question to those in France or Germany

[c0lin]

so I'm trying to find any contacts who are in France/Germany that have background knowledge of the political situation (the last 15 years for instance.) You do not actually need to be physically in either of those countries, just be "in" politically, i.e., having familiarity with their political climate.

I'm wondering if anyone would be able to explain to me the apparent re-emergence of fascism (or the extreme right in any case) in Germany and France (any background info on Le Pen and his movement would be the best.)

Anyway, I figured DU would be a good place to ask considering I imagine we are all like minded in opinion when it comes to fascism ;]


thanks for any help you may give!

[EricL]

1. That's quite a difficult question

All those who oppose the far right (politicians, journalists, citizens...) have tried to explain its growth in order to fight it for more than 20 years with little success

My guess is that demagogy is working well :(

They designate a category of people (i.e. immigrants) as guilty for almost every problem the country may face then promise to send the immigrants back home.

Stupid people buy that.

Here's a link with basic info about the Front National

http://francepolitique.free.fr/PFN.htm

If you have more specific questions feel free to ask, I'll try to answer them.

Also the problem is unfortunately not limited to France and Germany, far right groups are growing almost everywhere in Europe.

[Kellanved]

2. Though Question

In the last decade neo-Nazi organizations got better at working together and at operating inside the rules. Hence it is getting more difficult to ban them outright, as had been the practice in both, France and Germany. I don't know whatever or not there are really more Nazis, it might be that they are just more visible.
It really is a big topic in regional and local politics. One issue is that, while the problem is there all the time, it gets only caught in the spotlight about once-a-year - just to produce actionism without doing any good (and quite some damage).
IMHO there is brown border of 5, maybe 10% in Germany . The degree of organization and camouflage (in the Conservatives etc.) varies; the more visible display in Eastern Germany does not mean that there are fewer Nazis in Western Germany.

[c0lin]

3. very interesting

Great! I got some replies, I almost forgot I made this thread ;]



Thank you for the link Eric; although I was indeed wondering if it were possible to ask you a few more questions.

For instance, like Kellanvad said in reference to Germany, do you think that there actually are more members of the extreme-right out there currently, or are they just more visible to the general public/media in France?

Also, from my current research (which, admittedly seems to favor the opinion that the movement is growing) indicates that much of this political resurgence is due largely in part to the immigration problem. I was wondering if you had any thoughts on this. For example, is it a problem (to a level-headed, average French person) or is it just xenophobia on a grandiose scale?


-------

Kellanvad, I was wondering if you had any other thoughts in general or any links that you could possibly give me. Any help in this quest for understanding would be much appreciated :]


Regardless, thanks go out to the both of you for the help.

[EricL]

4. Difficult questions again

Elections results shows that the extreme-right has grown from almost zero to 20% in 20 years. So I guess it's not only a visibility phenomena.
On the other hand I don't think all people voting for the extreme-right are real fascist (or even understand what it means).
As I said in my previous post I think demagogy is working : less educated people are voting for the man who claim to have simple solutions to any problem.

Immigration in itself is never a problem. Much like the U.S., France has known countless waves of immigrant.
Now combine important immigration with low employment and you get a more problematic situation : immigrants accused of "taking the jobs of the french" while they are in fact the very first victims of unemployment.

The neo-fascist have been prompt to exploit the situation. I remember seeing, published together by a leftist group, two posters :
- one from the Nazis in the 30s saying "400000 Jews - 400000 unemployed the solution is simple"
- one from the Front National saying "3000000 immigrants - 3000000 unemployed : french first"

Again I don't think all the people voting for the far right are really racists or fascist but what good will it make if they finally elect a fascist...

[Kellanved]

5. The basic numbers are difficult to nail down.

But IMHO it is the same as in France: The non-Democratic right is getting a higher vote turnout among it's followers- thus they are able to make an appearance in elections with a low overall turnout without actually have more followers.
Le Pen was a prime example: many had deemed the Election unimportant, the low turnout placed the FN in a position to make an appearance.

The other thing is that the conservatives - at least in Germany - are very active at attracting voters with extreme right ideas. This leads to scandals about once in five years (top politicians giving interviews to Nazi papers, appearing at conferences also attended by Non-Democratic politicians...). It is their idea of being a big tent party.

There are a few basic things: Nazis are strong in areas with few to very few immigrants - they are hardly present in the "problem" districts where one would expect them. Also -in Berlin -they are stronger in the suburbs and the outer/eastern districts and hardly present in the city.

As to informations/links: I highly recommend http://www.klick-nach-rechts.de/ and http://www.hagalil.com/

[EricL]

7. I agree

that a low turnout will favour the extreme right.

It's also true that they get their best results in the areas with the fewer immigrants. I see two reasons to this :

- extreme right try to make people fear the immigrants and you basically fear what you don't know,

- children of immigrants can vote and will not vote for the fascist.

[c0lin]

6. excellent!

Thank you both for the links and the insight, it is much appreciated.

EricL: that slogan is extremely alarming, I'm going to see if I can drag any actual posters on the internet that compare the two.

Again, thanks for the help both of you!

[Iterate]

8. fascists here and there

My perspective is one of an Ami expat with long political experience in the US and much less so in Europe -I'm still learning the ropes here and trying to make sense of German politics.

My impression of the far right here would not include the phrase "re-emergence". There seems to be a minor eb-and-flow of support that coincides with immigration and employment issues, but I don't see anything to be too alarmed about with the far right. Certainly I'd rather the NPD hadn't gotten any seats, but plenty of people are watching them closely. Having said that, I would apply that statement only to the far right, hard-core fascists here, and NPD.

Of a more moderate concern is the appeal of conservatives, and I agree, the camouflaged, apparently moderated appeal, the chipping away at democratic ideals.

My real concern, one that seems to be increasing daily, is the apparent courtship of the conservatives in Germany by the Bush-Republican right. Stoiber met with Schwarzenegger yesterday. Bush met with Merkel here in February.
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/local/states/california/northern_california/11103845.htm

I'm also investigating what I believe to be German front organizations for Bush neocons, likely funded from the US.

I don't think Europeans realize how truly dangerous (and let's face it, effective) the bush-bunch is. Even people on the left/far left who I have talked to in the past few months, people who detest bush, don't have a good picture of the political climate in the US and tend to focus on him personally. It's far too easy to dismiss him as an ill-mannered fool who'll be gone in a few years. The fascists and zealots behind him are the ones to worry about.

Let me save myself some time by quoting from a letter that I wrote to a friend/journalist last week,

"While most people are trying to parse the Bush syntax, those around him speak clearly about a vision of ‘democracy’ that is quite at odds with the one in Europe, a vision that might generally be likened to the one once found at the most liberal edge of the Democratic Party –and we know what happened to them. Europe cannot be tolerated as a successful counter-example to the claims that military action spreads democracy, that security comes from police and loss of civil liberties, that prosperity arises from unrestrained, predatory capitalism, or that only Christian zealotry can lead to a moral society. "

So, it's not just about Iraq or weapons sales to the Chinese.

Anyway, if it looks like I'm getting wound up for a longer GD forum thread, it's because I am.

By the way, how do the twins look this season?