School Shooting in Brooklyn New York

[mikeb302000]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/shooting-outside-nyc-public-school-leaves-1-parent-killed-student-another-parent-injured/2011/10/21/gIQA5iMV4L_story.html">The Washington Post reports

Someone with a gun opened fire on a street as students were let out of school Friday afternoon, killing one parent who had tried to shield children from harm and injuring an 11-year-old girl and another parent, police and school officials said.

It could have been anything from domestic violence to drug related to random. You know what ties this in with all the other stories, the gun.

Any idiot who wants to can get one. That's called gun availability. It's condoned by the gun manufacturere, gun dealers, and individual gun-rights advocates.

That's why they're to blame.

What's your opinion? Please leave a comment.
http://mikeb302000.blogspot.com/">(cross posted at Mikeb302000)

[bluestateguy]

1. You might want to at least throw in a token word of criticism for the actual murderer

nt

[ileus]

24. Murder is ok...you know carbon footprint reduction and all...but the gun is the real bad part.

[Simo 1939_1940]

2. "That's why they're to blame."

So they are also "to blame" for defending weaker victims from stronger assailants.

one-eared short man

[tblue]

3. But they're 43 times more likely to hurt the wrong person.

This is not a war zone. The Wild West is ancient history. Guns have been the cause of countless deaths that would not have happened if a loaded weapon wasn't so easily acquired. What innocent's death, in a case like this in Brooklyn, is worth easy access to a gun?

[AtheistCrusader]

4. Prove that this weapon was 'easily accessed' by the shooter.

For all you know, this was Gil Kerlikowske's handgun, stolen from his vehicle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gil_Kerlikowske

[Simo 1939_1940]

5. You're quoting the discredited Kellerman study.

Ergo, you lose points for not doing your homework. You also appear to be unaware of the many studies which have confirmed that firearms are used defensively with at least the frequency that they are used offensively. More points deducted.

Edit for typo.

[pipoman]

10. It is always amazing to me that this canard

continues to circulate and people still believe it(the 43x complete nonsense)even though it is universally accepted stupidity. I guess it shouldn't be that surprising given that even though the myth of the flat earth has been proven incorrect for centuries, there are still those who believe the earth is flat. Education on the subject can save some embarrassment later on..

[DanTex]

13. Umm... you've been reading too many right-wing gun blogs.

It is always amazing to me that gun militants will insist on rejecting scientific evidence that doesn't corroborate their political biases. Among scientifically literate people, it is well understood that guns are used far more frequently for criminal purposes than for self-defense.

You should try reading peer-reviewed scientific studies (like Kellermann) rather than just believing whatever it says at guns.com. Here, I'll help you out. Kellermann's studies are several decades old, but research into gun violence continues, and here is a recent survey, published in 2011, that summarizes much of the this research.

There are real and imaginary situations when it might be beneficial to have a gun in the home. For example, in the Australian film Mad Max, where survivors of the apocalypse seem to have been predominantly psychopathic male bikers, having a loaded gun would seem to be very helpful for survival, and public health experts would probably advise people in that world to obtain guns.

However, for most contemporary Americans, the scientific studies suggest that the health risk of a gun in the home is greater than the benefit. There are no credible studies that indicate otherwise. The evidence is overwhelming that a gun in the home is a risk factor for completed suicide and that gun accidents are most likely to occur in homes with guns. There is compelling evidence that a gun in the home is a risk factor for intimidation and for killing women in their homes, and it appears that a gun in the home may more likely be used to threaten intimates than to protect against intruders. On the potential benefit side, there is no good evidence of a deterrent effect of firearms or that a gun in the home reduces the likelihood or severity of injury during an altercation or break-in.

[Simo 1939_1940]

21. Given your fondness for truth and integrity, I'm sure

you will have much to share with us on this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=334436&mesg_id=334436

Crediting a man who measures the benefit of defensive gun use in terms of intruders killed is an instant credibility destroyer.

[pipoman]

23. The "43 Times" lie is so debunked, even the Bradys don't cite it anymore..

Quotes like these immediately recognizable double speak are what destroys the credibility of the gun control arguement when scrutinized by reasonable, logical people..

"The evidence is overwhelming that a gun in the home is a risk factor for completed suicide"

Among suicidal people..need I say more?..Well, OK, the gun didn't cause the suicide in any reasonable persons analysis, any more than the rope in the hanging suicide, the car in the CO suicide, the building in the jumping suicide,..you get the idea..

"gun accidents are most likely to occur in homes with guns"

JC, Really!!1!!11! No Shit!!11! And pool accidents happen more often at homes with pools, and ATV accidents happen more often at homes with ATVs, and red car accidents happen more often to people who own red cars. Care to cite the stats for overall firearms accidents in homes with guns? No? Well I'll help you out there.. The government cites 192 million privately owned guns in 42 million US homes. The CDC says there are around 25,000 fatal and nonfatal gun accidents annually. So 25,000 / 42,000,000 = Less than 6% of households with guns have accidents. Compare this to the other items I listed..swimming pools for instance..

"there is no good evidence of a deterrent effect of firearms"

That's why all the armed robberies at gun stores..

[pipoman]

28. In review, my calculator was off..

actually, accidents happen in homes with guns at a rate of .06% annually...apparently less likely than nearly any other recreational implement in homes..

[SteveM]

27. "43X its weight:" Wasn't that a 50s antacid commercial on T.V.?

[pipoman]

29. That would predate any of my recollections by around 20 years..

it is amusing how prolifically the 43x nonsense is still cited.

[SteveM]

30. Yeah, I remember it only because of some T.V. ad, graphics and all.

It's repetition by MSM is similar to the syphilis-from-a-toilet-seat lore.

[spin]

17. There are 80,000,000 gun owners and 300,000,000 firearm in the United States ...

and those estimates may be low.

If all those firearms are 43 times more likely to hurt the wrong person, they sure don't appear to do it on a large scale when you consider their total number.

I suspect that the overwhelming majority of firearms will never hurt anyone. I know for a fact that none of mine have and since I keep them locked up, I doubt that they will escape and run wild in the streets.

Your "43 times more likely" factoid comes from a study of firearm deaths in Seattle conducted by doctors Arthur L. Kellermann and Donald T. Reay. The glaring problem with the survey is that it counts suicides and in fact suicides account for the majority of the deaths. People who commit suicide may use a gun when one is available, but if not they can find many ways to kill themselves. (Of the 389 firearm deaths in the survey, 333 were suicides. ref http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdgaga.html)

Suicide methods

***snip***

Firearms

***snip***

Research published in the New England Journal of Medicine and the National Academy of Science found an association between household firearm ownership and gun suicide rates,<11><12> though a study by one researcher did not find a statistically significant association between household firearms and gun suicide rates,<13> except in the suicides of children aged 5–14.<13> During the 1980s and early 1990s, there was a strong upward trend in adolescent suicides with a gun,<14> as well as a sharp overall increase in suicides among those age 75 and over.<15>

Two separate studies, in Canada and Australia, conducted in conjunction with more restrictive firearms legislation, demonstrated that while said legislation showed a decrease in firearms suicide, other methods such as hanging increased. In Australia, the overall rate of suicide actually increased (following a trend that had been moving upwards for some time), and did not decrease until measures specifically aimed at providing support to would-be suicide victims was enacted.<16><17><18>...emphasis added
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_methods#Firearms

Of course it should be pointed out that Japan has very strict gun control and a very high suicide rate.

Suicide in Japan

Suicide in Japan has become a significant problem nationally.<1><2> Factors in suicide include unemployment (due to the economic recession in the 1990s), depression, and social pressures. Suicide is predominately the result of a combination of factors such as healthcare provision, social attitudes, cultural influences and economic distress.<3> In 2007, the National Police Agency revised the categorization of motives for suicide into a division of 50 reasons with up to three reasons listed for each suicide.<4> Suicides traced to losing jobs surged 65.3 percent while those attributed to hardships in life increased 34.3 percent. Depression remained at the top of the list for the third year in a row, rising 7.1 percent from the previous year.<4>

The rapid increase in suicides since the 1990s has raised concerns. For example, 1998 saw a 34.7% increase over the previous year.<1> Japan has one of the world's highest suicide rates, especially amongst industrialized nations,<5> and the Japanese government reported the rate for 2006 as being the ninth highest in the world.<6>

In 2009, the number of suicides rose 2 percent to 32,845 exceeding 30,000 for the twelfth straight year and equating to nearly 26 suicides per 100,000 people.<7> This amounts to approximately one suicide every 15 minutes.<3> However, this figure is somewhat disputed since it is arguably capped by the conservative definition of "suicide" that has been adopted by the Japanese authorities, which differs from the WHO's definition. Some people thus suggest a rather larger figure of 100,000 suicides a year. Currently, the conservative per year estimate is still significantly higher than for any other OECD (Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development) country except South Korea. In comparison, the UK rate is about 9 per 100,000, and the US rate around 11 per 100,000.<3> In 2007, Japan ranked first among G8 countries for female suicides and second, behind Russia, for male suicides.<8>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_Japan

[gejohnston]

19. myths abound

the 43 number is a Brady talking point pulled out of thin air.
The wild west never was. You have been watching too many Clint Eastwood movies.
Using your logic, cars are cause of even more deaths.
Did New York repeal the Sullivan Law? You have any idea what NYC's gun laws are and how they relate to current federal laws? If this were Vermont or Wyoming, you might have had a point.

[Uncle Omar]

6. Ban all firearms

As in England ban all firearms.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

11. We are a better and freer nation than the UK and want to remain so

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

7. Aren't gun laws ( especially handgun laws) very strict in places like NYC/Brooklyn?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

12. Indeed, they are quite repressive

[Callisto32]

8. BLAH BLAH BLAH

Arsenic is made by the universe and readily available.

Maybe I can just kill someone with it and blame it on the universe....


Srsly, dude?

Weak. Just..weak.

[beevul]

9. How much do you get paid to post this garbage?

Is it like...a bonus you get per word on your UN paycheck?

Or perhaps the batty bunch throws you some kickbacks, or iansa?


Be honest - how much are you getting.

[Remmah2]

14. I'm at a total loss for words.

NYC has some of the most restrictive gun laws inn the nation. Only the social elite and criminals are allowed to own them. As you know, neither regularly obey the law.

Another flatulent post from mike.

[gravity556]

15. I think NY should make murder illegal.

That would solve all the problems.










The above is lampooning the simplistic thought processes of the OP. Laws don't fix anything. When crooks start getting perforated with high speed projectiles by their intended victims, THEN crime will drop.

[rl6214]

16. Well if we are going to post idiotic theories

I must have been guns that idiot bloomberg bought in some of his illegal gunshow stings or maybe some of the gunrunner fast and furious atf morons brought north.

Unrec for the usual bs you post.

[ObamaFTW2012]

18. Guns are highly restricted in NY

Therefore, this could not have happened. You must have made it up.

[ileus]

20. Them daMn GUnZ always shooting people!

[RSillsbee]

22. Serious Question

What qualifies you (as a criminal gun owner) to decide how ( or even if) I (as a law abiding gun owner) should be able to own or use guns?

[ileus]

25. He is King MiKe after all....who are you to question him?

[Atypical Liberal]

26. More police blotter stories. Edit: gang-related shooting.

Once again, we have another police blotter story from your blog.

Yes, we get it, Mike, people commit crimes with guns.

In this case, we have 3 men shooting from the roof of the adjacent building at their target(s).

This was almost certainly not random, and it was almost certainly not domestic violence.

And given that violent crime rates continue to decline despite a decade of increased firearm availability, it almost certainly has nothing to do with "gun availability".

Edit to add:

Looks like gang-related.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2011/10/24/2011-10-24_15g_reward_gunman.html