Should The State Be Allowed To Exceed The Cap On Virtual Schools?

[Dinger]

Hell fucking no!

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/W/WI_VIRTUAL_SCHOOLS_WIOL-?SITE=WIMAD&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT


Virtual school applicants likely exceed cap

MADISON, Wis. (AP) -- The number of applicants for virtual schools in Wisconsin could exceed the 5,250 cap set by the state Legislature.

The Department of Public Instruction has notified the virtual schools that there appears to be more interest in online instruction than what's allowed by law. The DPI expects to know for certain by late summer. If the 5,250 cap is exceeded, the state would hold a lottery to decide who gets into the schools.

Advocates for virtual schools are urging lawmakers to remove the enrollment cap set by the Legislature and Gov. Jim Doyle last year.

The cap was enacted after the state's largest teachers union, the Wisconsin Education Association Council, successfully sued Wisconsin Virtual Academy and the Northern Ozaukee School District over the existence of Internet schools.

[DollyM]

1. I don't think the "poll" gives a true picture of the issue . . .

It's not that kids don't need "teachers", they just don't need to all attend public school for their education. We home school, I have a Master's degree, more education than many public school teachers have. I think the response to allowing virtual schools is simply the desire for parents to give their kids a better education in a more safe and loving environment than the public school system. The public school system has been held up as a sacred cow, not to be touched, for many years. If the public school system was ever recognized for being what it is, a large business, there would have been changes made long ago.

[Dinger]

2. So How Do You "Know" You Have "More Education Than Most Public School Teachers Have"?

And public schools have been "Touched" plenty. Sacred cow? I don't think so. Budget cuts are killing us. tommy fucking thompson's QEO hurts too. Private schools, voucher schools, and charter schools want the dollars but not the accountability. They want public money, but not the accountability that is required of public schools. If they want independence and less accountability than public schools they can fund themselves. If they want to compete at a totally equal level, well bring it on. Remember the Florence School District? Public schools a "large business"? Maybe that's what some people want, but REAL educators will fight that all the way. Can public schools duplicate a home schooling environment? No. I am curious what your experience has been with public schools. Sounds like IF you had one, it was likely a bad one. Please don't paint all public schools with the same brush. republicans do that, not Democrats.

[Hannah Bell]

3. yeah, because in the us no one likes big business. who's profiting from this big business

that wouldn't profit from the virtual/charter/ alternative?

[elleng]

5. The poll certainly does NOT give a true picture;

it proposes a gross strawman/joke.

EVERYONE needs teachers. The State has apparently decided that a certain number of students being educated 'differently' is appropriate. SO, why that number, and why not more?

[Wabbajack_]

4. "Hell fucking no!"

Why?

[noamnety]

6. What exactly does your strawman prove?

that you can create push polls as well as fox?

[Jimbo S]

7. Has someone looked into why the demand exceeds the cap?

What do virtual schools offer what the public school don't?

[noamnety]

8. I could hazard some guesses

They give deaf/hoh kids a shot at an equal education, instead of being mainstreamed into a class where they can't understand half of what's being said, and calling that equal.

They give kids who are being bullied a chance at an education free of trauma.

They give kids an opportunity to take classes their neighborhood school can't offer due to low enrollment. My kid did a distance class in Latin - there was definitely not going to be a Latin class at her school. The course offerings can be huge in a virtual school, because you need maybe 20 students statewide to enroll in an obscure course, instead of 20 students in your neighborhood.

They give students who are homebound due to sickness a chance to attend school.

They give students with ADHD an opportunity to pace themselves and take breaks when they need them, instead of being continually yelled at because they can't stay confined to a chair like a prisoner for 8 hours straight.

They give students with asthma a safe environment free of perfume smells. (We've had students taken away in an ambulance because of stuff like this.)

They give really bright students with extreme aspergers a chance to participate in a class environment without being chastised continually for speaking out of turn, making compulsive noises that are distracting to other students, or doing other things that are perfectly normal for them but end up making them isolated and depressed because of others' reactions.

They give students with obvious physical abnormalities a chance at a normal education where they are treated like normal people - even if they use crutches, are obese, have lost their hair, have deformed teeth ... you name it.

They are a path to learning and graduation for kids with such severe behavior issues that they'd likely be expelled for being a danger to others if virtual schools didn't exist.

They give kids an opportunity for a public education without the stress of going through a metal detector and being made to feel like a potential criminal at the start of each morning.

They give gifted students a chance to take a class appropriate for their abilities, instead of pretending that a teacher can effectively do differentiated learning with a classroom of 30 kids with IQs ranging from 70 to 150, with some of those kids having severe behavior issues.

They give remedial kids a chance to work at their own speed instead of being rushed along and never mastering core concepts because the teacher can't hold up the whole class just for them.

In my case, I am doing a degree online because my learning style tends to leave me daydreaming and shut down if I have to sit through lectures. The teachers can talk at me all they want, but I don't retain it the same way as if I read the information - and I prefer to have a chance to gather my thoughts and edit them instead of having to blurt out deep thoughts on the fly without any research as my class participation. Sometimes I take longer to process things and a day after reading something, that's when I've had enough time to reflect on it that I can connect it to other things and make meaningful contributions to discussions. In a traditional classroom, by the time that happens, they are already onto a new subject.

The poll incorrectly claims that virtual schools don't have teachers. I hope the person who put the poll together isn't a teacher, because it's either demonstrating an inability to do critical thinking, or an inability to present facts that interfere with personal agendas. At the least, it's not a poll I would expect to see from a teacher I'd want my kid to have.

[proud2BlibKansan]

9. Wasn't someone just talking about rules and calling posters out?

"At the least, it's not a poll I would expect to see from a teacher I'd want my kid to have."

Ahem: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=219x13181#13202

[noamnety]

10. The rules forbid posts to callout other members

in threads they aren't even participating in.

They do not prohibit a critique of a person's post when they are the OP. This OP showed an inability to accurately represent reality (virtual schools obviously have teachers) because that reality didn't fit their personal agenda. It showed a lack of critical thinking skills.

Those are not qualities I would look for in a teacher - I would opt for a virtual school for my daughter above a traditional neighborhood school if the teachers were like that. That's another reason perhaps that people want to have options, instead of being told by the state "your child MUST be taught by this particular person if you buy a house on this street." Sometimes the teacher that is assigned to them is mentally or emotionally inappropriate for classroom teaching. Misrepresenting facts to fit an agenda would be one of those reasons (intelligent design taught in a science class as reality is an example, white supremacy as fact is an older one). My list focused on reasons the student might not be a good fit for a brick and mortar school, but also sometimes (very rarely, but it happens) a teacher is toxic and it's best to have other options.

I welcome the OP's well-thought out response to the list of examples I gave; I welcome your response to that list as well.

[proud2BlibKansan]

11. The rules also say to avoid personal insults

and you insulted the OP.

I also doubt you are looking for thoughtful responses.

Have a beautiful day. :)

[noamnety]

12. The original post was obviously disingenuous.

None the less, I took time to explain a few of the many reasons that there are a lot of people who prefer virtual schools to brick and mortar schools.

I invite ANYONE to explain why those reasons are not valid. Please, engage with the substance of it.

[fnofsports]

13. A glimpse at what saying "Hell fucking no" really means

I realize this will probably mean little to nothing to you. You feel that everyone benefits from public school and just loves it (or at least tolerates it). You probably believe in one size fits all education, and that we really can teach every kid the exact same way and they will all learn the exact same thing. You believe that every teacher and every public school is simply great and just needs more money to fix the problem (which those damn charter schoolers are taking away). Let me tell you, thats not the case.

To start off with, I was an incredibly intelligent kid. In math I was easily 3 or 4 years ahead by 3rd grade in reading closer to 2 or 3. The problem started off with the fact that the school could only skip me ahead one grade in those subjects, which socially was probably all I was ready for. Now imagine being a little kid, learning what you learned 2 years ago at home, sound boring yet? I was easily ready for algebra by 5th grade, maybe even 4th grade, but instead I got to learn how to do long division... which I learned in second grade. Beyond all that they had me take 5th grade math in 4th grade, just to be forced to repeat 5th grade math in 5th grade... after I aced it during my 4th grade year, averaging somewhere around 98% on homework and slightly lower on tests, say 96% or so). Reading wasn't quite so boring, though it was continually reading stories that were written for someone with far less ability then I had, still it could keep me interested as long as the stories were interesting (the bigger problem being the libraries lack of stories for boys but thats another topic entirely.)

Still that wasn't even my worst problem. Bullying was a far worse problem for me as I felt tortured from about 2nd grade on. By middle school I could expect to be insulted (in a quite bad way) on an hourly basis by students (sometimes more often, sometimes less) and on a daily basis from teachers/other school adults. This caused me to enter a quite deep depression by 7th and 8th grade (6th grade I had a friend, so that made things a bit easier) and become suicidal by high school (if not by that time, I forget the exact moment that it started). Frequently, especcially in middle school, I begged not to have to go to school. I tried to fight the bullies off, but it was pointless as I would generally lose the fight and get the worse punishment.

Still my mom had to send me to the regular public school day after day, there was little other option. Which is not to say she couldn't have homeschooled me (she generally worked 3rd shift most of my childhood life as a nurse, and eventually came to rely almost completely on my stepdad during my high school years), she just had no knowledge on how too and we lived in a community that wasn't exactly friendly to homeschoolers (like many aren't). Now if we tried to move we would end up in the same situation all over again, just any progress that might have been made by me (gaining a friend, either my age or staff) would be lost in the meantime. Back then there weren't options like this, so it was either public school or insanely expensive private school, costing me all my college fund, and probably more.

While obviously not every kid that is going to shut out of this virtual school, by your saying "hell fucking no", is going to be exactly like me. Many will be. Many will be as bright as me with their parents seeing them being bored again, and again, and again by the school circulum. Many of them will be as bullied as me with them entering a deep depression, before they even enter puberty. And all of them will have problems with public school, for one reason or another. See Wal-Mart can say whatever they want and most people won't care. What gets at you is seeing your kid fail, hearing your kid say that the system is failing them, that they are getting tortured every day when they enter school. That is what gets to these parents, not what Wal-Mart is saying, or what most political pundit it saying, but what their kids are experiencing. Maybe we should start listening to those kids?

[Dinger]

14. Oh Christ, You Don't Have A Clue About Me And What I Meant

2 posts? Whatever. What, did a little friend send you over here???

[PeaceNikki]

15. 2 posts or 20,000, there are some valid points there that you've completely dismissed.

But your agenda is pretty clear in your OP.

[Dinger]

16. Two Posts, No Donor Star, The Only Place They Post Is Two Of Mine, Two Different Forums

Fucking creeps me out.

[PeaceNikki]

17. I didn't know that the only other post was to you in a different forum.

That does make it weird. :\

[Dinger]

18. In A Different Unrelated Forum

And their first two posts as well. Yeah, that's kind of strange. Somebody gave them help is my guess.

[fnofsports]

19. Ummm you posted a link to this thread in that forum

And they were about the exact same topic. In fact that post was specifically designed to insult someon... I just wanted to make sure you got the message. I didn't figure you checked this forum that often.

[fnofsports]

20. Care to address my legimate complaints about the school system

I mean I tell my story of how the school system made me suicidal and uninterested to learn, and you dismisses it as just being stalkerish. I can tell you this, its teachers like you that made me afraid to go to school as a child. You don't care about my kind, or at least not as much as you care about teachers jobs.

[Dinger]

21. You Have No Fucking Idea What Kind Of Teacher I Am

You can quit projecting your experiences onto me, and you can quit following me around DU. Maybe we could have gotten off on a better foot. Your accusatory tone and putting words in my mouth is not the way to start.

[fnofsports]

22. Then address my compliants

They are very real and there are a TON of aspie parents out there desperate to find a way out of the public school system. MANY of them homeschool either through virtual charter schools (particularly those in California, where they can't homeschool any other way) or on their own (which is much harder for someone to do). Address these complaints and tell me what parents of kids like me are to do. We don't all know how to navigate the special education/gifted education maze.

[fnofsports]

23. P.S.

Its hardly following you around when you post a link to this topic on that forum.

[noamnety]

25. all we can go on is what you show of yourself here.

Please see the OP, see the post in this thread where you misquote another person in your subject line and never acknowledge or apologize for that, see post 14 regarding accusatory tones be means of introduction.

The way you choose to present yourself here is how you are judged here.

[Dinger]

27. Looks Like We Have A Tag Team

Awwwww.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dinger]

29. DU Rules

Read 'em.

[noamnety]

30. eh

you should probably edit that a bit - we aren't allowed to call people republicans here and honestly people on the left can be bullies and be incapable of critical thinking or rationale debate as well. (I dunno, wouldn't surprise me if the mods delete the entire subthread starting at 14 anyway in which case my point is moot.)

(I wish I could edit my last post to fix some dyslexic typing, but my editing time expired, urgh)

[Dinger]

31. Thank You

The very LAST thing I am is a republican. I've posted here for a long time; I've never been called a republican, ever, especially not by someone who just joined DU . Maybe a cooling off period is in order. I'll start.

[fnofsports]

33. I would prefer a legimate address of complaints

And for you to stop insulting other members in multiple forums.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[noamnety]

24. Your second paragraph could have been written by me.

Or my sister. I maxed out my math classes for elementary school, was placed into 6th grade math in 4th grade. Repeated 6th grade math in 5th grade because the school didn't offer a higher class. I repeated 6th grade math a third year in a row in 6th grade. 7th grade in middle school was a review of 6th grade math. I can't for the life of me understand how anyone can argue that was a more appropriate education for me than taking an online class that would have allowed me to progress and learn some new math skills, which I was craving at that point - I was reading math/logic books for fun in my spare time at that phase in my life.

When my sister complained about not being allowed to take an appropriate level math class, the school responded by putting her in a room by herself with a math textbook AND NO TEACHER, telling her If you're so smart, figure it out herself. That's what she did for math for a year. When I look at the phrasing in the poll in the OP, it makes me cringe, because her reality was that she was given no teacher and no curriculum in a brick and mortar traditional public school, whereas a virtual school would have provided her with an appropriate education and a teacher. How can that be a bad thing? (Wait, I know the answer to that - it's a bad thing because I don't donate to DU.)

I am stunned with the irony of you saying public school was traumatic because not only did the kids torment and insult you, but the teachers did too. And in an effort to convince you public school was the right choice for you - we have a traditional public school teacher chiming in not to address the issues you raised, not to engage in intelligent debate, but to call you "creepy." I think they made your case for you better than you ever could have.

I'm sorry you had to go through that experience. The best gift any teacher (virtual or otherwise) can give a student is to teach them to love learning. It sounds like the school you were at refused or was unable to provide appropriate opportunities for you to learn, and did everything they could to teach you to hate education, at least formal education.

I left my traditional public school after 10th grade and went straight to college, got my BA at 19. I can't figure out any reason someone could argue that an extra two years in my high school would have benefited me. I can't figure out why an alternate education wasn't the best thing for me. The reason there is such a high demand for virtual schools to me is painfully obvious - whether for social or academic reasons, traditional public schools aren't meeting the needs of those kids. Why would anyone want to force them to spend 12 years in a setting that isn't meeting their needs?

We would all be outraged if a doctor didn't meet our needs (for whatever reason) and people argued that we shouldn't have any choice in our medical care at all, we should be forced to go to whichever doctor happened to be assigned to the clinic closest to our house. Imagine if the doctor belittled us, or kept trying to treat us for mental problems when we were really having chronic pain from a real physical problem - and we were told we were undermining the medical profession if we decided to see a different doctor.

I really don't understand the concept that parents should have a choice in pediatricians, which their kids might see once or twice a year, and we are called bad parents if we don't check out day care centers or baby sitters at length to ensure they are okay to leave our kids with. But then we get pissed off if a parent wants a say in which person cares for their child and is responsible for their intellectual development and what environment they are in 6 or 7 hours a day every day for a year, sometimes more.

That's not a call for dismantling or defunding public education. It's a statement in favor of creating choices within the public education that are differentiated for the needs of a wide variety of individuals.

[PeaceNikki]

26. Nice post

:thumbsup:

[fnofsports]

Yeah I think it happens alot...

I forgot to mention I did have this computer program that tried to teach me algebra/geometry concepts towards the end of the 4th grade year, which I had no clue what they were talking about (how was I to know how many degrees are in a triangle) and none of the teachers knew how to teach me.

[Dinger]

35. Here's What You Got:

www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&u_id=240565

[DU GrovelBot]

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[noamnety]

34. lol

I switched to another browser to see what gems the idiot on ignore had to contribute to this discussion. I forgot I added the grovelbot to my list a while back. :D

[RonKindDemocrat]

37. No No No

More technology in schools... yes... more virtual schools... no