I need to be convinced of this Gannon/Gosch thing

[WilliamPitt]

I apologize for starting another thread, but the two that are going have a combined 300 posts, and I fear my questions would get lost in the twelve shouting matches that have broken out.

I'll start right out and say I am not at all or in any way sold on this story. I think it's out there farther than the Oort Cloud. I'm not going to sit here and scold anyone by saying that flogging this story is 'bad for the cause' or anything, but right now I see this story as one of the side efects of the internet: The ability, by way of the massive amounts of disparate data involved, to make connections that do not actually exist.

Same stuff happens in the 9/11 Truth Movement. A few people see a photo of one of the planes with a shadow underneath its belly, and then see a flash of light at the nose of the plane as it makes contact with the building, and suddenly we have the theory (no, truth!) that the plane fired a missile into the building just before it hit.

Um...no. But guys like Wayne Madsen - whom I greatly respect as a researcher and theorist - make their living off doing this: Taking disparate strings that don't have anything to do with each other and wrapping them into a large yet incorrect rope.

Put it this way: I love Andy Stephenson like a brother, but I would not report on this story on truthout if you put a gun to my head.

So convince me, if you feel like it. I've read the threads and seen the comparison pictures, and they don't acount for the huge, whistling gaps in the story.

[Al-CIAda]

1. I too am skeptical and have stayed clear of it.

I believe current shenanagans with this 'operative' are more than enough to find the truth about and expose -IMO

[Warpy]

2. I won't believe a word of it until

a sympathetic waiter at one of Gannon/Guckert's watering holes supplies a glass with his DNA on it for comparison with Johnny Gosch's mother.

If she can't be ruled out as a blood relative, I'll start to listen.

[Cats Against Frist]

29. Wouldn't Gosch's mother be able to ID Guckert as Gosch?

I mean, she claims that the kid visited her in the middle of the night, a few years ago, right --? You'd think she'd be smart enough to be able to ID her own son, especially if she saw him, recently.

[slaveplanet]

she's on the record

as saying that she will not confirm or deny based off grainy photos.
He has said there are stiking similarities, she won't make a call without DNA proof.

Gannon has said he feels sorry for this woman ...and not much more on the subject

[dutchdemocrat]

3. And those whistling gaps are wide open

I watched the segment via net and, well, frankly, it was a bit embarassing.

Say what you will about 'media' setup and whatever, but the main man ripped into the story in an ugly way - for sure - who could not feel and see that?

Bottom line is.... it sucked. Period. Sorry for all involved, but it did more damage than good. DU got STOMPED on. Period.

[EFerrari]

45. DU wasn't mentioned? When did that stomping occur? n/t

[mattclearing]

4. It seems like a reach.

And probably a distraction.

The fact that Gannon refuses to deny it is interesting, but it's in keeping with my thinking on him.

My feeling is that Gannon is acting as a provocateur to get our goat.

I remember thinking it when he launched his blog awhile back and made a deliberate Hunter Thompson reference. He knows his audience, and it ain't conservatives.

It's clear to me that he is out there doing what he is doing more for us than for them, a fact that Talon News' stats bely.

So he wants us concentrating on his antics, and whoever signed off on his daily press credentials likely does too.

[thecorster]

10. good call.

America already wrote the whole GannonGate off, just like they did with fake WMDs and the freedom of Osama and all of Bush's shortcomings. The (small) voting majority of our country just doesn't care.

If GannonGate hasn't done damage to Bush already, let's drop it and focus on the next scandal.

[Al-CIAda]

14. NO -Gannongate should be used as a battring ram to expose the propaganda

and paid shiling of the corporate state.

[mattclearing]

15. To that extent, the MSNBC story was effective.

They actually did bring up the allegations that the CIA kidnapped, brainwashed, and subordinated Gosch.

Any media scrutiny of alleged OGA misdeeds is a positive imho because it forces people to take a look.

That is what the media is supposed to be there for.

[KoKo]

18. There's a big lack of reporting on Guckert's past.

Seems no one knows much about what he's been doing all those years before Talon News. Mixed reports about Military Experience, etc. Kos folks were supposedly doing some "back room" investigating on this, but not much more seems to have turned up.

In another time...like during the Clinton years there would have been whistle blowers and folks turning up with tidbits about Gurkerts "sketchy past." Maybe even one or two of his "clients" would have leaked info to a tabloid and continued the scandal. As it stands there's much that's very odd about Jimmy/Jeff and why McClelland called on him in the first place allowing him to go on and on in that question and then the whistle get's blown about it.

Now he flaunts his website after telling Elad here that he wanted to be number one on the list of DU's "Top Ten Conservative Idiots."

I also think Jimmy/Jeff combs DU for articles about himself, knowing he's "protected," from anyone finding out the gaps in his past by someone in this administration. Maybe he's even a poster. His ego would seem to show that he's very interested in keeping himself out there. Or, someone else wants to make sure he's still out there. :shrug:

[mattclearing]

22. Precisely my thinking regarding his need for attention.

He's deliberately baiting us.

It's like he's a human Dan Rather National Guard Memo.

The fear is that when we eventually get to the bottom of who or what he is, it will make us look like total idiots.

[BamaBecky]

25. Eggzactly! PreSlicely! n/t

[Goldmund]

5. I think that Noreen Gosch's refusal to discount the possibility...

...brings it in from Oort to somewhere around Kuiper belt. Still, 40 AU is pretty fucking far out.

[mattclearing]

7. Her mere presence is the only thing that holds the story together.

And Gannon's refusal to rule it out. Without those two factors, the MSNBC report would never have happened.

They are both enabling each other into the public eye, which gets both of their messages out, hers about her missing son, and his about Gannon-mania.

[kenny blankenship]

31. No it doesn't

Noreen Gosch also said the theory is "quite bizarre" at the same time that she said it wasn't impossible.

It's not impossible that I'm Johnny Gosch.

[EFerrari]

66. Did you watch the segment yesterday?

If you did, you heard that Noreen Gosch approached Gannon directly and indirectly without any fanfare whatsoever. That's how "bizarre" she thinks this theory is.

[KoKo]

153. Noreen Gosch didn't seem "credible" to me....sorry. Not saying she isn't

trying to find her son...but that MSNBC episode made her look bad. I thought she was wearing a wig and wondered if she wasn't looking for money.

Now...to be fair, I know she didn't come forward on her own and was approached. If she's looking for her son...as any mother she probably would take ANY opportunity to find him...and be supportive of identification. But given the crap on TV today...she looked like a little bit of someone hoping for the son...but a little too much makeup and stuff. :shrug: I have to keep shrugging because who the hell knows what the truth of anything is today...but "IMAGE" is somewhat important to some of us who are over 45..and not so much into taking "Reality Shows" as more than tabloid trash. :shrug: another one :D

[BamaBecky]

189. Noreen use to be young and beautiful, and she has always had

lots and lots of hair. She is getting elderly. I do not buy your "notion" that someone "pushed" her out there with this story. Ever since it broke, she has wondered if Gannon is her son. She just isn't sure. I can't believe that you would ridicule her appearance, and accuse her of looking for money..Jeeeezus!

[troubleinwinter]

223. I have NO CLUE what you are talking about.

"too much makeup and stuff".

"IMAGE" is somewhat important to some of us who are over 45"

""Reality Shows" as more than tabloid trash"

Ms. Gosch's child was abducted off the street and is missing. She did not go to a makeup artist and try out for a part in a stage play as the mother of a kidnapped child.

Perhaps you'd be interested in some information about Ms. Gosch, her work and the foundation:

Noreen founded "THE JOHNNY GOSCH FOUNDATION", a month after the kidnapping and developed a program called "IN DEFENSE OF CHILDREN". She has presented more than seven hundred speeches all over the United States, reaching thousands of people. She wrote the "JOHNNY GOSCH BILL", which was passed into law in Iowa on July 1, 1984. A year later, Missouri as well as seven other states adopted the bill and passed it into law. This law, which is still called "THE JOHNNY GOSCH LAW", provides the immediate involvement of police when a child is missing, instead of the previous 72-hour policy of waiting.

The past twenty three years have been dedicated to trying to locate Johnny, but also to make the world safer for other children. During her programs, she shares the "PROFILE OF A PEDOPHILE", which enables many parents to be more aware of who may be in contact with their child and how to detect abnormal behavior. In many communities, following her program, arrests have been made due to the "new awareness of the informed public".

Her work has led her to Washington D.C. in August 1984, to testify at the "ORGANIZED CRIME SENATE HEARINGS", with Senator Specter. During hearings she shared the information gathered by her and private investigators as to the type of kidnapers that took her son and the relationship to organized crime. By going public with this information, she began to receive many death threats. These threats have continued throughout this investigation.


FAQs About The Johnny Gosch Foundation

1. What does the Johnny Gosch Foundation Do?

It serves an educational organization for families to learn about the "Profile of a Pedophile". It also provides a liason between parents and the Missing Childrens Center in Arlington VA.

2. How long has the Johnny Gosch Foundation existed?

It was formed in November of 1982... It has remained throughout the eighteen years Johnny Gosch has been missing.

3. What else does the organization do?

Throughout the 1980's.... major pieces of legislation were passed into law concerning the rights of abused and kidnapped children both on the state level and federal level. Noreen also presents programs in schools. Children relate in a better way when they meet her in person, there is a great deal of audience participation by the children.

4. How is the organization funded?

It is funded through private donations and revenue received through fund raisers and programs presented by Noreen Gosch, Johnny's mother.

5. Who founded the organization?

Johnny's mother, Noreen Gosch.

6. Does the organization help other families?

When parents of another kidnapped or murdered child contact the foundation. Noreen works with them to provide information and assistance necessary to remain active in the search for their child.

7. Does the Johnny Gosch Foundation work with law enforcement?

In most areas of the country, law enforcement welcomes any assistance possible when a child is missing. The Johnny Gosch Foundation offers its assistance to parents through law enforcement agencies.

8. How long will the Johnny Gosch Foundation be in existence?

It will remain active as long as there are funds to continue the programs.

9. Does the organization recommend private investigators?

If parents are interested in retaining a private investigator ... the foundation maintains a list and will share names with the parents.

10. Does the Johnny Gosch Foundation need money?

As long as there are sexually abused, kidnapped and murdered children the foundation will need the funds to operate. Crimes against children haven't taken a vacation in America.

[hiley]

240. troubleinwinter

your post was greatly needed. Noreen Gosch is a strong hard working Mother but we all need a helping hand at times and you rescue her reputation by your kind and thoughtful post. Which I might add is full of need to know information.
I thought her and Andy looked very nice yesterday and did well under the pressure of beau dietl's gruff and overbearing style. As far as make up and hair I have always felt to each is own. Andy was fantastic the way he answered the questions, I could not have done half as well with beau barely stopping
to breath.


http://www.seo-blog.org/5755_omfg_rageagainstthegop_machine

[KoKo]

249. Just now got your post.........and sorry If I offended you about this...

thanks for the additional info about Noreen. You have to understand that my impression was from what I viewed on MSNBC although I've read some of the Gosch threads...I haven't read every post.

Again, thanks for the additional info. :-)'s and Peace.

[Catherine Vincent]

278. Thank you for that, TIW.

[stellanoir]

6. "I think it's out there farther than the Oort Cloud."

Great line.

Dunno think it's really reaching till the DNA stuff is in.

But there are many layers of the Gannon BS that still warrant our attention. He's just so-o-o lame and has no ethics whatsoever.


It's potentially volcanic. IMHO Stay tuned.

[MADem]

8. I think it is a soft pitch set up to make the "left" look like fringe

loony tunes. How hard is it to find JimmyJeff's birth certificate? They didn't grow the kid in a basement, his mother had to go to a hospital and spit the little bastard out. Has anyone asked the little rent boy about it? This whole thing could be resolved with a half day's research, tops.

I think it is horseshit, personally.

[LoZoccolo]

9. Some people are just like that.

It's almost a mental illness. Even if they know they're being manipulative, there's still a problem of being shamelessly so when you know they're doing that, which in my opinion is still slightly mental.

[Rockerdem]

11. Internet trolling at its finest

[MuseRider]

12. I'm not ready to rule it out but

it still has a ways to go. It was interesting that Gannon will not deny then says he can't talk about it then says he will talk about it if someone asks then slams the door on them. Dunno, there is much to learn from this guy I think. Not sure this will be part of it but why not look into it? I just am not sure yet what I think but am willing to go along a while longer. Incidentally, I never read any of those threads being highly skeptical myself but listening to what was said on the MSNBC report I decided to open my mind up to the possibilities. Sorry, I can't convince you or myself yet.

[KoKo]

13. I'm skeptical, too.

While I applaud Andy and others for trying to go at the Guckert story from a different angle to keep attention focused on it, I thought whatever that Bo Dietl thing was looked pretty scummy. Andy was great but the rest of it seemed trashy....like some National Enquirer kind of stuff. I'm not a fan of that Dietl guy anyway...think he's connected to the mob and who knows what else.

But, that said, again I think that only tabloid stuff will keep Guckert story alive and if that's what we have to resort to in our desperation then it's maybe not some of our taste but has to be done. As long as the "powers in control" are trying to rehabilitate his image by inviting him to the National Press Club (and who knows what other "legitimizing" efforts are planned), then whatever can be thrown against him from another angle needs to be tried.

Corporate Whore Press Mainstream Media is causing us to have to seek other means to get attention to important stories :shrug:

[tanyev]

16. The thing that caught my attention in the wrinkles threads

was seeing all of the current photos of Gannon/Guckert next to each other. They did not all look like the same guy. There are a few that look like a man in his mid to late 40s, and there are a few that look like a younger man. Maybe if all of the photos had a date attributed to them it would be clear that the younger man photos were all taken several years ago. Maybe the Gosch idea is totally off the mark. But Gannon does seem to have some gaps in his history.

[MissWaverly]

251. I believe that Gannon is a liar

Who's to say that he was really Guckert, there is no military record
of him as Guckert, maybe he bought the Guckert ID on the "black market" I have heard that there is a market for things like this,
look at illegals who are working with fake SSN's, they get them from somewhere.

[Catchawave]

17. I've requested DNA tests be an option....

..in all my threads that have been ignored...lol.

[ohio_liberal]

36. There's no way in hell Guckert is going to give DNA

He's been involved in illegal activities that involve bodily fluids. He's not going to willingly give anyone his DNA.

[Dookus]

40. You really think

somebody's waiting to prosecute him for prostitution based on DNA?

[ohio_liberal]

80. No, but why would he take any chances?

:shrug:

FWIW, I don't think Guckert is Gosch. There's no way in hell Guckert is only 34 years old.

[Catchawave]

51. *Bingo*

So either he's guilty of something or just trying to extend his 15 minutes of fame? A quick swab would end this discussion once and for all, and we can move on...hey?

He should be the first to donate DNA to all these icky stories on the blogs and in the msm, ya'think !?!

Tell ya what guys, just forward your concerns to [e-mail]

I know Keith Olbermann's kept the election and gannon irregularities out *there*, and he IS the newsman for the 21st Century dammit!

We need to take the media back, right? See my sig :loveya:

[tx_dem41]

117. I love my civil liberties too much....

So I doubt I would voluntarily give up my DNA at the request of a mob. Heck, maybe he feels the same way.

[Enraged_Ape]

19. I'll say it: I find this whole Gosch thing ridiculous

Particularly since I haven't seen a single shred of evidence that Guckert/Gannon isn't at least 10 (and probably closer to 15) years older than the Gosch kid.

And it's a huge stretch to try to apply those photos of the 10-year-old-or-so Johnny Gosch to Gannon now, as so many are doing. I see no resemblance between the two whatsoever. I think anyone who does is probably a very creative person--much more so than I could ever be--but I really think it is impossible to make that kind of comparison.

But the biggest reason for my skepticism is that the MSM has now picked up the story. They are using it to try to ridicule us. If there were any shred of truth to any of the Gosch/Gannon/Guckert fantasia, they would be avoiding it like the plague, and everyone here knows it.

That's all I have to say about this.

[0007]

20. The question is why won't Jeff Gannon end it?

On one hand from what I've seen, I say NO!! And I believe a detective could make this conclusive. Then on the other hand their are a lot of unanswered questions that does make this a hellish mystery.

[Goldmund]

23. Because it keeps him in the public eye

[KoKo]

149. Because he's being run by folks who know how to "play things out."for Max!

:shrug:

[Orangepeel]

26. because he's a publicity whore who wants to extend his 15 minutes to 30 nt

[ohio_liberal]

37. Ding!

We have a winner! Attention whore is getting more attention. Why would he give it up?

[kenny blankenship]

35. When was the last time you asked him to?

Just curious.

He hasn't denied being Hitler's son either.

I THINK HE MUST BE HITLER'S SON!

Let him deny it. Everyone has to come along on my paranoid delusional fantasy trip until Gannon denies it. No- until HE PROVES he's not Hitler's son.

[burn the bush]

67. he refused to either deny or confirm it

[name not needed]

180. ass-tronaut

great username :hi:

[kenny blankenship]

203. Thanks

While we're trading compliments: your Barney has touched my soul.
I meant the good kind of touch. Gave me a good laugh the first time I saw it.

[norml]

21. I've never said that Gannon is Gosch. I've just tried to raise awareness

about the Franklin Cover Up. For me it's a local story. I lived through it. I believe the witnesses. There's a lot to be looked into. The connection I see is with underground prostitution, and the rich and powerful in the GOP. It would be quite sensational, if it were the same person, but I don't think it's as simple as that. I do think someone was being cute about the names. There may be a connection, but I don't know exactly what it is. Though I wouldn't want to discourage anyone from looking into it.

[zann725]

295. Yeah, I think the REAL point is NOT whether we can positively prove

that Gannon is Gosch. But that Gannon most likely was victimized in essentially the same way as Gosch...as a child sex slave to the Power Elite in D.C. The fact that Gannon seems to have little or no traceable friends, no military record, only ONE person from his high school/college who's come forward to say he even knew OF Gannon... despite the fact that Gannon was a class officer and active in SEVERAL class clubs/organizations.

Gannon's "military men" sex websites are a fact. Yet military recordes say Gannon was never in the military. The fact that Gannon got such "close" and "cordial" access to both the President and Scotty at Press Conferences WITHOUT any real journalistic background, leaves little room for doubt that Gannon's "familiarity" with higher-up's in the WH were his "ticket" in the West Wing door. Plus the irrepressible "sparkle" in both Scotty and Shrub's eyes when they addressed Gannon spoke "volumes." Scotty's given A LOT of press conferences, and I don't ever recall seeing that much "spark" or "emotion" when he called on a reporter before.

There is clearly something here far more than a schill planted in the newsroom to parrot back Repug talking points. And I don't think we should let it drop. The "Gannon Threads" SHOULD continue. Unless of course we want to continue "Pope" and "Schiavo" threads ad infinitum. Which would please M.S.M. and the Admin. greatly.

Yet we are NOT M.S.M., so let's do what we do best...brain-storm. So what if our tin foil rattles at times. We're onto something BIG. Let's not let it drop.

Gannon had lots of "inside" "advance" knowledge of major news events that no one else had ("Plame"...911...). How? From whom? And in what "position" did he hear these "leaks?"

[Me.]

24. Frankly I Don't Know The Truth Of The Matter

and am concerned it may be a trap. That said, what did catch my attention when I saw the interview was the mention of two birthmarks that they said Gosch and Gannon had in common.

[H2O Man]

46. Yes you do.

You do know the truth of this matter, and are holding back. Tell us what images come to your mind when you see the ink blots, er, birth marks on Gannon?

[Moosepoop]

27. Well, Will -- that's just it.

Facts have to be gathered in order to "prove" anything one way or another. Research has to be done, communication has to take place, avenues of inquiry must be traveled. Possibilities must be examined and either substantiated or discarded. Proof is the reward at the end of the process.

The problem is that the process itself seems to offend people for various reasons, and attempts are made to squelch any inquiries, and demand that any efforts toward the discovery of proof be halted. Some of the same people who say that there's nothing to it because there is no proof, scream the loudest at any attempt to go after the truth. I'm not referring to you, I'm just saying that the problem with providing enough facts to convince anyone of anything is the resistance put up by many to even gathering the facts.
It's pretty much a Catch-22 situation.

So what I ask of those who think this is the nuttiest endeavor in the history of the universe is to quit arguing over whether it should be investigated or not. Let it be investigated by those who think it should be, and if it turns out to have been a wild goose chase, then laugh your asses off and say "I told you so". But why the battle against it?

[BamaBecky]

33. I completely agree! n/t

[KoKo]

147. But, he's too old to be the Gosch child, isn't he? Why can't we find more

info about this guy. There's no way we can get him to submit to DNA tests but if the pressure keeps on maybe someone will step up and give us more info on the "missing years" of Guckert. Including why he picked "Jeff Ganon," instead of using Guckert. His excuse for that was lame and transparent.

Who IS this family he said was being harrassed? We know so little about him...but we DO KNOW he was being totted around by some in the military as a "stud" and being taken on trips. Jimmy/Jeff's Pillow talk is worth millions and maybe that's what he's holding out for? :shrug:

[Catherine Vincent]

282. Koko you realize that is one of the wrinkles....

Why did Guckert change his full name? Instead of going from James Guckert to James Gannon he did Jeff Gannon. Jeff? Some of us believe he didn't want to draw attention with the name James Gannon because the editor of the Des Moines paper when Gosch was kidnapped was James Gannon. That editor gave Mrs. Gosch a very hard time when her son was abducted. He treated the woman horribly. Why?

[RandomKoolzip]

28. Right on, Will.

Can we get back to some conspiracy theories that might actually have half a chance in hell of possibly, maybe even being slightly plausible?!

This kind of shit is giving legitimate CT research a bad name.

And you can replace "GannonGosch" with "Chemtrails," too.

[Old and In the Way]

30. If it's false, GG will play it out as long as possible.

Which is pretty scummy when you think about it. This women lost her son...if he's not Johnny Gosch, he ought to flat out say so instead of letting this poor women wonder and be worried sick about the situation he is in. Scoring cheap political points by stringing this out would really be pretty low, even for this guy. But I suspect that's why he's doing it. And, who knows? Maybe MSNBC is playing along with it....build it up, so when the balloon pops, sites like DU, Americablog, and some others can get throughly discredited.

Still, his lack of a clear history before Talon News is quite strange. How many people under this kind of scrunity could maintain a hidden past?

Personally, I don't have a problem with speculation. I'm not married to either position, but I'd like to see it resolved.

[Catherine Vincent]

283. How can a message board get discredited?

[tx_dem41]

32. I think the saddest thing about this "theory" is the false hope it might..

..be instilling in Mrs. Gosch. The poor woman has been through enough without having people recklessly trying to score political points.

[ohio_liberal]

38. That poor woman

If I were her I'm not so sure I would want him back if Guckert is actually Gosch

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

34. I thought we were done with this particular madness.

Will, I love you. You're great. But can we please just let this die? You and I both know it's bullshit.

[EFerrari]

48. I really don't understand how you can refer to missing children

as "bullshit". Maybe some of you just don't get it yet. This isn't solely about Johnny Gosch.

Have you any idea how many survivors on DU ALONE have been working on this? Lots.

I really do understand the skepticism on the Gosch question re "Gannon"; that's just healthy, imo. But there is a bigger picture here :)

[Dookus]

64. Please

nobody's referring to missing children as bullshit.

We're referring to saying Gannon = Gosch based on nothing but rampant speculation is bullshit.

[hiley]

87. Dookus since you care about children being missing you must

care about sexually abused children...


The RICO Campaign for
Survivor Justice Petition
Because justice for sexual abuse survivors of Roman Catholic priests and bishops will not come from within the Roman Catholic Church, The RICO Campaign for Survivor Justice Petition is underway.
The goal of this petition is to demand that the Federal Government begin a RICO investigation of the Roman Catholic Church in the United States.There is statutory authority for dealing with collective criminality — the Racketeer Influenced Corrupt Organization Act. The Roman Catholic Church as a corrupt organization enabled criminal activity and conspiracy by its bishops through their cover ups of the sexual abuse of children and youth for over the past 50 plus years.The church did not make, as it claims, “mistakes in management” by shuffling its clerical predators from parish to parish. Bishops made deliberate and determined decisions to protect sexual predators and leave thousands and thousands of children at risk. Furthermore, they deceived and lied to the parents of these children, telling them that they would take care of the “problem”. They didn’t. They significantly added to their suffering by moving priest predators to other parishes — repeatedly — sometimes for more than 30 years. These transfers gave clerical abusers ample opportunity to continue to abuse other children — and abuse they did. snip-----
GO HERE to SIGN Petition to help
http://www.voicesofoutrage.com/RICO-campaign.html




what is important is finding all the children even the grown ones.
Truth is our friend.

gannon/guckert/gosch reporting watch I.N.N.World Report on FreeSpeechTV or on the web site. They cover PNAC and all !
http://www.innworldreport.net/index.htm


http://www.seo-blog.org/5755_omfg_rageagainstthegop_mac ...

[WilliamPitt]

126. Straw man

I don't believe in this Gannon/Gosch thing, so therefore I must not care about abused children.

Horseshit.

Wanna know why people are having a hard time buying into this? Read your own post, analyse your tactics, and get a measuring tape to chart the wide gulf between your overheated rhetoric and the situation at hand.

Damn.

[hiley]

148. Will Pitt I did not say that to you or anyone else !

((I don't believe in this Gannon/Gosch thing, so therefore I must not care about abused children.)))
THOSE ARE NOT MY WORDS hiley


Will Pitt I did not say that above line to anyone !!!!!!!!
Read it over ! I told Dookas since I knew he cared about missing children he/she would care about sexually abused and offered Dookas a petition that was brought to my attention a month or so back and I have been passing it around ever since. Also, I posted the petition in hopes of others clicking on it and helping the survivors
I never ever accused you of anything Will Pitt. I have always been respectful to you and everyone else for that matter . What are you talking about. I tried to show you a different news source that investigates all kinds of news issues.
Show me what the in heavens name you are talking about ?

((Horseshit.

Wanna know why people are having a hard time buying into this? Read your own post, analyse your tactics, and get a measuring tape to chart the wide gulf between your overheated rhetoric and the situation at hand.

Damn.))


What overheated rhetoric and wide gulf, showing you another writer's work ? Showing examples of a news show that reports issue like Project for the New American Century ?
Showing you that they did a story on Paul Wellstone plane crash ? I have seen many refer to his death as a murder here at DU ! I don't have opinion on that subject just knew others were interested in it.
I asked you if you knew of Thomas Kiely or of I.N.N. or Freespeechtv.

Simple questions. Why did you attack me ? I did not accuse anyone of anything.

what is important is finding all the children even the grown ones.
Truth is our friend.

gannon/guckert/gosch reporting watch I.N.N.World Report on FreeSpeechTV or on the web site. They cover PNAC and all !
http://www.innworldreport.net/index.htm


http://www.seo-blog.org/5755_omfg_rageagainstthegop_mac ...

[WilliamPitt]

155. Your post 87

and sfxepat2000's above made it pretty clear that the both of you were connecting doubt over this story with the sexual abuse of children. I'm calling bullshit, and remain unconvinced by your explanation. Sorry.

[hiley]

172. this story is more than gannon/gosch

I was only responding to dookas because what dookas wrote made me think guess what dookas cares about children so I offered the petition which like I said before I have offered many times since presented to me. Why is it not right to provide information to others.
You can call bullshit all day long Will, You accused me of something I did not do.
You did not answer any of the questions.

copy and paste and show me

Have you heard of Thomas K. or not ?
Have you seen the news show from New York on freespeech ?
Just a few things I asked you when I posted

So convince me, Will I can not convince you.....And provided other news source
THE only time I directly addressed you before you wrote the BULLSHIT piece. hiley
http://www.seo-blog.org/5755_omfg_rageagainstthegop_machine

[BamaBecky]

265. Hiley, who is Thomas K? I must plead ignorant! n/t

[hiley]

279. From my original post to Will Pitt Thomas is Producer and writer.

Will Pitt, It would be nice and I would appreciate if you would read over the thread and answer me. You do own me apology because I did not do what you said and I am sure you will see that too.
I still respect you and your work but am disappointed that you have chosen to stand by your mistake.
hiley.
BamaBecky,
Thomas info. here
thanks for asking.hiley

So convince me, Will I can not convince you but I offer you

Edited on Sat Apr-09-05 04:06 PM by hiley
a look into some who still want to expose exactly who gannon / guckert / gosch is and how is any of it wrapped up in Franklin Coverup.

What if you knew a producer of news show not bo dietl show but a producer and staff that tells the truth on their show all the time.
Even about elections, torture All of It. Even PNAC, do you see that on any news shows except DemocracyNow! ?

Every once in awhile Matthews may elude a small tad to the NEO-CONS but I am talking expose' details .....
This producer is very intelligent and I.N.N.World Report is remarkable. I keep posting links and who knows if any bother to learn. They are Progressive and want our Democracy and truth to rule not the fucking farce that is happening and has been happening .
They do interviews with Author and I don't mean 2 minute bullshit in depth, and over several days, human rights everything !

Here is a snip from article Thomas Kiely wrote , do you know of him ? He is Producer of the show I.N.N.World Report.
I.N.N. is based in New York and have been airing for 4 or 5 years, I will have to look in my emails from Thomas to be sure how long.
They are not fly by night they are devoted to the cause protests and all !
Since, I.N.N. has already aired shows about not just gannon in the press room but is he johnny gosch, what did happen to the first milk carton boy ? Why won't America's Most Wanted give Noreen Gosch the tape of her show ? What happened with the Conspiracy of Silence that was to aire on Discovery ? Who took off, who destroyed all the tapes except for one smuggled to John DeCamp ? Who changed all the TVGuides' that had the show in it.
"The Missing Link: John Perkins’s "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man"

by Thomas Kiely

Once in a while an important gap between our knowledge of the tortured extremes of American foreign policy and a thinking person’s darkest suspicion is suddenly filled in. The secret U.S. government documents discovered by author James Bamford uncovering what has become known as “Operation North Woods” are one such example. In his May 2001 book on the National Security Agency “Body of Secrets” Bamford discloses this chilling list of suggestions, developed in 1962 by the Joint Chiefs of Staff, on ways to conduct terror operations against the citizens of the United States which would then be falsely blamed on Cuba and used as a pretext for an invasion.

snip-------

http://www.newtopiamagazine.net/content/issue19/feature...
At I.N.N.'s web site you may watch video and archives of shows . They are expanding across the nation and soon getting non-profit so they can do more and improve their web site. Below are some of the issues that are being covered my this people.
http://www.innworldreport.net/index.htm


Bama the rest is at 68
http://www.seo-blog.org/5755_omfg_rageagainstthegop_machine

[BamaBecky]

173. How do you divorce this story from child abuse? n/t

Gosch's abduction is directly related to a child sex ring. Will you don't sound open minded. You sound "wedded" and polorized to you "stance". IMHO

[WilliamPitt]

177. Um

Because I don't buy the iudea that Gannon is Gosch, ergo there is no child torture angle.

[BamaBecky]

187. You know what? I'm not so sure that Gannon is Gosch either, however

I think Gannon/Guckert is "somehow" connected to Gosch. And, thereby to the child abuse scandal. What makes you so dad blame sure that he isn't connected to Gosch in some way? What's your evidence? And why could Gannon/Guckert just deny it out right? Wouldn't that make a hell of a lot of sense from your perspective? In stead, he hides behind his lawyers advice and slams doors in the face of folks who bring it up????????? What's up with all that?

[merh]

212. Why no response or counter to my post that logically makes

the connection you so seek?

:shrug:

[EFerrari]

288. No, that's not it.

This story, or rather this matrix of stories has always been about the sexual abuse of children, no matter the adjectives you chose to employ.

And, no one is holding a gun to your head to buy in, Will.

[EFerrari]

154. Again, I don't get this response.

hiley seems to have posted a petition to a thread that is, in part, concerned about the sexual exploitation of children.

How is that horseshit? How is that "overheated rhetoric" lol, when it's a widely circulated petition for justice for these abuses?

I think you may want to use a wider lens, Will. Because the gulf between what hiley posted and your reaction is a bit wide.

The thing is, simply, you and others are responding to something that was never said. To a claim that was never made. Makes for good drama but not for productive discussion.

[KoKo]

178. Because: Just since "Franklin Child Abuse" hasn't been covered properly

should we jump and say that "Jimmy/Jeff" is a way to get some coverage?

I was horrified when I read the cases of the Franklin abuse..and the CIA drugging children. I've been on DU awhile and have read most of the evil stuff that our CIA and Government have been responsible for doing at home and worldwide..and even before I joined DU, I knew a little of this...enough to make me "politically active."

BUT...connecting "Jimmy/Jeff" as a Franklin Kids survivor is only useful as a "last resort." To get attention from the American People today is almost impossible. To imagine they would rise up and DEMAND an investigation of "Franklin Abuses" because someone exposed that "Jimmy/Jeff" was Gosch is really too much to hope for and in fact isn't realistic.

Unless Bo Dietl is a tool for George Soros and has enough funding to carry the Gosch/Guckert story way beyond "reality" then I think we do need to worry that some of us on this website might end up with "egg on our faces."

BUT....do I think it's worth going after? Yes..to an extent, in that it's all we have left to keep stories alive. BUT...should Pitt post in SUPPORT of this on TRUTH OUT? NO....NO....NO...NO!!!!!!!

This is a "Fringey Story." Push it and get the "sleaze factor in it."

But...it just isn't Legit enough to be credible over the long haul. Many average Americans might enjoy the "smut factor" though.....so push it. It might wake some of them up..if they really opened the can of snakes about "Franklin Group."

And...believe me ...I think Poppy and others were heavily involved with that one...so I'm a DU :tinfoilhat: on this...just not as devoted as some of you. :D

[EFerrari]

185. LOL! I think I get what you mean.

And among the Wrinkles group -- this is still open and that still needs good clear heads, btw -- this was not planned at all.

lol

We weren't sort of attuned enough to try to get coverage! Isn't that amazing?


Bottom line for me is, there has to be some way to push on the pedophilia rings that are ONGOING, and, to settle this question. And, to do that without in any way letting the Bu$h White House off the hook for their paid propagandists.

It's not simple,for sure.

[KoKo]

211. Mucho thanks for getting what I "think" I was trying to say!!!!

:D

[EFerrari]

213. Thank you. (wipes brow) n/t

[ebayfool]

302. Bo Dietl is a more likely a tool for RNC, his company &/or employees.

have done work for RNC, has a house id # to lobby for
the pharmaceutical industry, etc. I think DU is being goaded into not giving up this this Gannon/Gosch connection to keep people from looking at what they were originally asking about ... who is jimmy/jeff & who got him into the press room, leaked info, covered for him, etc. Even the freepers were all over the Gosch/pedophile stuff a while back, it's the kind of horror that will grab anyone's attention. But, I seriously think it's being fanned as a convenient diversion by someone - whoever is worried about what continued checking into jimmy/jeff would reveal. Gannon's mysterious background doesn't automatically default to him being this poor kid.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3450376&mesg_id=3453053

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a388cd49f5ce8.htm#71

[BamaBecky]

169. You sound overheated yourself Will????????n/t

[hiley]

And what overheated Rhetoric did I use anyhow ?

Come on you are a writer and fucking good one so why don't you answer my questions, Will.
For you information I have never been anything to you,
But I respected you and your work and read it all the time and even listen to your over views.
Now,you accused me of something I did not do.

Will Pitt you made it personal, why ?



Respect goes both ways,
am I not important enough for you to go sentence by sentence and tell me where my Rhetoric is overheated before you attacked me ?

I strongly feel An apology is in order and let me be crystal clear you owe me an apology. I have done Not a damn thing to you. AND that is NO bullshit. hiley


http://www.seo-blog.org/5755_omfg_rageagainstthegop_machine

[enid602]

150. abuse

SFexpat: you mean to say that some of the DU posters are government-sponsored sexual abuse survivors? I did not hear that. More dtails, please.

[merh]

160. It is up to the survivors to share their stories and pieces of their

lives with you. It is not sfexpat's place to expound upon the statement or to betray the confidences she holds. As you can see from the ridicule expressed by some and the attacks made by others who view this as a "closed subject", a survivor may not feel comfortable sharing their life experiences here, they might be taunted, ridiculed and attacked.

Just know that DU consists of many, many people with varying life experiences and some are in fact survivors.

BTW: Welcome to DU! :hi:

[MissB]

39. Short of a DNA test,

nothing is going to convince me. :shrug:

[roseBudd]

79. The web designer who designed the first escort site said Guckert...

looked like he was 40 in 2000. Guckert is not in his 30s.

[deutsey]

41. "If they can get you to ask the wrong questions

they don't have to worry about the answers."

These kinds of theories remind me of this line from "Gravity's Rainbow."

Maybe there is something to this thing, but it seems to me there are more pressing and important concerns not requiring a lot of theorizing that demand our attention and action.

[H2O Man]

42. Interesting post.

I think that it would be possible to address, even in T.O., not as a story that is likely to be true, but rather as a phenomenon. I find that a number of people from DU who I respect very much seem to find it a real possibility. I do not. I read their information with an open mind, but it doesn't seem real to me.

I disagree, respectfully, with your statement about this being a product of the internet. This is, rather, just an example of this type of phenomenon occuring on the internet; however, it is one of many such issues that has occured for thousands of years.

At the same time that I do not believe it to be true, I find that it is worthy of discussion. I do not think that it reflects "badly" in any way on the democratic left. It may focus more attention on the important issue of who this fellow Gannon really is.

[WilliamPitt]

54. Agreed. If I didn't think it worthy of discussion

I wouldn't have started a thread about it.

[H2O Man]

59. True.

Others do not appear to feel the same, however, and I was making that point in a general way. I did not mean to imply that you were taking the opposite position.

I am curious about one thing from your perspective, however: do you think that it is odd that the mainstream media did not report more on this fellow's background? It seems that if anyone does anything "newsworthy," the MSM is able to tell about him/her in great detail within hours. Gannon seemed to be less well-documented.

[tavalon]

217. I also don't buy the Guckert/Gosch connection

but found it very odd that neither the corporate media (who granted didn't try as hard) nor the bloggers who were on this situation were able to dig into his past.

I'm guessing that's why this connection was created by a subset of bloggers. It was a void just itching to be filled.

But why the void? That's the interesting point in my opinion.

[H2O Man]

268. I still hope

that you would share your thoughts on what seems to be a lack of knowledge about Mr. Gannon's background. Again, this is speculation, but I think if a prostitute had made their way in for numerous White House press conferences under President Clinton, and was on a first name basis with the President and his men, that the media would have dug into the prostitute's background. I'd think that it is reasonable to assume we would have heard all about hat prostitute and his family background. It strikes me as singular that in terms of Gannon's past, we know only the tiny bit of information that he, himself, posted on the internet or released to the media.

Does that strike you as normal, Will Pitt?

[hiley]

73. H2O Man Thank you for you open mind and progressive thinking.

(At the same time that I do not believe it to be true, I find that it is worthy of discussion. I do not think that it reflects "badly" in any way on the democratic left. It may focus more attention on the important issue of who this fellow Gannon really is.)

Thank you also for not judging us and not ridiculing us.


what is important is finding all the children even the grown ones.
Truth is our friend.

gannon/guckert/gosch reporting watch I.N.N.World Report on FreeSpeechTV or on the web site. They cover PNAC and all !
http://www.innworldreport.net/index.htm


http://www.seo-blog.org/5755_omfg_rageagainstthegop_mac ...

[H2O Man]

124. Certainly.

I think that people not only have the right, but indeed have the duty to ask questions. I think that people involved with this are asking questions in all sincerity. And, as Malcolm X used to say, the only stupid question is the one that remains unasked.

I think those who discourage open discussion are the ones who would shame the democratic left.

[hiley]

134. So true and I admire your patriotism because that is

exactly what it is all about. Real patriotism and open democracy comes from questioning and standing up to authority.
Have you seen the news show yet that I wrote about ?
LinkTV, FreeSpeechTV are the best channels ever.
I cherish them along with cspan and sundance channel.
Thank you again for your kindness for kindness and respect are lacking sometimes in this crazy world we live in.
BTW they have a Malcolm X special on their web site, can't remember right now if you can watch it there or if it is one to buy.


what is important is finding all the children even the grown ones.
Truth is our friend.

gannon/guckert/gosch reporting watch I.N.N.World Report on FreeSpeechTV or on the web site. They cover PNAC and all !
http://www.innworldreport.net/index.htm


http://www.seo-blog.org/5755_omfg_rageagainstthegop_mac ...

[H2O Man]

140. I love Link TV

It is the single best station that I am aware of.

One of the most dangerous things that is occuring in our culture is the limitations we place on thinking (and hence discussion). If I remember correctly -- and at my age, I rarely seem to any more -- Erich Fromm wrote about just this in his introduction to A.S. Neill's book, "Summerhill." We have an unidentified authority, which we could call a herd mentality, that teaches us not to think outside the box. It instills a fear of being thought "different" than the herd.

That type of thinking cripples our ability to find the truth in all areas of our lives, from our individual, day to day existence, to our potential to live as free people in a democratic society. History has shown that, in fact, all tyranny is rooted in fraud and deceit, and in convincing people to accept bold-faced lies on face-value. For this reason, any American who abandons the questioning spirit (that is clearly encouraged in the Constitution), has betrayed their duties as a citizen, and let down all of their fellow-citizens.

[hiley]

158. H2O Man Your posts are so refreshing

and moving. Reminds me of Sen. Byrd when he pulls out his copy of the Constitution.
thank you, again.











http://www.seo-blog.org/5755_omfg_rageagainstthegop_machine

[mzmolly]

165. I agree that regardless of the outcome, it's worthy of dicussion for a

number fo reasons. The first as you point out is that we should find out "who Gannon really is." Additionally, it's certainly not a bad thing to bring to light the issue of child sex slavery - which sadly appears to be largely "ignored."

[EFerrari]

43. Interesting.

I don't see that the internet allows people to make false connections. People pretty much have always done that. (Ask any college English 1A teacher. lol)

And, to add to Moosepoop's remarks, there isn't one story here. There's a matrix of stories. One of them involves the Gosch/Guckert/WhoEVER question.

Convince you? I can't convince you of something that I'm not certain of and have limited evidence for. And the huge whistling gaps are the most interesting parts, at this point. You see them as a problem (bad); I see them as a problem (interesting). Two pretty disparate viewpoints.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[merh]

47. Let's talk about whistling gaps.

Daily Kos tracked down the name James Guckert and found that he did or does exist. They provided a time line of his life up to 2001, when out of the blue, an average, apolitical office manager quit his job at a trucking company in Delaware to become a partisan, political journalist in Washington D.C. They have failed to say how he got his foot in the door, they just have told us this is what he purportedly did.

This "average joe", with limited education and experience (2 day course put on by repug "leadership" group and sports writing for his high school paper) begins "writing" for a repug partisan "news source" and then gets access to the White House apparently without being cleared by the SS & FBI. He regurgitates WH press releases as his "news stories", he asks partisan and favorable questions of the Presidents, and he plagarizes, stealing stories from other journalists, claiming them as his own.

Then, after taunting bloggers and DU, it is discovered that he operated and advertised on "male escort" websites. His nude photographs were displayed on public sites, available to all that are willing to pay, and the reviews of his services and talents are published on the sites.

Once this is discovered, the press does not question why a "male prostitute" has been provided day passes to sit within 20 feet of the president. The bloggers question his access and why the press has not questioned any member of the administration, past or present, about his "moonlighting" activities.

The unasked and unanswered questions lead the curious to wonder why this story is not properly investigated or reported. The obvious assumption is that Gannon has gained access to the White House because of a personal and possibly unsavory (in the eyes of the moral majority) relationship with someone in the White House, someone with enough clout as to override the requirement that members of the press pass SS and FBI clearance. If the "relationship" is an active relationship, then of course, the double standards of the administration are at issue. Do as we say, not as we do. If it is a past relationship, then the question is "could Gannon be blackmailing someone in the admin?" The use of blackmail and "questionable" personal relationships is a national security issue, as those type of activities have been used for centuries to spy on governments and to improperly gain influence in governments. Again, the unasked and unanswered questions are what fuel the inquiries.

Then, the question arises, could history be repeating itself. What similiarities exist with Gannon and other scandals in the White House, scandals that involved members of the BFEE? Well, there was that story reported in the late '80s about poppy and the children being brought to the White House for purposes of sex. Yes, it was alleged that poppy and high ranking members of his admin and of congress were involved in pedophile rings. Let me stop here to try to make it perfectly clear, the discussion of pedophilia is not an effort to insult or degrade homosexuals or to try to make any type of connection between homosexuality and pedophilia. Nothing is further from the truth. The pedophilia allegations that relate to poppy's admin and the CIA psych op programs involved sex with minors of both sexes. It was not limited to man with boy and those that try to discourage the discussion of the pedophilia scandals for fear that it is an effort to harm homosexuals are off base and do not understand the issues.

Like rape, the sexual scandals and child sex rings that are the suject of the inquires, the sex acts perpetrated against the victims, are about power, control and perversion. They are crimes, horrendous crimes and they are not about misunderstood sexual orientation or desires.

Now we are at the stage of how did Gosch become a part of the inquiries. Of course you know that Noreen reported that she meet with Johnnie in 1997 and he told her of the evil child sex ring that involves members of the government. He fearly shared with her his experiences and left her after a few hours. How, then does that relate to our inquiries? What common ties do we have?

Gannon - unsavory sexual behavior that goes unchallenged and is not questioned before he is allowed into the Bush White House, without having the necessary education, experience or credentials to be a member of the White House press corp, a position that is denied to others with existing education, experience and legitimate credentials.

Common denominators - sex - white house - scandal - BFEE.

Those that deny the possiblity that Gannon could be Gosch have assumed that because Gannon, a known liar with questionable motives, has said he is Jeff Guckert. A brave DUer travels to Guckert's high school, obtains copies of his yearbook photos and shares them with us. Because there are facial similiarites, it is assumed that Gannon has been honest and is in fact Guckert. Therefore, Gannon is the 47 year old Guckert and he cannot be Gosch.

Others, who have noticed the obvious similarities shared by Gannon Noreen and Johnnie Gosch, Sr. and the young Johnnie Gosch are not discouraged. They look closer at the known images of Gannon and notice the birthmark on his chest and the scar on his check and realize that these are identifying marks listed for young Gosch. They look closer at the Guckert images and realize that there are differences that cannot be explained away by age and they even notice that some of the known images of Gannon are not identical. Some images of Gannon appear to be of a 47 year old man, some appear to be of a younger man.

Noreen is contacted and she acknowledges the possibility that Gannon could be Johnnie. She does not deny it out right and she references again the birth mark and the scar. She too is left to question. The Des Moines Register publishes an article that tries to down play the "conspiracy theories" of the internet bloggers, but at the same time, it allows the issues to remain and it discusses the child sex scandals that have plaqued the BFEE for almost 30 years now. Another weekly Iowa paper publishes an in-depth article that discusses what you ask. Any time that article is linked here the post is deleted. If you would like the link, I will gladly pmail it to you. Of note, allegedly the man that edited that newspaper and wrote that article was fired shortly after it was published and the paper's name changed. Again, if you would like a link, please let me know.

Bottom line, you are the reporter. It is your job to convince us that Guckert is Gannon and that Gannon is Guckert. It is the job of journalists to investigate this story, not mine. I continue to research the subject because I have found it fascinating, not because of its subject matter, but because of the failure to have it properly investigated.

[H2O Man]

55. These are serious points.

I do not think the entity known as "Guckert" is real. From day one, it seemed sketchy. I think that Guckert/Gannon is a legend. However, I could easily be wrong. It could be that he is the kid who was kidnapped. It could be something else.

I think that it is good to discuss this topic. I do not think that we should avoid the topic, or have threads locked, or allow the issue to divide.

When we watch the news, it seems the corporate media is able to tell us about almost anyone -- often in great detail -- in a matter of hours. Yet with Guckert/Gannon, we still only know a few things. And most of these seem to be the information he has put forward, be it true or false.

If we start there, with the fact that a person who was in White House press conferences, on a first-name basis with those in the administration, seems to have no past ..... then we can come up with possible explanations.

[EFerrari]

58. No past or multiple conflicting pasts! Quite a puzzle. n/t

[kohodog]

162. CIA?

I must admit to being a casual observer of the wrinkle and other Gannon/Guckert threads. It has struck me that no one has come forward as having known him. There are no character references, friends, high school buddies who have spoken up and I find that unusual. Witness protection and CIA are two alternatives (and i don't really think either are likely) to explain people with no real past.

That is what makes this a compelling story for me. What is known about his family? When Gannongate broke he quit Talon because his family was being harassed if I remember. Who are they and what is the relationship?

[tavalon]

222. Yeah, that's the one thing that bugs me too

I've never seen anyone who comes under the attention of the media (be it corporate or the new blogoshere) who doesn't have every little detail of their life, current and past, unearthed. How is it that none of his friends have been found or the "family" he claims.

It is odd.

[senseandsensibility]

241. deleted by poster

[MissWaverly]

266. That's my feel as well

there's something unreal about the man, when I see him I feel
like what I am seeing is an illusion.

[Dookus]

61. Not quite

you wrote "Those that deny the possiblity that Gannon could be Gosch have assumed that because Gannon, a known liar with questionable motives, has said he is Jeff Guckert."

We deny it because there's no more evidence that Gannon is Gosch than there is that he's the Lindbergh baby.

[merh]

70. You are so mistaken.

The birthmarks as seen on known images of Gannon that correlate to the birthmarks that were Johnnie Gosch's identifiers are stronger identifiers than simple "looks likes" id's made by strangers.

What I find curious is why so many have spent so much time trying to "kill" the discussion rather than just ignore it. If they feel it is useless or silly why even worry about it?

Do they believe the LIHOP or MIHOP theories? If they don't believe them, do they spend time going to the 9/11 forums trying to convince others that they are right and that those that share the LIHOP/MIHOP positions are kooky conspiracy theorists trying to harm the reputation of DU?

DU is a message board, if it had any political power or the ability to alter the efforts of the admin and the moral majority, the 2004 election would not have been stolen, the USofA would never have begun an illegal and immoral war and 9/11 would be thoroughly investigated.

We share common goals, we share common concerns, but to think that our "credibility" has any impact on the operations of our government is to think that discussion an issue alone can bring about change. Discussions are important, but proactive, unified efforts are the key. Our credibility comes from viable grassroots efforts to be heard, not from discussing possibilities on the internet.

The horrendous criminal enterprises that involve the current administration and the various members of congress are many. To close our eyes to one such scandal because it is "out there" is to, in effect, become an accomplice to the crime. I, for one, do not want the child sex rings to flourish because the theory is so extreme or hard to fathom. Because kids are at risk, I feel that I must take part in the efforts to bring the scandals to light, to stop the abuse.

[H2O Man]

113. The single best point on this thread

is when you question why people would want to kill this discussion.

"Intolerance betrays a want of faith in one's cause." - Gandhi.

I think the discussion of who this fellow Gannon is ranks fairly high up in importance, when compared to any or all of the others since the November election. When I said, early on, that I felt the gay prostitute business was a legend, I was surprised that some of my beast friends on DU kept telling not to write that, because I risked being humiliated. I think the greater risk of a fate worse than humiliation is to not question. I'll cast my lot with those who question everything, and I'm proud to do that.

[merh]

137. My friend, you and I have shared a common interst in

the outing of Plame. Mr. Gannon, the ace WH reporter, some how was provided insight into the story and tried to downplay the outing, taking the admins position and go so far as to have referenced a memo that we now understand didn't exist.

His relationships within or ties to the WH are suspect. Why has the corporate media failed to question why a "male escort", that posted both his nude images and the "raving" reviews of his talents on the internet, was allowed unfettered access to the WH? Mata Hara has nothing on this guy. His moonlighting activities are not his personal business when they are his "business" and when they are illegal. Prostitution is illegal in DC and in Delaware, yet no one has asked him why he was so cocky as to ask the president partisan questions at the same time he advertised his talents and his body on the internet. Why was he so brave to do that? What ties does he have that shield him from true scrutiny, first by the SS and FBI, and now by the corporate media?

As I stated earlier, because the issues that surround Gannon involve sex and they should be considered yet another scandal of the WH, the connection between a previously reported and dismissed scandal that involved a member of the Bush family and the WH is obviously made. That scandal involved pedophilia or child sex rings. Then when one learns that Noreen was told by her son Johnnie that he had been kidnapped and forced to be a victim of the child sex rings that are allegedly operated by high ranking members of our government, if not our government itself, the connections are again made.

We know that Jeff Gannon is a fictional creation that "came to life" in approximately 2001. We know that there was a James Guckert that attended college in 1980. We also know that when he returned as an alumnus to that college and as a big brother to his frat, the active fraternity members questioned whether or not he was a "spook" or member of the FBI or CIA. They questioned it so much that discussion of it is had in the minutes of their meetings.

I cannot say and am not saying Jeff Gannon is Johnnie Gosch, Jr. I am saying that I can't be sure that he is James Guckert.

I am saying that trying to shut down the discussion of this matter only makes me the more curious. Like the LIHOP & MIHOP theories, I don't know if either or true, I do know that I put nothing past the administration that lies about WMDs to wage an illegal and immoral war and occupation of a nation and a people; that used the wounds of a nation that suffered vehemently from the 9/11 attack to pass unconstiutional laws that infringe upon my constitutional rights; that used 9/11 to justify their attacks on nations; that was involved in outing a covert CIA agent that was trying to protect our national security; and, that stole elections in 2000, 2002 and 2004.

The matter is worthy of discussion. Not for Gannon's sake, but for the sake of the children that are the victims of the evil and for the sake of the nation that I love so dearly.

[H2O Man]

142. "When it is relevant,

truth has to be uttered, however unpleasant it may be." - Gandhi

I agree with you 100%. If others find the discussion to be unpleasant, they should simply go to another thread. There should be no attempts to limit a frank and open discussion of this or any other relevant topic.

[DemonFighterLives]

74. Good job

You kind of hit on many points. He has not been properly investigated.

As far as this subject hurting DU or dems, I hardly think so. Anyone dangling all of these different tidbits out there deserves to be investigated. I don't know of anyone from the Wrinkles threads who has really come to a conclusion. There are many facets of interest to the story. I don't know if he is Gosch, but the cheek scar kinda makes ya wonder. This fellow Gannon who appears to be a prostitute superman with his mail order journalism degree is not fit for the White House Press room. Typically this place would have the cream of the crop of reporters. Of course with this regime in power, they all seem weak kneed and scared to ask any revealing questions. Just blah, blah, blah, God bless the Pres.

Who knows where this will lead, but one thing that has gnawed at me is the lack of any other pictures of Gosch. Also, some rather amazing gaps in Gannon (guckert?)'s life. It is the name that was given him -ha It's the name on his license -ha. Nobody is forthcoming with information in this case.

[merh]

82. No conclusions have been reached.

And the more people try to stop the discussions or to scoff at the possibilities, the louder the bells ring in my head that there is something there, something that people in power do not want uncovered.

:hi:

[EFerrari]

84. Exactly. Who is he? We're still asking.

So, it's a little premature to say this story is "bull$hit" when we're still spreading the puzzle pieces out on the table. :)

[H2O Man]

119. When that

disturbed kid shot up the school, the news was able to report his life history, including information about his extended family, within a couple hours. And this was a minor, living within the "closed" context of an Indian territory.

When a disturbed father went and shot the football coach earlier this week, the news was able to tell us quite a bit about him before the police had even caught him.

Now I'll be damned if there isn't something mighty damned funny about our friend Mr. Gannon, who was sitting comfortably among what are supposed to be the elite of that corporate media. Rubbing shoulders with them. On a first name basis with the good ole' boys in the White House, even good ole' George.

Who is he? How in the heck can anyone say with confidence?

[EFerrari]

128. That's right. Who is he and who knows?

The only people who have come forward are unvetted themselves.

The Wrinkles were probably unwise in how loose we got with linking. (Apologies to Skinner and the admins and mods for thoughtlessness.) But, it was a real challenge to try to dig up anything ANYWHERE on Mr. "Gannon" so we were even looking in places we'd normally discount -- not for literal content, but to try to pick up clues, scraps, anything that would give us a lead.

Thanks for your understanding, H20 Man.

There's an elephant under the carpet here. It may not be Johnny Gosch. But if in the process a little light is shone on these kids and the rings that ruin their lives, can that hurt, really?

We've tried to be so very careful about making claims of any kind. If you saw Andy yesterday, you'd notice how measured his responses were, as were Noreen's.

Let's see how we do.

[H2O Man]

132. I saw Andy.

I thought it was an interesting segment. I did not feel that anyone was humiliated by having a frank discussion. I think that people can discuss uncomfortable topics respectfully.

[EFerrari]

135. And this one is uncomfortable in many directions, for sure. n/t

[hiley]

138. Indeed !

Who is he ? that is what I am

damn determined to find out amoung many other things. MSM sure can uncover anything that they "FEEL LIKE" uncovering ! but not gannon, hmm, it is very strange isn't it ?










what is important is finding all the children even the grown ones.
Truth is our friend.
gannon/guckert/gosch reporting watch I.N.N.World Report on FreeSpeechTV or on the web site. They cover PNAC and all !
http://www.innworldreport.net/index.htm
http://www.seo-blog.org/5755_omfg_rageagainstthegop_mac ...

[slaveplanet]

92. stop confusing everyone

with logic.

I wonder if it will last the day before termination....

[merh]

96. LOL -

Hopefully we can keep the discussion civil. I know that I intend to try. :hi:

[Me.]

133. Wow Merh

You make quite a case. I hope you keep going with this so that at some point you can come back and say yea or nay to your complete satisfaction.

[merh]

164. The more people try to shut down my inquiries and ridicule my

positions, the more determined I am to continue asking questions and seeking answers.

This involves abuse of children, it cannot be tolerated. Even if Gosch has no connection to Gannon, the subject of the child sex rings must be persued, for the sake of the children.

[KoKo]

239. I think everyone here would agree with you there...

but Guckert might not be the vehicle to do it. Franklin case is so terrible that it should stand alone. Do you think they would really put a "Franklin Kid" out there to be exposed?

That's one of my problems with the connection. Rove has us running around chasing our tails like a dog in the country.

Guckert was handed to us on a platter. Why? That's all...just being cautious.

[merh]

277. Do you really think that they realized he was a Franklin kid?

What makes you think they realized he was a Franklin kid?

What if he was a survivor that was using the "skills" they taught him to exploit those that exploited him? Gannon said he is "hiding in plain sight". Survivors that escaped their "cult" or "ring" or "employ" are in fear for their lives. What better way to stop running away and hiding from "them" than to "hide in plain" sight and to use them the way they used you?

:shrug:

[Catherine Vincent]

285. It's too bad you didn't participate in the wrinkle threads, Koko....

(or did you?) Anyway, you said "do you think they would really put a Franklin Kid out there to be exposed?"

Some of us thought about that and gathered that the opposite happened. Remember, Johnny Gosch escaped from his captors. Gannon (along with Gosch) could be collecting info on his perpetrators together. Another one of the many wrinkles, Koko.:-)

[KoKo]

168. merh....so much of what you say is convincing enough...BUT the guy I saw

on the National Press Club on C-Span 2 (Journalism and Blogging)as Gannon/Guckert had shaved his head to cover up that his hair is grey! Now lots of folks turn "grey" early. But this person who is much older than the "Fawn/Spread Eagle" pics we saw on those web sites. So, is it possible he could really be Johnny Gosch?

[merh]

174. Are you asking if the Gannon at the National Press Club

was Gosch? If you are, I really don't know. I was at work when this was on and was trying to watch it, but I could only listen.

I have not had the time to carefully examine the video tape to determine if that was Gosch.

I know young balding men with graying hair that shave their head because they are embarassed to be going bald. I know older men that shave their head because they are almost completely bald. The younger men that shave their head appear older, more mature, the older men appear younger. In essence, the absence of hair on men can appear to make them for lack of a better phrase, "suspended in time", you really cannot tell how old they really are.

Here is a tricky question for you -- is it possible that two people can be sharing the alter ego that is Gannon? :shrug:

All of the questions lead us to one certainty - we do not have all the answers and we really do not know "Jeff Gannon".

[KoKo]

243. I know this is important to you....

but check out the C-Span replay that is posted somewhere here on DU in one of the DU Groups. DU'er "Paininthearse" has a C-Span thread in "Groups" that should give link to the replay video.

I was checking the roots of his baldness and it was all grey and he has aged much since his "Fawn" photo's on the website.

I'd put him in late 40's. Does that still mean he could be Johnny Gosch?

[merh]

257. I will check out the forum, I didn't know about that group, thank you.

Guckert would be 47 - Gosch would be in his late '30's.

I have a friend that was gray at age 25. Gray hairs have nothing to do with age and early graying is one reason why some mean shave their head.

Another DUer has opined that the man that appeared on the National Press panel that was aired on Cspan appeared to be younger than 40. Again, it is a matter of perspective, isn't it.

[MissWaverly]

270. appearances can be deceiving

I once worked with guy who looked like Santa Claus' younger brother,
white hair, stooped over, shuffling gate, I assumed that he would be retiring soon until the day I found out he was only 45. I am convinced that emotional trauma, illness and abuse can artificially age people.

[merh]

272. A very good point!

Thank you for your insight. :hi:

[MissWaverly]

274. Thanks for your support

I hope the whole thing is resolved soon.

[mzmolly]

214. This is one helluva post!

:yourock: I love the way you lay this all out. I did NOT know that Kos indicated JD Guckert "does not exist." WOW!

[merh]

244. No, Daily kos claims that because Guckert does in fact exist

he must be Gannon because Gannon has said that is "the name on my drivers license is Jame Guckert". :freak:

I have just tried to explain that the connection between Gannon -- WH journalist extradionaire; male escort; nude, internet exhibitionist; "talented" physicial trainer that prefers the top -- and the Franklin child sex ring scandals of 41's admin is not that great of a leap.

:hi:

[mzmolly]

247. I agree, it's not a leap at all, and Gannon STILL needs to be investigated

:hi:

[Lucid Code]

49. Why all the flaming?

"Bullshit"; "conspiracy throry"; "you're hurting the group by choosing to spend time with this"

Would it kill anyone to just say I don't know/I don't care/There's no solid evidence/My money is on x or something else that is not just an ad hominem attack on other board members.

[EFerrari]

52. Now, there's an idea.

I'm tired of being called a homophobe, an anti-semite, delusional, a "plant", LOL, etc.

Welcome to Du, btw!

[tx_dem41]

76. "you're hurting the group by choosing to spend time with this"

You answered your own question.

[merh]

81. Would you please explain this to me?

How does discussing this hurt "the group" and who is "the group"?

:shrug:

[tx_dem41]

90. The title of my post was lifted from the post I was responding to...

...you'll have to ask them.

[merh]

114. You adopted it as your own when you responded.

So please, explain to me what you mean. :freak:

I believe the other poster was trying to understand the same thing that I am asking. Kindly share why you adopted the position when you wrote
"You answered your own question.", if you can.

[EFerrari]

83. How does being concerned about abducted children

hurt "the group" ?

I've asked this several times and get no clear answer. :shrug:

[tx_dem41]

91. I find it hard to believe that many people involved in this are...

"concerned for abducted children". If they were they would have dropped this theory after the yearbook pics came out, and stopped dragging poor Mrs. Gosch through this continued hell.

Nope, I believe most people are just following their obsession with "getting" the BFEE, disregarding anyone that gets in their way.

The sad thing is, that while this obsession continues, REAL stories get posted on this forum, stories that really should bring BFEE down. Yet, hardly anyone pays attention to them.

[EFerrari]

103. Sorry, I don't copy that.

How should the introduction of the high school pictures, which I saw the moment they were posted, diminish the concern for the ongoing exploitation of children?

I've been pretty close to the center of these inquiries, tx-dem41. We're very much concerned about the kids. As is Noreen. She's moved far beyond her own personal loss to try an alleviate or prevent other parents from suffering similar losses.

So, your assumptions on these two points are a little wide of what we're doing.

And, if you take a minute to notice, the same core people who are pursuing this and related stories, are among the most active DUers -- in the meat world and on a variety of issues. Attending to one concern doesn't mean dropping all others. :)

[tx_dem41]

109. I didn't make myself clear...

I meant that I don't think many people are pushing this theory because of their concern for abducted children. I did not mean to imply that those people aren't concerned about abducted children in general.

[EFerrari]

121. Thank you for the clarification.

And,there are a number of survivors in the group looking into this. So,above and beyond a question about this specific case, you betcha we're concerned about those kids.

[Occulus]

294. You really have to understand, though... the US is living in Backwardworld

right now. Up is down, black is white, war is peace, what should bring them down skates right by, what should have in their view remained hidden for all time gets exposed.

Backwardworld. Or dlrowdrawkcaB.

Take your pick.

[stevedeshazer]

50. DNA

That would answer the doubts I have.

[kenny blankenship]

94. A true believer would take action!

If you're really that anxious for his DNA, I know how you can get it.

[tx_dem41]

112. A true believer in the Constitution...

wouldn't think of traveling down that path.

[kenny blankenship]

125. I have not the faintest idea what you're talking about

and vice versa, I suspect.

[tx_dem41]

129. Lol...I suspect. n/t

[OBrien]

53. High School picture

The high school picture of Guckert posted a month or so ago was soooo abviously him. That pretty much ended any Gosch/Guckert for me. Wanting there to be a connection ain't gonna make it happen. For what it's worth, a close relative of mine lives in WDM and has had business dealings with Noreen. He feels that she is somewhat of a wacko, but of course, it could be argued who wouldn't be if your son went missing.

[EFerrari]

56. And who posted that high school picture?

One of the Wrinklers who went to all the trouble to go out to the site, and reproduce it. By any measure, that's an attempt to find out the truth, not to make reality fit a personal belief!

[OBrien]

60. I agree

but that thread still went on forever after. It should have been convicing enough. No, the tin foilers wouldn't let it go.

[EFerrari]

62. But you mistake a part for the whole.

And also, one piece of evidence for a whole case, I think.

To be tedious, the Gosch/Gannon question was only one among many questions.

And, when you look at the fully array of Gosch, Gukert shots that nonny put together, they raise more questions than they answer, either way.

So, this isn't about tin foil. It's about people recognizing complexity when they see it.

[merh]

63. The Guckert image was not "obviously" him.

It actually depended on the image of "him" that you compared it to and even then there are facial characterists that are different that cannot be explained away by age.

Just as many claim that the images of Guckert when compared to Gannon confirmed Gannon's identity, so too many were/are convinced that the comparision of Gannon to Johnnie and his parents confirm that he is Gosch.

Interesting enough, I have read posts made by others that do not believe the fellow that appeared on CSpan at the National Press Corps meeting was a man of 47 years. They believe he is much younger or closer to 40. It seesm to be a matter of perception and what you want to believe.

[Jesus Saves]

57. Once I came across a copy of 'The Franklin Cover-up'

I didn't seek the book out. I didn't even know it existed until I picked it up. Let me just say this: that book is most unsourced pathetic piece of garbage I've ever had the misfortune of reading. Outlandish hardly begins to describe it.

It's been debunked by good decent people in Kansas. The internet keeps the insanity alive.

A single case got blown way, way out of proportion.

[burn the bush]

100. I don't see how the whole thing got debunked. The one kid won a million

dollar law suit from Larry King for his part in it. How can it be debunked if the civil court found in favor of the victim?

Now, I don't believe that Jimmy-Jeff is Johnny. I do believe that Jimmy Jeff may know of the child porn ring because he has connections to the govt. and to the military. I think he is most likely invited to any secret parties that may happen. If there are child porn parties, I think our guy has been there. He has already passed their secrecy test by apparently having sexual escapades with higher military personel as his sites posted. I think he would be invited.

Another thing I wanted to mention is that Andy had mentioned Capitol Hill Escorts at 3900 Cathedral in DC. This is a co-op building that has a Carl T Cameron listed as the owner or leader of the owners. That phone number listed with Capitol Hill Escorts also showed up for 5151 Wisconsin which is the same building of the Fox Network where a Carl Cameron is employed as a reporter(I think)(maybe in the press room too) The phone number did not go to the Fox room however it went to Edmund J Flynn Associates.

Edmund J Flynn Assoc is the company that created co-ops. They deal with Co-ops. Now the number (I will have to locate it for you if you want it) was also associated with Capitol Hill Appraisors at the 3900 Cathedral address (this is a large coop with over 500 apartments) I believe that Andy said that gay prostitution set ups often use appraissors as a front company for the money. Hard to trace, no product, just service. So we have Capitol City Escorts associated with Capitol City Appraissors and on only one phone number search, it came up with the Edmund J Flynn company at the Fox building.

Now Fox also has a reporter by the name of Daniel J Edmund. I think it was he or Cameron who is in the WH press room. There is a Daniel J Flynn associated with real estate in the area. He may be a son of the of Edmund J Flynn, (his site is similar to theirs)

Now here is the thing that keeps poppin up in my head. Many years ago, a coworker of my husbands was saying really nasty crap. He was a realtor and said that what "they" do is to bring their young victims to these empty houses to abuse them. I'm sure he was mostly talking crap but it keeps popping up in my head that those coops would be a really good place for these prostitutes to use (or for child rings I guess too) If anyone tried to turn on you, they would report an apartment where no one lived. (By the way, my husband actually got into a fist fight with this realtor just over his words. My hubby is not one to take the first swing, but he was really pissed)

Anyway if anyone was wanting to try and get into this child porn ring or prostitution rings, they might want to begin looking at 3900 Cathedral and 5151 wisconsin. Remember, though I find it odd that two of fox reporters have same or similar names as these coop people, that does not mean involvement. I have no way to trace them down to find out if they are actually related. I just find it curious. I think maybe the one in the WH press room is perhaps another Gannonish plant to throw softballs.

Making no accusations it just pops up in my head.

[Jesus Saves]

108. It was a default judgment

The court did not say the whole crazy conspiracy was true, it didn't even touch on it.

The single episode got blown way out of proportion. It's been debunked, completely.

[burn the bush]

131. what do I look up to find debunking?

do ya remember?

[Liberal In Texas]

224. It hasn't been debunked.

I did scads of internet searches when the "wrinkles" we on-going. I didn't see anything that debunks DeCamp's book.

Just because "Jesus Saves" comes in here in yells it was all bunk, doesn't make it so.

I knew 2 people who went to jail (Peter Citron and Tom Harvey) as a result of the investigation into Franklin and in Citron's case, pedophilia. At the time, I had no idea they were involved like they were, but there were some pretty funny things going on in their lives back then that now make a lot of sense.

Also, as far as Gannon = Gosch, it hasn't been proven so nor has it been proven not so. If everyone just forgets about it the story will slip into obscurity and we may never know the truth.

I see no harm in asking questions and finding pieces of the puzzle until a DNA test puts all speculation to rest.

[troubleinwinter]

136. Court judgement

The court's million dollar judgement did not include any notation that it was "crazy conpiracy". Nor did the judgement state that it was "blown way out of proportion". Would you care to provide backup to your assertion that the court's decision has been "debunked, completely", overturning the court's findings?

[Jesus Saves]

151. You misread

The court's decision was not debunked. It was merely a default judgement - people cite this case as proof - IT'S NOT.

To answer the other guy above - I don't remember - do a google search - you'll find stuff - just remember the internet is full of trash - you gotta really dig to find the diamonds.

[Swamp Rat]

65. Have you seen this person?

[hiley]

69. not in person but I sure would like to have his DNA tested !

SwampRat you are to cool .



from merh
"" Jeff Gannon is a fictional person


Jeff Gannon' is approximately 4 years old, that is when "Jeff Gannon" first appeared in society. ""



what is important is finding all the children even the grown ones.
Truth is our friend.

gannon/guckert/gosch reporting watch I.N.N.World Report on FreeSpeechTV or on the web site. They cover PNAC and all !
http://www.innworldreport.net/index.htm


http://www.seo-blog.org/5755_omfg_rageagainstthegop_mac ...

[hiley]

68. So convince me, Will I can not convince you but I offer you

a look into some who still want to expose exactly who gannon / guckert / gosch is and how is any of it wrapped up in Franklin Coverup.

What if you knew a producer of news show not bo dietl show but a producer and staff that tells the truth on their show all the time.
Even about elections, torture All of It. Even PNAC, do you see that on any news shows except DemocracyNow! ?

Every once in awhile Matthews may elude a small tad to the NEO-CONS but I am talking expose' details .....
This producer is very intelligent and I.N.N.World Report is remarkable. I keep posting links and who knows if any bother to learn. They are Progressive and want our Democracy and truth to rule not the fucking farce that is happening and has been happening .
They do interviews with Author and I don't mean 2 minute bullshit in depth, and over several days, human rights everything !

Here is a snip from article Thomas Kiely wrote , do you know of him ? He is Producer of the show I.N.N.World Report.
I.N.N. is based in New York and have been airing for 4 or 5 years, I will have to look in my emails from Thomas to be sure how long.
They are not fly by night they are devoted to the cause protests and all !
Since, I.N.N. has already aired shows about not just gannon in the press room but is he johnny gosch, what did happen to the first milk carton boy ? Why won't America's Most Wanted give Noreen Gosch the tape of her show ? What happened with the Conspiracy of Silence that was to aire on Discovery ? Who took off, who destroyed all the tapes except for one smuggled to John DeCamp ? Who changed all the TVGuides' that had the show in it.
"The Missing Link: John Perkins’s "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man"

by Thomas Kiely

Once in a while an important gap between our knowledge of the tortured extremes of American foreign policy and a thinking person’s darkest suspicion is suddenly filled in. The secret U.S. government documents discovered by author James Bamford uncovering what has become known as “Operation North Woods” are one such example. In his May 2001 book on the National Security Agency “Body of Secrets” Bamford discloses this chilling list of suggestions, developed in 1962 by the Joint Chiefs of Staff, on ways to conduct terror operations against the citizens of the United States which would then be falsely blamed on Cuba and used as a pretext for an invasion.

snip-------

http://www.newtopiamagazine.net/content/issue19/features/hitman.php
At I.N.N.'s web site you may watch video and archives of shows . They are expanding across the nation and soon getting non-profit so they can do more and improve their web site. Below are some of the issues that are being covered my this people.
http://www.innworldreport.net/index.htm
Haiti's TRUTH
Coverage of PNAC, Jan.6, 2005, 2000 election fraud and how bush did not win ! All torture issues !
Anthrax, Thailand, Halliburton, Iraq Explosives,
((((Paul Wellstone Assassination))), American Al-Qaida?October 29, 2004
Tuesday
October 19, 2004
Iraq Round-Up, Bush-Terror Link,
Poll Watchers, Bolivia Protest
The War on Freedom
The Ecological Crisis
9/11 Questions and Answers
The Rise of Empire
Privatized Voting Systems

John DeCamp on the Republican Sex Romp Scandal
Guckert, Gannon and Bush,
Kyrgyzstan Revolution,
Florida Vs. Academic Freedom
US Human RIghts Abuses

http://www.innworldreport.net/index.htm
ANYONE HERE Think PAUL WELLSTONE WAS ASSASSINATED ?

http://www.seo-blog.org/5755_omfg_rageagainstthegop_machine

[Cleita]

71. Until they do the DNA, I'm with you.

Jumping the gun publicly on this could have you finishing the same crow meal that Dan Rather ate. It's looking like it's being cooked in the same oven.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EFerrari]

75. If I'm not mistaken, that's a personal attack on Andy.

Aside from the fact that this is not "all the evidence" as you claim, I wonder why you feel the need to do that here, rather than take it up with Andy in private, where it belongs?

[Must_B_Free]

86. Here are my two factual statements concerning Andy

"This type of grandstanding was one ot the things cited by BBV when they kicked Andy out, specifically when they broke in to the meeting and caused a stir, although it seems to me Bev and the other lady did the same thing as Andy"

"The real question in my mind is, why did Andy Stephenson choose to do this, in light of the fact that he has seen all of these photos and he knows Jeff Gannon is not John Gosch."

Can you explain how this constitutes a personal attack? I see it as a legitimate question, considering that events that have transpired over the last few months.

[merh]

105. Why not post the comparisions with young Gosch and his

family? If you are going to draw your conclusions based on images, then be fair and post the other comparisons so that others can see them too. Also, how do you explain the birthmark and the scar?

Have you ever heard it said that we all have look alikes?

[EFerrari]

286. This constitutes a public personal attack because

"grandstanding" is a pejorative term and because you accuse Andy of willfully ignoring clear evidence when you have 1) no idea what Andy thinks and 2) there is no clear evidence.

These questions may be legitimate but they belong between you and Andy, not between you and 6,000 other people while Andy is at a voting rights conference.

[BigTentDemocrat]

304. I think the attack on Andy might be harsh too

It's one thing to criticize the absurd Gannon-Gosch theory, which was fully debunked weeks ago by SusanG and others, but it's another thing to say bad things about Andy just because "he appears" to be propagating the theory and "ignoring clear evidence."

The guy is probably a hero to many people here. His fast rise to fame, from being a telemarketer and Subway owner, to hooking up with Bev and then running for Secretary of State while working for her, gives hope to people who might otherwise be stuck in a rut.

[hiley]

78. Must_B_Free This ended it all a long time ago..

Why do you come to this thread ? Look at the question Will asked in original post .

No reason to pick at Andy !
THIS here is not nessecary...
((This type of grandstanding was one ot the things cited by BBV when they kicked Andy out, specifically when they broke in to the meeting and caused a stir, although it seems to me bev and the other lady did the same thing as Andy. ))






what is important is finding all the children even the grown ones.
Truth is our friend.

gannon/guckert/gosch reporting watch I.N.N.World Report on FreeSpeechTV or on the web site. They cover PNAC and all !
http://www.innworldreport.net/index.htm


http://www.seo-blog.org/5755_omfg_rageagainstthegop_mac ...

[kenny blankenship]

85. Thanks

I'm afraid that you are trying to convince people who cannot be rationally convinced of anything. The argument you're countering is not a collection of factual circumstances nor is it a logical arrangement of valid deductions. It is a symptom.

It's embarrassing for this whacked CT crap to posted over and over and over on a site associated with the Democrats.

It's CRIPPLING for the left to be associated with this style of paranoid delusion, it makes it so easy for the right to drive the moderate middle away from us. And half the damage that is done to us this way, we are doing to ourselves, by refusing to confront the classic symptoms of those who persist in rolling attacks on any liberal/left site on the internet with these sick fantasies.

[EFerrari]

88. Ad hominem attacks -- that's progressive!

It's interesting that rather than argument, you instead pathologize folks who have the facts in hand.

What's that about?

[Lone Pawn]

101. His post was no more ad hominem than yours.

He said, "You're delusional. You have no facts."
You said, "We have all the facts," which immediately implies his statement.

BTW, you have no 'facts.' You have spurious, unproven connections. It's no different and no more proven than the Clinton Murders conspiracy, the thousands of Kennedy conspiracies, and the MIHOP conspiracy.

[EFerrari]

123. In fact, to abuse the word, I didn't say we have ALL the facts.

If nothing else, that's one thing I've tried to get across in this thread. We have SOME facts and are looking for more.

And please name one spurious unproven connection that I've made? I don't think we're reading the same thread.

[Lone Pawn]

193. You did say you had all the facts...

Look. There's a difference between saying "We have facts" and "We have the facts." Putting the article 'the' means that you have THE set of factual evidence relevant. Not A set of factual evidence.

[EFerrari]

220. You're right, I misspoke. And if you read my posts on this thread

you will note that over and over I have emphasized, that we don't have ALL the facts. No one does, to my knowledge.

So when someone claims to give you ALL the evidence, I have to speak up.

The only thing that will clear this specific case is DNA.

In any case, if I sounded as if I felt that I had conclusive facts in hand, I misspoke. Period.

[H2O Man]

145. You misquote. Very unfair.

If it was by accident, you should correct it, with an admission that you own the error.

If you did it on purpose, you should reconsider what tactics you are willing to use.

[Must_B_Free]

95. For me, it's not even a problem that its embarassing

I am OK with having "whacked out CT crap" on a blog or message board. if that's what you want to call it. TO me I see it as wonderings. I don't even make statements as intentional statements of fact. To me it's all supposition. No one every said that blogs were fact machines.

What concerned me was the couching of the topic of blog discussion on Bo Dietl. What I heard specifically were "Bloggers Play Detective" and "You can't believe anything you read on the internet". So I see this as, either knowingly or unknowingly, contributing to a calculated smear on any information not made "official" by main stream media channels.

To me, it looks like the corporatists have calculated a defensive smear. Consider that this is being drudged up suddenly after it had disappeared for several weeks.

I am curious as to how we ended up contributing to a smear that ultimatley undermines us all, especially when, in my recollection, the high school photos pretty much closed the case on whether this is Gosch.

In my recollection, the suppositions on how Gannon could possibly be Gosch, after the high school photos emerged, ranged from theories involving aliens to theories involving cloning. If someone wants to challenge the photos and come up with a new idea of how Gannon could be Gosch - I am open to hearing it.

Clearly Andy still thinks that Gannon could be Gosh and I am curious to hear how he has rationalized the Conneaut Lake yearbook photos, to the extent that he was willing to go on national TV and push the Gosch angle.

I can only guess that it is based on his friendship with Noreen Gosch. And perhaps things he has discussed with her that we haven't heard, but, he can explain his position himself, if he feels like it.

[hiley]

107. It is not just on Bo Dietl It is being looked at by PROGRESSIVE NEWS

People read the post and look at the news show that is investigating this..........

a look into some who still want to expose exactly who gannon / guckert / gosch is and how is any of it wrapped up in Franklin Coverup.

What if you knew a producer of news show not bo dietl show but a producer and staff that tells the truth on their show all the time.
Even about elections, torture All of It. Even PNAC, do you see that on any news shows except DemocracyNow! ?

Every once in awhile Matthews may elude a small tad to the NEO-CONS but I am talking expose' details .....
This producer is very intelligent and I.N.N.World Report is remarkable. I keep posting links and who knows if any bother to learn. They are Progressive and want our Democracy and truth to rule not the fucking farce that is happening and has been happening .
They do interviews with Author and I don't mean 2 minute bullshit in depth, and over several days, human rights everything !

Here is a snip from article Thomas Kiely wrote , do you know of him ? He is Producer of the show I.N.N.World Report.
I.N.N. is based in New York and have been airing for 4 or 5 years, I will have to look in my emails from Thomas to be sure how long.
They are not fly by night they are devoted to the cause protests and all !
Since, I.N.N. has already aired shows about not just gannon in the press room but is he johnny gosch, what did happen to the first milk carton boy ? Why won't America's Most Wanted give Noreen Gosch the tape of her show ? What happened with the Conspiracy of Silence that was to aire on Discovery ? Who took off, who destroyed all the tapes except for one smuggled to John DeCamp ? Who changed all the TVGuides' that had the show in it.
"The Missing Link: John Perkins’s "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man"

by Thomas Kiely

Once in a while an important gap between our knowledge of the tortured extremes of American foreign policy and a thinking person’s darkest suspicion is suddenly filled in. The secret U.S. government documents discovered by author James Bamford uncovering what has become known as “Operation North Woods” are one such example. In his May 2001 book on the National Security Agency “Body of Secrets” Bamford discloses this chilling list of suggestions, developed in 1962 by the Joint Chiefs of Staff, on ways to conduct terror operations against the citizens of the United States which would then be falsely blamed on Cuba and used as a pretext for an invasion.

snip-------

http://www.newtopiamagazine.net/content/issue19/feature...
At I.N.N.'s web site you may watch video and archives of shows . They are expanding across the nation and soon getting non-profit so they can do more and improve their web site. Below are some of the issues that are being covered my this people.
http://www.innworldreport.net/index.htm
Haiti's TRUTH
Coverage of PNAC, Jan.6, 2005, 2000 election fraud and how bush did not win ! All torture issues !
Anthrax, Thailand, Halliburton, Iraq Explosives,
((((Paul Wellstone Assassination))), American Al-Qaida?October 29, 2004
Tuesday
October 19, 2004
Iraq Round-Up, Bush-Terror Link,
Poll Watchers, Bolivia Protest
The War on Freedom
The Ecological Crisis
9/11 Questions and Answers
The Rise of Empire
Privatized Voting Systems

John DeCamp on the Republican Sex Romp Scandal
Guckert, Gannon and Bush,
Kyrgyzstan Revolution,
Florida Vs. Academic Freedom
US Human RIghts Abuses

http://www.innworldreport.net/index.htm
ANYONE HERE Think PAUL WELLSTONE WAS ASSASSINATED ?

http://www.seo-blog.org/5755_omfg_rageagainstthegop_mac...

[mzmolly]

234. This is excellent info, but I suggest you edit out the part where you

call out another DU-er because your information will be deleted otherwise.

Thanks for posting the pics, I hope you'll edit this because I think it should stand.

[BigTentDemocrat]

292. Thank you for posting those photos, Must B Free

Those photos, and the fine research by SusanG and others at Kos and Propagannon, put an end to the absurd Gannon/Gosch connections weeks ago, but I have to admit, it was an interesting theory for awhile. I'm surprised that some people here still insist it has merit, and won't change their minds without DNA evidence, even though there's absolutely no evidence to support their claims.

I wonder if Stew Webb and Barbara Hartwell have anything to do with this?

[EFerrari]

77. One thing that sort of doesn't compute

Last week, there were two articles in Des Moines papers on this issue. One was a hit piece on the internets; the other was well-sourced and pretty balanced. Then there was that MSNBC segment yesterday.

Why is Gannon/whoever not working that on his blog? He even works Doonsbury, for pete's sake.

But on this, nada.

[KoKo]

156. But.......Is Guckert just a "RED HERRING?"

That's what I wonder. A "side issue" to get us into a tizzy. A gay male who was part of an "escort service" for awhile (we Dems have no problems with gay males) and planted himself into the WH Press with the guidance of the RW Repugs...who promised him "payoff" and got found out?

In fact maybe he just had alot of odd jobs and living his life as a gay he tried to make money off it? Maybe he was just and entrepreneur who saw another opportunity when the RW approached him to "make a splash" and he thinks he can take out DU and the Left Wing Blogs with his little
"infiltration of the MSM WHORE FEST that asks Scotty those lame questions?

What if Guckert is another way to undermine the Right with what we are very vulnerable on...issuewise? :shrug: (Damned my shoulders are now just doing shrugs all the time and I'm getting muscle spasms) :-(

[EFerrari]

298. It's possible, sure. But, I don't think the RW is controlling Mr. JDG

Or else his website would be "The Good News of Freedom and Democracy" and not a frontpage jeffgannon.com.

Somefin' sort of out of control going on here. (hands you Tiger Balm)

[theboss]

89. Well, he's at least 12 years too old

I also find it rather incredible that some rich Republican would kidnap and sexually abuse a boy for God knows how many years and then decide to hide him...in the press pool...at the White House.

If I was the kind of person who would kidnap a child, sexually abuse him, sell him to my friends, and make snuff films with him (with Hunter S. Thompson, I might add), once the lad hit 18, his body would be inside the cornerstone of a construction project while his head and hands would have been put in a bag with fifty pound weight and flung into the Gulf of Mexico.

[kenny blankenship]

93. Obviously YOU'VE never heard of time travel.

Once you understand that the source of power for the Bush Masonic Templars Conspiracy Empire is derived from alien technology, with the faster than light supra-relativity time bending that intergalactic space travel implies, these kinds of intuitive leaps will come much easier to you.

[EFerrari]

97. If either of you missed the segment yesterday, dzika posted

the video.

The NYPD investigator who was on had something to say about how these rings operate. And it doesn't seem to involve aliens or time travel -- unless I'm missing the bigger picture.

Again, it's sort of amazing how easy it seem to be to trivialize what happened to those kids.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3450057&mesg_id=3450057

[Spider Jerusalem]

102. The only problem is...

that this has NOTHING to do with these kids, except peripherally; trying to tie Johnny Gosch to Gannon/Guckert as part of a bizarre and outlandish conspiracy involving snuff films, gonzo journalists, suspicious suicides, and a child prostitution ring run by Washington insiders is quite frankly only going to serve to discredit any legitimate story on the subject.

[EFerrari]

116. Hmmm. That seems inside out to me.

Maybe you and I disagree on what the periphery is.

There was a series of abductions, one involving Johnny Gosch, that was tied to political figures. We didn't cook that up, unfortunately.

We were simply asking some questions: How did JDG get into the White House at all? Who is he? And then someone noticed the resemblance to Gosch. And then someone contacted Noreen and simply asked the question.

That led to other, peripheral investigations -- mainly into the way in which children went missing, how it is in some cases systematized. And what those kids are likely to look like should they survive.

So, while you all keep saying, "we don't believe your claims", we seem to keep saying, "but, we've made no claim, but are asking some questions." Andy certainly made no claims yesterday.

Frustrating for both sides of this discussion, I'm sure.

/typing from hell.

[Spider Jerusalem]

120. Asking stupid questions that will ultimately lead nowhere is unproductive.

This entire thing is built on coincidence and happenstance, not on anything solid or substantiative. Gannon/Guckert was apparently a male whore...who has the same initials as this missing kid from Iowa. Unfortunately, he's ALSO too old by more than a decade, from another part of the country, and by all appearances starting whoring himself out of his own volition, not because he was kidnapped at an early age and forced into it.

Hutner S. Thompson commits suicide near the same time the Gannon/Guckert (non)"story" is playing out, and people with seriously overactive imaginations see a connection where there is none...the man was old, sick, tired and ready to leave, not capping himself out of fear of the law.

Also, this serems to have led to the conflation of two TOTALLY UNRELATED ISSUES: Gannon/Guckert has no ties or links to child priostitution of kidnapping, so continuing to ask questions that follow a line suggesting otherwise, against the weight of already available evidence, is essentially tilting at windmills.

[EFerrari]

122. Stupid question.

Once one of my students asked me, "Where did King Lear's castle go? It was right there in the first scene? Why is he now homeless?"

A really stupid, brilliant question. lol

The edifice you describe as being "built on coincidence and happenstance" does not in fact exist. Have you read the Wrinkles? Read the pointblank article? Talked to Noreen Gosch? Watch the video David put up? Read this thread?

You throw words like "stupid" around really comfortably.

/more typing from hell

[Spider Jerusalem]

139. I'm familiar with the salient facts...

and none of them support this sort of baseless speculation. I read all of the threads and articles you mention, and NOT ONE OF THEM has anything more than wild attempts to link coincidences to one another.

[EFerrari]

141. With all due respect, you didn't answer my question.

I've no problem with you being opposed to something you think I said. Certainly your privilege.

If you were opposed to something I actually said, I'd like to know what that was, so I could look at it and see if you might be right.

Going to feed the farm,
Beth

[Spider Jerusalem]

144. You asked several questions. My response speaks to most of them.

Which one is it I didn't answer?

And my opposition is to the conflation of unrelated issues through coincidence and shoddy "logic".

[EFerrari]

146. Spider, if I don't feed my family, lol, I'm gonna get myself fired.

What I asked, without sarcasm, is, please point out an instance of shoddy logic. I come from a school where we take those things pretty seriously.

And, I won't read it for a coupla hours. Meatloaf, you know.

Beth

[Spider Jerusalem]

157. Let's see:

I count three or four fallacious lines of thought in the connection of Gannon to Gosch, just for starters. False analogy (line of reasoning from Gannon/Guckert's male escort sideline to child prostitution rings); post hoc (Hunter S Thompson suicide seen as related to Gannon/Guckert and thus to Johnny Gosch through false linkage in point 1); non sequitur (Guckert has been shown to be in his late 40's; Gosch, were he alive, would be over a decade younger, yet this very salient fact is ignored in order to create yet another false link)...shall I go on?

[EFerrari]

163. Good. I never claimed any of those things. Neither did the

Wrinkle threads.

Go on. Be my guest. But, do you really think this is useful?

We tossed around a lot of ideas. That's a ways from agreeing, approving or forwarding them.

[Spider Jerusalem]

170. I was speaking to shoddy logic...

in the formation of the line of enquiry which inspired to ORIGINAL post in this thread. Not to whatever you happen to think. You asked for examples, which I provided...not speaking to you specifically, but to problems which tend to undermine the entire premise on which the question is founded.

[EFerrari]

183. Okay, f3ck the meatloaf. Lemme see if I read you aright.

I am in complete agreement with you that the original post assumed a position that none of us core Wrinklers ever assumed.

If you want to bore yourself by going over the Wrinkle threads, you'll find people asking questions, over and over. Checking and rechecking and still not being satisfied.

So, in all honesty, to be charged with all kinds of failures of responsibility, logic, whatever, is a little tough, given how careful we tried to be.

If careless claims had been made among conspirators, there would have been one 25-post thread. But, that didn't happen.

So, this reaction to the Wrinkles is important, imo. It tells us something about how we handle our thinking through anything. And what a huge reaction is elicited when a conversation is not neatly packaged and ribboned nearly immediately.

fwiw,
Beth


" . . .brave new word!"
"'Tis new to thee." -- Tempest.

[Lone Pawn]

98. Gannongate is just as ridiculous as MIHOP, IMO.

[burn the bush]

104. yeah, well the more I read, the more I am believing MIHOP

I keep trying not to, but the more I find out, the more it looks like the bastards really could have been in on it.

[Lone Pawn]

110. Read these few words then:

If they were willing to engineer a massive conspiracy in 2001 to gain world backing to start a war against Iraq, why weren't they willing to plant a few barrels of enriched uranium in 2003 to justify it and gain world backing for a second one?

Seriously.

Or, if they caused 9/11 for political gain, why did they not fake WMDs and fake an Osama capture for political gain?

Until someone posts a convincing answer, MIHOP is just finding patterns in smoke.

[burn the bush]

130. actually the story is that planting wmd was the plan but

that catastrofic success of getting into Bahgdad too soon blew the plan for them. There are many articles on it. Try looking up wmd plant. I think that should produce the article on google.
also there is a story of the twin towers being in very bad repair and needing to come down, but because of their height, it would cost billions to do.

then there is the lady I talked to in NYC who said she heard the small explosions going off that brought down wtc7. It was professionally demolished. It fell in its own footprints. That building could have burnt until the end of time and would not have fallen in its own footprints. Those explosives were pre set. It takes weeks to properly set a building to implode.

there are numerous reports of particular people being warned not to go to work that day.

I'm not sure what happened at the pentagon but their were no wings inside or outside of the pentagon. The only piece large enough to really even identify supposedly fell throught the roof of a Cindly Elgas who had the only other overly done story like Bobby Eberle (Gannons Talon boss and main witness to the pentagon crash) The only other Elgas I can find in DC or Pringfield VA (where penhny lives) is a James A Elgas an evaluator for the GAO dealing with security. I wonder is he is her husband? They both live in Springfield.

There is the fact that shrub said that he watched the first plane hit on tv. He said this twice, but the only footage of that first plane hitting was still in NYC. He could not have watched the first plane hit unless someone was sending it to him in his lime. The only way they could have done that is if they knew is was going to happen and was there ready to photograph it for him.

there is the fact that shrub has said prior to the war that he wanted to have a war. He wanted Saddam.

I have seen reports that say no human could have made one of the turns that one of the planes made. Yes there were devices that could remotely control this type of plane as early as the 80's. The report said that the steering device could not have done that because like when you pull up on the column there is resistance. The amount of resistance would be dependant on the turn or pull being attempted. They said that the wheel would have been like lifting lead. That it could not be done.

there are so many many things that don't fit. I can't name them all. I'm sure not all are true, but there are just too many things to ignore. Plus, they have a plan book that describes "it would take a pearl harbour type event for americans to allow them to go to war"

then we got one.

and I think we will get one again. I'm predicting very soon and it will not be by an outside source. It will be done to boost shrubs ratings and scare sheeple back into compliance. It will contain chemicals. That will really scare us. It might be April 23.

it's the only way the sheeple will allow a draft. We can't take the rest of the ME if we don't have a draft. Can't take Iran, Syria, who the hell knows where else he's planning war.

[Lone Pawn]

159. I've seen the "catastrophic success" article, and it's shit.

There is no reason--NO REASON--why the CIA still couldn't plant behind the soldiers' backs and pay off a local to "tip off" searchers. Meanwhile everything else is "one person said," "one engineer disagrees," and entirely unconvincing things like that.

[Occulus]

297. one thing rankles, though

this:

"then there is the lady I talked to in NYC who said she heard the small explosions going off that brought down wtc7. It was professionally demolished. It fell in its own footprints. That building could have burnt until the end of time and would not have fallen in its own footprints. Those explosives were pre set. It takes weeks to properly set a building to implode."

I've watched the video of WTC falling any number of times, and each time it looks like every single other professional demolition I've ever seen before or since- including the demolition seen in the intro to "NYPD Blue", as it happens.

WTC7 did not simply fall, it was put down like a strong witness to a mob crime. I'd dearly love to know what information was present in that building, because it was probably vital to something or other that Somebody was being or about to be under investigation for.

WTC7 was demolished in a very professional manner, but that's the only way what I saw on video could possibly have happened. Its center even appeared to drop first, again consistent with other professional demolitions. I believe I remember seeing what looked like smoke coming from some of the windows as it fell, which I suppose was primer cord or something similar.

Seems like the way WTC7 fell keeps popping up like a clipped coin, doesn't it? Spooky, at a distance.....

edit: added a 7 where there wasn't one (gasp!)

[Minstrel Boy]

152. Planning for 9/11 predated the Bush Administration.

9/11 wasn't a Bush op; it was a National Security op, abetted by elements of the Bush Administration.

[Lone Pawn]

161. So then why were WMD not found?

Say it was PNAC. PNAC also has interest in finding WMD in Iraq--if they justify Iraq by finding WMD, then it would give them capital to say that we ought then invade Iran for WMD.

[Minstrel Boy]

207. Have they needed finding?

Bush can joke about it. "Nope, no weapons of mass destruction here!" What are the consequences of their absence?

They didn't need to find WMD. But they did need 9/11.

[Project_Willow]

111. And most Germans didn't believe

the camps were real either.

Lots of kids have died in the rings/experiment programs. Many survived however. But the perps were partially right, they said "No one will ever believe you". Some believe, many do not, to their own detriment.

[Lone Pawn]

115. Also, most Americans didn't believe that

Clinton left a trail of murders in his wake. And most Britons didn't believe that Churchill was actually a Nazi sympathizer. And most people don't believe that the Illuminate controls the entire world, and most people don't believe that the Jews own the world, and most people don't believe...

[Project_Willow]

118. OK then, Lone Pawn, what do you suggest

for people who've witnessed horrible atrocities, that need to be exposed?
What if we cannot get our hands on the smoking gun video tape for all the doubters?
What if the truth sounds incredible on its surface, and yet it is imperative for the public to know?
Really, I'd like to hear some suggestions.

To be clear, I am referring to ongoing humans rights abuses both tax-funded and private involving chidlren, not the theories you listed.

[Lone Pawn]

191. You're presupposing the truth of these abuses.

If you have actual proof, the media will be all over this. If you don't, they won't. I'm serious. The media isn't conservative or liberal, it's lazy as fuck and won't do any work. But everyone loves children. Good for ratings.

[Project_Willow]

198. I know it's true

I am a witness. I don't have proof, that's what I'm saying.
There is no smoking gun proof yet, just lots of victim/witness testimony. And no, the media would not be all over it, as it implicates the government, and people in positions of power and sounds "incredible" on its surface.

[Lone Pawn]

201. The media don't like to implicate the government? News to me.

The media *love* to implicate the government. But in order to do so, they need hard proof. Otherwise they've just made some very, very dangerous enemies, and will likely lose their licenses. Keep in mind, if you don't have waterproof, 100% certain, no-chance-in-hell-you're-wrong, cannot-possibly-construct-a-defense proof, then you'll be defending yourself against a libel/slander charge immediately.

And if you don't have smoking gun, you might as well be lying. And since I haven't seen any smoking gun, it's no more believable than any other conspiracy theory.

[Project_Willow]

205. that's illogical

as most people, even government types, don't leave smoking gun evidence lying about. Your position pretty much excludes ever getting to the bottom of any type of organized and/or covert criminal activity.

About being open to slander, no victim/witness who has published about these atricities has been successfully sued as far as I know.

[H2O Man]

258. "...and will likely lose their licenses."

Examples?

[Occulus]

299. That's IT!!!

Oh, you NAILED it! Good for you!

"Keep in mind, if you don't have waterproof, 100% certain, no-chance-in-hell-you're-wrong, cannot-possibly-construct-a-defense proof,"

The problem is, for some reason I haven't figured out yet, this particular administration has an excuse and an answer for everything. Even when proven property damages are shown to the public (like when Bush* met the Queen, I believe it was), it shows up in the paper... once. Exactly ONE time, and then disappears *poof* like magic.

Whatever happened to that damage from his little entourage? Hell, what about the security expenditures (waaaay above and beyond what was expected from Presidents past), the unpaid bills, etc.... this guy owes some money!

But do we hear about it? Yes. Once. So they can say they reported on it. :grr:

edit: "Bush Met the Queen".... eew.... could be a really bad play....

[Catherine Vincent]

289. Which category are you in?

"Also, most Americans didn't believe that Clinton left a trail of murders in his wake."

[KoKo]

181. Well...that's just not true...Totally different ! I'm surprised you don't

see the difference. :shrug:

[KoKo]

209. No! MIHOP/LIHOP have a big track record....NOT the same...don't even

try to equate them...Different happening...different time...different motives.

[KaliTracy]

99. from the beginning I've felt the extra baggage surrounding Gannon (the

websites, et al) were diversion tactics (whether they were true or not) to take people away from the fact that someone without credentials got into a briefing area and had access to the administration on *multiple* occasions.

This other stuff.... well it's hard to swallow in one sitting, (or several sittings) and truly I have trouble pulling it all together, even after reading the article that merh says keeps getting deleted this week (I guess I caught the link before it got deleted), and seeing the video yesterday.

That said, I think it is interesting that there isn't much past (people coming out of the woodwork) to stand up (or denounce) Guckart/Gannon (that I've head about -- but I'm not actively seeking information either).

I think it's interesting that there are a lot of coincidences surrounding this issue (that go beyond initials and using names that were part of Gosch's past). Including the fact that he seems to be taunting the media in various ways.

Why did the fact that this person who effectively infiltrated the White House briefing sessions get barely a nod in MSM --when if it had been a left-leaning writer the administration wouldn't have let the media forget it -- they would have insisted it get air time by bringing it up time after time. I heard an interview with Gannon immediately after the story broke, and his reason from going to Gannon from Guckart because it was easier to say and remember was so lame. It's not like his name was Kock (pronounced Cook) or Fuch (pronounced Fooch).

Something about all of this reeks -- but I'm not convinced that it goes back 20 years... it could - and if more information surfaces for that then I'd be willing to consider it. But for me, the issue is a fake reporter who has accessibility to areas that credentialed and experienced reporters haven't been given access to even after more than one request. Given the information about the fake news reports that the administration condoned and used tax payers money for, I think our efforts need to be in breaking the Covert Propaganda that this administration has been propagating and waking people up to the fact that this administration is doing everything in their power to lie to them.

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0401-31.htm

[H2O Man]

127. Legend defined.

"In the field of intelligence, a legend is an operational plan for a cover, or a cover itself, depending on the mission."
-- James Jesus Angleton, former chief of counterintelligence, CIA


"A legend is a false biography."
-- Yuri Ivanovich Nosenko, former KGB officer

[BamaBecky]

202. Read the Franklin Cover up & Why Johnny can't come home.....I imagine

it goes back lots further than just 20 years.......

[KoKo]

208. Yeah...KaliTracy, not wanting to co-opt Will's thread...I'm kind of with

you on this. :shrug:

[bobthedrummer]

106. So you have no doubts about the human trafficking but this is too far out

to consider-is that near where you're at, Will?

[Minstrel Boy]

143. Here's what makes me most go "hmmm":

The coincident arrest of Paul Bishop on paedophile charges. Noreen Gosch had named Bishop in her book years before as a CIA operative who aided her after her son's disappearance. He insinuated himself in her life for months after Johnny's abduction, and now wonders whether he was playing a double game all along, or was set up to take him out of the picture now.

The coincident re-arrest of Rusty Nelson, the photographer who worked for Lawrence King at his blackmailing sex parties 20 years ago and claims to have secreted away incriminating photos of political figures.

Before Gannon appeared, Noreen Gosch had been told by Paul Bonacci, who claimed to have contact with her son, that Johnny had changed his appearance and shaved his head.

Shared birthmarks on the faces, and a scar on Gannon's chest where Johnny had another birthmark.

Gannon's refusal to deny the story.


And I'll tell you, I'm not persuaded myself that Gannon is Gosch. But I am persuaded that there's value in pursuing this, not least because it raises awareness of covert, state-sanctioned child abuse. Which is also incredible, though very real.

[BamaBecky]

166. Well said!...n/t

[KoKo]

188. I didn't know that Noreen Gosch had a book....could you give more info?

My impression was that she was tracked down and asked if Jimmy/Jeff could possibly be her son.

Thanks if you can give some more links that puts this in context for those of us who didn't get through all the Guckert/Gosch threads.. Some of us are still on "dial-up," and can only get through about a hundred posts..and that's with difficulty. :shrug: Hanging head in shame about the "dial-up." But, Links...are good for us.

[Minstrel Boy]

196. "Why Johnny Can't Come Home"

Info about the book here, and a sample chapter:

http://www.johnnygosch.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=detail&id=8377&product=2&pageid=28

Some relevant posts on my blog:

Stirring the White House Honey Pot

Crazy Yes. But Crazy Enough to be True?

The Great Satan

The Going Got Weird

Jeff Gannon's Inner Child?

Noreen Gosch: "If this is it, we're in the final days."

[KoKo]

233. Thanks...then she has a definite interest in this before this latest

incident with Guckert. It makes her more legit in my eyes. I wasn't impressed with her on MSNBC last night but this fills in a piece I needed. It connects why Andy and others contacted her.

I've read much of the threads on this but "dial up" means I have to kick out after about the first 125 or it's very slow..so I might have missed some on the many threads here like Noreen's book...but I still stand behind all my posts on this thread about my view of it.

I don't think Will should go posting this on "Truth Out," but it deserves a further look just to keep the Jimmy/Jeff story from fading or him gaining further rewards from the Bushies like his friend Lauck (former Jimmy/Jeff SD Reporter friend) now getting a a mega buck job for Thune in DC, who with Jimmy/Jeff's help brought down Tom Daschle in South Dakota. If we have to become the "National Equirer" to keep attention on Guckert then so be it. But...we need to keep it in the tabloids right now. Just my 2cents..

[troubleinwinter]

167. "So convince me"

Convince you of what? Convince you that some people are researching, examining and seeking to answer questions regarding the "huge, whistling gaps in the story"? Tossing around ideas? Postulating, theorizing, examining?

Why would you demand that anyone "convince" you of something that no one has claimed as proven? It is an idea, a question. Some are intrigued and for the time being, feel it is a strong possibility. Most do not.

Others here have found the exploration of ideas and seeking of information to be an opportunity to ridicule fellow DUers as "nutcases", "idiotic", "nutjobs", "demented", "running amok", "spreading shit", "aberrant behavior", "crazy", "deranged" and "mentally ill".

If I had tried to "convince" you of life on Mars 20 years ago, you'd have likely called me nuts. There was no evidence to prove such a "theory". Today there are convincing scientific indications of just that.

Because of these threads, I have learned a great deal about some of the history of this country. I have learned much about some repugnant aspects of human nature in the victimization of children. I have learned about the dedication and devotion of some DUers to the protection of children. I have also learned that there are some DUers who would ridicule, insult and call other DUers names, for simply trying to find the truth.

[mzmolly]

171. Excellent post!

:applause: I agree with EVERY word.

[Project_Willow]

182. nice post

As a newcomer/outsider (and I probably shouldn't be here as the subject hits too close to home for me to be partial), I just wanted to say you all have done such an excellent job in persuing the issues related to this case, and continue to do such a great job holding up under the attacks and questioning.

[mzmolly]

184. Welcome to DU!

I am so sorry that this story hits close to home for you.

[Project_Willow]

186. thank you! nt/

[seemslikeadream]

175. Bush Ambassador to Italy Mel Sembler - Founder of STRAIGHTS

Why would bush appoint this man ambassador to anything?



http://thestraights.com/news/#gt-rape

[BamaBecky]

200. That's an excellent point! Just Excellent! n/t

[mzmolly]

176. There's more to the story than whether or not Gannon = Gosch.

Even if you were to interview Ms. Gosch about her sons disappearance you'd have a story worth telling. Children are sold into sexual slavery in this country every year, and supposedly Johnny Gosch is one of these children. Sadly, this "story" is largely ignored by major media. After all, it's too frickin awful for anyone to talk about, so we simply don't. And, if we don't have a dialog in this country and elsewhere, what incentive is there to really effect change?

"Global crimes need a local response. Those who are sexual predators have no boundaries and everyone must do all they can to combat the victimization of the most vulnerable in society, our children. Police need the information to act. Creating awareness of the issues and exposing those who exploit children will go a long way to deterring these international criminals." ~ Staff Inspector Gary Ellis, Unit Commander of the Toronto Police Sex Crimes Unit.

So you see, YOU can help create awareness regardless of whether or not Gannon = Gosch. This is the major reason I think this discussion should be had - and the story told.

I googled child sex slavery, here are links with various information.

http://www.google.com.ar/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=RNWE,RNWE:2004-45,RNWE:en&q=child+sex+slavery

Also, read the links here, pretty disturbing stuff:

http://gvnet.com/humantrafficking/USA.htm

More on human trafficking.

http://www.google.com.ar/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=RNWE,RNWE:2004-45,RNWE:en&q=human+trafficking

I for one am glad this story is still alive. And, if Gannon is not Gosch, and he's likely not, I'm glad he's aiding in the "discussion" no matter.

[KoKo]

192. Agree, MzMolly.....but to link the two might be what "THEY" want us to do,

or it's a "Red Herring?"

I wish the "Franklin Group" story could stand on it's own. And, "Operation Mockingbird" and the "Brotherhood," etc.

But, the fact is that it's too :tinfoilhat: for most Americans to deal with. They don't want to believe their Government could be SO CORRUPT that the would do these evil programs.

So...if you take that out..then you end up with "Jimmy/Jeff" being a simple gay who was a "stud" enough he could get an "escort service going" and he ends up after trashing Dashle enough with his friend Lauck that he is on the "FOUR STAR REPUB LIST" and he then gets in trouble because he and "Scotty" have a trist and his "cover" is blown.

So "Jimmy/Jeff" is out there...but the Repug Operatives move in and give him MEGA BUCKS to support his Rehab through his new Website...and he manages to get great appearances in the "New Media" from the National Press Club" and other "Media Whores" AND ...get's his own WEBSITE...which is fully funded just to keep quiet...but keep his "story" going.

NOW....given that..."Jimmy/Jeff" is also knowing he's covered by his "high up in the BFEE CHAIN of COMMAND" so he can do whatever he wants and no one will touch him. Various Newspapers in his Hometown have been bought out/paid off so that the "Daily Kos Underground Researchers" can't touch him. "Google" had been "shut down" and all avenues of research on "Guckert" are now closed off.

This guy is sitting on top of it all .....knowing folks can't get after him...and wondering where we will go with this.

It's good in one way that Andy is pushing the Frankling Kids to keep this going...What If?

But, OTOH..what if it's all a sham? :shrug:

[mzmolly]

197. Well, I think sham or not, as H2O pointed out, we need to find out about

Gannon/Guckert and his past regardless.

And as I and others have said, we KNOW these sex rings exist, and people might start asking "why" our government does not do "more" if we bring the issue into discussion.

I think you and others raise very interesting points, BUT we can discuss this without taking sides. We can say "some people believe X" and let the reader draw their own conclusions.

Also, we can point to the fact that "The Franklin Coverup" was written by a Republican, so any tinfoil hat is obviously shared by those on the so called "looney right." ;)

[KoKo]

221. Yes....I go with that.....either/or...Guckert needs to be exposed one way

or the other. If we need to dig dirt for scandal...so be it. But, should Pitt post doings about it on "TruthOut?" No...IMHO....and that's what he asked...but it's so easy to get carried away in this story.
;-)'s...I understand what you say...and I did post my questions way up in this post that maybe we should go at it full force even if it's kind of Tabloid/National Enquirer" sort of stuff.

But keep it to Tabloids for Gosch? I don't think, personally that Guckert is Gosch...but it's a good enough read that it will give the story legs. Maybe force "Jimmy/Jeff" to put up or shut up about DNA testing to prove it one way or the other? :shrug:

[merh]

206. I cannot understand this line of inquiry and I hope you can

help me reach some type of understanding.

Why would Rove want us to
(1) further investigate Gannon's connection to the WH?
(2) further investigate or even open the can of worms that is the child sex ring scandal that has been tied to the BFEE?

What is the sham? We know that there are are survivors of the scandals that are too afraid to come forward. We know that Gannon was a "male escort" that had access to the White House.

Why would "they" want us to keep this alive? They have tried their best to shut down discussions of and investigations into both Gannon and the Franklin Kids, what would be their "purpose" in leading us down this path?

[bin.dare]

225. let me try to speculate ...

... with the caveat that i know nothing of what i talk about.

Recent history has shown us how successful the RW has been in gaining control of media --- all media, press, TV, radio, etc. The one remaining bastion is the internet. Speculation: Rove is contriving an incident that will show the "out of control", "slanderous", "wildly irresponsible", etc etc behavior of the bloggers. Congress will chime in that this proves the need for legislation to regulate the internet. The chosen incident must be such as to affect someone personally like POTUS --- "even the private life of our past presidents is fair game for these wretches". The game plan is to allow the bloggers to bring forth the "dirt" and then bingo, they will trot out "the truth" and before we know it we will be giving DNA samples in order to log on.

[merh]

228. That will not work.

Their little supporters and grass roots efforts are as deeply imbedded in the internet as ours. Also, Clinton was pursued becaus of sex, that little blue dress and the efforts to impeach him were spurred by the internet efforts of the right wing.

They do control the media - they don't want us to further investigate Gannon or the pedophile scandals, thus the media has ignored Gannon's sexual habits. People have died because they were involved in such investigations. This is not a rove tactic, imho.

[bin.dare]

256. i'm reluctant to defend even my own speculation but hey ...

... who else will?

here is an interesting read:
http://www.crisispapers.org/Editorials/internet.htm

AFTER THE INTERNET
By Ernest Partridge
Co-Editor, The Crisis Papers
September 23, 2003

It is not too soon for progressives to ponder, “what would we do without the internet?” for it is folly for us to take the internet for granted.

For consider: The right wing has captured AM talk radio, cable (so-called) “news,” and six Bush-friendly “conservative” corporations control virtually all commercial broadcasting and publishing. The only remaining free and diverse mass media “marketplace of ideas” is the Internet. It would be naive to think that the corporate establishment does not also have its sights set on the internet.

No doubt about it: the progressive internet is a threat, for it has recently displayed considerable political clout. The internet promoted and coordinated the international anti-war protests that brought millions into the streets. It cost Trent Lott his majority leadership in the Senate. It has been the primary stimulus to the Howard Dean campaign. And it was a prominent source of the public indignation that led to the Congressional overturning of the FCC ownership ruling. As ever more citizens lose confidence in the credibility of the corporate media, they are turning to the internet, and through it to international and independent sources of reliable news of the world and of their own country and politics. It is a trend that is continuing and accelerating.

Surely, the grand Poobahs of the corporate-GOP-media complex will not sit still for this!

But what can they do about it? Unfortunately, there is much they can do.

(there is lots more, a good read)
...

[merh]

262. I have read that article and most of the ones that claim that

the interent is next. The FEC is trying to decide how to reign political forums like this in. That being said, it is a two edged sword that will cut the RWers as deep as it will cut us. The RWer's used the internet to promote their Rathergate, to call for the impeachment of clinton, to promote their theory that Foster was murdered, to complain to the FCC about Janet Jackson's boob, to raise money for the Swiftees, to stop the viewing of F/911 during the election . . .

I could go on, but I think you get the point.

A RNC lobbyist who was responsible for the media interests of the party died of a drug overdose shortly after the Gannon story did hit the air waves. Odd, a RNC lobbyist committed suicide in the '80's shortly after the pedophilia allegations were made public.

They do not want the stories to be pursued.

[bin.dare]

273. i posted about the suicides a while back but nobody responded ...

...

My take on Bush etc is that he is not RW or Xian or fundie or pro-life or War President or whatever, he is simply a whore for corporate america --- which is why Cheney chose him and then chose himself as VP. The NET is to be viewed as new money oppurtunities (as in HS, WOT, etc), simply in those low and crass terms. Bush and the corporistists will as quickly screw the RW (or Xians or his mother) as the rest of us if there is money to be made it.

Which brings us back to Gosch/Guckert/Gannon ... shit, i thought it did. ah well.

[merh]

276. Yes, it is an odd circle isn't it!

And it definitely isn't the circle of life. Too many deaths are tied to the weed and his band of rethugs!

They may not be RW or Xian or fundie, but they rely on them for donations and to give the appearance of "support". The only problem is, the opinion polls don't reflect that support.

[slaveplanet]

296. I agree and disagree

I agree that they don't want the Gannon story pursued, I disagree about the double edge sword assumption.

There is a little thing called selective enforcement, it is what conrol is all about , and the exact reason why the FEC wants to poke it's nose into what you write and the thoughts you express.

You bring up the FCC , there is no better example of selective enforcement than with Howard Stern / Oprah ...when it comes to identical issues, thay fine Howard but give Oprah a pass , even though Oprah was equally or more salacious in the delivery.

The only difference will be , when incedents like this finally happen on the internet, there will be no reports of it in the NYT.

[KoKo]

229. If Guckert is NOT a Franklin kid but just a co-opted gay guy who had a

website making extra money but had a secret wish to be a journalist or got involved with a lover who felt he could use what Jimmy/Jeff's dreams were and exploited him by pushing him on Rove (or maybe Rove had the involvement on his own) and then planted him in the WH Press Pool...giving legitimacy to his "lover" but still knowing Jimmy/Jeff's love was loyal to them that gave him his "Big Press Job" then it would folow that there is much there that is a "real love relationship" and "co-opting" and Rovian Methods could come into play here.

Rove knows the "lover bit" and uses Jimmy/Jeff but knows that we Dems on Websites are kind of desperate to get INFO out because Rove/Corporatists now own ALL the MEDIA.

So...Rove being a very Machiavellian clever person says: "Sooner or later these folks are going to be desperate over how far we've gone to deny them "media access" and they are going to have to "Over-Reach" and get out there into other stuff to get noticed. Since Rove knows where many of the younger Bush's "bodies" are buried and a little of Poppy Bush's Bodies.....he figures that given no other OUTS that we will eventually need to go TABLOID. And so we do and start connecting Jimmy/Jeff to the long ago "dead to archives" scandal about Franklin Kids.

That's what I'm trying to say. It may be more simple or complicated than what I'm saying but we are dealing with a "Master of Disinformation" here....we need to know what the game is. :shrug:

I'm only being "hypothetical" here...but I'm a cautious person and we are dealing with master criminals here.

[merh]

235. The Rove machine has yet to stop the LIHOP & MIHOP

discussions and/or tried to use them to exploit "dem" message boards and those theories are more harmful to our "credibility" than is the Franklin Kids and Gannon theory. Afterall, hundreds of thousands of people watched the events of 9/11.

If Rove and company tried to shut down the internet, that would be the straw that would break the camels back. The RWer's have been using the internet to reek havoc on dem candidates and leaders for years, without it they would be weakened. That is a two-edged sword that would cut them as deeply as it would us.

[KoKo]

237. I didn't say they were going to try to shut down internet, though...n/t

[hiley]

232. mzmolly thank you

All of your posts that I remember on this thread are of curious nature and I for one appreciate this.



http://www.seo-blog.org/5755_omfg_rageagainstthegop_machine

[enid602]

179. Gosch-Gannon

The Gosch-Gannon connection, if proved, would be a Hollywood ending. Estranged son reunited with mom, and all live happily ever after. Part of me wants to believe that, especially for Noreen's sake. Notwithstanding, why has someone been so careful to leave a trail of bread crumbs in the forest? This trail seems to lead further and deeper into the Franklin cover-up and sex abuse scandals. I can't think of any time when so much attention has been paid to Franklin/MK Ultra/McMartin/Monarch/Bohemia Grove.

I urge all interested posters to google Kay Griggs, and download her interviews re: her Marine Colonel husband's diary which describes the extent to which male on male sex abuse and initiations/brainwashing has occurred in the Marines. Sure, she may have an axe to grind, but I wonder how many other military wives and victims will now come out of the woodwork. I think that the populace's traditional inability to digest this type of information is breaking down, and that public interest will be ignited even if the MSM decides to ignore it. If this happens, I think a lot of the credit will have to go to DU pioneers like Andy, who had the balls to initiate the discussion in the first place.

[kohodog]

190. So who then is this man with no past?

Gannon, Guckert, Gosch? The fact that no one has come forward as having been a friend, associate or anything like that is pretty amazing. The White House reporter with no past. That is the part of the story that makes me wonder how he got there and where he got access.

[H2O Man]

267. That's really the question,

isn't it? I think we're back to the park bench. Who can have a background that no media is able to document? To the extent that no editorials have said, "Whoa! Who is this fellow?" I'm guessing that most prostitutes could not find their way into White House press conferences, and then be able to keep total control over the media investigations of their background.

[newsguyatl]

194. ...

[KoKo]

216. Google"Franklin Group" then come back to DU and look for "Gosch" in

"DU Search." There are quite a few threads about this...but maybe someone will give you the thread links.

Still..."Google" ..Franklin Group and you will have the basics to get it. Is Gannon/Guckert the missing abducted Johnny Gosch...who may be brainwashed and is the son of "Noreen" whose child was abducted which was the subject of an MSNBC Special Crime Report with "Imuses own Bo Dietl as the "MC" and our own Andy Stephenson (who did a great job) as one of the witnesses along with Noreen who's not sure if "Jimmy/Jeff" is her son or not against those who think "Jimmy/Jeff" IS her missing son who was abducted many years ago when "Franklin Group" was operating and using kids as "sex slaves" of which Poppy Bush might have had some involvement. And, it get's worse from there...but this is enough just to get your "fee wet" so to speak. :shrug:

Is this a story or not...is the question from Pitt as to whether he should get "Truth Out" involved. Some of us think NOT...

I probably haven't added everything and ommitted much...but you asked to be clued..so I hope it's some help. :shrug:

[Name removed]

227. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KoKo]

246. I've seen it but it's an excellent link for those who haven't, here who

are lurking wondering what the hell this big fuss is about.

Do you have more links for the "lurkers." I know there are many that have been posted here in the years I've been reading. They are good background for many of us take Franklin Group so seriously.

[bin.dare]

195. "connections that do not actually exist" --- hmmm, how do ...

... you know? have you done the research? have you even read all the threads?

"So convince me". No, no, YOU convince me why the hell I should bother wasting my time on someone who is close minded on this?

[Jeanette in FL]

199. Meanwhile, has anyone heard from Andy since his appearence

on MSNBC. Maybe I am just missing it, but I have not seen any posts from Andy since he told us he was going to be on. Just a bit worried.

[EFerrari]

210. Only what I know: Andy is at a conference this weekend on

voting issues. He's a very busy and dedicated guy, our Andy.

[Ladyhawk]

215. I'm not sure when it was taped, but something like that will...

completely wipe out someone who is ill. He may need to sleep it off.

[Ladyhawk]

204. My apology to the Gannon / Gosch theorists:

I wish I'd shown your restraint, Will. :(

I got a little nasty in a recent post and I apologize to those who have looked into the Gannon / Gosch connection and think it merits further investigation. It is not my place to judge. I was just shocked because I hadn't heard anything about it until I read a particular thread and it just struck me as...impossible. I hope anyone who was offended will accept my apology.

Maybe I can say it better this time: I don't buy the Gannon / Gosch connection story. You'll have to prove it, I'm afraid.

And yes, Andy, I still love you. You looked and sounded awesome on national TV! Really. :) I'm still thinking about you every single day and hoping for a complication-free surgery and full recovery.

:hug:

[EFerrari]

231. Wasn't Andy wonderful?

The thing is, that like most responsible theorists, we're asking questions. And this process has been widely misread by DU.

Truth is the goal.

[Ladyhawk]

236. Andy IS wonderful. :)

And yes, he did an excellent job on national TV. Keep asking questions if you think there's something to this. :shrug: It's your time. :) If you turn out to be right, I'll eat every single word of that nasty post publicly...in its own thread. :D

[EFerrari]

255. If we don't ask, how will we ever know?

Cheers, Ladyhawk.

[hiley]

253. Your apology is most accepted

and thank you for your graciousness.
Andy has so much love and good thoughts going to him that it can only help him.
I don't have any problem with anyone that doesn't think there is a connection, just want free thought allowed.
The only problem I have is be accused of saying or writing something that I did not write.


However, You Ladyhawk are peachy in my book.
BTW! anyone have HBO Whoopi is on new show now !

http://www.seo-blog.org/5755_omfg_rageagainstthegop_machine

[Catherine Vincent]

291. Thank you for that apology, LadyHawk.

I didn't get offended but maybe someone else did. But there are some offensive posts here, that's for sure.

[BamaBecky]

218. The problem with this story lies at it's "base",

the fact that Satanism exists. People had rather not ponder this at all, much less that it exists. The ramifications of Satanism are so hideous, so bizarre, so evil, skill crawling...that people want to run far a way, turn away, look the other way....they don't want to touch it with a 10 foot poll! Where does that leave the children? Are we, as a society, more willing to tolerate it, than to expose it?

[Project_Willow]

226. Given the perp

and incredulity-inspired media smear campaign of the last decade (perpetuation of the ritual abuse "hysteria" lie), it will be a difficult task.

I wish some intrepid reporter would look at all the big cases and see that they were not uniformly debunked, quite the opposite.

:hi from an ex-bama girl who knows some dangerous spots in that state.

[Liberal In Texas]

230. Welcome to DU Project_Willow. n/t

[BamaBecky]

263. Bless your heart! Warm welcome to DU! feel free to contact me

anythime with questions about DU. I was puzzeled by several things when I joined.....and didn't want to ask......so use me as a big sister!:hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :pals:

[Project_Willow]

281. Thank you for the welcome!

BamaBecky and Libntexas too!
I will do that, I am not sure how to get these smilies to work yet even. :toast:

[specimenfred1984]

219. How Much Will You Pay Me?

to do your research for you?

[merh]

238. Just a little more food for thought. Just a supposition.

Could part of the 'hiding in plain sight' strategy of Gannon/Gosch be the use of the name of an individual who trashed his mother and her efforts to find her son? James Gannon was the name of former editor of the newspaper that began the ridicule of Noreen Gosch back in the '80s, shortly after Johnnie disappeared.

If you were the son of Noreen Gosch, wouldn't you find it fitting to adopt that person's name as the name that would become forever associated with who you really are, how you have been tormented, and just how damaging you are going to be.

[hiley]

242. don't that make you want to go hmmmmm

good tid bit, merh









http://www.seo-blog.org/5755_omfg_rageagainstthegop_machine

[H2O Man]

260. Could be.

When I hear the name "Gannon," I think back to the Nixon administration's press reps. Then I think some more. (grin)

[merh]

280. LOL

Then I think some more! :hi:

[H2O Man]

307. trivial pursuit:

What can DUers tell us about a man named Gannon from the Nixon administration?

[peacetalksforall]

245. "Any time that article is linked here the post is deleted. "

This quote is from Merh in post #47.

I try to follow the rules, but I believe for the first time in my long participation on this forum, I have had two messages deleted - both related to Gannon on two different threads. I reread the rules and can't match up what I wrote that would get my messages deleted other than references to 'that' article.

You're statement makes me really curious. If there are DU reasons for deleting some stuff for legal reasons, I'll respect it, but it would be so much more comfortable to know what the parameters are so that we can respect them instead of not knowing what was wrong. If there is something can be inserted in to the rules and the specific rule can be pointed to we could immediately back off for the sake of protecting DU and ourselves.

I'm not comfortable with the mystery. Maybe this is just too big of a story. If DU has been legally warned and the best way of handling it is a deletion, let it be, I guess.

It is sad that we even have to be discussing this subject. Why do we? Because it is all related to the people who are (or who think they are) running the show in this country. We should all be out fishing of planting like we used to. We have to figure out who to fight to save the country and how we're doing do it, We have to find out who are enemies are. We have to stay ahead of the dis-reality.

[merh]

254. I couldn't agree more with your concerns about our parameters

and your sentiments regarding what we should be doing today, if we didn't have to struggle for the truth and against the evil that is doing its damnedest to destroy the nation I love. :hi:

[BamaBecky]

264. My guess is this:

>>Maybe this is just too big of a story<< You may have something there!

[KoKo]

248. After over 200 posts has Will Pitt got enough Info to convince him? n/t

[troubleinwinter]

250. See post #167

[KoKo]

252. And, my post #221. n/t

[wildflowergardener]

261. Could a yearbook be computer simulated?

Hi. Yesterday was the first I saw of this particular speculation, and I agree that there are enough similarities - and possible coincidences (ex. the newspaper editors name) to make one wonder. The story does seem quite out there - but sometimes truth is stranger than fiction.

My question is if, (and it's a big if) all of this is true and as wild as it seems to me, the CIA was someone involved in this - or even if they were not - and a person wanted to create a new identity for themselves - with today's technology would it be possible to go to a school, get a school yearbook computer edit it, and place it back on the library shelf.

It would be like something out of a movie, but it would be possible, wouldn't it? I think the yearbook picture does look enough like Gannon to convince me it's a picture of him when young.

I'm not convinced one way or another but it certainly is interesting.

Meg

[seemslikeadream]

259. Dyncorp pedophiles and their apologist Donald Rumsfeld

OUT OF THE PENALTY BOX IF YOU WILL

...

Moreover, the British report was not the first such case reported. In fact, it followed on the heels of a report from Portugal. On November 27, 2002, the press reported a scandal of pedophile ring run from a state orphanage. The Guardian reported that the scandal threatened to engulf diplomats, media personalities and senior politicians. Photographs of senior government officials with young boys from Lisbon's Casa Pia orphanage were among the evidence. More shocking however, were the revelations that systematic sexual abuse of children at the home had allegedly been going on for more than 20 years and had been known to police and other authorities for most of that time.

On January 14, 2002, Insight Magazine reported the charges leveled by Ben Johnson against his employer Dyncorp, a major defense contractor. Johnson charged that officials and employees of Dyncorp were engaging in perverse, illegal and inhumane behavior and were purchasing illegal weapons, women, forged passports and participating in other immoral acts. Johnson had witnessed his supervisors and fellow employees buying 12- to 15-year-olds as sex slaves.

While prostitution is the world’s oldest profession, the global sex trade is big business. The impact of illegal immigrant traffic in Canada is estimated at between $120 million to $400 million per year accounting for approximately 8,000 to 16,000 people arriving in Canada per year illegally. The estimate is from Organized Crime Impact Study, prepared for the Solicitor General of Canada. The majority of the illegal immigrants are forced into prostitution and come from Vietnam and China. Once smuggled into Canada the young girls are sold into bondage throughout a North America network. Moreover, Canada is not alone. Young Russians and Ukrainian women that wish to immigrate to Israel are often smuggled into the country destitute and at the mercy of their pimp.

More disgusting is the role the United States government plays in facilitating this global sex trade. Instead of banning the previously mentioned Dyncorp from further defense contracts, the regime of George W Bush rewards it in granting major contracts for the Iraqi war. Even more shameful is the wink and nod the state department grants the Saudis. The Arabian Peninsula has long been known to be purchasers of slaves. Mostly the slaves came from India or Africa however, with the advent of the oil wealth the Saudis have became more selective and are known as high-end buyers. The Saudi Arabian Government continues to refuse to sign the United Nation’s treaty on slavery and extradition treaties. There have been several incidents in the past where the media has reported a slave of a Saudi prince brought into the United States escaped. The State Department then intervenes and returns the escaped slave to the Saudi prince and the incident forgotten. The State Department exempts the Saudi princes from normal custom procedures. A child slave bought by a Saudi prince can be delivered to his plane and allowed to depart without the required passport for the child. One fortunate victim that became entangled in the Saudi sex ring was the former Miss USA Shannon Marketic. She had been lured to Saudi Arabia by what she believed was legitimate modeling work. Being a high profile case she was returned to the United States and filed suit. The former Miss USA lost her lawsuit as the State department granted immunity to her abductors.
more
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/08/1635631_comment.php#1635683

Transcript of Representative Cynthia McKinney's Exchange with Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Richard Myers, and Under Secretary of Defense (Comptroller) Tina Jonas, March 11th, 2005

Sec. of Defense Rumsfeld in House Hearing on FY06 Dept. of Defense Budget
Chairman Representative Duncan Hunter (R-CA) and witnesses Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and JCS Chairman General Richard Myers hold a House Hearing on the FY 2006 Budget for the Department of Defense and Military Services.
3/11/2005: WASHINGTON, DC: 2 hr. 5 min.

CMK: Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney (D-GA)
DR: Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld
RM: Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Richard Myers
TJ: Under Secretary of Defense (Comptroller) Tina Jonas
DH: Chairman Representative Duncan Hunter (R-CA)

25:20
CMK: Thank you Mr. Chairman. Mr. Secretary, I watched President Bush deliver a moving speech at the United Nations in September 2003, in which he mentioned the crisis of the sex trade. The President called for the punishment of those involved in this horrible business. But at the very moment of that speech, DynCorp was exposed for having been involved in the buying and selling of young women and children. While all of this was going on, DynCorp kept the Pentagon contract to administer the smallpox and anthrax vaccines, and is now working on a plague vaccine through the Joint Vaccine Acquisition Program. Mr. Secretary, is it policy of the U.S. Government to reward companies that traffic in women and little girls?

That's my first question. My second question, Mr. Secretary: according to the Comptroller General of the United States, there are serious financial management problems at the Pentagon, to which Mr. Cooper alluded.

Fiscal Year 1999: $2.3 trillion missing.

Fiscal Year 2000, $1.1 trillion missing.

...

27:26
DR: Thank you, Representative. First, the answer to your first question is, is, no, absolutely not, the policy of the United States Government is clear, unambiguous, and opposed to the activities that you described. The second question -

CMK: Well how do you explain the fact that DynCorp and its successor companies have received and continue to receive government contracts?

DR: I would have to go and find the facts, but there are laws and rules and regulations with respect to government contracts, and there are times that corporations do things they should not do, in which case they tend to be suspended for some period; there are times then that the - under the laws and the rules and regulations for the - passed by the Congress and implemented by the Executive branch - that corporations can get off of - out of the penalty box if you will, and be permitted to engage in contracts with the government. They're generally not barred in perpetuity -

CMK: This contract - this company - was never in the penalty box. If you could proceed to my second question, please.

DR: The second question - I've forgotten what the second question was.

more
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/031505_mckinney_transcript.shtml

[EFerrari]

284. Thank you, SLAD.

Yet another reason to detest Mr. Rumskull.

[enid602]

290. Rumskull?

I think you left the 'P' out of Rumpskull.

[Mojorabbit]

269. Something strange IS going on

If she saw her son in the late nineties she should be able to identify him. THe talk of grainy pics rings false. There are a gazillion clear pics and video of him. Plenty for her to tell if it is him by pic and voice.
Also strange is his toying with her and everyone else. "Ask me", then "No, I can't talk about it".
Something just is not right about any of it. I can see him doing it for attention maybe...but I cannot figure her out. She has to know one way or another. It is just strange.

[Minstrel Boy]

271. There's this to consider:

She may not be as unsure as she publically states.

If he is Gosch, then a positive identification from his mother, or an admission from him, could endanger his life.

Both Noreen Gosch and Guckert seem be dancing around this, reluctant to be definitive, yet giving signals.

[Catherine Vincent]

275. The thing is that when he came to visit her in the middle of the night

in 95 (or whatever year it was), you need to remember she hasn't seen him since he was 12. That's a pretty big gap and we all change from being 12 and then the next time someone sees us, we're 25. And Mrs. Gosch was told by Johnny that he changes his looks a lot.

[Rex]

287. Anything to keep our minds off of gas prices and coffins

coming home from Iraq. The MSM always have stories ready in the background. News today consists of crap, filth and death. Even death gets scrutinized - local news loves talking about car crash/bar stabbing/drive by death, but not soldiers killed in Iraq. Soldiers come home in pitch black night. Gannon was placed into the WH press-critters because he was a 'top'. WTF he did to get there and who he did is anyones guess. 911 will never be explained by the gummit, it would damage their reputation with the moderates.

[Catherine Vincent]

293. Here's one little piece of convincing....

Remember, I said one little piece.

[photophreak]

300. After seeing the yearbook photos...

...That sequence is as convincing as this:



Compared to the Gosch-to-Gannon composite, the yearbook photos are an exact match to Gannon. To continue Gannon=Gosch speculation, one must account for the yearbook photos by either postulating a fabricated (and planted) yearbook or postulating plastic surgery. Not that either would be impossible. But there may well be connections between Gannon and Gosch apart from Gannon=Gosch. E.g., maybe Gannon is a former sex slavery victim himself, and/or maybe Gannon is the person who visited Noreen Gosch in '97. Who knows.

[WilliamPitt]

301. Yep. You broke my brain with that one.

jhdfa;fq;erufhvajvqa;ufhq';/rufhqeurvfhq;rcn1

[Griffy]

303. Will.. did you watch the "franklin coverup" video?

I am not convinced of this connection yet either... but I can see it being true too. I find it odd we cant simply find his parents, siblings?... I'll let those closer to the facts find the missing links.. if they do, I wont be suprised.. if not.. I'm glad to see someone else is trying to find truth, doing investigations!

The "Franklin coverup" video that was linked in the threads was a distubing piece, I would be interested on your take. I goes to the plausablity I think, its not easy to accept the child slave trade in America, much less to believe our leaders are involved. I would never make such accusations lightly, and I am still looking for the truth, and justice.

Thanks for doing what you do, America desperatly needs public awareness and good journalism.

BTW.. I saw Gannon last week on the beltway here in DC ...

:hide:

[rman]

305. the possible mom isn't to sure

she says only a DNA test would be proof.

it's interesting to see the MSM running with what is practically a non story.

[underpants]

306. I don't buy it FAR too much of a reach and WAY to conspiratorial

IMHO

[Moderator]

308. Locking....

Due to length and it appears that
everyone has had their say.



DU Moderator