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Congress, White House Focus On Fossil Fuels, Nuclear Power Is Out Of Touch With Views Of Mainstream

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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 11:18 AM
Original message
Congress, White House Focus On Fossil Fuels, Nuclear Power Is Out Of Touch With Views Of Mainstream
2012 ELECTION SURVEY: Congress, White House Focus On Fossil Fuels, Nuclear Power Is Out Of Touch With Views Of Mainstream America

If Washington had to choose between fossil fuel/nuclear subsidies and wind/solar subsidies, "clean energy" aid would get support from three times more Americans than fossil fuel/nuclear energy subsidies. Only a bit more than one in 10 American adults (13 percent) - including just 20 percent of Republicans, 9 percent of Independents, 10 percent of Democrats, and only 24 percent of Tea Party supporters - are in favor of concentrating federal energy subsidies on the coal, nuclear power and natural gas industries. When it comes to focusing federal subsidies on wind and solar, 38 percent of all Americans are supportive -- about three times the support level for fossil fuel/nuclear subsidies. Only about one in 10 Americans (13 percent) - including just 26 percent of Tea Party supporters -- believes that "no energy source should receive federal subsidies."

Fossil fuel subsidies are opposed by Americans on a bipartisan basis. Six in 10 Americans - including a strikingly uniform 59 percent of Republicans, 65 percent of Independents, 59 percent of Democrats, and 59 percent of Tea Party members -- oppose "federal subsidies for oil and gas, coal, natural gas and other fossil fuel companies."

Nuclear reactor loan guarantees are opposed by Americans on a bipartisan basis. More than two out of three Americans (67 percent) - including 65 percent of Republicans, 66 percent of Independents, 68 percent of Democrats and 62 percent of Tea Party backers - disagree that "taxpayers and ratepayers should provide taxpayer-backed loan guarantees for the construction of new nuclear power reactors in the United States through proposed tens of billions in federal loan guarantees for new reactors."

Most Americans want the U.S. to shift federal loan guarantee support from nuclear power to wind and solar energy. About seven in 10 Americans (71 percent) - including 55 percent of Republicans, 72 percent of Independents, 84 percent of Democrats, and almost half (47 percent) of Tea Party backers -- strongly or somewhat support "a shift of federal loan-guarantee support for energy away from nuclear reactors and towards clean renewable energy such as wind and solar."...

More of press release at:
http://www.civilsocietyinstitute.org/media/110311release.cfm

Download survey results here:
http://www.civilsocietyinstitute.org/media/pdfs/110311%20CSI%202012%20Energy%20Policy%20Survey%20final3.pdf
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 05:36 PM
Response to Original message
1. Only 17 percent think that "climate change is *not* a factor" in weather related disasters



"Another interesting finding is that "Few Americans dismiss a connection between extreme weather events and climate change. Fewer than one in five Americans (17 percent) think that "climate change is not a factor" in "at least 10 weather related disasters caused by so called extreme weather - (that) have occurred so far in 2011 involving $1 billion or more each in damages - now totaling about $45 billion." Fewer than half (45 percent) of Tea Party members fall into the climate change denial camp on this question."

http://www.civilsocietyinstitute.org/media/110311release.cfm

Audio presentation with Q&A available here http://www.hastingsgroupmedia.com/110311CSIenergyelectionsurvey.mp3
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-11 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. Amazing.
Polling using questions the right hasn't been programmed for finds that most people in the US (83%) actually are convinced that climate change is real, and no one here gives a damn.
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
2. I just polled myself: 100% of me wants all subsidies to go to renewables, zero to fossil and...
zero to old style nuclear. LFTR and SMRs should receive subsidies at about 1/20th the amount of renewables subsidies, split equally.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. We need breeder reactors like we need a hole in the head.
Describe the full fuel cycle for both reactors.
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. You already have 7 holes in your head. I think you'd die without them.
Edited on Thu Nov-03-11 10:16 PM by txlibdem
Describe the fuel cycle for anti-nukers: Garbage In, Garbage Out.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. You say you support nuclear power with thorium breeder reactors and small modular reactors
You claim they are superior to current technologies.

If you do not know the full fuel cycle of these two nuclear reactors then how could you possibly arrive at that conclusion? MIT doesn't see them as being better than current designs, so it would be great if you could go through the fuel cycle and explain why they are wrong.
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-11 07:26 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. MIT is full of mama's boys who can't calculate their way out of a paper bag
Or at least the "team" who did that study you keep referring to (which has dubious intent and possible pre-conclusions).

You cannot find any other study? Then it's not science... it's voodoo science (or fossil industry funded study science).

Let's wait to see that MIT study peer reviewed. Has it been yet???
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-11 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Still waiting for you to review the fuel cycle for thorium breeder reactors.
For example, you do know that they work by turning thorium into uranium, and then "burning" the uranium, right?
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-11 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Still waiting for you to review the energy needed to extract & refine a barrel of oil
Waiting, waiting, waiting.

For example, how many kilowatt hours of electricity does it take to produce a single gallon of gasoline?
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PamW Donating Member (566 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-11 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. Depends on what part of MIT you talk to...
MIT doesn't see them as being better than current designs, so it would be great if you could go through the fuel cycle and explain why they are wrong.
========================================

Many of the studies that have come out of the MIT Economics Department haven't been favorable to breeders.
If you look at breeders from purely the cost side, they are more expensive than current nuclear reactors.

However, if you read what comes out of the MIT Nuclear Engineering Department; you get a different story.
The Nuclear Engineering Dept realizes that breeders can also be run as actinide burners so that they turn long lived nuclear waste into short lived nuclear waste. They also can eliminate the nuclear proliferation problem.

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2010/nuclear-report-0916.html

The new study suggests an alternative: an enriched uranium-initiated breeder reactor in which additional natural or depleted (that is, a remnant of the enrichment process) uranium is added to the reactor core at the same rate nuclear materials are consumed. No excess nuclear materials are produced. This is a much simpler and more efficient self-sustaining fuel cycle.

There’s an additional benefit to this concept that would provide a built-in protection against nuclear weapons proliferation: Large amounts of separated plutonium, a nuclear-weapons material, are needed to start the breeder reactors in the traditional fuel cycle. In contrast, the starting uranium fuel could not be used for a weapon. On the downside, however, there are little hard data on whether such a cycle would really be practical and economically competitive.


Nuclear Engineering Professor Kazimi explains why the new study from the Nuclear Engineering Dept is different from the previous studies from the Economics Dept:

One reason the study came to such different conclusions from previous research is because it looked at the various components — from mining to reactor operation to waste disposal — holistically, explains Mujid Kazimi, the TEPCO Professor of Nuclear Engineering at MIT and co-chair of the study. “When you look at the whole thing together, you start seeing things that were not obvious before,” he says.


Pam W
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-06-11 01:53 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. Wrong Way Pam strikes again.
Edited on Sun Nov-06-11 01:58 AM by kristopher
The "2010 MIT Study on The Future oF the Nuclear Fuel Cycle" (which is the one at your link) is what I was referring to. That would be the "cross disciplinary" study that opens with a discussion of Economics and states:

"Study Findings and Recommendations
Economics
The viability of nuclear power as a significant energy option for the future depends critically on its economics. While the cost of operating nuclear plants is low, the capital cost of the plants themselves is high. This is currently amplified by the higher cost of financing construction due to the perceived financial risk of building new nuclear plants. For new base load power in the US, nuclear power plants are likely to have higher levelized electricity costs than new coal plants (without carbon dioxide capture and sequestration) or new natural gas plants. Elimi-nating this financial risk premium makes nuclear power levelized electricity cost competitive with that of coal, and it becomes lower than that of coal when a modest price on carbon diox- ide emissions is imposed. This is also true for comparisons with natural gas at fuel prices char- acteristic of most of the past decade. Based on this analysis, we recommended in 2003 that financial incentives be provided for the first group of new nuclear plants that are built. The first mover incentives put in place in the US since 2005 have been implemented very slowly.


This claim often distorted by nuclear proponents, and such distortion is address by Shrader Frechette in an exchange with Pietrangelo , in the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists;
Pietrangelo claims, "Once a nuclear energy facility is built, it produces electricity at a fraction of the cost of other sources." However, this red-herring claim is like saying, "Once you pay for your home, costs of living there are a fraction of the costs of renting."

As The Economist notes, reactor capital (including interest) costs -- which Pietrangelo ignores -- are 75 percent of fission costs. Therefore, the government says reactor capital costs PDF are "the most important factor that determines the economic competitiveness of nuclear energy." Pietrangelo thus invalidly compares 25 percent (of fission costs) to 100 percent (of costs of other electricity sources).



Market data likewise contradict Pietrangelo. Both Moody's and Standard and Poor's downgrade the credit ratings of utilities with reactors. They warn that even current, massive nuclear subsidies -- the result of lobbyists' persuading taxpayers to cover atomic- energy costs, because banks and investors refuse to do so -- rarely make fission economical. Ignoring decommissioning, waste storage, insurance, and other subsidized costs, in 2008 Moody's reported that fission still costs three times more than natural gas. In 2009, years before Fukushima, Moody's Report 117883 warned -- despite enormous subsidies -- that fission-plant investments had "substantial" economic risks and were becoming even "more negative."


http://www.thebulletin.org/web-edition/roundtables/nuclear-energy-different-other-energy-sources

Her argument is especially germane to you PamW, since it focuses on why there is disagreement about the use of nuclear power and concludes:
A second reason that might explain disagreement is failure to cite sources. Consider five examples of pro-atomic-energy claims -- about nuclear-related radiation, terrorism, costs, fuel, and emissions. All lack citations. All are contradicted by classic scientific or market data.


Those quotes are from Shrader-Frechette "Myths about nuclear reliability, radiation, and markets" at the BAS link: http://www.thebulletin.org/web-edition/roundtables/nuclear-energy-different-other-energy-sources

The Fuel Cycle discussion is the next area of the MIT paper:

Fuel Cycle
Recommendation
For the next several decades, a once through fuel cycle using light water reactors (LWRs) is the preferred economic option for the U.S. and is likely to be the dominant feature of the nuclear energy system in the U.S. and elsewhere for much of this century. Improvements in light-water reactor designs to increase the efficiency of fuel resource utilization and reduce the cost of future reactor plants should be a principal research and development focus.


In other words, despite your out of context quote the use of any existing breeder reactor is not seen as having a place in our foreseeable energy future. It is as much a hyped pipe dream today as it was in 1970 when Nixon was promising it was going to be the answer to our energy problems.

Why don't you describe, in simple step by step detail, what the full fuel cycle is for breeder reactors?
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-11 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. Please describe the full fuel cycle for both reactors.
Having at least a basic understanding of the full fuel is essential to making an informed decision.


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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-11 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Please describe the energy required to make a barrel of oil
Having at least a basic understanding of the full fuel is essential to making an informed decision?
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-11 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. No one is advocating for oil, txlibdem. You ARE advocating for nuclear.
So your diversion is transparent.

Tell me, is your reluctance due to lack of knowledge or fear of how the knowledge will be received by those you want to convince that nuclear doesn't suck?

I'm betting it is the second.
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-11 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. By advocating against nuclear you are advocating for oil (and other fossils)
Please explain the amount of energy required to make a gallon of gasoline.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-06-11 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. . No one is advocating for oil, txlibdem. You ARE advocating for nuclear.
So your diversion is transparent.

Tell me, is your reluctance due to lack of knowledge or fear of how the knowledge will be received by those you want to convince that nuclear doesn't suck?

I'm betting it is the second.
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-06-11 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. Your tactic will not work. You cannot present both sides of the argument
Your "opponent" in the debate gets to choose his or her own position and / or opinion.

Sorry that your ruse did not work.
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