As a matter of fact McClurkingate is NOT a non-issue.

[dailykoff]

It's a false issue, just like the bogus "sexism" supposedly directed against the Clintons. I mean please.

Anyway it's an important distinction because a false issue is a deliberate deception engineered specifically to deceive the electorate and sow division among a candidate's supporters.

Do I think it's working? No, because I notice the only ones buying it are the same ones relentlessly promoting it, and they exactly what they're doing. Well so do we and they're convincing no one.

Handshake anyone?

[Bluebear]

1. It's a false issue to you because you could care less about it. I mean please.

[dailykoff]

3. It's a false issue because it's a phony issue

deliberately promoted to achieve the appearance of a legitimate "concern," which it pretty clearly isn't.

[Bluebear]

7. It isn't in your bigot-tolerating mind, that's evident.

[casus belli]

67. IF he wins the nomination, will you expect him to address GLBT community concerns?

And, if so, why do you spend so much time trying to sink his support?

Let's be clear, I understand why the McClurkin incident is painful to the GLBT community. I understand why they want him to address the issue directly to find out exactly where he stands on the issue, and I'll be unequivocal - I think he made a stupid mistake.

But, I do not think Obama has any ulterior motives, I do not think he has any agenda against or in opposition to the gay community - and if I did, I could not and would not give him my support. There are, and have been similar missteps by the Clinton's in the past - particularly when it comes to selling short the promises they made to the GLBT community when campaigning for president which they largely abandoned in favor of watered down versions which offered little of the original promises. BUT, you would never hear me call them disingenuous in their support of the GLBT community.

[Bluebear]

77. "I understand...but I do not think this and I do not think that"

Well, I think his campaign very knowingly pandered to Christian conservative South Carolina coters and threw gays under the bus, end of story for me.

[VotesForWomen]

69. well put. nt

[jackson_dem]

2. Why is he losing GLBT voters by a 2:1 margin?

Are they racist too or do they know something Obamites have blinded themselves to?

[dailykoff]

4. The train seems to have left the station without them.

Doesn't it?

[jackson_dem]

6. They got run over by the train when it pulled into the station

[DRoseDARs]

65. Well, there wasn't a bus nearby so he had to throw Teh Gheys under something...

I'm not keen on either Obama or Hillary for different reasons, so spare me BOTH camp supporters. I'll hold my nose and vote for whichever wins the Dem nom.

[LordJFT]

26. Hillary's slipping in the rest of her strongholds, I wouldn't be surprised if she's losing GLBT

support as well.

[Occam Bandage]

74. Well, polling shows that they aren't voting on GLBT issues by a 3:1 margin,

and that they believe both are progressive on gay-rights issues. So I'd look elsewhere.

[mondo joe]

5. Non-issue to you. Issue to me. But you won't need my vote so don't worry about it.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bluebear]

11. You said it.

[goldcanyonaz]

9. Oh goody, another Let's throw Gays under the bus so we can move forward thread..

How hopeful and unifying.

:woohoo:

[hulklogan]

10. Oh please, another straight person making excuses for anti-gay bigotry

:eyes: The fun around here never ends.

[Skip Intro]

12. Back of the bus, anyone?

please

[Beausoir]

15. You got that right! Obamanation will throw anyone under the bus. Anyone except Oprah and McClurkin

[dailykoff]

20. If anybody throws LBGT issues under the bus it will be the Clintons.

DOMA, gays in the military not, advising Kerry to sign on to the marriage bill, whatever works for them.

[SIMPLYB1980]

13. K&R for stupidity.

[Beausoir]

14. Yeah! Damn those false gays and their false civil rights!

How DARE they besmirch Saint Obama!

The nerve of those people!

And...you can take your false handshake and jam it.

[dailykoff]

18. Speaking of false handshakes...

"handshakegate" was another false issue from Keep Hate Alive campaign.

[theHandpuppet]

16. If there's a "Most Ignorant Thread" poll running...

Can I nominate this one?? Pretty please?

[Bluebear]

17. That's not fair.

He has posted other similar threads that should be in the running too.

[NMMNG]

19. False issue?

Like "fairy tale" and "Jesse Jackson" when Big Dog made said references?

[dailykoff]

21. I would say Bill's racist statements were issues

because they were deliberately provocative and part of a strategy.

[NMMNG]

23. Says who?

:shrug:

[dailykoff]

27. Me. I heard Hilly racebaiting in her Jan 13 MTP appearance

so I know it was part of the strategy.

[NMMNG]

31. So I'm supposed to take *your* word that it was racebaiting/racism,

Yet you refuse to take the word of countless LGBT people that the McClurkin incident was homophobic?


:wtf:

[dailykoff]

50. That is my analysis.

Yes.

[NMMNG]

54. I don't consider your analysis to be worth jack shit

Get over yourself.

[dailykoff]

56. Then why are you crapping all over it?

Let me guess, to make sure the candidate DENNIS BACKS loses to a neocon?

[NMMNG]

61. Oooooooh, Dennis endorsed him

Like I give a shit. Endorsements don't mean squat to me. I'm not a member of Oprah's book club.


What I'm saying is that you spend so much time belittling the opinions of others, telling them they shouldn't be upset over this or that. Why the fuck should anybody take what you say seriously? Why are your opinions about what is racist any more valid than our opinions on what is homophobic?

If you want to treat us like shit then you shouldn't expect to be treated with any respect whatsoever. Our feelings and concerns don't mean jack shit to you so why the hell should yours mean anything to us?

Don't bother replying because I'm sick to death of being abuse by you.

[readmoreoften]

22. Well... we are false, inferior, ersatz people, so what do you expect?

[dailykoff]

25. I'm mainly talking about the role of this story in the campaign.

You might buy into or not, but I'm talking about how it was promoted as an issue in the first place, and by whom.

[Solon]

28. Now, THAT is a false issue...

The first folks to bring it up were GLBT people, so fuck off!

Shit, Obama was my fallback guy(after Edwards and Kucinich), and then he scratched himself off the list due to the McClurkin fuckup, and you have the fucking audacity to fucking lecture us on "real" issues. Fuck you!

[dailykoff]

29. Which GLBT people?

The ones doing oppo research for Hilly, perchance?

[Solon]

33. No, the Human Rights Campaign and a couple of Gay publications...

were the first to bring it up, BEFORE the concert. Making this out as some type of Hillary psyops is just insulting.

[dailykoff]

36. The same "HRC" that told us Iran was slaughtering gay children by the score?

Real reliable outfit, this "HRC."

[Solon]

39. Iran actually does execute Homosexuals...

its a capital offense, I don't see why you would bring that up. Paradoxically, on transgendered issues, Iran is actually more "progressive" than even the United States.

[readmoreoften]

43. No they're executed in Iran occasionally and they're being slaughtered in Iraq by the score.

The Human Rights Campaign is the nation's oldest LGBT (mostly L&G) lobbyist group. You may be thinking of the IGLHRC. How many dead kids is too few to be concerned about, by the way?

[readmoreoften]

46. You do realize that saying "reliable outfit, this HRC" is like saying "reliable outfit, this NAACP"

It sounds extremely, EXTREMELY bigoted. This is a relatively conservative group that is 20 years old. Just because it has the same initials as Hillary Clinton, doesn't mean it's a conspiracy.

[dailykoff]

48. Promoting that story when Ahmedinajad was in the US was repellent.

They are a political outfit doing somebody's dirty work and don't try to deny it.

[NMMNG]

37. Wrong

Lots of us were supporters of Kucinich, Edwards and other candidates. The problem was that Obama supporters chose to automatically tag anybody who didn't support Obama or who spoke against Obama as a "Hillbot". Nobody ever wanted to engage in discussion with us, ask who we might actually be supporting (as if they even cared) or try to reach us. They chose to beat us over the head with talking points, accuse us of racism/anti-religion accusations and deem us "Hillbots" instead.

[dailykoff]

41. Right, like you were just drawn by Hilly's charisma.

Tell me another one.

[NMMNG]

52. I supported Kucinich originally

When he dropped out I went to Edwards. When he dropped out I went to Hillary (I'll be damned if I'll vote for Obama). Fuck Charisma. I go by platforms.

[QC]

30. Obama was my #2, after Edwards, until the McClurkin fiasco.

I liked him a lot until then, but seeing the blatant, ugly, raw politics of the thing made it impossible for me to trust the man. Now, if he told me it was dark outside I would go check to be sure.

[dailykoff]

32. These are not the words of a serious voter.

I'm not making judgments, but I do not believe any conscientious Dem, liberal or progressive living through the last seven years would hang this decision on such a foolish thread.

[Bluebear]

34. "I'm not making judgments" - We are. You are a bigot-tolerating ass.

[dailykoff]

38. If I were to make a judgment,

it would be about your motives. But I am not making a judgment.

[Bluebear]

40. You don't know jack shit about me nor do you care.

Everyone must have a "motive" to oppose your candidate. You're a bigot-tolerating ass, bordering on being a bigot yourself. Your excusing this issue is disgraceful.

[Solon]

42. This is just stupid...

I had a friend try to commit suicide, right in front of me, because even her own family couldn't accept her for what she is, and you come here and question are motives? STFU already!

[QC]

44. Actually, I think the same of you.

I think that you are a bandwagon-jumper here selling your empty, devious Elmer Gantry of a candidate. You could just as easily be pushing high colonics or wheat grass juice or Tuvanese throat-singing lessons or whatever else if someone told you it was trendy at the moment.

I say that because I simply cannot believe that a conscientious progressive would:

1. Blithely dismiss real people's concerns just because they are not his own concerns, or
2. Believe that a timid corporate centrist like Barack Obama is the second coming of Mother Jones.

I have been voting for twenty-four years now, always for the Democrat, even such disasters as Mondale and Dukakis. I will thank you not to make judgments regarding my conscience or commitment.

[dailykoff]

47. "real people's concerns"

There are lots of real people in Hillaryland who turn out not to be so real after all.

[QC]

49. I could say the same about the busy little obamazombies here who, surely by the purest

coincidence, act and sound exactly like knuckledragging freeper trash.

And I am not a Hillary supporter. Why don't you open your eyes and check out the sig line. I know that you probably find binaries very comforting, as simpletons always do, but the fact that someone is not worshipping at Obama's altar does not mean that he supports Hillary.

[dailykoff]

51. So which wedge issues are "obamazombies" promoting like clockwork?

Besides that silly old genocide, torture and domestic spying everyone's so tired of hearing about?

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PurityOfEssence]

35. Personally, I don't look at it so much as a gay issue as a religious one

The real issue was pandering to a religious community to snag a bloc of votes by kindling some racial and cultural identifying. Ignoring a nasty strain of prejudice within such a community was an unintended result.

What people will do and say in the name of religion is WAY beyond what they'll do and say for any other reason or with any other justification, and that's why it's so dangerous in politics.

Much as I begrudgingly see that some simply don't see it as as huge a sore as I and others do, people also need to accept that, for some of us, it's a very REAL thing: it's about character and morality. In the final tallying, it's the human decency and strength of character that are so very important in a president, and much as effective vote-getting is a fine attribute in a leader, the truth to one's principles are what dictate his/her actions when at the helm.

For many of us, it's not a ginned-up excuse to rave and resist, so try to factor that into your worldview. It may be a false issue for some, but for many of us it's really, really real.

[dailykoff]

45. Yes, that makes sense.

I can see that whatever its origins, it now has a reality and has become an issue. The point I'm trying to make though is that from my perspective it's just another cynical ploy -- more successful than the others, maybe -- to turn a fairly insignificant matter into a big red wedge to peel off Obama voters.

What's particularly disturbing is how little regard these ploys show for the general election in Nov., and for us, if we get stuck with McCain because of some stupid wedge issue the Clintons helped promote.

[Solon]

53. So now you consider homophobia to be an "insignificant matter", is that it?

what a fucking disgusting post. :puke:

[dailykoff]

55. In this particular race, i.e. the Dem primary, YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

YOU GOT IT BUSTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[NMMNG]

57. EVERYBODY READ THIS POST!

dailykoff thinks homophobia is an insignificant matter.

Maybe this is why we cannot and will not vote for your candidate. EVER.

With supporters like you, your candidate doesn't need enemies.

[dailykoff]

58. Which you just misrepresented, as usual.

I said "in this particular race." Anyway I got your number pal. There's lots of your type around.

[NMMNG]

59. There are lots of your type around too

They're called bigots.

Homophobia does not take a vacation just because you choose to ignore it for the sake of your chosen candidate's coronation.

[ErnestoG]

92. She's just cranky that her establishment candidate is being outpaced.

[Neshanic]

60. Buffy, their argument goes in circles. For example.

We LOVE the gays! We support you sooooooo much. Our candidate thinks his platform is the BEST. He knows your pain, he will do right by you. What? You want equal rights? Oh well...he has a plan that the states make the decisions. What's that? You want him to say that? Uhhhh that's kind of a wedge issue so can you keep it down on that, but all the same he LOVES the gays! The two preachers that are part of a "cure group?" Oh that... thats just politics....why are you so demanding? Jesus if you are going to be that way...you do not appreciate all WE are doing for YOU! It sounds like nothing makes you gays happy! Really what is your problem? Don't you know this is bigger than your issues?

Oh by the way we LOVE the gays!

[NMMNG]

62. Yeah, I know

And I keep making the mistake of falling into the trap. I'm going to stop it as they're just driving me crazy. They have no concern whatsoever for us. I'll give it one try then off to the Ignore List they go. I'm tired of being abused.


Happy Valentines Day, btw. :hi:

[SIMPLYB1980]

73. Well said.

[mondo joe]

66. Well I've been saying you don't give a shit about GLBT people - good of you to admit it.

Took you long enough.

[Tektonik]

63. The only reason it's not having much of an impact is the lack of media coverage on the issue

The media, much like you, could give half a shit about GLBT issues.

It is not a non-issue. I maybe would drop the issue if it was ONLY McClurkin, but instead Obama has to account for Donnie, Caldwell, and a couple of other interesting choices he's made (http://news.lavenderliberal.com/category/democrats/barack-obama/ also check the previous entires apart from that linked page).

[donheld]

64. Hold your ground dailykoff. This gay man agrees with you

They've taken an issue with a couple of questionable people who worked for Obama and blew it WAY WAY WAY out of wack. Obama has been a very good friend to the gay community. So he befriended a couple people who think we can be cured. Obama has NEVER said we need cured in fact he has stood up for us. He has a very progressive position on gay and lesbian issues. No he doesn't promise us everything we want, but nobody promises that. We all know Hillary has her issues we wish she'd adjust. DOMA, DADT, yada yada yada. I feel like Obama is the best one to be our president come January.

Some of you have chosen to bully anyone who disagrees with you, but that will not work with me. I've thought about this long and hard. I've talked to a lot of other gay men and know what I think is fine. As it stands now I will be supporting Barack Obama. That's my choice and that's that.

[Bluebear]

68. What's interesting is you don't support those who disagree with you to "hold their ground"

No, we are "bullies". I never thought I would hear this coming from you.

[NMMNG]

70. Which of the Obullies is calling us bullies?

[donheld]

71. If you just read the post I received from one of your

If that isn't bullying then nobody has ever been bullied.

[donheld]

72. If you a read the post I received from one of your whatevers

If that isn't bullying then nobody has ever been bullied.

[Bluebear]

75. Oe of "my"? Look, put me on ignore, I'll do the same, have a nice life.

[dailykoff]

76. Thank you!

I hope that will help anyone who's actually been swayed by the fake outrage and not just pretending to be to snap out of it.

[Solon]

78. I cannot believe you, as a gay man, would agree with someone who considers Homophobia to be...

insignificant. That's just puzzling to me.

[dailykoff]

79. And I cannot believe you expect anyone to take anything you say seriously

since you apparently can't parse a six-word sentence.

[Solon]

80. Actually, I'm surprised you have lasted this long, and haven't been TS'ed yet...

I had my best friend try to commit suicide, IN FRONT OF ME, because of bullshitters like McClurkin, so take you fucking "fake outrage" and shove it up your ass! I HATE, absolutely HATE, homophobes and those who both excuse them and those who enable them. This is PERSONAL, period. There is NOTHING fake here.

[dailykoff]

81. I was pointing out that you misrepresented what I said.

I'm sorry about your friend.

[Solon]

82. Do I give a shit?

Seriously, dig yourself into a deeper hole, I fucking DARE you! In this race, primary or general, homophobia is not, and should never be an insignificant issue. I don't give a flying fuck IF your candidate is hurt by it, he deserves it.

[dailykoff]

83. I do. (n/t)

[Solon]

85. You do what?

Seriously, what the fuck are you talking about now?

FUCK IT, I'll answer this in my own post, as an edit:

To you, GLBT people are to "take it on the chin" during the primaries and general elections, and that's that. To me, you are a hater of people born different from yourself.

[dailykoff]

88. I do give a shit about this election, US crimes against humanity

including genocide, and the truth, and that's why I'm pointing out your misrepresentations.

[Solon]

89. And so you have to makd light of people's GENUINE outrage over this issue...

and shit on GLBT people in the process. What the fuck is the point of this thread but just to tell GLBT people and their TRUE friends to STFU?

You dug yourself in this hole, and I didn't misrepresent shit. If it wasn't the primary, it would be the general, if it wasn't the general it would be the mid-terms. I've heard all the excuses, and they are a bunch of bullshit.

[dailykoff]

91. Look you're not making any sense.

I'm sorry about your friend but that has nothing to do with Obama or with me.

[Solon]

94. OK, Let me see if I can get this through your thick skull...

Obama sponsored something akin to a HATE RALLY against GLBT folks, and you have a audacity to claim that people like YOU, who EXCUSE this shit, have nothing to do with our culture of intolerance towards my friend, who attempted suicide because of that same culture.

[dailykoff]

95. My understanding is that McClurkin was an entertainer at a campaign rally.

I don't see this as endorsement of McClurkin's personal philosophy.

[Solon]

97. He had a fucking HALF HOUR to preach about how "God saved him from homosexuality" and the crowd...

roared in approval. That is simply inexcusable, it was a fucking HATE RALLY!

[dailykoff]

99. Were you there?

Or are you relying on "GLBT leaders" like the "HRC" to spin the thing for you? Somebody's been pouring banana oil in your ear bigtime.

[Solon]

102. You know there was video, don't you?

You gotta love it, first McClurkin talks about equal rights and all that shit, then he talks about judgment and sin, and then he victoriously says: "God delivered me from Homosexuality", while, in the same speech, he claims that people shouldn't call him a homophobe, a bigot, and that hypocrisy in the church is a sin itself. I think the irony is lost on him. This is only a snippet, but here you go.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dUp16hFzY8

[dailykoff]

104. Thanks, I didn't. But here's the problem:

I'll watch the video tomorrow as I'm on dial-up at home. Here's the bigger issue: I don't see how anyone concerned with human rights, GLBT or otherwise, could seriously endorse Hillary, as she's spent her whole life profiting financially from the labor of exploited workers in sweatshops (WalMart) and politically from directing the US military to kill thousands of innocent men, women and children (Iraq, Afghanistan, and lots of other places). The rest is PR.

[Solon]

106. Who the fuck said anything about supporting Hillary?

I hate Hillary, but you must understand, I hate Obama as well. I don't have a candidate in the race, they dropped out. I'm arguing against you for the simple reason that your argument is full of shit and it is an argument being used again my GLBT brothers and sisters, period.

[dailykoff]

107. Hillary is the one sounding the alarm you are answering.

You may not like her but you're carrying water for her whether you know it or not. That's basically my whole point.

[Solon]

109. What. The. Fuck?

I'm not carrying anyone's water, and you insult me by even insinuating that. You are an ass, seriously. I told you once, and I'll tell you again, I HATE homophobes AND their enablers, that includes you too dipshit.

[dailykoff]

110. Accusing Obama of homophobia is carrying water for Hilly

particularly here, particularly now, and I find it hard to believe you're unaware of that.

[Solon]

111. I never said Obama was a homphobe, I said he enables homophobia...

and coddles homophobes. Second, I don't really give a shit about your opinion on this, I will never support someone who helps put an asshole like McClosetCase on a fucking stage.

[Solon]

86. In addition, you aren't sorry for my friend...

if you were, you wouldn't be harping on this as "fake outrage" so take you apologies and shove them where the sun don't shine.

[dailykoff]

93. Good grief.

I know nothing about your friend except what you just mentioned. I told you what I felt. Get a grip.

[Solon]

96. Yeah, and you were told off for it, that's me getting a fucking grip....

Listen up, and listen well, you are WRONG! Period, end of story. I don't give a shit what you felt.

[dailykoff]

98. I'm wrong to say I'm sorry about your friend?

What would you like me to say?

[Solon]

100. That you were wrong that this is fake outrage.

My outrage is quite genuine, thank you very fucking much. We've been told that this was "fake outrage" since the very fucking beginning of this fucking fiasco. And now, months later, Obama supporters still harp on this fucking meme as if it meant something. You all can burn in a lake of fire, for all I care.

[dailykoff]

101. Genuine it might be but it's misdirected.

Obama had nothing to do with your friend and neither did McClurkin as far as I can tell. And neither did I.

[Solon]

103. I will agree that they had nothing DIRECTLY to do with what she tried to do...

It had more to do with her Mormon church, her family, and our homophobic culture. However, and this is key, but coddling people like McClurkin perpetuates those same homophobic currents within our culture, and makes things worse, overall, for all GLBT people.

There are two battles in the fight for GLBT equality, the first, and most prominent for people, are legal rights, the second, which is damn near as important, is changing the culture to being accepting to GLBT people. I don't see how Obama, you, or McClurkin helped in that, all of you I consider obstacles in the way of acceptance, and should be run over.

[dailykoff]

105. Okay but I don't see how Hillary is going to change any of that

particularly the Mormon part. It's unfortunate that such organizations exist but they're legal. Anyway as I said above i don't see how anyone with a genuine interest in human rights could support Hillary as she's spent her life exploiting and killing innocent men, women and children across the globe.

[okasha]

84. Stockholm syndrome.

n/t

[terrya]

87. I find the "ex-gay" movement and its shills an obscenity.

And I was angered when one of them appeared at a fundraiser for a Democratic candidate.

But apparently talking about it bores some people here to death.

So, what fucking ever.

[NMMNG]

108. Gee, maybe someone can post more pics of Obama

preaching about HOPE and CHANGE at a fucking rally. That always seems to get everybody's panties moist again.

Sorry if life and death issues of real people are such a snooze.

[ErnestoG]

90. The desperation of the Hillary camp is getting hilarious.

[Zenlitened]

112. Are some "supporters" of Sen. Obama in a competition...

... to see who can come across as more of a jackass? :shrug:

P.S. Starting a new flamewar to rail against "relentlessly promoting" the issue... I'd think that sort of brilliance just couldn't be topped. But then I read your subsequent posts, advising others on the rationality and impartiality of your judgments and analysis.

Sheer genius!

And by that, I don't mean genius. :crazy:

[NMMNG]

113. Well said.

:thumbsup: