The Blue Dogs and the New Dems sold us out on the Bankruptcy Bill.

[madfloridian]

The Blue Dogs voted 32-3 in favor of it. The New Democrats sent a letter to Dennis Hastert begging him to bring it up for a vote soon. More on that later.

Nancy Pelosi and David Sirota suffered fallout over the Bankruptcy Bill. They said it was wrong, they told why it mattered...and they suffered for that.

It was more than a bill. It was a total sell-out to corporations, in this case the credit card companies. The Blue Dogs and New Dems knew that when they advocated for it and voted for it. They knew it condemned the ill, the elderly, the poor, and those hurt by circumstances like hurricanes..to losing their homes and being left with little recourse.

Did you know that Nancy Pelosi stood up for the "liberals" in the party and stood up to the Blue Dogs and New Dems against the Bankruptcy Bill? Did you know it was one of the things that caused the worst divide between Pelosi and Hoyer.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/4/28/125717/774

In an acknowledgement that fences within her Caucus need mending, Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (Calif.) scheduled private meetings Wednesday evening with leading House Democratic moderates, including Minority Whip Steny Hoyer (Md.).

Pelosi was set to sit down individually with Hoyer, while a similar meeting with Rep. John Tanner (Tenn.), long a leading figure among conservative Blue Dog Democrats, was being rescheduled because of Wednesday evening's ethics vote. She also had asked for a meeting with Rep. Ron Kind (Wis.), a leader of the centrist New Democrat Coalition.

Sources suggested that the Minority Leader recognizes that a rift exists between different factions of her Caucus and that she wants to reach out to moderates in an effort to unite the party. Those sources said Pelosi called the meetings to hear the concerns of centrists, who for some time have felt growing alienation from the leader and other liberal Members....

.."The need for such healing became clear after a blow-up in last week's whip meeting over a vote on bankruptcy legislation. Accusations flew and tensions flared at the session when Pelosi sided with liberal Members angry over Democratic defections, and Hoyer defended the moderates who supported the measure

Did you know that David Sirota got called on the carpet at Center for the American Progress for pointing out that many of the conservatives Democrats voting for the bill had taken a lot of money from credit cards company. Those centrist Demcrats ran crying to John Podesta who is head of that group to tattletale on Sirota.

Here is what was posted at Daily Kos with a link to The Hill article about the whining.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/4/28/125717/774

Look, there was nothing "moderate" or "centrist" about the bankruptcy bill. Nothing. It was a payoff to the credit card industry, and frankly, I don't see how siding with MBNA over working Americans has anything to do with the ideological spectrum. This was a giveaway to a special interest, plain and simple.

Pelosi is right, and the "moderates" are wrong -- there's nothing to apologize for. These guys didn't just vote with the GOP on a bill. They sent a letter urging Hastert to introduce and pass the legislation. When David Sirota called them on that travesty, the Whining Moderates ran and cried to John Podesta (who runs the Center for American Progress where Sirota is a fellow). Now, they're crying to Pelosi when she calls them on the bullshit.

I am also going to post the letter the House New Democrat Coalition sent to Dennis Hastert begging him to please, pretty please put that Bankruptcy Bill up for a vote cause they couldn't wait any longer.

I will add Mary Scott O'Conner's post about the serious implications of this bill that passed last year and further divided our party.

There is going to be a battle about who we are and what we stand for, and I see it started right after the election.

[No Exit]

1. How long, how long, will the great majority allow the wealthy few to exploit them?

It's one thing when they steal from us. But when they ask for the blood of our children, they've crossed a line.

Time for an adjustment.

[madfloridian]

2. I am getting some more stuff ready on this...they don't want power out of DC

It in reality was a slap in the face to everyone, not just ones who misuse credit. A couple with illness, needing a caregiver to stay home...which means no income could lose their home.

It does not matter they had good credit all their lives.

These are the two groups who don't want power going out of DC. Why, because if it does the people get more say.

[Union Thug]

15. Your post reminded me of one of my favorite Wunder Showzen segments...

Where the little girl is acting as a reporter on the streets. She stops who I think was a Wall St. suit and asks, "Where will you hide when the revolution comes?" He stood there dumbstruck.

Anyway, more to the point - The Dems that voted to screw us on the bankruptcy bill are not the Democrats that I grew up with. These are garden variety Republican light corporate drones. Why don't these guys just change parties?

[Lasher]

48. So that 2 corporate lapdogs will be on the ballot in the general election

That one was easy.

[PassingFair]

3. I remember how *ucking ANGRY I was over this vote!

And how angry I was over it's getting voted out of committee, too.

I was aghast at my senator, stabenow's, role in it!

[BlueEyedSon]

25. ditto (angry!!!!)

[Captain Hilts]

4. A big, wet kiss to the credit card companies and predatory lenders. Biden!!!! nt

[Jim Sagle]

5. Let's see Al From and his DU cheerleaders defend this!

[wndycty]

6. Keep faning the flames for a Democratic Civil War. . .

. . .I'm not surprised, we took back the House and the Senate, a number of state houses and Governorships, your boy Howard Dean is the chairman of the party yet that is not enough, you won't be happy until there is a Democratic civil war.

I believe there are a ton of necessary arguments and debates we need to have within the party but you seem to want to polarize things as opposed to bringing the party together and you won't be happy until everyone thinks the way you want them to think. Its silly and unproductive. But of course I have to come to expect that on DU.

[DaveinMD]

7. amen

you are so right.

[sandnsea]

9. Yep - that's right

Getting power to do something was only a first step. If we don't get the things done that the people actually want, having power won't mean a thing. And chew on this - we've got a situation where 50% or less of adults actually vote. They're angry about the country, but don't believe government has the ability to change anything. If we continue to let that erode, then there's going to be a lot more than a civil war in the Democratic Party. Getting this government to respond to the needs of ALL Americans is actually preventing chaos in the streets, in the long run.

[madfloridian]

10. Maybe you just haven't been paying attention.

This started in just a few days after we won. I did not start it.

I think you are being very insulting. I think it is rude, and I think it is over the top about what I am saying here.

I should be used to this by now, but I guess I am not. The battle is going on, and it ain't my boy Dean as you so rudely say.

It is the people who saw us go to war on lies, saw the party sell us out on this bill. They are the ones who see what is happening.

[Hissyspit]

12. I appreciate your informational post. n/t

[madfloridian]

33. Thanks for that.

It is such a dangerous bill that could affect anyone.

[wndycty]

13. That was my intent. . .

"I think you are being very insulting. I think it is rude, and I think it is over the top about what I am saying here."

You want everyone to think your way. If we don't think they way you think we are not true progressives. The scary thing is when it comes to ideology you and I are probably not that far apart, however when it comes to tactics and strategy we are worlds apart.

The Democratic party is very diverse yet you want to purge any and everyone that does not agree with you.

I know there are DLC, Blue Dogs and New Dems who want to purge many on the far left and that is just as stupid and counter productive. Somebody has to be the bigger man or woman.

[madfloridian]

16. I won't be that "bigger man or woman". Sorry, no more.

I have seen what has gone on since we won. It was a win that came from all of us and from our hearts and souls. We worked our butts off.

Then it began, the lectures that we must be centrist. No more. I am a real moderate/centrist, that is in the middle...the brand advocated by many is faux and is not even centrist.

This bill crossed the line of human decency, and I am sad to see you defend it and insult me because I am criicizing it.

No, I don't care if people think like I do. It simply does not matter to me anymore. I am too old to worry about it anymore. My country is just about bankrupt morally and financially.

I don't give a damn who thinks what. I will say what I think in a fair and rational way.

[wndycty]

20. I'm no DAMNED CENTRIST, I'm very far left. . .but I'm pragmatic. . .

. . .we need all parts of this party working together to win in 2008. I will constantly challenge those in the party who are to the right of me, but I will also challenge those in the party who seek to divide us (centrist, conservative Dems and progressives). I don't see why a blood bath is necessary to change the party, especially when that blood bath can make us vulnerable in future elections.

[madfloridian]

21. I posted what needed to be said.

In light of the fact that the move was made first by Carville, then Greenberg, then others...it was slowed down because we DID speak up. We defended the strategy, we defended the win as being by all of us.

I see at all the blogs that people are on guard right now, and they should be.

Both of these groups are coming out claiming the agenda and power will be theirs.

It is going to be a shared agenda this time.

[OzarkDem]

73. You mean "our boy" Howard Dean

As head of the DNC, he's the leader of all Dems. If you call yourself a Democrat, then you support him.

[Hippo_Tron]

78. Unlike some of our other fights, this is a REAL issue

This isn't the Howard Dean vs James Carville crap where people are just full of hot air and have nothing of substance to discuss. Sirota is 100% correct. Democrats voted for this horrible piece of legislation and many of them happened to be with the DLC and many of them took campaign contributions from credit card companies. There's a difference between rampant DLC bashing (which I'll admit happens here on DU plenty) and pointing out some cold hard facts about some of their members.

It is our obligation as responsible citizens to criticize people from both parties who voted for this legislation and try to pressure our new congress to overturn it.

[PVnRT]

87. So how do you feel about the bankruptcy bill?

Care to share that with us? Or are you more concnerned with conformance?

When you say things like "all you want to do is start a civil war in the party," you know what you're really saying? "Sit down and shut up." You claim there are "things to debate" within the party, yet people like you jump into every thread like this and start whining about how there's no unity and blah blah blah.

"you won't be happy until everyone thinks the way you want them to think"

I love strawmen. Let's come up with one of our own:

"You won't be happy until the left is marginalized and silenced."

[nicknameless]

8. How they voted:

Senate:
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0312-03.htm

House:
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2005/roll108.xml

:grr:

[PassingFair]

11. Don't be deceived by Lieberman's "nay" vote

He voted to let it out of committee, knowing
DAMN well there were enough votes to pass it.

He could have stymied it in committee.

TRAITOR!

Then he cynically voted against it.

Trouble is, people were WATCHING.

DAMN those NETROOTS!

[nicknameless]

19. Yes. Lieberman can always be relied on for a deceitful, cynical maneuver like that.

Here he is in conference with his two of his fellow party members:

[onenote]

31. I'm not a fan of Lieberman, but I wouldn't make up lies about him

He voted to "let it out of committee"? Really? How did he do that, since it was reported by the Judiciary Committee and he's not a member of that committee?

[PassingFair]

36. I'm a "LIAR"?

He voted for CLOTURE.
Then he voted against the measure.
He SUCKS royally.

"Some Democratic senators spoke against the bill and then voted for it. One of them, Senator Joe Lieberman, spoke for it and against it, voted for cloture (cutting off debate and moving the bill toward passage) and then voted against the bill. Another, Senator Hillary Clinton, did not vote for or against the bill. Nineteen Democratic Senators voted for the bill, while 24 voted against it. These are the 19 who chose to side with the credit card companies:

Sen. Joe Biden (D-Delaware)

Sen. Tom Carper (D-Delaware)

Sen. Ben Nelson (D-Nebraska)

Sen. Tim Johnson (D-South Dakota)

Sen. Max Baucus (D-Montana)

Sen. Evan Bayh (D-Indiana)

Sen. Jeff Bingaman (D-New Mexico)

Sen. Robert Byrd (D-West Virginia)

Sen. Kent Conrad (D-North Dakota)

Sen. Dan Inouye (D-Hawaii)

Sen. Jim Jeffords (I-Vermont)

Sen. Herb Kohl (D-Wisconsin)

Sen. Mary Landrieu (D-Louisiana)

Sen. Blanche Lincoln (D-Arkansas)

Sen. Bill Nelson (D-Florida)

Sen. Mark Pryor (D-Arkansas)

Sen. Harry Reid (D-Nevada)

Sen. Ken Salazar (D-Colorado)

Sen. Debbie Stabenow (D-Michigan)

[onenote]

50. okay, if you're not a "liar" you're just a distorter

Here's exactly what you wrote: "He voted to let it out of committee, knowing
DAMN well there were enough votes to pass it.He could have stymied it in committee."

You now apparently concede that he wasn't on the relevant committee and thus couldn't have voted "to let it out of committee". Instead, you shift to his vote on cloture. Only, his vote on cloture couldn't have "stymied" the legislation since cloture passed easily (69-31) with, as you now acknowledge, the support of more than a dozen other Democrats.

Again, I'm no fan of Lieberman (I contributed to Lamont in fact). But I have this thing about distortions. And it is a distortion -- indeed an untruth -- to say that Lieberman "could have stymied in committee" when in fact he wasn't on the committee of jurisdiction and his vote on cloture would not have changed the outcome. You suggest that he voted against the legislation only because he knew there weren't the votes to defeat it. One could just as easily assume that he voted for cloture because he knew there weren't enough votes to stop it and that his vote against the bill reflected his position, not his vote on cloture.

[antigop]

23. Yep, Hoyer voted for it all right. n/t

[malikstein]

47. Hmm, where's HRC

99 Senators voted, but not Hillary. She was always present to vote for war, but somehow missed this one. Did her payoff get delayed in the mail?

[SOS]

52. She voted for it in December 2000.

Bill vetoed it.
She was absent for the vote when it passed.

[nicknameless]

61. I don't think she was in office then. (Elected 11/00)

But she did vote in favor of it in March 2001. So did Schumer.
It's number 15 on the list at this site:

http://www.pirg.org/score2003/newyork.html

[SOS]

82. oops

You are correct.
Clinton voted for it March 2001.

[fujiyama]

84. Apparently the bill passed

was even worse than the previous version, though both were completely unnecessary, and are perfect examples of BAD legislation made to give more protection to an industry that needs none - a industry that in fact has been doing very well.

This is also one of the reasons I really don't care too much for Hillary of Chuck. Both pander an insane amount to their corporate backers. And it's one of the reasons I view Hillary as more RW than her husband and has no core principals or beliefs whatsoever.

[madfloridian]

14. Even the TNR was against it...published the letter from the New Dems.

This is one of the most shameful times in our history. I will also post some of the worst provisions of this bill from another blog.

Here is the letter:

http://www.tnr.com/etc.mhtml?pid=2584

FOR SHAME: This e-mail came in over the transom today from the House New Democrat Coalition. If you consider yourself a moderate Democrat, it should turn your stomach:

Washington, D.C.--With consumer debt reaching record highs of more than $2 trillion, members of the New Democrat Coalition (NDC) sent a letter today to Speaker Dennis Hastert, urging him to schedule House action on the bankruptcy reform legislation as soon as the Senate completes its consideration of the bill. The letter, signed by twenty NDC members, including the four NDC leaders, reiterates New Democrats' long-standing support for common-sense bankruptcy legislation and states an intention to work across the aisle to pass bankruptcy reform into law.

"I'm pleased to see so many New Democrats band together in calling for a mainstream solution to bankruptcy reform. I hope Speaker Hastert will heed our calls and move promptly to bring this legislation to the floor soon," said Rep. Ellen O. Tauscher.

""The bankruptcy legislation needs to be brought to the House floor," said U.S. Rep. Adam Smith. "Personal responsibility is an important value that must be part of our public policy. This legislation ensures that Americans must make good on their commitments while also protecting those who truly need help under Chapter 7 bankruptcy laws."

The sad part though is that they forget to include...and even voted against amendments that would soften the blow for those who need it most.

Here are the ones who signed it.

Sincerely,

Rep. Ellen O. Tauscher
Rep. Adam Smith
Rep. Ron Kind
Rep. Artur Davis
Rep. Carolyn McCarthy
Rep. John Larson
Rep. Stephanie Herseth
Rep. Dennis Moore
Rep. Mike McIntyre
Rep. Joe Crowley
Rep. Jay Israel
Rep. David Wu
Rep. Diane Hooley
Rep. Melissa Bean
Rep. Jim Davis
Rep. Harold E. Ford, Jr.
Rep. Ed Case
Rep. Jay Inslee
Rep. Shelley Berkeley
Rep. Gregory W. Meeks

More on the sad parts of this bill later.

[samfishX]

17. At least Harold Ford is gone.

And I hope he stays gone.

It's time to start purging the Democratic party of it's Republican-lite members. Primary season is the best time to do this.

[madfloridian]

18. Jim Davis is also.

He lost the FL governor's race.

[PassingFair]

22. Oh, but haven't you HEARD?

We shouldn't fight them in the primaries, because
we cause them to SPEND money and this helps the
REPUBLICANS.

Why do you hate America?

We must lay down and take it from our corporate
masters! Jeez!

What? We took the House AND the SENATE
by FIGHTING in ALL 50 STATES?
By FORCING the PUKES to spend EVERYWHERE,
in EVERY RACE?

We ran PROGRESSIVES in RED STATES
and WON?

You must be ON CRACK.

We must replace DEAN immediately.

Go home, grassroots.

That is all.

[DaveinMD]

38. too bad he's gone

we could use him the Senate instead of extreme right winger Larry Corker.

[Joe Chi Minh]

60. Have read that and digested it, wndycy? The Primaries. No division...

rather, the removal of division by consolidation of the progressives.

[eridani]

46. But Smith and Inslee voted AGAINST it in the end

This was not an accident. Both were intensively lobbied by Democracy for Washington and Progressive Democrats of America, who instigated letter-writing campaigns by legislative district and county Dem organizations focussing on these two, as well as Dicks, Larsen and Baird. McDermott of course was a reliable vote against. We failed with Larsen and Baird, but we turned Smith and Inslee totally around.

[madfloridian]

24. Now for the very bad parts.

I don't know which have been fixed or corrected. I hear one affecting the military was addressed, but not the others.

First the simple explanation I put together...using easy words.

"Guess what is NOT in the bankruptcy bill. There is a lack of exemptions for the ill, the disabled, the elderly who might have large bills from ill health....nothing to protect their homes and cars.

It does not exempt debtors whose financial problems were caused by serious medical problems from means testing. It does not provide protection for medical debt homeowners. Homes and cars could be lost under this new plan if you have medical problems.

It does not preserve existing bankruptcy protections for
individuals experiencing economic distress as caregivers to ill or disabled family members.

There is no provision to insure elderly people in financial trouble who seek bankruptcy could keep their homes. Republicans voted down a provision for it, and 3 Democrats from states with big credit card industries joined them.

Making the minimum payment on a credit card can often cause you to go
further in debt with the credit card company. An amendment was voted down by all Republicans and a few Democrats that would have required this disclosure on the danger of minimum payments.

I am trying to summarize in 4 paragraphs what Hunter posted about Mary Scott O'Conner's summary.

If anyone sees something I have wrong, please let me know. Some of it may have been changed, and I did not include all the bad stuff because I did not know how to put it in simple words.

[madrchsod]

29. the bankruptcy bill was one of the biggest blows

to the down and outs in this country. i will never for give any democrat that voted to cripple those who have little just to receive a few dollars for their vote and what surprises me is just how cheaply they got bought off. god will have no mercy on those who sold their souls. i`ve been there ,done that, and thats why i am still pissed off when this is brought up.

[Nite Owl]

26. The Blue Dogs also provided

25 of the 34 votes from the dems for the torture bill.

[madfloridian]

27. BTW, I firmly believe people should be responsible with money.

We have been. Most of our friends have been. We saved money when we could, more than was comfortable, invested, did the right thing.

We were lucky to have insurance we could get fairly reasonably from the groups we worked for when we retired. It was pretty good at first, but the insurance has quadrupled since we retired.

So has our home and car insurance. Health and home and car are insurances that have at least quadrupled.

Now the prescription drug company is saying they decide what prescriptions to pay for, they don't care what the doctors say. We got hit hard on one prescription...it went from 20 to 220 dollars when the insurance decided we had been on it long enough even though the doctor said otherwise.

We saved a lot, but sometimes I wonder how long it will last if things keep quadrupling and insurance keeps cutting payments.

So excuse me if I have only rage for this bill. We are ones who did everything right, but we feel twinges of fear now.

What the hell good is a paid for house if you can't afford the insurance anymore?

Our house taxes are 5 times more now than when we retired. How can one afford to have a paid for house when one can't afford the rising taxes and insurance?

Things to think about.

[undergroundpanther]

40. Self righteous saver?

You grew up trained to save to scrimp to squirrel away, Not everyone grew up with misers.Not EVERYONE has financial acuity, Not everyone handles stress as you do. Not everyone can afford a nest egg. I am too poor to be able to save for ANYTHING.. I get very little I am disabled. And I am waiting fort the axe to fall to feed the rich,and destroy my life completely. My life has been very unhappy hopeless and it sucks. Being poor just makes it harder. You may have grown up in a stable home. Maybe you had hope. Maybe you had someone who gave a shit.

Maybe that is WHY you can save and it looks so simple to YOU..

For others who do not have hope, who lack the emotional supports you have, who do not have skills in budgeting/math, people who were not raised as you were, don't you THINK it may be a bit difficult for them to do as you do with the kinds of lack they have that you don't?? I really hate arrogant budgetary wiz people who are so smug,it's nauseating. LOok fortune favored you ,you had the kind of life and training as a child that gave you the ability to cope with financial; hardships that some others did not get. Do not get so smug. Fortune can reverse so easy, one illness, one storm, one car crash..and the nest egg vanishes, and when it does.. you will face what many others do, and sometimes the all belt tightening, biggest budget wiz in the world will not save you from fortunes wrath if misfortune picks on YOU this time around.

There are people who do everything right and still go in debt. It happens. Because this society is evil.And people who get arrogant over their own fortunate circumstances patting themselves ...lets just say pride goes before the fall.

You think you control so much.

Most people are in such denial of how little we control in our reality,
Fortune is luck and luck does not come to everyone equally. Horatio Alger is a LIE..

I am disability I once "pulled myself up" to making 80,000 a year, than the Dot Com's went bust , couldn't get jobs, owed 150,000 taxes,sold the house to pay the taxes and bills off, now I am poor again. The stress of being a "productive citizen" nearly killed me. I cannot endure the stress, I have LIMITS on how much hassle and stress I can take before I start getting suicidal. I was not given fortune,like you. I was not raised as you were as my parents were fucked in the head.Pstd can mess you up forever. I did not cause my problem, but I suffer it anyway. And sometimes I dream of having a rest, a break from the hassles of poverty, the fear of bills , rest from the sickness, of my shit filled lonely life. Yet, I am not in serious debt,I have 1 outstanding bill for a little over 100 bucks. I am too terrified of the EVIL creditors are to even DARE get a credit card for even emergencies,I don't want those dispcable usurious bloodsucking mosters on my ass.. But by time the bills I got are paid and the rich get their cut, I have nothing left for me.If I began to pay off the hundred dollar debt which is medical debt from before I got on disability at a faster rate ,I would not eat the last week of the month. That is my reality.

I look at what others have and I do wish I had something leftover to pin some dreams on.But it ain't gonna happen for me. Because America HATES poor people, especially disabled poor people. The rich would just love to see people like me dead.Shit Sometimes I wish I could sleep staight for 6 months, no food to buy,no heat or ac, consume nothing. Than I'd have some freed up money when I awoke to pay off the bill, and maybe live a dream,a modest one.But I can't hibernate.Dammit. I exist and because our culture is batshit crazy and internally destroying itself busy killing love, and life itself..while we all pay to exist,in this world where some of us never chose to be born ....

[madfloridian]

45. I think you took my post the wrong way.

I did not put you down in any way. My point is that in the world of corporate America it can happen to anyone, no matter how careful.

Sorry it came across wrong, it was meant as sincere concern over the future of all of us.

[paulk]

28. so what's your solution?

Have you got a plan to fight these "Bluedogs"?

[madfloridian]

30. I just want them to know we are here and listen to us. Simple enough.

The tendency from my Senator Nelson and former Congressman Jim Davis has been minimalize the importance of what the people in this country need and want...and maximize what corporations want.

I don't want anything I am not entitled to have, but I want them to listen to our needs.

It was the same way with the Iraq war. We at DU, millions of us all over the country knew it was a wrong war. They ignored us, and it is too late now for our country's honor and financial security anytime soon.

Our Democrats have a big job ahead of them, and I support them. But I don't want the business friendly groups to ignore the people anymore. We are not going to survive if they do.

[undergroundpanther]

41. They might listen to you

But they won't for people like me. I am invisible.

[madfloridian]

43. No, you are not invisible.

All of us here care deeply.

Well, most of us anyway.

I think those who can get attention have an obligation to do so. That is why I risk anger here and have my congressmen constantly angry with me.

Don't despair, please.

[undergroundpanther]

77. I know you all are listening..

but the congress, hell they don't listen to most anybody, me and a half billion others included.

[madfloridian]

79. If we work together to keep such issues front and center.. Like Move On

we can get them to pay attention.

Of course we can. I just posted about this at MoveOn in the questionaire they sent around.

This is the kind of issue they can really help with.

[madfloridian]

32. Best way to summarize Hunter's post and MSOC's diary...amendments defeated.

That really is the scary part of it all. This post by Hunter at Kos is so long and so involved...so I will just post the amendments that were defeated. That should tell you how bad this bill is.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/3/6/63144/06015

03-Mar
On the Amendment S.Amdt. 42
Schumer Amdt. No. 42; To limit the exemption for asset protection trusts.
REJECTED

03-Mar
On the Amendment S.Amdt. 49
Durbin Amdt. No. 49; To protect employees and retirees from corporate practices that deprive them of their earnings and retirement savings when a business files for bankruptcy.
REJECTED


03-Mar
On the Amendment S.Amdt. 38
Durbin Amdt. No. 38; To discourage predatory lending practices.
REJECTED

03-Mar
On the Amendment S.Amdt. 37
Nelson (FL) Amdt. No. 37; To exempt debtors from means testing if their financial problems were caused by identity theft.
REJECTED


03-Mar
On the Amendment S.Amdt. 31
Dayton Amdt. No. 31.; To limit the amount of interest that can be charged on any extension of credit to 30 percent.
REJECTED
(In other words, your interest can go as high as they want it to go. One of my credit cards, paid right on time always...went up to 23% recently..because they could)

This is the biggie:

02-Mar
On the Amendment S.Amdt. 32
Corzine Amdt. No. 32; To preserve existing bankruptcy protections for individuals experiencing economic distress as caregivers to ill or disabled family members.
REJECTED
(Can you imagine the suffering that can arise from this?)

02-Mar
On the Amendment S.Amdt. 28
Kennedy Amdt. No. 28.; To exempt debtors whose financial problems were caused by serious medical problems from means testing.
REJECTED

02-Mar
On the Amendment S.Amdt. 29
Kennedy Amdt. No. 29; To provide protection for medical debt homeowners.
REJECTED

02-Mar
On the Amendment S.Amdt. 15
Akaka Amdt. No. 15; To require enhanced disclosure to consumers regarding the consequences of making only minimum required payments in the repayment of credit card debt, and for other purposes.
REJECTED

Vital one:

02-Mar
On the Amendment S.Amdt. 17
Feingold Amdt. No. 17.; To provide a homestead floor for the elderly.
REJECTED
Here is an explanation of that one:
""In States such as Florida and Texas, there is a homestead exemption with an unlimited dollar value, meaning that any money invested in a home cannot be obtained by creditors. I should note, of course, that this creates other problems, which I will address in a few minutes. But other States allow a very limited value homestead exemption. In many States, the amount of equity a homeowner can protect in bankruptcy has lagged far behind the dramatic rise in home values in recent years. For example, in the State of Ohio, the homestead exemption is only $5,000, and in the Presiding Officer's State of North Carolina, the homestead exemption is $10,000. In this day and age, those paltry exemptions will do no good. We obviously have a problem, and it is hitting our older friends and family members the hardest.
Think about it: In these low homestead exemption States, even indigent elderly homeowners who own a home free and clear worth only $30,000 or $40,000 cannot file for chapter 7 bankruptcy without losing their home."

One more as this is getting too long:

"01-Mar
On the Amendment S.Amdt. 16
Durbin Amdt. No. 16, As Modified.; To protect service members and veterans from means testing in bankruptcy, to disallow certain claims by lenders charging usurious interest rates to servicemembers, and to allow servicemembers to exempt property based on the law of the State of their premilitary residence.
REJECTED"

One for the military was revoted upon, but I don't know the results.

This is an outrage on the people of America.

[davidwparker]

34. This was bad for Dems to vote for. Here's my remedy for a lot of things.

Pay in cash. Pay off the charge card at the end of the month. Or, DO WITHOUT.

How many people plunked down plastic on the 30% off Thanksgiving sales ("black Friday")?

I used a charge card to get a better heating/cooling system for my house. This was something I wanted to do and live with the interest that I'm charged and I'm not complaining.

For everything else, it's cash. And, what I'm finding that I like is doing without. A protest. A protest for NAFTA; for greedy corporations; for incoming cheap Chinese crap.

This has been working for me and I feel it is cleaning from this materialistic society.

[madfloridian]

35. Read the posts I put just above.

This will affect people who don't even use credit cards. Caregivers who are confined to a home, people who run up huge medical bills through no fault of their own.

Credit cards are only part of it.

[undergroundpanther]

37. Poor people

have NO voice in this country that acts for the rich and panders to the fucking "middle class"all the time . Everyone assumes poor people are inferior, lazy irresponsible or whatever crap they say to feel better than the poor person.Poor people are disposable to middle classer's who fight to keep homeless shelters OUT of their neighbor hoods. The rich wall themselves off from everyone but their own kind.If you are poor in America and if you are not hated,yet..be sure you are blamed for being poor, it's all your fault "gawd" has not favored YOU with a fat paycheck. The poor are blamed for being poor and blamed for why the middle class ain't millionaires yet. The rich have for the poor nothing but the most ignorant patronizing smug contempt.

The poor have no voice, none.NONE.Do the Dems even speak to ME to issues facing poor people? Hell no.We are just a prop during election season to make the candidate appear generous to MIDDLE CLASS voters and when he gets into power he cuts food stamps and fucks poor people over again and gives himself a fat raise.

And I HATE it. Centrist Dem's would fuck me over like a republican already does. It really does matter what your income is,in determining how progressive you are.. I think class can often determine how progressive you really ARE. If you are fat and happy where you are, got bucks rolling in like rich people do, you vote"conservative" to hold onto it,and grab as much as you can take.. If you are upper middle/ middle class you play the center because you want what you got and hope for getting more after all you aren't some poor loser. And the poor they are often pretty progressive, why because poverty sucks that's why... and if you never been poor before let me tell you from experince..it HURTS.

For some poor people, they used credit cards to survive when medical bills crushed the budget or some other unforeseen expense.. that for the poor fucked them over.. This same sort of thing is do able for middle class, and a drop of piss in the ocean for the rich..

And yes I hate rich people,because they bought the government from us and shut me and other poor people out , making sure people like me who are poor have no voice at all..And the middle class is more than happy to suck ass of the rich man to get a few perks and to keep homeless shelters out of their pristine suburban utopia.

[madfloridian]

39. See my post 27. It is going to affect everyone.

In many different ways.

[undergroundpanther]

42. Yeah

I re read post 27. I thought you were one of the smug budget wiz people that rail about how everyone in debt should be as "responsible" as they themselves are.
I get really sick of that stuff. It makes me react. Because I am poor and I am not irresponsible. Sometimes you can do everything right and still get fucked over. Everyone's life is different as are circumstances and that is something self aggrandizing frugality experts fail to take into their accounting when they label others as fiscally irresponsible.

You apparently saved up, but all the costs of shit is eating your nest egg fast.It's sad. But you got cushion. Fast eroding, but you got a chance. I know I am screwed . It's just a matter of time. I will eventually fall through the cracks of the ever more threadbare social safety net now being robbed by rich people who want people like me dead, and to suffer and die .I will feel the cut way before you do.Politically I have no voice I do not exist. And it sucks. I am not a "boomer" I am not middle class, a parent or a child, I'm not working class, So to politicians I am not worth anything.

[madfloridian]

44. Now that is breaking my heart.

:hug:

It really is. I don't know what to say.

:hug::grouphug:

[Zodiak]

49. keep pushing economic populism

that would be the best thing we can do....and rail agaist those Democrats who slice the throats of the poor to pay their corporate masters a blood sacrifice and call it "centrism".

[AzDar]

51. Loathsome, EVIL legislation..it should NEVER be forgotten...

perhaps it can be remedied now.

[leftofthedial]

53. A few progressive Democrats represent Americans

the "centrists" are just a slightly different breed of repuke--preferable, but just barely.

[SOS]

54. imho

The Democratic Party must always side with the working men and women of the United States.
No exceptions.
Let the Republicans be the Wall Street lackeys.
When some Democrats side with Citibank and MBNA over wage earners, this voter takes notice and votes accordingly.

It's a shame we can't put this divisive power struggle behind us and unite under the concept:

The interests of the American people always come first.

[geiger]

57. I have decided to go to battle with my bank; pls help if you can.

None of the Ohio Congressmen and women I have worked with are on the blue dog list. I would appreciate any of you who are willing to contact your representatives about this also; I have worked on political campaigns for over twenty years, and I think our representatives are generally responsive and try to deliver good constituent service. If you cut and pasted my story and added a short note, I think it would help. I have never asked for anything for myself, although I once had a short-stint paying political gig. I am trying to sell a house in a small house-flooded town in Ohio. Here's my story.... I'm no longer paralyzed with fear, I am mad as hell. I want to buy my children their next bikes and I'm worried about by ability to save for their college educations.

Short and long of it: I got an offer on my house and then the bank wouldn't negotiate (got an offer 3 thousand less than I owe in a depressed market). They wouldn't "negotiate" until I voluntarily dismissed a pending bankruptcy, so I did, and now they're telling me it takes 6 to 8 weeks to approve a "short sale," a period of time longer than a real estate contract lasts. They were going to foreclose on the house for a bid as low as $60,000. If my buyers walk away, everyone loses, as far as I am concerned.

As a matter of reference, I need to explain the nature of my Chapter 13 bankrupty. I was proposing a 100 percent payback of bills after simultaneously losing a job and renters in the same year (it took me three tries to find an attorney who was knowledgeable enough about the new laws to be able to take my case). Becoz I recently had gotten married, the new bankruptcy laws require bringing in my new husband's income into the monthly payoff amount even though he is not party to the bankruptcy (we'd been married less than a year when I started bankruptcy proceedings; I never imagined being out of paying work so long--11 months). The Court-appointed trustee balked at the budget amount I thought we could afford every month, because they want 100 percent, and they want it in three years (or up to a maximum of five), if they think they can get it. I have worked continuously since the age of twelve, if not always for money or the greatest pay, but I am no slacker. Even if they garnished my wages, they would have only been able to take 25 percent of what they wanted me, along with my husband, to pay, indicating that the law is clearly in conflict with itself.

As a further absurdity, if we were to divorce, even if we continued to live with each other, with Ohio's new constitutional "non-recognition" ammendment of any communal but non-consecrated (same sex or not) relationship as marriage, I could do a chapter seven bankruptcy and have the bulk of the debt "forgiven." I've been trying to pay back EVERYTHING AND get the most money I can for my house!

I was promised a "short sale" form (request to sell for less than what is owed due to circumstances beyond one's control) via fax within 48 hours last Tuesday, the title company was promised a full payoff amount within 72 hours, and neither one of us have heard back. The house was supposed to close TODAY, Monday, November 27, 2006.

The company is Washington Mutual and I see scores of complaints against them on the internet. I tried working out a payment plan with them months ago and they claimed not to have received certain documentation from me even though I have all the documentation and fax confirmation printouts that show otherwise. They are not acting in good faith and are treating me like I am not.

I have written previously that the new bankruptcy laws are a travesty.

[madfloridian]

55. I found the Blue Dog's letter to Hastert. Shame on them.

It is in pdf format. It is much the same text as the letter from the New Dem Coalition, so I will just put the names and the ending.

http://www.abiworld.org/pdfs/bluedog.pdf

In closing, we encourage you to expedite consideration of this legislation in the House of
Representatives. We appreciate your attention to this matter and look forward to working with you to
ensure passage of the Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention and Consumer Protection Act as quickly as
possible.

Sincerely,

Jim Matheson
John Tanner
Jim Cooper
Allen Boyd
Dennis Cardoza
Lincoln Davis
Steve Israel
David Scott
Stephanie Herseth
Ed Case
Leonard Boswell
Ken Salazar
Ellen Tauscher
Marion Berry
Sanford Bishop
Bud Cramer
Collin Peterson
Jim Costa
Mike Thompson
Harold Ford, Jr
Dennis Moore
John Barrow
Mike Ross
Mike Michaud
Joe Baca
Jane Harman
Mike McIntye

[madfloridian]

56. Here are 6 who signed both letters..New Dems and Blue Dogs

Ellen Tauscher
Harold Ford, Jr.
Ed Case
Stephanie Herseth
Mike McIntyre
Dennis Moore

There may be more, but I did a side by side comparison.

Just an observation...I saw this yesterday;

"Two Democratic representatives, Mark Udall from Colorado and Ellen Tauscher of California, have introduced a bill into Congress that would add 80,000 troops to the end-strength of the active Army. Currently, this bill has no support from the Defense Department."

http://www.thestate.com/mld/state/news/opinion/16099568.htm

[Joanne98]

58. We need to UNDUE that....

[Cocoa]

59. why are you posting this?

everyone pretty much knows this, and it's kind of gratuitous.

Are you going to go back and remind us of every big conflict within the party from the past 6 years?

[madfloridian]

62. Why don't you worry about the bill instead of why I posted it?

Everytime I post something, someone says "why are you posting this.?"

I never ask anyone that. Betcha I need to go around and ask that some, too.

Old stuff, yes. But many do not realize the ones who wrote the letters to Hastert, and it is important to know that.

I post it because these are the people who are constantly taking us more to the right, doing the corporate bids and not paying attention to the people.

Things they have said since the election indicate that they are not going to give up the rightward turn. So I think it is important to be aware.

[Cocoa]

63. can the bill be repealed?

is there any movement to do that?

If not, what can we do.

I'd respect that approach more. It would make me think the person really cared about the bill, and is not using the bill as an excuse for an existing vendetta.

[geiger]

65. Write your representatives

please see my reply #57 to this post.

[Cocoa]

67. is there any existing proposal to repeal the bill?

is there any "good" dem that has proposed repealing it?

Or do we ignore the "good" dems and focus on identifying the "bad" ones?

Is this really about the bill, or is it about identifying "bad" dems over and over?

[madfloridian]

76. This is about being honest about what our party has been doing...

to its people. Very few realize the full implications of this bill, but the ones who voted for it surely did.

Everytime we point out that we need to watch the direction we are headed, we get told to accept it there is nothing we can do.

No more.

[madfloridian]

66. The amendments that were rejected can now be added.

Or least we have the power to try now.

Here are the amendments rejected by all the Republicans, and enough Democrats to kill them....if they were enacted the wrong people would not suffer from the bill.

03-Mar
On the Amendment S.Amdt. 42
Schumer Amdt. No. 42; To limit the exemption for asset protection trusts.
REJECTED

03-Mar
On the Amendment S.Amdt. 49
Durbin Amdt. No. 49; To protect employees and retirees from corporate practices that deprive them of their earnings and retirement savings when a business files for bankruptcy.
REJECTED

03-Mar
On the Amendment S.Amdt. 38
Durbin Amdt. No. 38; To discourage predatory lending practices.
REJECTED

03-Mar
On the Amendment S.Amdt. 37
Nelson (FL) Amdt. No. 37; To exempt debtors from means testing if their financial problems were caused by identity theft.
REJECTED

03-Mar
On the Amendment S.Amdt. 31
Dayton Amdt. No. 31.; To limit the amount of interest that can be charged on any extension of credit to 30 percent.
REJECTED
(In other words, your interest can go as high as they want it to go. One of my credit cards, paid right on time always...went up to 23% recently..because they could)

This is the biggie:

02-Mar
On the Amendment S.Amdt. 32
Corzine Amdt. No. 32; To preserve existing bankruptcy protections for individuals experiencing economic distress as caregivers to ill or disabled family members.
REJECTED
(Can you imagine the suffering that can arise from this?)

02-Mar
On the Amendment S.Amdt. 28
Kennedy Amdt. No. 28.; To exempt debtors whose financial problems were caused by serious medical problems from means testing.
REJECTED

02-Mar
On the Amendment S.Amdt. 29
Kennedy Amdt. No. 29; To provide protection for medical debt homeowners.
REJECTED

02-Mar
On the Amendment S.Amdt. 15
Akaka Amdt. No. 15; To require enhanced disclosure to consumers regarding the consequences of making only minimum required payments in the repayment of credit card debt, and for other purposes.
REJECTED

Vital one:

02-Mar
On the Amendment S.Amdt. 17
Feingold Amdt. No. 17.; To provide a homestead floor for the elderly.
REJECTED
Here is an explanation of that one:
""In States such as Florida and Texas, there is a homestead exemption with an unlimited dollar value, meaning that any money invested in a home cannot be obtained by creditors. I should note, of course, that this creates other problems, which I will address in a few minutes. But other States allow a very limited value homestead exemption. In many States, the amount of equity a homeowner can protect in bankruptcy has lagged far behind the dramatic rise in home values in recent years. For example, in the State of Ohio, the homestead exemption is only $5,000, and in the Presiding Officer's State of North Carolina, the homestead exemption is $10,000. In this day and age, those paltry exemptions will do no good. We obviously have a problem, and it is hitting our older friends and family members the hardest.
Think about it: In these low homestead exemption States, even indigent elderly homeowners who own a home free and clear worth only $30,000 or $40,000 cannot file for chapter 7 bankruptcy without losing their home."

One more as this is getting too long:

"01-Mar
On the Amendment S.Amdt. 16
Durbin Amdt. No. 16, As Modified.; To protect service members and veterans from means testing in bankruptcy, to disallow certain claims by lenders charging usurious interest rates to servicemembers, and to allow servicemembers to exempt property based on the law of the State of their premilitary residence.
REJECTED"

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/3/6/63144/06015

[onenote]

68. and we should urge Democratic Senators to support amending the bill

Absolutely. Most of those amendments lost by margins of around 40-60 (give or take a couple of votes). If the newly elected Democrats would support the amendments, the margin would be cut by more than 50%. We'd still need to persuade a few Democrats who voted against the amendments the first time to vote for them, but its worth a shot.

[madfloridian]

69. The Democrats were instrumental in getting them rejected...

I doubt it matters to most of them at all. Two groups sent letters to Hastert urging the bill be brought to the floor.

I have little hope it can be changed, but it needs to continue to be revisited. It is dooming a lot of people in our country to possible homelessness and lack of medical care.

I will continue to push for change, but so many will not change. There's a reason the amendments failed...the GOP did not care about the people of the country and their needs, and two groups of Democrats were more impressed with big business than people who might be hurting.

I think it will be that way for a while.

[geiger]

64. you couldn't be more right

in my own state, our new D-Governor elect thinks it's necessary to "reach out" to establishment Republicans, who have been fucking us over for the last twelve years. The appeasement has got to stop. It gets us nowhere. Here, they still hold on to apportionment boards and the majority in the state legislature. And God Bless my new Governor and God Bless Nancy Pelosi, but why does she have to say she'll oversee the most ethical Congress in history. That'd be easy by any recent standard.

Carville couldn't have been more right when he said we should have spent our entire line of credit. Now we have to play footsie with Republicans who are masters of out-maneuvering us. With the mood of this country, we should have won by a landslide. People like Karl Rove weren't bothered at all by the election results ("in line with historical mid-year election cycles during times of war," he said), and Bush almost seemed relieved. They can shift their tactics and figure out a new way to lie and steal.

It's sickening.

[madfloridian]

70. You lost me when you brought Carville into it.

He did not tell the truth about the expenditures, and he hurt his own credibility.

We had so much against us, yet we won by a large amount. Hotline Journal and others sites printed the truth....there were only 4 races that might have been helped by more money.

I am sorry but the word Carville will always and forever carry negative connotations in my mind now. He and his buddy Greenberg.

That lost me. He hurt our party, our grassroots, and he did not tell the truth about the DNC chairman this last week or so. We are in this mess because of consultants like Carville who have spent too much time destroying good Democrats and not enough time shutting up.

[geiger]

72. tangential, nevertheless,

certain Dems have been criticizing Carville for saying we should have spent our whole line of credit (DNC). All he meant to say is every campaign needs to be fought like it's your first and your last. Nothing else matters.

The fact we didn't win by the landslide we deserved is disturbing.

[madfloridian]

75. You must have missed his call for the chairman to step down.

You must have missed when he made the insults on TV. He called for Dean to step down right after we won, and he said Harold Ford should replace him.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/643

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/652

If you want the way his statements were debunked, read this.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/11/17/141326/46

Here we all are, enjoying a pretty doggoned big win. And Carville asks for the chairman to step down. It started the tension.

[OzarkDem]

71. Quite nervy to attack Podesta and Pelosi

Podesta was absolutely correct when he sent the email that was critical of the legislation. CAP did an excellent analysis of it. That the New Dems would attack him for it is more than just whiny, its offensive.

Hoyer & Co. haven't learned much since then, all the more reason to watch them and support Pelosi.

[sampsonblk]

74. Keep posting the truth!

Obviously some here don't like it. But its not enough to be in power, its also important to do what's right.

[NVMojo]

80. Harry Reid, who owed stock in Citi at the time, also voted for this heinous

thing

[madfloridian]

81. Just posted the new members of both groups, and marked duplicates.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/701

I intend to keep an eye out on their votes.

[madfloridian]

83. I don't like the idea of Bush meeting with these two groups...

I think he is doing it for divisive reasons, and I think these two groups know that is why he is doing it.

I notice he is not asking to meet with the Progressive Caucus. Why don't the other two just say no? That would be the correct way unless Bush offered to meet with all Democrats.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3003816

[fujiyama]

85. This legislation was garbage

and there was not one good reason to pass it. It was the perfect example of payback legislation for major contributors and protection for an industry that acts like a bunch of thugs.

Absolutely inexcusable.

[talk hard]

86. we should look forward, not back

congress should look at fixing it.
that's what we should ask them to do instead of just bitching about it and dividing people.