Gun incident (stupid open carry stunt) shows folly of N.H. laws

[jpak]

http://www.seacoastonline.com/articles/20110801-OPINION-108010314

A Portsmouth police detective was recently lauded for defusing a July 4 incident in which Stawbery Banke Museum officials asked a couple openly carrying pistols to leave a ceremony attended by the governor and a retired U.S. Supreme Court judge.

Praise cannot be offered to the New Hampshire lawmakers who legislated the right for citizens to openly carry guns. They are not alone, for the record, as only six states and the District of Columbia fully prohibit the open carry of handguns.

The state's gun laws overall are curious and questionable, as no license is required to openly carry a firearm while on foot, but a license is required to carry a loaded pistol or revolver in a motor vehicle, openly or concealed. And there is the ill-conceived state law approved by Republicans this past session that allows people to bring guns into the Statehouse complex.

Johnathon Irish and Stephanie Taylor of Epsom, despite a constitutional right, were wrong to openly bear arms at the naturalization ceremony for 105 new U.S. citizens, presided over by retired Supreme Court Justice David H. Souter and Gov. John Lynch.

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:thumbsup:

[ileus]

1. I can't seen to find where they started shooting people, or had a ND?

Seems like it's just more people being paranoid of citizens open carrying firearms.

[valerief]

2. Fearful people with good reason. Open-carry guns are a threat to our safety.

So are concealed weapons.

[TheWraith]

5. Except that reality proves you are wrong.

You're in more danger from crossing the street.

[valerief]

6. Don't forget the pit bulls, too. They come with the guns on the streets. nt

[gejohnston]

8. about pit bulls

how much is reality and how much is media hype? Like any other dog, it is nurture, not nature.

[spin]

21. Much depends on the breeder, the owner and the training ...

A pit bull from a good line who has a responsible owner that trains the dog properly will turn out to be a very gentle and reliable dog.

Many people who buy Pit Bulls want a fierce home defense dog and encourage aggressive behavior. This does not always work out well.

[YllwFvr]

51. I'm wary of the breed

My gf got one, it was sent to a dog trainer and behaved well enough. Then it bit me. I assumed it was because I was playing with it. Then it snapped at me and barely missed my hand, I heard is teeth click. It bit my brother, then it held my gfs head down and bit her face, scarring her lips.
The trainer doesn't understand. Its two, with no prior incidents until quite recently. Now we are afraid it will attack our daughter. For now is an outside dog, but I imagine we will put it down soon.

[TheWraith]

10. Would you like to try that again? With some kind of logical consistency? nt

[PavePusher]

16. WTF are you drinking? n/t

[SteveM]

24. So "guns don't kill people, pit bulls kill people?" Pleae explain. nt

[ileus]

40. dogs and primates both make me more nervous than OC firearms.

[spin]

15. Florida must be a very threatenting society ...

as currently there are 831,169 people who have concealed weapons permits that have been issued by the state of Florida. Since 1987 Florida has issued 2,012,301 licenses.

Strange that the facts do not back up your fears.

Since 1987 only 168 people have had their licenses revoked for a crime involving the use of a firearm. That doesn't mean that all those people shot someone without reason, had an accidental discharge or even intimidated someone by pointing a gun at them. While you do lose your license if you do any of those things, you can also lose your license for carrying your weapon into a restricted area.

source: http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/cw_monthly.html

Chicken Little, the sky is not falling.

[jpak]

41. Open carry is illegal in FL

fail

[X_Digger]

47. RIF - reading is fundamental..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x446634#446640

So are concealed weapons.

[spin]

48. Nope. Truly EPIC fail on your part ...

You can open carry when you are ...

(h) A person engaged in fishing, camping, or lawful hunting or going to or returning from a fishing, camping, or lawful hunting expedition;

or

(n) A person possessing arms at his or her home or place of business;

source: The 2010 Florida Statutes(including Special Session A) Chapter 790.25
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0790/Sections/0790.25.html

What Are the Gun Laws in Florida?
From NRAILA,

Caution: This summary is meant for general purposes only. Firearm laws frequently change and the following answers may not reflect changes in the laws.

***snip***

Carrying

Unless covered under the exceptions, it is unlawful to openly carry on or about the person any firearm, or to carry a concealed firearm on or about the person without a license.

Exceptions:

Persons having firearms at their home or place of business.

***snip***

Persons engaged in fishing, camping or hunting and while going to or from such activity.
http://crime.about.com/od/gunlawsbystate/p/gunlaws_fl.htm

Yup

[ileus]

22. When in reality neither are...

[RightNoMore]

73. yep, OC is from stupid left over laws from the 1880's

Only a fool would open carry in public. I guess a gun on your hip makes you feel like more of a man. Not much different then gang-bangers flashing their guns.

[HelenWheels]

3. Count me as paranoid of gun carriers. nt

[ileus]

23. you pistol, packing, paranoid....LOL

[SteveM]

26. Refreshing. 2A defenders are usually the ones accused of being "paranoid." nt

[spin]

35. In areas of the nation where open carry is unusual but legal...

it attracts negative attention.

In Florida open carry in public is not legal but concealed carry is. There is a movement to change the law to permit open carry. Even if such a law passed, I would continue to carry concealed unless I felt that open carry no longer intimidated people. If that ever happened I might consider it.

I should note that it is not all that unusual to see a store owner or a clerk open carrying a firearm in a store (which is legal in Florida). While this is common in a gun store, I have also witnessed it elsewhere. I remember a book, magazine and newspaper store in the Tampa Bay area where the owner carried a snub nosed S&W revolver in a holster on his belt. The store was within walking distance of my home.

I used to stop in that store on an almost daily basis after I left work. None of his customers that I witnessed ever appeared to show any concern about his revolver and he did have plenty of customers. I was the only customer that ever mentioned his handgun, I asked him if it was a S&W Model 642. It was. I was carrying the same weapon concealed at the time. I didn't bother to mention that.

You may be paranoid of gun carriers which I have no problem with, even though I consider your fear unwarranted. You could be standing right beside me in a check out line at a store and you would never suspect that I was carrying a firearm. To me, that resolves the problem. You are not intimidated and I am doing nothing illegal.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

46. Does that include LEO, retired LEOs, or military?

What if it was family or neighbors you are on good terms with?

[oneshooter]

52. Why are you afraid of holsters? n/t

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

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[PavePusher]

17. Ah, so Orwell was right after all.

"Some pigs is more equal..."

[ileus]

25. Or was it just sane citizens being protective of their OC rights in a public building...

[SteveM]

27. "Possible sign of insanity:" At least you suggest nuance/faux intellectualism

[SheilaT]

4. All the legisltors who believe in

open carry or even concealed carry, need to be willing to let said guns be carried anywhere, even inside courtrooms or on board airplanes.

Just imagine, if some of the passengers on those flights that were hijacked nearly ten years ago had only had guns with them. What would have been averted?

Do I need the sarcasm thingy?

[shraby]

7. Just maybe if they, the planes would have had numerous

bullet holes through the body of the plane causing them to go down in highly populated areas.

[PavePusher]

18. Really bad movie myth.

I've got 20+ years of military aviation maintenance experience. Your assertion is untrue.

[one-eyed fat man]

19. Back when postal regulations required pilots to be armed.

http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl?id=2001_3341305

When it was still the Post Office Department, postal regulations required the flight crew of any airplane carrying the mail to be armed. Back in those days, the pilot or co-pilot had to hand-carry the mail from the plane to the terminal.

So when a hijacker armed with a pistol commandeered an American Airlines DC-6 at the Cleveland Hopkins Airport on July 6, 1954, he was shot and fatally wounded by the captain.

After the Post Office was abolished in the seventies, the new Postal SERVICE, disarmed all its clerks and mail carriers. Regulations requiring pilots transporting mail were rescinded.

Oddly enough, the first instance of "going postal" did not occur until some 12 years after the Postal Service had removed all guns from its facilities.

It makes you wonder what the outcome might have been if the crews of American Airlines Flight 11 and Flight 77 had been armed like their fellow airmen had been in 1954.

[SteveM]

31. Your assertion, sarcasm aside, is based on a false assumption...

That open or concealed carry means ipso facto that guns can be carried anywhere.

Courtrooms/courthouses are excepted because this is where the state's authority is complete, where the state has armed guards, where decisions involving conflict and violence (hence court proceedings) are decided. As for planes, carry is prevented because those oft-mentioned "duty to retreat" arguments are rendered, well, up in the air.

BTW, one can take firearms into airports, check them in, then shipped in the luggage compartment below your feet. This has been the policy since vacuum tubes.

You didn't bring it up, but I think legislators are hypocritical when they are given a "right" (really privilege) to carry arms into areas (like schools grounds & property) which is not extended to the general population. That's the Diane Feinstein approach.

[SheilaT]

37. Exa ctly my point.

I understand that some state legislatures have not only passed laws allowing concealed carry but those laws do not allow various businesses -- and if I recall correctly, even churches -- to ban the carrying of weapons on their property.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander, I say. If concealed carry is okay in a bar or a dress shop or a church, then it's okay at an airport or in a courtroom.

I'm also a former airline employee, started work before any of the original security measures were put into place. And firearms brought into airports to be checked are supposed to arrive unloaded.

[GreenStormCloud]

60. You don't recall correctly.

Private business and churches can ban guns on their premises. The state merely says that carry in such places is permitted unless the owner forbids it. The state does not automatically forbid such carry but leaves it for the owner to make his own choice.

[SheilaT]

68. I'm quite certain that I have read

of laws being passed recently that do not exempt businesses from disallowing concealed carry. Perhaps I have misunderstood what I read.

[X_Digger]

70. I think you've conflated a few things into one..

Some states have removed statutory restriction on concealed carry in churches, places that serve alcohol, etc- therefore leaving it up to the owner / responsible party to set policy for the establishment. Owners are free to allow/disallow.

Other states have said that employers may not keep employees from storing firearms in the employees' private cars while on employers' parking lots, provided they are locked securely in a case.

[Hoyt]

42. Around here you do sarcasm thingy. Otherwise, gunners think you support arming up in public.

[oneshooter]

53. Show her the picture!!!! n/t

[GreenStormCloud]

59. Actually, it would have been a good idea. What's wrong with self-defense?

I suppose in your world sitting passively while your plane is used for a kamikaze run is better.

[Bonhomme Richard]

9. This was a stunt designed to create a controversy.

They are affiliated with Oath Keepers and have had a lot of press already.
http://crooksandliars.com/node/40688/print

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:kMVBqUFH-koJ:www.concordmonitor.com/article/220423/baby-returned-to-epsom-couple+Johnathon+Irish+and+Stephanie+Taylor+of+Epsom&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a&source=www.google.com

[MineralMan]

14. Good job in tracking that story down. The couple in question

appear to be not what some think they are. I believe they were there for the precise purpose of intimidation. Oath Keepers, indeed.

I cannot imagine why anyone would do an open carry demonstration at a naturalization ceremony. There is no explanation for it other than some sort of political statement. Firearms are not political statements. They have their uses and we have the right to bear them. Using them to make some sort of political point is not what they were designed for, to be quite frank.

[ileus]

29. it's not a political statement unless people let it be...OC should be more common

then everyone wouldn't get excited to see joe dick with a firearm on his side.

[MineralMan]

30. At a naturalization ceremony, it seems pretty stupid, to tell

you the truth. Unless you have some sort of political statement to make, and what statement could that possibly be? This couple are morons. The Oath Keepers are not our friends in any way. In reality, the only people who have a real interest in a naturalization ceremony are those participating and their families. Neither applies to the two OC demonstrators. Praise is not my reaction to them.

And I'm not, in any way, anti-firearms.

[Hoyt]

43. Well you are right in that it's mostly the "joe dicks" of the world that carry guns in public.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

44. Any other anti civil rights bigotry you want to get off your chest?

[Hoyt]

49. Guns in public have nothing to do with the real civil rights, no matter how much you try to appear

persecuted/oppressed for you irrational need to carry a gun or two in the 21st Century. In fact, it was jerks walking around with guns who denied a lot of people civil rights prior to the 1960s.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

50. Most of the jerks were police, not civilians

It was only when socialists and other "bad guys" like the Black Panthers started to do it that the white establishment cranked down on it in California. Typical classist and racist behaviors of the white elite...and typical of anti gun rights people even today.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

65. And it was a lot of others with guns

who protected those civil rights in the 60s.

The gun itself is neutral. How it is used may be right or wrong.

[oneshooter]

54. You have always told us that you don't carry!!! n/t

[SteveM]

32. I agree. Using arms this way is punk. But one good thing may come...

of it. All those newly-naturalized citizens will be reminded of their OWN constitutional right to keep and bear arms. In this manner, efforts at intimidation can be muted.

[GreenStormCloud]

61. I carry everywhere I go. I don't have a list of don't carry places.

So if I were to be going to any kind of ceremony I would be carrying. The reason is that I can't Star Trek style teleport from one place to another and I may go to other places both before and after the ceremony. So to cover all the bases, I will be legally armed.

[Bonhomme Richard]

11. This is just the sort of guy that shouldn't be allowed to own a firearm.

"It's an incredibly damning interview. John Irish describes his son as not just a child abuser but a wife abuser as well, a violent man with a vicious temper and an obsession with guns. Moreover, he is someone who lives off the government dole and yet belongs to one of the most noxious anti-government Patriot groups in the business"
http://crooksandliars.com/node/40688/print

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PavePusher]

20. Please, quote that part of the Constitution.

We'll wait...

[ileus]

28. Why not? The government is the people...

[We_Have_A_Problem]

33. Would you be so kind...

...as to identify which section of the Constitution grants government the authority to make such a thing illegal?

My copy seems to not have anything like that...

[Remmah2]

38. What was the "government" event?

Why are government employees considered more valuable than the average citizen?

[Mrs. Ted Nancy]

34. I'm not familiar with NH gun law

Does it allow people to openly carry guns onto private property w/o the consent of the property owner? I hope not.

I would think that businesses can prohibit people carrying guns into their buildings. The naturalization ceremony took place at the Stawbery Banke Museum which is private property.

I think the Stawbery Banke Museum officials were right to have those two people removed from the premises.

[X_Digger]

36. Yes, private property owners can deny entry to those carrying (open or concealed)..

However, that prohibition isn't assumed as the default. You don't have to ask permission of every private property owner that you visit, but you do have to abide by various forms of the 'no guns' sign.

[Mrs. Ted Nancy]

39. Thanks

I guess the museum will have to post a 'no guns' sign at the door.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

45. Business that have post no guns signs have suffered for it

It is not a position to be taken lightly in this economy

[Hoyt]

55. True, many gunners behave like TBaggers protesting some guy trying to run a decent business w/o guns

[S_B_Jackson]

56. I've never seen a business picketed over a "no guns" policy...

but I have seen several businesses get boycotted - even participated in them. So long as they have (legally) posted their property, I inform the manager or owner, that I won't spend a dime with them and will encourage my family and friends to do likewise. Nothing personal, but they're not providing a unique service or product, and I'll simply do business with a merchant who actually wants my custom.

[Hoyt]

62. Let em eat elsewhere -The 3 to 4% who can't leave home without a gun won't impact business too much.

I'd much rather cater to the 96% who can walk around in public without a gun or two. Non-carriers are much less likely to be a TBagger anyway.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

64. And perhaps...

...the small percentage that seems terrified of the mere possibility that a patron in the store may have a firearm on their person should also consider shopping elsewhere.

Or do you have a problem with that?

[S_B_Jackson]

66. They do....

and that 3-4% is the most vocal and assertive portion of the 34-45% of the adult population which owns firearms - and who often join in such boycotts.

Apparently the numbers of customer that these businesses lose is significant enough that most merchants determine that retention of anti-gun policies is not in their best interests.

More importantly, there is no evident that persons like yourself increase your patronage of establishments to a degree that they can continue cutting off their economic noses to spite their faces.

I know any number of CCW carriers who are as Democratic-blue as you would ever like to meet. Much as you might wish otherwise, gun ownership and a strong support for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms is not only a conservative, Republican, or TeaBagger principle.

[X_Digger]

67. Got a challenge for you, Hoyt..

Why don't you start only patronizing businesses with 'no guns' signs.

I'll start only patronizing businesses that *don't* post such signs.

Then let's list them as we visit, and we'll see who runs out of places first.

How's that?

I'll even start. I visited Best Buy during my lunch hour- no sign. After that, I hit up Saltgrass Steakhouse- no sign.

[Hoyt]

69. I think the laws should be written that no guns are allowed unless a sign specifically states

"This Establishment tolerates the 3 to 4% who feel it necessary to come into a public place with a gun or two strapped to their bodies. Just announce that to your host and he/she will sequester you in a sandbagged room where you can eat while playing with your guns until you are fully satisfied."

[X_Digger]

71. And I think rainbow-colored unicorns should fly out of Marisa Tomei's backside..

So, do you accept the challenge?

[We_Have_A_Problem]

72. You're free to feel that way...

...however, most of the nation does not agree with you.

I'm really sorry you have such a fear of inanimate objects.

[Hoyt]

74. If you can't leave home without a gun, I think you are the one living in irrational fear.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

77. Depends on where you live and your life experiences

Those with a fear of certain inanimate objects are the ones with the irrational fears.

It is more a case of preparedness. I wear a seat belt (when in a car), I have a first aid kit on my bike. Firearms are really no different. It is just a case of how much trouble you are willing to go through to be prepared for certain events.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

76. In states with reasonable concealed carry laws, it is a lot more than 1%

That said CA though technically allowing concealed carry is almost as restrictive as Wash DC and Chicago. Fortunately some of us can get around most of that nonsense.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

57. More bad fiction from you

Mostly they boycott and tell the proprietor why. Tends to work quite well.

[one-eyed fat man]

58. Unlike these guys....

I've never seen rowdy crowds of protesters calling for boycotts except for the anti-gun bunch. If a business want's to put up a sign, it's their choice. Where I spend my money is my choice.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

63. As well they should.

If you're going to tell a subset of the population that they are not welcome in your business, you deserve the loss of income. Simple as that.

[Big Gay Al]

75. Much ado over nothing

I have a Michigan issued CPL. I've had it since 2003. I've ALWAYS had a firearm with me since that time, and it's never caused a problem for anyone. of the last 8 years that I've carried a pistol, the last 3, I've carried Openly. And I've NEVER had any sort of problem related to Open Carry. It appears that 99.5% of the people don't even notice, and most of those that do, don't seem to really care.

I can't speak to the wisdom of carrying at a naturalization ceremony, but I can and have carried at our state capitol building without causing undue panic.