Is this the kind of enlightened society some gun control advocates imagine?

[X_Digger]

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/man-ignores-teens-rape-in-flowerbed-20110712-1hbsh.html

Man ignores teen's rape in flowerbed

Police are searching for a man who appears to have ignored a teenager's cries for help as she was being raped in a flowerbed near a Parramatta church.
....
"We would love to hear from you. Anything that you would have to say to us, we would be very happy to receive a phone call," she said.

Police will review CCTV footage as part of their investigation of the incident.

This was originally posted in LBN and one reply jumped out at me..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4915984#4916040

As morally abhorrent as this man's refusal to intervene appears, ....

I can understand it. Two weeks ago in Melbourne, a 40 year old woman was stabbed (and subsequently died) when she confronted a group of youths who had "egged" her house. A stupid prank resulted in this mother of three dying. A 14 year old kid has been charged with manslaughter.

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/boy-bailed-over-womans-egging-prank-death-20110703-1gxa1.html

People are just too scared to intervene in these situations lest they become victims themselves.

I'd like to think that I would go to the aid of someone being assaulted, but there's always going to be that "what if..." factor.

P69

Is this the kind of society that those pushing gun control would welcome?

People being terrified of helping another citizen lest they be assaulted, too? Is that the end result of disarmament? I'm sorry, that's not a society I want to countenance.

[Lurks Often]

1. Or injured, killed, sued, imprisoned nt

[RevStPatrick]

2. What the hell are you talking about?

How did you get from point A to point Q?
Sheeesh!

[petronius]

12. The OP's point, I believe, is that a firearm is a potent tool for self-defense and the defense

of others. In the absence of private gun ownership, bystanders who might be willing to intervene in a crime are less able to do so safely in the face of unequal numbers, physical strength, or a weapon. A disarmed society puts the weaker more thoroughly at the mercy of the strong.

This is not a suggestion that everyone should be armed - only those who choose to accept the risks and responsibilities that come with the benefits of gun ownership. RKBA advocates, like those in this forum, argue for each individual having the liberty to make that choice for her/himself...

[SteveM]

16. That's the sense I got. nt

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[one-eyed fat man]

4. Kitty Genovese

Not the only time people who were too indifferent or too frightened or too alienated or too self-absorbed to "get involved" in helping a fellow human being in dire trouble.

No fewer than 38 of her neighbors had witnessed at least one of her killer's three attacks but had neither come to her aid nor called the police. The attacks took place over 35 minutes.

That was in New York city in 1964. That collective act of stunning urban apathy put the saying "I didn't want to get involved" into the national lexicon.

One callous citizen complained he had to turn up his radio so that he would not hear Genovese's screams.

Nearly fifty years on, they can be that way if they want, I still find it reprehensible.

[HockeyMom]

35. I was going to post about this case

You beat me to it. If a person will not use a cell phone to CALL 9/11 when witnessing a crime, why do these people think they are going to go and and buy guns to protect anybody, or even themselves?

They just don't understand the mindset of big city people. When there are 8 million people in a place, shit happens. You go on with your life. If you changed the gun laws yesterday, it would make no difference if few people went to the party.

BTW, I am old enough to have been alive, and living in NYC, when Kitty Genovese was killed. I also lived not far from the Son of Sam murders also. NEVER entered my mind to buy a gun. I just avoided going out after dark until he was caught.

[eqfan592]

38. So is your argument that because most people won't get a license...

...to carry that we shouldn't have a license to carry available in the first place? Sorry, but I find that to be flawed reasoning to say the least. I don't know what "these people" you are talking about, but I was never foolish enough to believe that any folks were going to suddenly change on any fundamental level simply because a concealed carry law was passed. It's about providing people the right to make the choice to carry and have a more effective means of defense available to them.

You chose not to buy a firearm for defense, which is your right, but that does not mean that particular choice is the right choice for all people in all situations.

[HockeyMom]

40. It will do NO GOOD

You simply cannot understand the mindset and that is where you will fail. Same is true for Democrat versus Republican. You will fail if you cannot understand how 'THEY' think. You know even some Republicans even acknowledge this. It is not a matter of changing the "laws", be that abortion or gun control, you have to change hearts and minds. On that I will give them credit. Just passing laws will not change hearts and minds. That is what I meant by if you give a party (eliminate gun control) and nobody goes to the "party".

[eqfan592]

64. I'm sorry, but you are really not making yourself overly clear.

Are you implying that there is not popular support for concealed carry nation wide?

Also, given that I once was NOT in favor of concealed carry, I do have a decent understanding of the mindset behind many who feel that way. And believe me when I say that I do try and have succeeded at changing the minds of many people on this particular issue. They may not themselves carry (though some actually have decided to do so) but they no longer oppose giving people the option to do so.

[petronius]

67. I think you're missing the point of pro-RKBA arguments - nobody is pushing to encourage

anyone to own or carry firearms, the only goal is to preserve the right for those who wish to do so to have the choice. How many people ultimately go to the party is irrelevant.

As for your contention that 'big city people' in general won't be willing to step in to aid another when able, frankly I think that is as shallow and insulting a stereotype as the anti-rural bias we so often see around here (but I guess turn-about is fair play)...

[one-eyed fat man]

71. Yep, you typify New York

There was a video of some poor guy who got himself stabbed trying to help a woman who was being assaulted.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/24/hugo-alfredo-tale-yax-doz_n_550854.html

People had cell phones, they took pictures of him dying on the sidewalk. Not a one of those sophisticated, urbane, and self-serving big city slimebags could be bothered to dial 911. Over an hour and a half, twenty-five people walked past or stepped over him as he lay dying. Even the woman whose life he likely saved didn't bother call for help.

The only guy who stopped and bent down like he was going to give him aid, just rifled the dying man's pockets.

"They just don't understand the mindset of big city people."

Bullshit! We understand perfectly. We know callous cowards and heartless bastards when we see them.

[gejohnston]

76. makes my glad that I am

raised as a backwater yahoo, redneck, hick, hayseed, etc.

[Hoyt]

5. What do you propose -- passersby pulling guns and blasting away while shaking nervously?

If the guy had wanted to help (which he should have), he would have found a way. I don't think promoting more and more gun toting will accomplish anything positive, other than enriching those who make money off guns.

[LAGC]

6. Well, the passerby could hold the perp at gun-point until police arrive.

Far more crimes are prevented by NOT firing a shot, just by brandishing a firearm and waiting for police to arrive and take over.

[Hoyt]

10. So let's arm every Tom, Dick and Cheney. You can find a way to stop such a crime w/o gun.

I don't think arming more people will help.

[LAGC]

14. Really? How would you stop, say, someone with a knife from raping a woman?

And we wonder why people are afraid to intervene...

[Hoyt]

20. Really? -- would you pull your gun and shoot as the rapist puts a knife to her throat.

I'd suggest you have better options than forcing the criminal to defend himself against your gun. One can actually intervene without a gun, unless you just want to be a cowboy and ultimate outcome is of little concern to you.

[gejohnston]

25. say what?

First what is your issue with cowboys?

I'd suggest you have better options than forcing the criminal to defend himself against your gun
laser sight comes to mind

One can actually intervene without a gun,
If he has a knife, you better have a gun or be very skilled with a knife yourself.

unless you just want to be a cowboy
as someone who grew up in the west and have relatives and ancestors who are cowboys, that is stupid. Please read.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cowboy
http://www.thewildwest.org/

and ultimate outcome is of little concern to you.
Same could be same about you. I think you made his point.

[Hoyt]

30. LMAO. You're going to use laser and put a bullet in few square inches that women doesn't shield?

A dang good reason I'm against cowboys carrying guns in public. That's almost as good/ridiculous as the guy who talked about training to "dodge and shoot" in a crowd.

"Cowboy" = overconfident/underprepared would be "hero" in 21st Century. Sorry, but don't have room to type latter.

[gejohnston]

34. who said anything about putting a bullet anywhere?

Sex offenders and bullies are basically cowards. Most likely you would have the upper torso to aim for, three square feet at close range, but he is more likely to say oh shit and take off.
Real world is not TV cop shows.

[Hoyt]

39. GE -- rapists likely have their pants down and appendage out. Just kick the shit out of em.

That's the way to stop a coward, without hurting anyone else, and having a bunch of unprepared guys walking around with their laser sighted guns in public.

You are the one that said you could use your laser sighted gun to stop them. I don't believe in carrying guns in public, so you are the one with the cop show, cowboy mentality. You are the one acting like a cowboy cop with your laser gun.

[gejohnston]

42. I thought you said he had a knife.

Based on demographics, he is half my age, in better shape, and armed with a knife. Kick the shit out of him my ass. Mace him and get a big tree branch and beat the shit out of him maybe. Public policy should not be based on personal feelings, that is what conservatives do. The standard for liberals is individual freedom unless overwhelming compelling interest requires the state to stand in.

[Hoyt]

45. So, is he fiddling with his knife while raping the poor lady? Kick his ass -- Or use.

Mace, tree branch, rock, whatever -- so why don't you rely on those rather than carrying laser sighted guns in public?

[gejohnston]

48. Who said I don't or wouldn't? You assume a lot but that said

I don't believe in fair play. Threat of overwhelming force sometimes the best, sometimes not. I really don't give a shit about your personal feelings.

[Katya Mullethov]

75. Would the cord from a laptop be acceptable ?

Technique is everything .

[lawodevolution]

37. Hoyt was educated by hollywood movies

Hoyt thinks that if you confront an attacker with a gun the attacker will grab the woman who is laying on the ground and hold a knife to her neck.

In reality the attacker is going to be scared out of his mind, not have the knife ready and not be able to lift the woman off the ground. The attacker will likely run away with his pants down.

[Hoyt]

41. You think you need a gun to scare anyone. I suggest these guys could have been handled better.

In fact, if they even knew another person saw them -- I bet my ass they'd run. But you point a gun at em, and they are more likely to look for another way out than running and getting shot in the back -- assuming you could even hit them.

You on the other hand would risk having to shoot in a situation that even if the rapist were on top of the lady, you might have hit her. But I forget, you guys have trained with silhouette targets and think you can squeeze off a few shots just like you practiced in front of your mirror. Get real, and try walking around without a gun.

[gejohnston]

43. you don't know human nature very well do you?

Do you actually think things through or just make shit up off the top of your head?

shooting in the back is murder unless you are a San Francisco cop shooting a brown teenager.

[Hoyt]

46. Then why do many permitted gun toters here advocate shooting unarmed teenager leaving scene of minor

car break in?

But yet, to keep a gun in your waistband, you'll promote lax restrictions on guns in public.

[gejohnston]

49. what unarmed teenager?

There is a difference between stating a fact and advocating for that. I don't put anything in my waistband, and yeah I do promote over turning absurd laws that do nothing.

[Hoyt]

56. I was posting about another thread where some of our gunners advocate shooting unarmed teenagers who

broke into an unoccupied car and were leaving the scene. You may be the most responsible, sensible gun carrier in the world -- but there are a lot with permits who ought not even be allowed to own a gun, much less carry one in public.

[friendly_iconoclast]

81. "another thread"- which for some mysterious reason, is not linked to.

I suspect that "thread" is of a piece with your (self-proclaimed) extensive experience with weapons.


I must admit that you're consistent, Hoyt.

Never any evidence, save your own posts. It's almost reassuring, in some obscure way...

[HockeyMom]

52. At 17 my daughter had a restraining order against a boy she had dated

Long story, but he treatened to shoot her in retaliation. Yes, he and his father had an arsenal of guns. We had all been in their house and knew that.

So this kid comes to the house one day, yelling at my daughter. My stupid gun toting husband immediately went for his gun and wanted to go outside to confront him. Problem #1. The kid was on the street in front of our house. Public, not private property. He did not say he was armed. With all of this, my husband had NO RIGHT to go out there brandishing a gun to threaten him. I called the cops and my daughter from her window talked him into going a away before the cops got there. My macho husband never got to use his gun.

Again, under these circumstances my HUSBAND would have been liable, not that kid, if somebody had been shot.

[Hoyt]

55. Glad it worked out OK -- and without resorting to a shootout.

[HockeyMom]

44. Just fighting back, and using whatever means possible

will scare the hell of them. That happend to me when a robber with a knife took the cash from the register and then came towards me. I threw the stream iron at him and screamed holy hell. Basically, I made a big commotion. I guess he expected me as a little, tiny, female teenager to be terrified of him. Exactly the opposite. I was FURIOUS at him to coming at ME. Didn't care about the money.

You can use your guns as your tool to scare a perp, but it isn't necessary. Street smarts 101 which I learned very young in NYC. Don't ACT like a victim. You don't need a gun to not act like a victim. BTW, I was a 19 year old, 5'1", 98 lb female WITHOUT a gun, but you are going to have HELL TO PAY if you mess with me. I think he got that message because he ran out of that store.

Attitude. You either have it or you are CLUELESS.

[Hoyt]

47. +10000. Wish others here felt that way.

[eqfan592]

66. Many here do to a large degree.

You just don't understand that simply because a person carries a gun doesn't mean they think the gun is the only solution to every problem they may come across. You WOULD understand this if you hadn't made a conscious decision to maintain a twisted view of those who carry a firearm legally.

[eqfan592]

65. While it is very true that you don't need a firearm to not act like a victim...

...to imply that attitude alone will discourage most criminals is somewhat wrongheaded. I'll agree that a gun isn't ALWAYS necessary, but there are times where it may very well be, and I'd rather be prepared for those times than not.

[friendly_iconoclast]

73. What kind of "attitude" did Kitty Genovese have? Or the Central Park rape victim?

We won't ever know, as one is dead and the other cannot remember the incident.

I daresay one can become a victim even if you have the proper 'attitude'.



I thought that the idea that 'spirit', or 'elan', or 'attitude' will always carry the day died in the trenches of World War 1.

It seems I was wrong...

[Kennah]

83. How do you explain the increase in carriers with a decrease in crime?

Start of 1987 - 10 Right To Carry States

Today, with Wisconsin, I believe it's now 41 Right To Carry States.

Best guestimate was fewer than 1 million carriers at the start of 1987.

Today there are 4 to 5 million.

More people carrying guns in public, but crime is down.

[rrneck]

7. If the perp thought he'd get shot it wouldn't have happened. nt

[Hoyt]

32. Appears perps picked a lonely spot, they weren't concerned with getting shot.

If they were, they'd just arm themselves and shoot any potential victim first -- long before you or anyone else would have a chance to respond.

[rrneck]

58. How do you know that?

That's the problem with this crystal ball stuff. Nobody really knows what will happen. They will only know if they don't have what they need when they need it.

Better to err on the side of caution for individuals and individual liberty in that sort of situation.

[X_Digger]

60. Rapist != Necrophiliac..

Rape is a crime of power, not sex. Most rapists want to see their victims experiencing fear. Kind of hard to do with a corpse.

Do you even think about the things you write before you hit 'post message'?

[rrneck]

98. Thst makes no sense whatsoever.

Did a squirrel run across your keyboard?

[one-eyed fat man]

8. Are you a turn the radio up kinda guy?

[Hoyt]

11. Like I said -- one can find a way to stop something like that without gun.

You probably don't even have an idea how to handle situations because I bet you haven't been out of your house without a gun in years. Probably one of those guys who sleep and shower with one close by.

[SteveM]

18. At a moment's notice? You still haven't suggested a way in this thread. nt

[MicaelS]

A person should not have to risk their life

To even the odds for some criminal. That's why the gun has been called the "the Great Equalizer."

[Hoyt]

23. A gunner could still be risking their life, and likely that of the ultimate victim and innocents.

I'd find another way to help than a gun, which most people would be walking around with everyday of their life without encountering the situation presented in the OP.

[one-eyed fat man]

27. What a hoot!!!

Every month when I go out to salute the mailbox, I will revel in the fact that YOU are still paying me for carrying a gun so you wouldn't have to.

[Hoyt]

31. How long ago was that? Military training - while laudable - doesn't prepare one for situations like

we are discussing. Surely, you are not suggesting that?

[one-eyed fat man]

84. Let me see if I understand you

By military training are you talking marksmanship? Or do you have a clue? It is possible that in two trips to Viet Nam I might have had some practical experience you do not consider? I got recalled to active duty in 1991 to go play in the sand. Since you are so fond of the cowboy analogy, what makes you think this is my first rodeo?

I may not have had to kill anyone in twenty years, do you think I have forgotten how?

Or do you think I do not know the law in my state well enough to know when the use of force, up to and including deadly force, is justified...or, more important, when it IS NOT?

[DWC]

89. I did not know ignorance could shine so brightly

You have absolutely no idea what military veterans have trained for, are prepared for, and have up close and personal experience in doing.

You can bet your sweet a** we are better prepared for situations like this than you ever will be.

Semper Fi,

[oneshooter]

93. Lets go play in the mud, and you can tell the others what I have forgotten. n/t

[oneshooter]

105. No reply? Must be unsure of himself. n/t

[Euromutt]

36. So how come incidents like the one in the OP happen?

Or the murder of Kitty Genovese, as mentioned elsewhere in this thread?

Of course there are ways to intervene in crimes in progress without the use of a firearm. Nobody is actually suggesting there aren't. But in practice, a great number of people are afraid to intervene--even to the extent of not wanting to be seen dialing a cell phone or running to a phone booth--because they're afraid the offender will respond by directing violence at them.

If I understand correctly, there's evidence (albeit non-scientific) that private citizens who carry are less afraid to intervene because they know that, if the offender does turn on them, they won't be defenseless. It doesn't mean they're incapable of intervening in a manner that doesn't involve a firearm, but it does mean they're less afraid "to get involved."

Yeah, isn't that something? Apparently, "toters" don't live their lives in fear. At least, less so than non-toters. Hell, my friends think I'm civic-minded because I'll call 911 to report things that aren't a threat to me or my loved ones.

[Remmah2]

9. Fail; Bad assumption.

"blasting away while shaking nervously".

Personally this would be a great application for a bayonet, and no shots would be fired either.

[Hoyt]

13. Why I carry a machete.

[Remmah2]

19. Are you concessing to being a hack?

:)

Pike poles!

[S_B_Jackson]

21. Openly or concealed?

Are you in compliance with your state's statutes regarding the carring of deadly weapons?

[Hoyt]

24. Typically-- machete strapped to my back, spear guns in both hands, & Bowie knife strapped to leg.

I've never understood why people look at me strangely and police stop me.

[Remmah2]

85. Trust us.

It has nothing to do w/the knives.

[X_Digger]

15. How about..

Yelling, "Get the fuck away from that child!" while putting your hand on your concealed carry gun. If they stand up and start to advance on you rather than running away, present the gun, and fire.

But in your world, Hoyt, nobody's carrying anything with the ability to stop two men from pounding you into the dirt and then going back to raping the child.

[DWC]

26. Actually, this happened in Australia

Where defensive hand guns have been confiscated by the government. The Bad Guys KNOW their victims and bystanders do not have the tools necessary for self defense. You can't fake it in a place like that.

Australia has become "easy pickings" for violent criminals. Hoyt and a few other DU antis really should consider relocating Down Under.

Semper Fi,

[TPaine7]

28. "Why don't you leave that kid alone and come take on a man, PUNK!"

Something calculated to:

1) Distract and distance him from the victim
2) Give you a clear shot if necessary

Downside: You must appear unarmed until he is committed to attacking you. Your draw MUST beat the knife wielder's charge and you have to get solid hits fast. But playing on his ego can effectively take the victim out of danger.

I think fake machismo is a legitimate tactic in a case like this. Deceit, unfair advantage, and many other tactics are perfectly legitimate when dealing with a rapist or murderer.

[X_Digger]

33. I have no intention of playing fair..

..with someone who's already broken the social contract we all live under.

[HockeyMom]

50. Some of you need to take Criminal Law 101

If the prep has a knife and you have a gun and shoot him, YOU are going to be the one going to jail. Force has to be met with equal force. An unarmed or knife welding criminal will be no match for somebody with a gun. If the person with the gun shoots and kills the aforementioned, the GUN TOTING "Victim" will be the one goin going to fail.

You not only need to eliminate all gun control, you need to elminatate ALL LAWS too.

[Katya Mullethov]

51. Not all laws need eliminating

Just your imaginary ones .

A knife is more than a match for a gun , and there is much tactical and legal precedent in both regards .

[HockeyMom]

53. Watch Faux

There was just a case where a knife toting burglar was shot by a store owner. The store owner is now going to jail. Of course, Faux didn't like this once.

[Katya Mullethov]

59. It was a rather complicated and abstract a topic

He did not get in trouble for shooting someone with a knife , or using overwhelming force . Perhaps more research might be in order on your part .

[HockeyMom]

62. When we had that attempted robbery in our house,

the cops told my husband if he was going to shoot a burglar to KILL not wound him. Dead men don't tell tales is actually what they said. The NYPD told him that HE could be brought up on charges with just a wounded perp. I would hope the cops would know at thing or two about the LAW?

Again, didn't come to that because I scared the burglar away before he got inside by pushing out our window fan on to him. My husband couldn't get his gun out in time. NYPD laughed when I told them that. Big macho husband was embarrassed over that. He didn't even want me to tell the cops that. Of course, you won't hear THESE stories from the NRA. Maybe MORE of these stories need to be told, not just the 85 year old defends with a gun type NRA ones.

[gejohnston]

63. I would hope so too, does NY have castle doctrine or duty to retreat?

It sounds like the latter. A wounded perp is not going to call the cops or show up at an ER because the docs will call the cops, so a living man won't be telling any tales either.

[Euromutt]

91. New York state does have a "duty to retreat"

Or at least, it used to in the 1990s, and knowing NYS, that means it almost certainly still does.

[Katya Mullethov]

70. So you dont want to talk about the pharmacist anymore ?

I can certainly understand why not .

[PavePusher]

77. Sorry, not buying it.

If a police officer tells you to do something illegal, IT'S STILL ILLEGAL. REPORT THEM.

[PavePusher]

79. Cite, please. n/t

[gejohnston]

86. what are the details?

was the burglar running away or surrendering? Was this in Canada where the store owner is getting hit with unsafe storage? Did this take place in a duty to retreat state? Was the store owner convicted of anything? All of those details and more matter. But then, you were watching Faux, the only cable channel that has a convicted felon (G. Gordan Liddy) hawking gold.

[X_Digger]

54. Codswallop and Utter Bullshit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soZT__WQKsM

There is no law that says you have to match means of attack. Once you're past lethal force (could be a knife, could be a 2x4 swinging at your head, could be a rock in someone's hand), lethal response is justified.

Even unarmed attack may justifiably warrant a lethal response. It's called disparity of force, dear. If a 200+lb man is attacking a 125lb woman with fists, she is justified in shooting him.

If a reasonable person would apprehend imminent threat of grave injury or death, lethal force is warranted.

[PavePusher]

78. You seem to think a knife is not a lethal weapon.

You are wrong, of course.

And so is your "going to jail" assumption. There is no legal requirement to meet force only with equal or lesser force. If there were, you could cite to it, and you can't.

[TPaine7]

80. If that isn't sarcasm, you need to repeat "Intro to Earth Society" on the mothership. n/t

[tortoise1956]

82. Actually, that's not quite true...

Link to New York state self-defense laws:

http://selfdefenses.com/forcespray/SD-law.html

as you can see, you can use deadly physical force in many circumstances, including preventing the commission of a rape.

With that said, I understand your feelings on the subject, and have no desire to force you to carry a weapon. At the same time, I am strongly against the state forcibly disarming citizens and violating the second amendment in the name of safety. My experience in the half century-plus I've been here is that the state rarely spends as much time protecting people as it does attempting to control their actions.

That applies to all political parties, in my opinion. The only difference is who they choose as their favorites...which are mostly the ones with the most money to give them.

[HockeyMom]

87. The ex-boyfriend on the street and the burglar not inside the house

would not be considered an immediately threat of physical harm. You couldn't shoot either one of them. Excuse me but isn't it better to keep them from getting on the property or inside the house in the first place? I even said that to my husband at the time. What were you going to do? Sit there with your loaded gun and wait until he got inside the house? That is really STUPID. That sounds like you are just itching for a confrontation.

[gejohnston]

88. Please help me out here

The ex-boyfriend on the street and the burglar not inside the house would not be considered an immediately threat of physical harm. You couldn't shoot either one of them.

I think it is safe for me to assume all of us agree on that. Are you not assuming the same and thinking we agree with your husband? Are you venting about issues you have with husband? Please clarify.

[one-eyed fat man]

100. She has been talking bad about her husband for ages.

She has castigated him in these fora for dragging her away from her beloved New York to the dismal backwater of Flori-DUH.

Where, she assures us, she can walk into any Wal-Mart and buy a handgun for $100 no questions asked.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=433461&mesg_id=433477

She did come clean once, "Count me in as a LIAR."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=433461&mesg_id=433477

She talks about him as being fat and a slug on the couch. As much dislike as she exhibits toward the man you would think she'd leave him. She either must need the meal ticket or is worried he'd be singing this if she left.

[Katya Mullethov]

101. I had considered broaching just that very subject

I liked this one , mostly for the copper ephemera .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQ5ob9B9yD4
Those galvanized milk cans will certainly impart an off taste , so don't try this at home kids .
Ironically enough , there's a few revenuers singing this song right now .

[tortoise1956]

97. I would agree with you under those circumstances...

If there is no direct threat, and you are not acting to prevent one of the crimes mentioned in the statutes, then you would be breaking the law by using a firearm. My post was in reference to the situation where a rape was in progress, which IS one of the circumstances in the law that would justify using deadly force.

Please don't take this personally, because it's not meant to be, but based on your posts - I'm sure you love your husband, but he doesn't sound like someone I would want to be around when he has a gun in his hands. It almost sounds like he's a poster child for gun control...

[Euromutt]

90. Utterly and completely wrong; the distinction is whether the force is lethal or not

More precisely, what justifies the use of deadly force in self-defense is that the person applying it had a reasonable belief that the assailant had the ability to inflict permanent injury or death on his victim. Any bladed or bludgeoning implement wielded as a weapon crosses that line, be it a knife, baseball bat, lug wrench (sometimes incorrectly referred to as a "tire iron"), pitchfork, what have you. Hell, there's been one instance in which a guy beat his ex-girlfriend's mother to death with a TV tray table.

There are also instances where a sufficiently large disparity of force exists between assailant and victim that the assailant(s) may be deemed to have possessed potentially lethal force even though unarmed. Examples include an adult assaulting a small child, an able-bodied younger person assaulting a senior citizen, and incidents where the assailants outnumbers the victim(s) by three to one or more.

The bottom line is, when threatened with an amount of force (that you reasonably believe is) sufficient to inflict permanent injury or death, you're justified in using deadly force in response (provided other conditions are met, not pertaining to the nature of the force used). You're perfectly entitled to use a firearm against someone threatening you with a knife, a baseball bat, etc.

[one-eyed fat man]

103. Able-bodied younger person assaulting a senior citizen.

There is one bit of folk wisdom that applies there!

"Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he's too old to fight, he'll just shoot you."

http://www.sptimes.com/2007/06/29/State/Dateline_Florida.shtml

Robbery victim turns tables

Two masked gunmen apparently picked the wrong sandwich shop to rob. John Lovell, a 71-year-old retired Marine, was finishing his meal when two robbers came into the Plantation sub shop. After robbing the cashier, the men tried to shove Lovell into a bathroom and rob him as well, the Miami Herald reported. They got his money, but then Lovell pulled out his handgun and opened fire, shooting one of the thieves in the head and chest and the other in the head. One of the men died; the other was reported to be in critical but stable condition.

[one-eyed fat man]

99. You have never been in a REAL knife fight.

Gun vs Knife debate. “Gun People” argue that “you don’t bring a knife to a gunfight”. They say the gun is an equalizer because a person of any age, size or disability can defeat someone of superior size, strength and number. “Knife people” argue the blade never needs reloading and is often times more lethal on a stab vs single shot basis.

The knife is an offensive weapon by nature, you have to make contact, slash and stab to make it work. As such there is always going to be an athletic component to its use. The elderly or disabled are just not going to be able to employ a knife in the same manner as a fit and athletic youth.

The problem with ANY weapon is who has the intent and initiative! Assuming the guy with the knife initiates the attack, he can be a 300 pound tub of lard and cross 21 feet faster than you can realize you are under attack.

Another difference that many discount is that when someone pulls a gun they often do it with the expectation that mere show of force is enough to intimidate. The homeowner confronting a burglar who thinks the sight of a gun will automatically cause burglar to flee or freeze.

By contrast, an assailant using a knife rarely bluffs. When a knife gets pulled it is a lot more likely somebody is getting cut. The knife has the advantage of stealth. Depending on the attacker's skill, the victim will not see the knife until it's too late do no more than gently gurgle as he expires.

The results of a fit and trained off-duty cop trying to disarm a disturbed man with a knife are shown below. I wonder how a skinny, old harridan whose luck has run out would look after such an encounter?

[Glassunion]

104. You are right. Some of us do need to take Criminal Law 101.

1. "If the prep has a knife and you have a gun and shoot him, YOU are going to be the one going to jail."
This is not true. In the two instances outlined in the OP, deadly force with a firearm would be justified here in the US.

To the first instance of the rape, according to NY state law, deadly force is justified in the case. NY State Penal Law Article 35-15(2): A person may not use deadly physical force upon another person under circumstances specified in subdivision one unless:Article 35-15(2)(b): He reasonably believes that such other person is committing or attempting to commit a kidnapping, forcible rape, forcible sodomy or robbery;

To the second instance of the stabbing, I will point you at the same law where deadly force would be justified. NY State Penal Law Article 35-15(2): A person may not use deadly physical force upon another person under circumstances specified in subdivision one unless:Article 35-15(2)(a): He reasonably believes that such other person is using or about to use deadly physical force.

2. "Force has to be met with equal force. An unarmed or knife welding criminal will be no match for somebody with a gun."
No it does not. There is not one single law in this entire nation that states that you must meet deadly physical force with the exact same deadly physical force. If a criminal is coming at you with a knife, you can meet that force with whatever force you wish, be it a knife, rock, paper, scissors, gun, stick, bat, etc... The idea is a bit complicated if you state it is fact. Think about it. Let's say that someone comes at you with a bat, but you have a rock, what are the rules? Which force is greater? Would you be justified using the rock against someone with a bat? What if a criminal comes at you with a stick and you have a stick, but your stick is bigger and heavier? What if a bad guy is coming at you with a .22 and you are carrying a .38? Should you use the rock or the stick at that point?

An unarmed or knife welding criminal would indeed be no match for somebody with a gun. That's the point. To get them to stop, one way or another, you stop them. If an unarmed criminal is raping my wife by overpowering her, and he is much larger and fit than I am, do I have a duty to not use my firearm and battle him with my hands? Or should I just wait for him to finish and go on his merry way because I physically cannot stop him?

[SteveM]

17. Actually, merely the display of a gun is sufficient.

[RSillsbee]

68. You don't shake until after it's all over NT

Well you might. I didn't I puked my guts out after words though

[ileus]

22. Isin't it better to get raped or murdered than be impolite and use a weapon against an attacker?

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jpak]

57. This is Australia - and has nothing to do with the stupid GOP/NRA Amerika gun agenda

Gungeon Fail

yup

[X_Digger]

61. This is the society that is held up as the exemplar, jpak.

Why don't you want to own up to the consequences that your ideas would promote?

[jpak]

69. Pure unadulterated GOP/NRA BS

:rofl:

[friendly_iconoclast]

74. Some will remember the poster that kept harping about Australia's "fine society"

..and how the US needed to follow its example(s), especially its gun laws.


Said poster was an excellent example of the old adage "the converts always sing the loudest in church", and soon got a well-earned

pizza...

[jpak]

92. Horseshit

yup

[friendly_iconoclast]

94. Tsk,tsk . And you with a donor star:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=132790#132791

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=137166#137363

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=139442#139577

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=139442#139577

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=139442#139936

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=139442#139704

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=139442#139937

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=263881

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=157920#158131

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=157920#158133

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=218136#218251

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=336873#337146

This last one's my favorite, naturally:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=268677

[petronius]

95. Huh. I just noticed the other day (in a thread on another topic) that I

hadn't noticed that poster for a while. Wonder what the TS was for...

[ileus]

72. Rape, murder and robberies are a small price to pay for a gun free society...

[Katya Mullethov]

96. You betcher ass

As long as it's YOUR ass .

[Peter1x9]

102. When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

n/t