1.1 million gun background checks done in July. On target for 18.3 million in 2011

[Logical]

At least 1.1 million guns sold in July! It was the biggest July in history!

Maybe more, because some background checks equal more than one gun sold. And many states do not require background checks for CCW license holders. This also does not count private sales that bypass the NICS system.

More armed Americans than ever and the crime and murder rate continues to fall!

And now Illinois is the only state does does now allow CCW. This means Wisconsin citizens now will be able to defend themselves against criminals who will always find a way to obtain gun illegally!

Once us Democrats stop fighting this, the sooner the GOP and NRA can stop using it against us!

[Blown330]

1. I wonder when...

...that whole backlash non-sense is going to kick in? Seems the "dying" gun industry isn't so sickly either.

[spin]

2. Now if only the rest of the economy was having such success. (n/t)

[adhd_what_huh]

3. hand guns are stupid....just ask a cop. Crime is down because our prison population is up.

[hack89]

4. I never ask cops about civil rights.

I know they are not on my side.

[Logical]

5. +1000

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[oneshooter]

6. Hand guns are mechanical devices, how can they be stupid? n/t

[TheWraith]

7. Please, please, tell me you're being sarcastic.

I would think you'd have to be... but then I know there are people who are honestly that clueless.

[adhd_what_huh]

18. not joking and not stupid. If I had a handgun I would be more

likely to have it used in an accident involving me or someone close to me rather than in some sort of fantasy self defense scenario.

[slackmaster]

21. I support your right and your decision to not own a handgun

As long as you respect my rights and my choices, we'll get along fine.

[adhd_what_huh]

32. Your right to own a semi-auto hand gun is stupid...but not as

stupid as your desire to actually own the damn thing and keep it your home with children. I do not care if we are fine.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

36. I own a number of them...

and I do so among other reasons because I care about my child.

It isnt like they just leap out of the holster and go off on their own.

You do as you wish, but your fears are not grounded in anything resembling reality.

[PavePusher]

40. So, you are not stupid... but we are...

even when the statistical evidence is on our side?

For the love of fuck....

[TheWraith]

22. No, that's a complete myth. Two complete myths, actually.

It's based on one bullshit study that has been debunked about a hundred times. Even by simple math: the lowest estimates anyone has produced for defensive uses of a gun stands at 250,000 per year. In comparison, the number of serious firearms accidents stands in the hundreds per year.

Furthermore, the idea that more people in prison equals less crime is also bullshit-based. Scientific studies have shown no evidence that longer sentences affect crime rates. For many reasons, but the simplest one is that almost no one commits a crime expecting to get caught, so the length of punishment is not a disincentive. Other countries where they have far lower crime rates also have far fewer prisoners. What we've primarily managed to accomplish with our prison system is the mass incarceration of young black men. If you think that that has lowered our crime rate, then I have a bridge to sell you.

[krispos42]

26. Nonetheless, if they're in jail they're not out committing crimes.

There's a chapter in "Freakonomics" about this.

I agree 100% that the prison-industrial complex and the drug laws are to cause for most of our prison problems.

[TheWraith]

28. Yeah--but most of the people who commit violent crimes are "disposable."

By which I mean, most violent crimes--at least, the large majority of murders--are the result of gang wars over the drug trade.

I know you know this, I'm just elaborating on it for the audience.

The guys who go to prison for that are mostly desperately poor, low-level young men with no other options. They're then quickly replaced by other desperate, impoverished young men with no other options. The fastest brake on that cycle is mandatory education in prison (a prisoner who gets a GED is 50% less likely to be reincarcerated; a college diploma means almost zero chance of reincarceration), and available jobs.

Oh, and of course, ending the drug war in order to starve the gangs of financing would help too.

[krispos42]

29. Well, the thing is that people don't just jump into murder.

At least, not typically. It's an increasingly violent process. If you put the guy that robbed a 7-Eleven or stole a car in jail for a long time, he's not working towards the big step into murder or attempted murder until much later. But if you give them six months or a year, they're basically back out before the landscape has changed much and drop right back into the groove.

[adhd_what_huh]

31. at least that is what the NRA claimes....right.

[gejohnston]

37. no DoJ and

a University of Florida study about 13 studies similar to them, including ones that tried to counter/debunk them. The NRA repeats it because it serves their purpose, but it does not change the fact that it did not from them. Nor does it change the fact that those who did the studies dislike the NRA.

[PavePusher]

41. Feel free to cite your evidence... n/t

[SteveM]

24. "more likely:" Do you have any data or cites to show this? Thanks.

[ManiacJoe]

33. I have no reason to doubt his personal assessment.

However, he is probably trying to quote the long-debunked Kellerman "study".

[SteveM]

38. Well, I ask these things in hopes of finding something new. sigh. nt

[rl6214]

30. WOW, a lot of self confidense you have there.

Have you ever fired a gun? Really, they are not that scary.

[ileus]

34. or would you use it a lot at the range? Like I do mine?

[We_Have_A_Problem]

35. If you're basing that belief...

...upon the utterly discredited Kellerman study, you're doing yourself a severe disservice.

If you wish not to own one, that is your choice. If your sole reasoning is what you stated, then it is a fear based in nothing.

[PavePusher]

39. Then I sugest some proper training.

Do you drive? If so, you operate a vehicle vastly more complicated and with more controls, many magnitudes more kinetic and potential energy, and with a higher death-per-population rate than firearms. Your kids are far more likely to be killed in or by a car than with a gun.

[digonswine]

15. Rates of violence are subject to many sociological factors-

stop being so sure of yourself.

Don't know what you don't know--only know what you know.

[adhd_what_huh]

19. you just said nothing.

[Union Scribe]

20. No, he typed it.

Unless he has some voice-to-text software running.

In any case, it was a fair bit better than "ask a cop," lol. By the way, when I do that, should I pretend he DOESN'T have one of those "stupid handguns" on his hip?

[SteveM]

23. Well, I guess my hand gun IS stupid; but that is irrelevant....

Since I have it for self-defense purposes.

Actually, a number of cops I have talked with have no problem with civilians keep arms for self-defense.

The reasons for the crime rate drop is multi-faceted, no one knows for sure. Certainly we have bulging prisons, and by using a sloppy shotgun approach, we have picked up many slobber-dripping thugs along with vast numbers of non-violent criminals. But there has been over 35 years of legal abortion, which could have cut down on unwanted (and subsequently badly cared-for) children, the concentration on HyperPunks (those with a predilection for engaging in deadly violence) by LEOs, the institutionalization of crack cocaine sales zones (which has cut down on territorial violence), and longer sentences for violence-prone thugs. Hell, maybe some crims have decided to get a legit job and gotten out of thuggery.

One thing is for sure: The notion that "more guns = more crime" has not been proven.

[krispos42]

27. Abortions

The authors of "Freakonomics" argue that legalized abortion in 1973 (and a bit sooner for some states) led to the gutting of the future generation of violent criminals, as those that would have been born into situations were criminal careers were likely were instead aborted. Crime began dropping in 1990 or so, so it's a defensible position. Few gangs of violent teenagers roaming the streets = less violence.

[aka-chmeee]

8. Gets more dangerous to be an innocent bystander everyday. nt

[X_Digger]

11. Is that danger real or imagined?

The shooting of an innocent bystander by a license holder is rarer than hen's teeth. Do you have some figure that would lead a reasonable person to believe that such incidents are statistically significant?

[digonswine]

9. I am not against guns-but-

Inferring that more armed citizens causes a drop in crime and murder rates is not supportable. I agree about dropping this as a talking point-we could get many more from the dark side on this issue--I think.

[gejohnston]

10. no one said that

It is refuting the more guns equals more guns meme.

[digonswine]

12. I may be thick-could you explain?

[X_Digger]

13. We often get folks claiming that the inevitable result..

of more guns will be more crime (or gun crime).

The FBI's UCR, and DOJ's BJS dispute that purported correlation- violent crime, and gun use in crime have both dropped.

That, however, doesn't mean that someone is endorsing 'more guns = less crime'. Just that the two aren't necessarily connected.

[digonswine]

14. Gotya--thanks--

I am reminded of a TED talk by Steven Pinker about the decline of violence.


http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/steven_pinker_on_the_myth_of_violence.html

I don't know if that is a working link--I am quite new to this!

[X_Digger]

16. Yup, works just fine.. and welcome to DU. n/t

[SteveM]

25. In fact, I'm not convinced that the drop in crime is due to "more armed citizens."...

The jury is still out on that. But we can be sure of this: The notion that more guns = more crime is not proved, given what we know about crime statistics and the number of firearms now in the hands of civilians. Especially over the last 15+ years.