Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Class Action Lawsuit against Countrywide, California

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Economy Donate to DU
 
dixiegrrrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 08:47 PM
Original message
Class Action Lawsuit against Countrywide, California
And the charges are spectacular.

Look, the best explanation is over at The Market Ticker site, makes for fantastic reading.
(We bought, unwittingly, from Countryside, so I will watch this one very very carefully.)

*Countrywide is alleged to not only have made bad loans, but also to have intentionally inflated appraisals.

*So not only (it is alleged) did Countrywide bamboozle borrowers, they also bamboozled investors.

Here, read, enjoy, maybe weep. Remember, BOA is on the hook now for all Countryside crimes.

http://www.market-ticker.org/akcs-www?blog=Market-Ticker
Refresh | +11 Recommendations Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
DirkGently Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 10:58 PM
Response to Original message
1. Good to see someone putting all this together. Don't know that "BOA is on the hook" for everything
CW may have done. Inflated appraisals will surprise no one. Question is, who gets "paid back," and how. I disagree with the notion on Market-Ticker that millions of mortgage borrowers are going to get to invalidate their mortgage liens over all this nonsense. They did get the money and property, after all. The damage to consumers was to the MARKET. This is why house prices went up so far beyond any reasonable valuation, leaving so many people with unmanageable mortgages that can't be refinanced due to lack of equity.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
northernlights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 05:22 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. because the also don't have marketable, insurable titles
the notes were destroyed, the resale of loans not properly registered in order to avoid fees, and now the major title insurers refuse to insure the titles.

The properties are now in no-man's land. You can't keep up with the mortgage on the one hand, you can't refinance, you can't sell into *any* market on the other.

60% of the homes in the U.S. now cannot be sold with a clear title. No insurance means no new mortgage on them. Only cash buyers can buy them...and why would they?

Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
DirkGently Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. That's not the case at all, at least for now. Only titles coming out of f/c. We shall see.
Edited on Sun Oct-10-10 11:00 AM by DirkGently
It's not the case that a borrower's title is affected by any of this. You can certainly refinance or sell.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
northernlights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-10 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. you may want to check out market ticker
Karl Denninger and also Zero Hedge.

http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=168722

It is only just now breaking through to the msm, and it has been discovered as a result of the foreclosure nightmare, but it effects something like 97% of mortgages written since 2003...which have broken chain of title due to MERS system. I've read so much about it in the last few days I can't see straight or remember what goes where. But it's scary, scary stuff.

(Personally, I'm not worried...I bought cash from people who'd bought nearly 30 years ago. So I'm not affected directly. In fact, my house could end up worth a bit more when this all comes out).
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
DirkGently Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-10 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Saw that. Think they may be overreaching.

No one knows exactly where this is going, and it's definitely a mess, but I disagree with the notion that MERS has rendered every chain of title in which it was used "broken." Who's going to challenge these titles? MERS? A prior owner who defaulted on their mortgage?

There's a leap being made between the "robo-signing," which was a massive, unethical shortcut lenders and their servicers and lawyers took to get proof of ownership of a mortage, and the idea that all of these mortgages (and subsequent foreclosures) were completely illegitimate and hence now forever unenforceable. That COULD be the case, but it's an unlikely outcome, in my opinion.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
northernlights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-10 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. what is your background?
I ask because I'm not an economist, real estate anything or lawyer. But I look at market ticker, zero hedge and the responses of several people who seem very knowledgeable about the above, including an auditor.

So I'm interested in counterweight opinions. (My personal feeling is, since I'm trying to sell my mortgage-free house, a foreclosure freeze takes a bunch of houses off the market, making more prospects available to me. But a total meltdown would leave nobody buying at all. So I hope you're right but fear you're wrong.)
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
DirkGently Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Past experience suggests flinging credentials in Internet forums is a bad idea. 8)
And I don't claim to have the last, best, or only word on the subject anyway, especially given that new information comes out daily. Let me be clear: I DON'T KNOW how all of this will shake out.

So please take or leave my opinions on their merits (or lack of same) alone. I WILL disclaim that I have any interest in the Evil side of this, since that accusation was tossed at me in another thread. Not a lender or employee of a lender, or a foreclosure lawyer, or the owner of MERS, or anything. :)

What I do know is that if someone received a purchase money loan, or funds to pay off a purchase money loan for real property, that it's extremely rare for any legal argument to defeat the accompanying mortgage, or, barring that, a claim for an equitable lien based on the loan.

I think a leap is being made here, based on a lot of things, including (righteous) anger at the banks and investment companies, the bad things they've already been caught doing, and people in distress who would very much like for their mortgage to go away. The conclusion I question is that there are, as one article making the rounds suggested, "60 million foreclosure-proof houses!"

I question the idea that these people were cheating on the foreclosure paperwork because the mortgages themselves were somehow wholly invalid. I don't disagree that the whole market bubble, subprime, "tranching" debacle was a species of fraud on the public, the country, and the world. And maybe it would be just if the result was that ALL such mortgages were unenforceable. I just doubt it's going to work out that way.

It looks to be clear that banks and the foreclosure firms have been cheating on documents needed for foreclosures on a huge scale. What I question is the deeper conspiracy suggesting they did this because there was really no mortgage to enforce. I think in most cases they simply couldn't be bothered to track down notes, or get the necessary affidavits from notoriously slow-responding banks, who nonetheless stress foreclosing quickly over everything else. That's illegal, of course, and upon a challenge, could overturn a foreclosure. Barring some other problem, though, a new foreclosure action would be brought.

Even a lost note isn't fatal -- if the borrower signed one, it can be "re-established." Basically, it's very hard to argue to a judge that you took $400,000 to buy a house, signed a mortgage pledging the house as collateral, but now believe there is no lien because the paperwork was mishandled. Not saying it can't happen, but I do think people are missing some forest for the trees.

One "big idea" that's being raised has to do with the way the mortgages were transferred electronically through "MERS." MERS is basically a database lenders came up with so that wouldn't have to actually produce and record "Assignments of Mortgage" to transfer mortgages from one institution to another. In theory, the transfers occurred, but simply didn't get put on paper until the mortgage was to be enforced. There would be some computer trail as to who supposedly owned the mortgage at any given time, or an "Assignment in blank," to be filled in with the name of the very last holder of the mortgage, but recording laws don't recognize such transfers if not put on paper and recorded in the local land records. When the mortgage was to be foreclosed, the Plaintiff would only then produce the paperwork. Question, is, does that even work? What if one entity in the "chain" of transfers is bankruptcy and defunct when the paperwork is created?

A lot of people have thought that MERS was a bad idea, and anti-consumer, for a long time. It makes it nearly impossible to tell who holds a mortgage. And the lenders and investors like it that way.

Then there's another argument suggesting that the process of securitization itself makes these transfers impossible. The mortgages are "chopped up" and divided at the outset, it is argued, and can't really be transferred to anyone after the fact, so all the purported MERS-enabled whizzing mortgages from one entity to another is a nullity. That's really outside of my area, but it's an interesting question, and may hold some water. A couple of things though.

1) Not all mortgages were handled this way. A non-subprime mortgage typically wouldn't be, for example. Maybe one lender originates it, and it goes to just one more. Typically there will be a real "Assignment." In that case, I don't think any of these arguments apply. If you had good credit, and got a standard 30-yr, fixed mortgage with Countrywide (now BOA) there's probably no "MERS" or securitization argument to make.

2) With the others -- the subprime stuff that got chopped and flung about and whipped through MERS like a souffle, I think there's a real question as to how whoever is trying to foreclose can establish that THAT entity really owns and holds the mortgage. I'm aware of foreclosing lenders stopping in their tracks when asked to show that. They usually come up with the documents they need, eventually. But if those documents are faked ...?

Either way, I'm not sure I buy the idea that these mortgages disintegrated at inception. But if so, too bad. I have no sympathy for the investors in the subprime frenzy that crashed the world economy. Maybe that IS the way to convince everyone that this giant con game the lenders and financiers cooked up really is a failure for everyone.

Just don't bail them out this time.

I also don't there's going to some global determination that already-completed foreclosures were invalid en masse, and that the titles held by anyone who purchased out of those foreclosures are "broken." For a title to really be "broken," there has to be someone out there who can challenge it with a better claim. Who would that be? The former owner who defaulted on their mortgage? Not likely. So, I don't think the real estate market is going to implode under the weight of millions of "bad" post-foreclosure titles.

Some title insurance companies are refusing to insure titles coming out of foreclosure. That's going to slow down lenders' sales of property they acquired at their own foreclosure sales. But I don't think it will stop it. Whack off a few more dollars, and investors will buy without title insurance.

I don't think it's a good time to be trying to sell a house, whichever way you look at it. I think it's good for *people* that foreclosures are slowing and stopping on a big scale -- tossing families out on the street and having more and more houses owned by "investors" looking to rent or flip for a quick buck is bad for everyone. But it will probably depress prices even more.

What I'd really like to see happen is for the Administration to use this opportunity to force a foreclosure relief program on all the big lenders. The Obama administration has asked nicely already -- twice -- and been completely ignored. Make it mandatory, in exchange for some certainty that "60 million mortgages" aren't going to simply be unenforceable.

I'm worried that won't happen. Or that the "relief" that appears will be for lenders only. "Here, this a law that lets you foreclose no matter what, you poor things." "Here's some taxpayer money so you don't lose your collective shirts, because that would crash the real estate market AGAIN, and we can't have that."

The White House has already said it doesn't favor a moratorium on foreclosures. The voice I hear speaking though, is that of lenders and their investors, who are terrified of this. Despite the fact that I think it's unlikely all of these mortgages are permanently unenforceable, if we can't get some relief for people victimized by the insane housing frenzy the LENDERS CAUSED, I'd say this:

Let them fall this time. Grit our teeth and let it happen. Let the investors and their banks burn, even if they takes some of us with them, because until those guys feel some pain, this cycle will be repeated endlessly.


Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
northernlights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. thank you
I agree that the people I've been reading may be focussed totally on the trees.

We are totally in agreement on your last point. Happily I don't think the masses would stand for a Tarp 2.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
DirkGently Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-10 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Just had a conversation with someone with a more national perspective on these issues.

Tended to confirm at least some of my perceptions:

1. The "robo-signing" has been going on for years, but even those involved never thought it was to "cover up" unenforceable mortgages. The documents can be gotten, just not as fast as lenders and their lawyers want them. So dirty was done, yes, but the next leap people are making -- that it's because "all those mortgages are buls@*t" is not on anyone's radar.

2. The notion of whether ownership of tranched mortgages can be proven has been litigated to death, and no one has beaten a mortgage on this theory.

3. Even if there is found to be a problem with MERS-transferrred / held mortgages, no one is concerned that people who have MERS and a foreclosure in the chain of title will have a title problem, for the reason I'd suggested -- it would require a prior owner who had defaulted on their mortgage to get counsel and sue. Not likely.

All of which, again, is not definitive, or proof of anything, nor does it diminish the badness of the whole subprime bubble, the practices of large-scale foreclosure firms, etc. It just really doesn't look like the mortgage / real estate Armageddon being suggested by some out there.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
northernlights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. from Roubini...with national, international, historical and, of course, economic perspective...
interesting reading.
http://www.roubini.com/us-monitor/259737/foreclosure_fraud_reveals_structural___legal_crisis

Today, we will put that crisis into the greater context of the entire real estate industry, from purchases to the securitization of mortgages to default and foreclosure. What this discussion reveals are a series of short cuts, (il)legal fictions, and an utter disrespect for the mechanisms of legal property transfer that underlies our entire system of Capitalism....


....In three simple steps, centuries of property law have been undercut:

1) ....Thanks to a legal fiction that pretends to follow the law — but actually does not — MERS has saved banks more than $1 billion. It has also turned what was a very successful system of tracking who owns what property and making it easy to transfer into a dysfunctional nightmare....

2) Improper Construction of RMBS/CDOs:

Structured mortgage securities are typically constructed as Trusts. The Trust holds the mortgage notes, which allows the bundling to occur.

....The creation of an RMBS or CDO needs at least two legal events to occur: One, the actual note the bank holds needs to be deposited into the Trust. Observe that it is the note holder who is entitled to receive principle and interest payments, who has a lien against the encumbered property, and has the right to foreclose and take the property in the event of a default.....

....In some cases, the courts have allowed the representatives to foreclose and evict despite their admission that the original mortgage note is lost. (This raises the question as to whether these mortgage notes are really lost or might have been fraudulently used in multiple securitizations, a concern raised by some Wall Street veterans.)











Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Po_d Mainiac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. Interesting point.."Cash only"
"Cash only" has been showing up a lot on REO listings for at least the 2 months I've been looking in the So. Florida area for one of the kids.

I set her off to try and find what that was all about..Seems these are all known to have defective titles...and obviously it's been known for a while by the likes of WF and BoA. Hmmm

Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu May 02nd 2024, 04:26 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Economy Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC