it's bad. N/T

[69KV]

43. Workers are paid livable wages in Britain and Germany

That's the real issue. So no I would not object if jobs are outsourced someplace where workers are paid decent wages - but that's also why jobs aren't being outsourced to Britain and Germany. Workers in India are not paid livable wages and corporations outsource there for precisely that reason. Once workers in India are also paid a livable wage comparable to that in the U.S., U.K. or Germany, then outsourcing will end.

[Tight_rope]

46. IMO: It's not about who my job goes to, it's about where it goes to!

[Bluzmann57]

47. The USA needs to re-establish our manufacturing base

as well as our technology base. End of argument. Good, livable wage jobs are needed here as well as the rest of the world. I am a staunch Labor Union man and want my country to become the leader it once was as far as tech and manufacturing. I also want people in developing countries to have a chance to earn a livable wage with benefits as it is good for all of us to have these things. If the rest of the world has livable wages and Union representation, then America will keep more of our jobs. And American workers are still the best in the world, regardless of what anyone may try to say.