I bet 99% of DU people who go to church on Sundays do NOT visit this forum

[MarkCharles]

It's pretty challenging. It's pretty hostile to true believers. It's pretty harsh, except for those who have an agenda to make sure they get to feel superior to atheists.

That's what I've concluded after a few weeks here.

Comments?

[William769]

1. Wrong.

I don't feel superior to you or any atheist. Don't you just hate that?

[MarkCharles]

2. Not at all, but I think you misunderstood the question

Did you need to assert your beliefs and attempt to insult me for lack of beliefs?

If so, you misunderstood the point of this thread, you simply provided the first example of the point I was trying to make.

[William769]

4. What is the point your trying to make?

I really am curious.

[MarkCharles]

8. Why would your religious views have anything to do with DU?

Isn't that the point? If religious views are so much the part of your political life, don't you need to think why Christianity and Judaism is standing in the way of progress? Not to mention Islam.

But what you religious folks seem to want to do is insult atheists, and assert a moral superiority based upon the supernatural.

How much that looks like Republicanism, astounding.

[pnwmom]

10. Why do atheists go to the Religion forum except to dispute with theists? n/t

[William769]

13. The only insults I see are coming from you.

To begin with it's not a part of my political life, I go after the religious right all the time. Where do I assert my moral superiority? I stand my my original answer your wrong. Your looking for a fight where there isn't one.

If this is how you spend all your time, good luck with that.

[MarkCharles]

26. Maybe you should finish eighth grade spelling first.. I doubt you have the

intellectual caliber for this argument. " I stand my my original answer your wrong. Your looking for a fight where there isn't one."

You need to fix a lot of what is out of place in your brain, before you tackle these issues as an adult.

No one is right or wrong. You seem to be so accusatory at your young age.

Try a basic course in ethics before you finish college. OKAY?

[pnwmom]

6. I think you misunderstood the thrust of the OP.

Dpn't you agree that many of the regular posters on the Religion forum are atheists who seem to be there to attack religious beliefs, rather than to just discuss them?

[William769]

9. I guess that one caught me out in left field.

Maybe I need to take a break.

[pnwmom]

11. Now I"m thinking you were right after all.

Since I've read additional posts.

[William769]

14. I think so too.

Its a shame the tripe some people have to spew to try to feel "superior" above others. I think someone needs to look in a mirror.

[pnwmom]

17. Yes.

Projection does seem to be a factor, if I'm finally reading things correctly.

[MarkCharles]

18. Start with yourself if you think you cannot be bothered to look into deep

philosophical and ethical issues, think you are so SUPERIOR that you need to insult others.

Your arrogance and your attitude betray that of a closet Republican, one who will choose to insult others rather than take on tough issues of conscience and ethical dilemmas in a modern world.

Answer one question for our inferior minds: were you Truman in 1945, would you have killed a million or more Japanese because God was on YOUR side? Or would you have done it for other reasons, or would you have NOT done it, and why?

If you cannot have the honesty and conscience to deal with these questions and give honest answers, why are you posting here?

[pnwmom]

20. The insults started with you and your OP

which I didn't understand at first -- I was expecting better from you.

[MarkCharles]

23. Obviously you still don't understand. So I hope you can figure it..

out in a day or so.

No one should feel superior to anyone else, and you don't get that message other than from your own fear fantasies about my posts. Somehow you still have issues to work out in your own mind if you don't get it yet.

There's not a problem with people like you being not fully evolved. Just finish the work you have started, without insulting others.

[pnwmom]

24. You really are in a snit, aren't you?

:rofl:

[MarkCharles]

27. I guess I got you emotionally angered by my challenged to your brain power

Sorry if it's that far over your head at this early point in your life.

I would expect more from most folks who are committed Democrats, but I see I am often disappointed by their fragile emotional responses. They often back out of serious discussions by insults and laughter. Republicans do the same.

[pnwmom]

31. Your brain power is unchallengeable and limitless.

I bow down to your specialness.

There. Happy now?

[darkstar3]

33. If you hadn't fed it, you might have kept your feet.

[William769]

21. I would have done it to save American lives.

You keep saying this "SUPERIOR" about me and all it's doing is making you look like an ass. The insults keep flying from you in this thread. So yes you need to take a good long hard look in the mirror.

Luckily for you Jesus still loves you. I'll leave you with that thought.

Good night and God bless you.

[MarkCharles]

29. If you FEEL insulted, point out where I made a derogatory statement about you as a person...

there are none... your FEELINGS are subjective, and are the result of your being challenged to think in ways you are not challenged to think often.

Point out where I insulted anything other than your unforgivably juvenile mis-spellings.

You did not give a reason for killing over a million Japanese, you obviously have never given that minor incident any real thought.

Come back to me when you have some mature and fully formed rationales and answers.

[pnwmom]

35. Why do you keep pointing out his mis-spellings when you have made your own?

Hah! Now you have to go on a search and destroy mission through all your other posts!

I promise you, your postings are not error-free. But I won't tell you how many are out there. You'll have to figure that out yourself.

:rofl:

[Thats my opinion]

57. Get a life !

There are plenty of insults in r/t, but they don't come from believers. Take a look at the insult and the put downs just in this thread--by you.Why are you fixated, passionately fixated, on examples of distorted religion? Nobody here works ad nauseam to point out day after day the horrors committed by non-believers. Where are these insults you talk about? That would be a waste of time and get nobody anywhere. But the attacks that never end against a religiosity that none of us on this site believe, say much more about the posters than those of us who offer a positive positive version of belief. Y0u don't want to hear the positive, because it would take away a weapon. Come on MC. simmer down and try just a little honest judgment.

[darkstar3]

61. "They don't come from believers" LOL

You have clearly ignored a large swath of posts. In fact, there is one believer who makes it his habit to insult as many people on this board as he can, and no, I don't mean you.

[SecularMotion]

25. The Religion forum is DU's public square

It's not a haven for believers.

[pnwmom]

32. No, but it would be nice if it were possible for believers

to have a polite discussion without being attacked by atheists. Maybe a different forum?

[darkstar3]

41. You mistake "discussion from other points of view" as "attacks".

You have a safe haven in the liberal believers group, not to mention the Catholic group if I remember your affiliation correctly. Here, all sides have an equal voice.

[pnwmom]

43. I wasn't aware there was a liberal believers group. Has that always been here?

Thanks for the info.

[SecularMotion]

48. You'll find polite discussion in the sub-forums among like-minded members

But not here. The range of viewpoints here is too wide for polite discussion.

The small minority of DU members who hold right wing religious views usually attack outspoken non-believers.

[rrneck]

3. More likely

they have better things to do than listen to someone looking to pick a fight or listen to juvenile insults about a personal choice that's nobody else's business.

[Fumesucker]

30. If religion is a personal choice that's nobody else's business?

Then why do so many believers try so hard to get other people to believe the same as they do?

It's so common there's a word for it, evangelize.

[rrneck]

42. I don't think I've seen a single evangelist here.

But you're right. There are plenty of them in this country making their business a product. Or a club.

[darkstar3]

45. Then you haven't looked very hard. I know two, but I won't "call them out."

[rrneck]

54. PM me if you like.

Just because I haven't seen them doesn't mean they aren't here.

Of course, putting anyone on the defensive right out of the gate can have someone defend most anything to the point they appear to be evangelizing.

[darkstar3]

64. PM done. I believe you will agree that there are indeed evangelists here.

[rrneck]

65. Yes, I do. nt

[humblebum]

5. "those who have an agenda to make sure they get to feel superior to atheists."

"I have a lot of problems with people not thinking logically, and laying themselves out there...
as potential victims of religious leaders who cajole and threaten them into believing what the leader wants them to believe.

I find that so abhorrent to democratic free thought, and I am surprised that others are willing to let people be subjected to such bullshit, and still delude us into thinking that religion has nothing whatsoever to do with democracy, nor anything to do with rational thinking about how we educate children, and pass on the values of our Constitution to the next generation."



All righty, then!?

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pnwmom]

22. There is no way to rationally or scientifically disprove Christianity or any other

religion that by definition, discusses truths that occur outside of the scientifically knowable, material world.

Sorry you're so easily offended by logic.

I'm glad you vote Democratic, however, as I do.

[darkstar3]

36. No, just every single claim made about how the "supernatural" allegedtly interacts with the natural.

[Silent3]

38. Haven't you wandered into R/T enough times...

...to know by now that "You can't prove me wrong!" is pretty weak tea?

[darkstar3]

39. Another reason that point is invalid, thank you.

[pnwmom]

46. It's only weak too for those who never studied logic. nt

[darkstar3]

49. You may be able to say many things about Silent3, but the statement

"he's never studied logic" is most certainly not one of them.

[pnwmom]

52. Then Silent3 must be forgetting what he learned in those courses. n/t

[Silent3]

60. You apparently have forgotten the distinction between...

"disproved" and "merits no special consideration".

[Silent3]

51. I most certainly have studied logic...

...and learned in the course of that study that there are an effectively infinite number of propositions that's can't be proved wrong.

Russel's Teapot is a perfect example (Google is your friend). You can't prove it wrong, but so what? And what about Russel's Tea Cozy? Or that Russell's Teapot is not only out there, but contains a small slip of white paper with the word "daisy" in 14-pt Helvetica? Or a green slip of paper bearing the Chinese symbol for "cat"? You can't prove any of those things wrong, but so what?

Being beyond disproof has no special merit. It's a trivially easy condition to arrive at, which confers no special credence upon an idea or claim at all.

[pnwmom]

53. Exactly. But the fact that there are an infinite number of such propositions

doesn't change the fact that you can't logically disprove the existence of God, no matter how much you might want to.

[darkstar3]

55. A fact which proves exactly what point,

especially considering that no one here is trying to logically disprove God?

[pnwmom]

58. You're right, of course. I haven't seen any logic proofs around here.

Just atheistic claims that can never be proven or disproven.

[darkstar3]

62. If you say so.

:crazy:

[Silent3]

56. I have no need to disprove such a thing.

I merely need to point out that there's no more proof for gods than there is for Russel's Teapot or Invisible Pink Unicorns.

Apart from the fact that various concepts of deities have had varying impacts on human culture, and thus warrant some consideration on those grounds, the actual reality of the existence of deities merits no special consideration beyond the consideration due to myriad other can't-be-disproved claims and ideas.

Go ahead and repeat once more, "But you can't disprove God!", and I'll I agree once more, and once more I'll be totally unimpressed with the significance of it.

[pnwmom]

67. That's fine. I'm not an evangelist so I'm totally unconcerned

that YOU are totally unimpressed.

Have a nice day.

[pnwmom]

7. I wasn't sure what you meant when you said

"except for those who have an agenda . . . "

Do you mean, except for those who want almost every thread to turn into a debate between theists and atheists?

[MarkCharles]

15. I meant to say that no religious believers would bother to ..

be here unless they wanted to argue out their own assertions of belief or non-belief as having a part of their identity as members of the DU.

If that is too hard for you to deal with, perhaps this is not a forum you will be happy reading in.

It's totally your choice. This is NOT a place for all protestants and Catholics to get together with liberal Jews and Muslims and others and all pat themselves on the back.

Sorry if you didn't figure this out yet.

[pnwmom]

19. Wow. You couldn't be more wrong.

You should know that any sentence involving an absolute -- such as "no religious believers" can be refuted with a single counter-example. So here it is.

I myself originally went to the Religion forum not to pat myself on the back -- or other believers -- but to have philosophical discussions about religious beliefs as they affect politics, and visa versa. I didn't go expecting to be attacked by other DUers on the forum for having any beliefs at all. (And I didn't go there to have fights with atheists. I'm not trying to convert anyone.)

What you haven't figured out yet -- and probably never will -- is that there is a vast distance of middle ground between believers who are so smug and certain that they only want to pat themselves on the back for their beliefs, and atheists who consider all religious beliefs to be nothing but evil nonsense.

[MarkCharles]

34. Nothing in your statement proved me "more wrong" in fact, I believe you stated about

the same position I hold, but neither of us are 100% correct in our views.

You chose to pick a fight with my wording for some reason. Please point out what offends you about what I have stated so far.

I will be happy to clarify or re-state it more precisely.

You seem to have an agenda to prove other posters wrong, why?

[pnwmom]

40. Do you really need this clarified? Okay, here you go.

You said: "I meant to say that no religious believers would bother to be here unless they wanted to argue out their own assertions of belief or non-belief as having a part of their identity as members of the DU."

In other words, you said that "no religious believer" would be in the forum for a particular reason that you stated.

I am a religious believer, and I did NOT come to the forum for the reason you stated.

Therefore, you are wrong.

You seem to have come to the religion forum with an agenda to insult people with religious beliefs. Good job, so far.

[MarkCharles]

47. SO what reason do you come here other than to pick a fight with an atheist?

I'd really like to know your reasons.

Do you see the Democratic Party and internet forums about it from a religious viewpoint?

Do you have to assert your religious beliefs in order to feel validated as a Christian, or Jew, or Muslim, or as a Democrat?

Do you need to pick a fight with me because you find me arrogant or because you want to assert your religious beliefs?

Which is it?

"I am a religious believer, and I did NOT come to the forum for the reason you stated."

Why did you come here?

[pnwmom]

50. I already answered that question in post #19.

I didn't pick a fight with you. Originally, I supported you -- until I realized in subsequent posts of yours that you had come here to insult people with religious beliefs.

And yes, I do find you arrogant -- especially your references to your "brain power."

I wouldn't have said so, but you asked . . . .

[elocs]

16. Prove it.

Grand conclusion for being here only a few weeks.

So, why exactly do you come here?

[MarkCharles]

37. I am more interested in the thoughts of others who claim to be Democrats

my beliefs, or lack thereof, are not the subject of this or any thread. I want to know what others are thinking.

You revealed little of your own thoughts. Care to elaborate?

Prove it? Read a few threads here. When did part of the Democratic agenda become stopping or castigating non-religious thought?

[darkstar3]

28. I see a "reveal" in your near future...

[rug]

44. Lol!

I hope DU3 has a shakes head smiley.

[Thats my opinion]

59. This forum has been so toxic for so long that

99% of everybody, including believers won't go near it. There are a few of us who are the exception--and we pay for it with the abuse that regularly comes to anyone who raises their religious heads.

[darkstar3]

63. That's quite a persecution complex you have going on there.

Are you going to deny that you have been abusive to other posters here? That your very first post here was abusive to others?

[Rowdyboy]

66. Good riddance to bad rubbish....

As they say

[jeepnstein]

68. I was with you up until...

the part about "those who have and agenda to make sure they get to feel superior to atheists" part. It's not about superiority, winning, or even proving you're right. As a matter of fact, many of the harshest critics on this board tend to make some very good and well-thought points. If you just spend all your time hanging out with people who agree with everything you have to say you don't really see much in the way of personal growth.

As far as I can tell so far I'm what you would call a true believer. Being a true believer doesn't mean I'm ready to stop listening and learning, and asking dumb questions.