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Well, This Doesn't Sound Very Non-Violent

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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 05:26 AM
Original message
Well, This Doesn't Sound Very Non-Violent
Edited on Tue Sep-20-11 05:37 AM by shira
The Palestinians -- at least those under the Palestinian Authority on the West Bank, as opposed to those who live under Hamas control in Gaza -- are said to be be embracing non-violence as a tactic, and bully for them -- the occupation would have collapsed 20 years ago if non-violent tactics (genuine nonviolence, not "non-violent" rock-throwing or "symbolic" Molotov-cocktail-tossing) had been used. But this news does not fill me with hope:

The Palestinian Authority chose the mother of 4 terrorist murderers, one of whom killed seven Israeli civilians and attempted to killed twelve others, as the person to launch their statehood campaign with the UN.

In a widely publicized event, the PA had Latifa Abu Hmeid lead the procession to the UN offices in Ramallah and to hand over a letter for the UN Secretary General Ban Ki Moon.

The official PA daily reported that she launched the UN campaign last week, and noted that she is the "mother of seven prisoners and of the Shahid (Martyr) Abd Al-Mun'im Abu Hmeid." However, the paper did not mention that 4 of her imprisoned sons are murderers.


http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/09/well-this-doesnt-sound-very-non-violent/245259/


This is just pure evil.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 05:45 AM
Response to Original message
1. Nah. It's politics.
Arab spring scares the pants off everybody.

This is a very macho mom and apple pie gesture. It has all sorts of goodies: remember our martyrs, look how virile we are standing up to the Israelis, we love our women, we love our mothers, all that plus a whiff of threat.

Nifty PR.
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 06:05 AM
Response to Original message
2. Nelson Mandela was a terrorist and so was Gerry Adams
Nelson didn't embrace non-violence until after he was in prison. Gerry agreed to a political solution after the US under Bill Clinton allowed him to enter the US and not be extradited to the UK.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 07:20 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. So what do you think this tells us about the PA's intent WRT the UN state bid?
That they intend to have a state alongside Israel in peace?

Or that the UN is about to give birth to a terror state hellbent on the destruction of another UN member nation?
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 07:37 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Additional Terrorists
Yitzak Shamir, Menachem Begin, David Ben Gurion.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. You don't see the difference, right?
Edited on Tue Sep-20-11 10:36 AM by shira
The person the PA is honoring is the very proud mother of terrorists. The PA believes it's a good idea to prop her up as a role model. Worse, they're parading her as the obvious choice to present the PA's statehood bid to the UN.

The Israeli equivalent isn't Begin or Ben Gurion, but rather the state of Israel honoring and propping up Baruch Goldstein's very proud pro-terror mother and sending her off to represent Israel at the UN.

If you can't see how sick and twisted the PA is - and what their UN bid is all about - you don't want to see it.
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. What a distinction!
There is no difference between Israeli ethnic cleansing and the PA support for terror.

You're the one who doesn't want to see.

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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. It definitely is.
Edited on Tue Sep-20-11 07:52 PM by shira
As to ethnic cleansing, there were 10's of millions of refugees who found themselves elsewhere during the WW2 era.

Israel did nothing worse than any other nation in war times.

=======

Now pray tell, why would you bring up ethnic cleansing when you're indifferent about Palestinian refugees who - even in the W.Bank and Gaza - won't be citizens of a future Palestinian state?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x364112#364145

This should be good...

Of course I expect crickets in response.

:eyes:

If you can't be bothered to show any outrage at the PA's treatment of ethnically cleansed Palestinians, why would you bring up Israel's role from 60 years ago?
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. But that was the subject of MY post
WHICH YOU RESPONDED TO.

I was responding to Larkspur's post. The discussion was about TERRORISTS, not refugees.

The moral of the story is that reading is fundamental. Try it before you start your ad hominem attacks on me.




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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. You don't find what the PA did, WRT trotting out this woman, to be sick? n/t
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-11 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #17
29. No; it drove the people crazy that it was supposed to drive crazy
Mission accomplished.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-11 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Hmm. Do you think making a role model out of this woman is a good idea for all Palestinians? n/t
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. think they'll make her PM or something? I mean no civilized country would do something like that
Edited on Tue Sep-20-11 06:48 PM by azurnoir
but yepper we see the difference it's called them vs us
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. I know, you can't tell the difference b/w Sadat and Arafat.
Edited on Tue Sep-20-11 07:22 PM by shira
Or between Mandela and Ismael Haniyeh.

Sorry, can't help you.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. except my post did not mention any of those people did it?
but thanks your hyperbole speaks for itself
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. The point is reformed terrorists aren't the same as unrepentant ones.
No matter how much you want to pretend they are.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. The point seems to be you'll say anything to kick your thread
bye
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-11 04:39 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. LOL, of course - now I've got to go edit some WIKI entries. It's how I roll.
Edited on Wed Sep-21-11 04:42 AM by shira
Damn, I'm late for my next Elders meeting...
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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. Mandela never
Edited on Tue Sep-20-11 05:23 PM by King_David
Blew up pizza parlors.
Killed grandparents at a seder.
Smashed infant heads on rocks.
Slit babies throats.
Put nails in bombs and killed as many as possible on buses .
Glorified death .
Made his followers into suicide cults.

ETA: the Dolfenarium : Mandela never kille a score

Of TEENAGGE kids in a discoteque.


He never did any of that SAVAGERY or BARBARIANISM..

Get it?

Good..
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. This women's sons did all these things or are you just being hyperbolic?
Edited on Tue Sep-20-11 06:46 PM by azurnoir
pick door A or B
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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. Comparing Mandela to any type of Palestinian

Hamas or Fatah type of terrorism is ludicrous?

Definitely NO hyperbole there.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. well that's your opinion and your entitled to it
doesn't make it absolute truth though
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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. It absolutely is true


Putting Mandela in the same barbaric category is :puke:
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. yep putting Mandela in the same barbaric category as someones mother
is in youur opinion something to puke over nuff said
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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Mandela


Does not belong anywhere in any category that includes these filth.

nuff said .
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vminfla Donating Member (992 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-11 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. Mandela fought for peace and justice
This woman raised her children to die and is proud of the fact.
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-11 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. And killed Boer families in cold blood
It's an ugly world we live in.
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-11 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #13
30. You're right; Abbas never personally killed anybody and Mandela did
There's really no comparison...
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-11 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #8
27. Sure he did
The ANC did a lot of bombings; I mean, I suppose literally they didn't blow up any pizza parlors since there weren't any, but the idea that the early ANC wasn't a tremendously violent terrorist organization is ludicrous.

And for all our talk about "terrorism never accomplishes anything", I seriously doubt the ANC or IRA would have gotten what they want without violence and the continued threat of it.
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ret5hd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 06:23 AM
Response to Original message
3. and the sins of the fathers...i mean sons...shall be visited upon their sons...
i mean mothers...etc etc etc
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-20-11 08:22 PM
Response to Original message
19. Military whistleblower tells of 'indiscriminate' Israeli attacks
16 September 2011

By Donald Macintyre

Israeli troops fired tear gas indiscriminately and sometimes dangerously to enforce a daytime curfew inside a West Bank village to stop Palestinians holding a peaceful demonstration on their own land, a military whistleblower has told The Independent.

The soldier's insight into the methods of troops comes as the Israeli military prepares for demonstrations predicted when the Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas submits an application for the recognition of statehood to the UN next week.

The testimony also reinforces a report by the human rights agency B'Tselem which argues that the way Israel deals with protests in the small village of Nabi Saleh is denying the "basic right" to demonstrate in the West Bank. The right to demonstrate is enshrined in international conventions ratified by Israel.



The soldier, a reservist NCO with extensive combat experience, was among more than 20 soldiers sent into the village more than two hours before a planned Friday demonstration in July, to try to quash protests before they began. The protests started in December 2009 after Jewish settlers appropriated a spring on privately-owned Nabi Saleh land.

The reservist, who originally testified to the veterans' organisation Breaking the Silence, told The Independent that they went into a house in the village and took a position on the roof. "The sun was very hot, but we had to keep our helmets on," he said. "Then some soldiers start getting bored and start shooting tear gas on people. Every guy who is not in his house or in the mosque is a target."

He said that 150 rounds of tear gas or stun grenades were fired during the day and one soldier boasted that he had fired a tear gas canister which passed within one centimetre of a resident's head.

Army rules prohibit firing canisters directly at people because they have caused serious injuries in the past. Another soldier travelling with the whistleblower in a military vehicle out of the village was left with an unfired tear gas canister.

"He should have fired it into an open field but we passed a grocery story with some people outside it with children. After we passed it he just turned round and fired it at them."

The reservist was given a week's preparation on the use of stun grenades, rubber bullets and tear gas. He had been impressed by a four to five -hour visit to the trainees by the Binyamin Brigade Commander Sa'ar Tzur who addressed "issues of ethics and human life, not just on our side but on the other side".

Some soldiers complained about the strictness of prohibitions – not always honoured, according to the leaders of the weekly Nabi Saleh protests – on the use of live ammunition. But Colonel Tzur "was very strict on the fact that these are the rules and that anyone who breaks them will pay for it".

But the battalion officer, a religious West Bank settler, was "exactly the opposite," he added. "At the base there was a mission statement signed by the Brigade Commander which said 'we need to maintain the fabric of life for the civilian population, Israelis and Palestinians.' The battalion officer crossed out the word 'Palestinians' and all the soldiers around started laughing."

The reservist's testimony supports B'Tselem's s main conclusions, including that the military makes "excessive use of crowd control weapons, primarily the firing of tear-gas canisters."

He said: "It was very difficult for me. I want to be in the army to defend my country. On the other hand I saw that the job I was doing did not have any connection with defending Israel."

He said that his unit was called to the village square when the battalion officer showed around 40 Palestinians and foreign activists a written order declaring the village a "closed military zone." The soldiers had earlier heard shouting elsewhere by demonstrators before they were almost immediately dispersed by border police firing tear gas. The reservist said the people in the square "were just standing there. The officer said to the soldiers: 'Everybody should get out of here. The Palestinians into their homes and the foreigners should get out. Anyone left should be arrested.' One Palestinian was arrested when a soldier decided that he had 'looked at him in a way he didn't like'."

As well as 35 Palestinian injuries in Nabi Saleh this year, there have been 80 detentions since the protests began, including of 18 minors, and protest leader Bassem Tamimi, currently awaiting military trial based largely on the interrogation of a 14-year-old boy arrested at home at gunpoint at 2am.

The military said it has "clear, detailed, and professional guidelines" for the use of tear gas to disperse "riots", and that after two years of "dangerous and violent riots" it declared the village a "closed military area" on Fridays to "prevent these riots before they turn into violent ones".

The military's tactics have varied. A 13-year-old Palestinian boy was seriously injured by a rubber-coated bullet fired at close range during protracted clashes between armed troops and stone-throwing youths observed last year by The Independent. Those clashes started when troops fired tear gas and rubber bullets on the hitherto peaceful march towards the spring.

The reservist said he had seen no stones thrown on the day he was there. adding: "If they want to stop people throwing stones at the spring, why don't wait at the spring? Why are they coming into the village?" He added: "The headline of the whole Friday, as I see it, if the army won't be in the village nothing would happen because the demonstration was not violent."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/military-whistleblower-tells-of-indiscriminate-israeli-attacks-2355436.html
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-11 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
26. Actually that sounds very non-violent
:shrug:
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