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Why should irresponsible parents have a say in pregnant daughter's choice?

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Democrats_win Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-01-05 03:10 PM
Original message
Why should irresponsible parents have a say in pregnant daughter's choice?
While Dems say Sandy Day protected Roe v. Wade, she severely restricted it when she helped take a minor's choice away again and again. After all, if their parents weren't effective in keeping their daughters from becoming pregnant, why should they be allowed to force their daughter to have the baby? They get a second chance but the daughter doesn't?

When the daughter shows up pregnant, she's of age no matter what the lawyers say. With the christian taliban in control, she'll be FORCED to suffer and possibly put her own life at risk. Then she'll be forced into slave labor at Wal-Mart to pay for the unwanted child.



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okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-01-05 03:14 PM
Response to Original message
1. why shouldn't responsible parents have a say in irresponsible
daughter's choice.
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liberalnurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-01-05 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
2. I think Sandra Day was also
considering the irresponsibility and impulsiveness of the adolescent. Not all parents of pregnant girls are irresponsible. I wish the issue never got to the courts but it did.....push came to shove and parents got the support.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-01-05 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
3. I partly agree with you, partly disagree
Agree: I do not believe in parental notification or parent's being able to limit their child's abortion choice.

Disagree: I also do not believe that parents are irresponsible when a chid gets pregnant as they cannot keep a child from getting pregnant. No matter how good, or effective, of a parent you are, you still do not have ultimate control over your children.

Finally: No parental notification should be mandated. While I would wish a good enough relationship with my child to be involved, the choice to involve me must be up to my child.
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LissaM Donating Member (144 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-01-05 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
4. Gee...
But according to Bush, we're all virgins till we're married.

Like hell Jenna and Barbara are. Could you just see him if they got in trouble?????????????????
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Yalita Donating Member (13 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-02-05 12:18 AM
Response to Original message
5. The same reason
A parent has to sign for any other medical procerdure a minor child has.
And I beg to differ that the parents were irresponsible. Good parents and bad partents alike have children who do what they want from time to time.
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REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-02-05 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Do The Parents Need To Consent For Her to Give Birth?
After all, birth is at least 11 times more dangerous than an early termination, and brith is even riskier in young adolesents. Shouldn't the parents consent to that, since it places their in so much more danger? Why not?
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Yalita Donating Member (13 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-02-05 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Well
like any surgeries or such risk is involved both ways. If you have it or if you dont. And like a surgery the parnets have to consent. Why Should this be any different?
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rebecca_herman Donating Member (494 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-02-05 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Well one reason
Edited on Sat Jul-02-05 04:10 PM by rebecca_herman
is that in every aspect except abortion, in most if not all states a minor girl is considered in some ways emancipated if she becomes pregnant. For example, in most states (it's over 40 of them but I don't know the exact number) an underage girl can give her baby up for adoption even if her parents completely object. The same site I saw that on also said that an underage pregnant girl can consent to any prenatal treatment, including surgery, and a c-section, but didn't cite any laws. So regardless on your feelings on this - whether a minor girl can consent to adoption or delivery - it does create a legal inconsitancy. I mean really, if a 14 year old girl is to immature to choose an abortion, is she really mature enough to give up her child to other people forever?

Ok I found what I was looking for:

"In many areas of the U.S., youths who have not reached their 18th birthday have the right to seek medical and mental health treatment without their parent's or guardians knowledge or consent. "...no state explicitly requires parental consent for contraceptive services; testing or treatment for sexually transmitted diseases including HIV; counseling and medical care for drug and alcohol abuse; or outpatient mental health services. In at least half the states, minors have the explicit authority to consent to contraceptive services and to prenatal care and delivery services. Moreover, 34 states and the District of Columbia explicitly permit a minor mother to place her child for adoption without her own parents' permission or knowledge." 18 However, many states require her either to notify or to get permission from a parent or guardian before obtaining an abortion. As of 2005-APR. 30 states have such laws in place."

It is a legal inconsistancy. http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_pare.htm
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HockeyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-03-05 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Warped minds
I cannot tell you how many Freepers think that if two 17 year olds have consensual sex, that the boy can be charged with statutory rape if the legal age in the state is 18.

I even tried to tell these IDIOTS that very, very few judges would even attempt to prosecute a 19 year old boy and a 17 year old girl for that, let alone two 17 year olds. I said that is why many states have passed laws not just with specific ages, but with age differences, i.e, as in 3 to 5 year age differences.

This just shows you their opinions of WOMEN.

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REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-05-05 04:35 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. Delivery is a Medical Procedure
Many underage girls have to undergo c-sections - which, in case you aren't aware, is surgery. By remaining pregnant, the underage girl is not only putting her health at higher risk than if she undergoes an early termination of pregnancy, she is guaranteeing that she will require an extensive medical procedure with anestheisa (labor and delivery) with a high likelihood of some surgery, whether it be an episiotomy or a c-section.

Again, I ask you: why don't the parents of the underage girl have to give their consent for her to undergo these risks?

As for the Emancipated Minor status, that only occurs once she gives birth - not before. Until then, she is considered a minor (if under age 18 and requiring parental consent for an early termination of pregnancy).

Answer the question this time - don't just duck it like you did last time.
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Yalita Donating Member (13 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-05-05 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. ...
"Again, I ask you: why don't the parents of the underage girl have to give their consent for her to undergo these risks?"

TO be honest I didnt know they didnt. TO my best knowledge parents still had to sign there children in with treatment consent during the pre regristration phase. IF they no longer do that well they should. Ill have to check my local hospitals.
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rebecca_herman Donating Member (494 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-05-05 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Depends on state
From what I posted above:

"In at least half the states, minors have the explicit authority to consent to contraceptive services and to prenatal care and delivery services."

If that is true, than these laws are clearly meant only to try and limit abortions, not to allow the parents to make the decision. Otherwise parents would also be allowed to force an abortion.
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Yalita Donating Member (13 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. I disagree
Currently:

Forty-two states have laws that require a minor to obtain the consent of or to notify an adult, typically a parent, prior to an abortion. (AL, AK, AZ, AR, CA, CO, DE, FL, GA, ID, IL, IN, IA, KS, KY, LA, ME, MD, MA, MI, MN, MS, MO, MT, NE, NV, NJ, NM, NC, ND, OH, PA, RI, SC, SD, TN, TX, UT, VA, WV, WI, WY).

Thirty-two of these laws are currently enforced.

Of the 32 states that currently enforce notice or consent laws, only Idaho and Utah do not have a judicial or other bypass provision allowing a minor to secure a court order in lieu of notifying her parents. (AL, AR, DE, GA, ID, IN, IA, KS, KY, LA, ME, MD, MA, MI, MN, MS, MO, NE, NE, ND, OH, PA, RI, SC, SD, TN, TX, UT, VA, WV, WI, WY).

Eight states permit a minor to notify specified adults, other than her parents, under certain circumstances. (DE, IL, IA, ME, NC, OH, SC, WI).
Delaware, Maryland, and West Virginia permit a minor to obtain an abortion without parental consent or notice in certain circumstances if a physician or health professional waives the requirement.

In Maine, a minor may obtain an abortion without parental consent if a physician has secured the informed written consent of the minor and the minor is mentally and physically competent to give consent.

At least 11 states allow a minor to obtain an abortion without parental consent or notice if she declares she is a victim of abuse, neglect, rape, or incest. (AR, CO, IL, IA, KS, MN, NE, OH, SC, VA, WI). The Colorado Parental Notice ballot initiative that passed in November of 1998, is on stay while the court challenge to its constitutionality is litigated.

Connecticut does not mandate parental consent or notice, but requires that before obtaining an abortion a minor must receive counseling that must include discussion of the possibility of consulting her parents.1
-vs-
* Twenty-seven states and the District of Columbia have laws that specifically authorize a pregnant minor to obtain prenatal care and delivery services without parental consent or notification.


Granted these numbers change on a whim
but from what I found only 2 states you have no choice but parental notification for abortion.
But have 23 states you need consent to give birth.

"If that is true, than these laws are clearly meant only to try and limit abortions, not to allow the parents to make the decision."

Seems the numbers I come up beg to differ just the opposite of your argument.
Granted the numbers differ a little on different sites but all were basically the same.
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Heddi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 03:04 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. please provide a link
thanks
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rebecca_herman Donating Member (494 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. There is still hypocrisy present...
But there are states that have laws that say a minor does not need consent or notification for prenatal care or delivery (it is impossible, due to the math, for there not to be an overlap in some states), but require it for abortion. Therefore, in those states, it is clearly more about limiting abortion than allowing the parents of the minor to decide whether the pregnancy should continue or not.
Also, if it is about the girl being too immature to make such a permanent choice on her own, than how come 34 states have laws that allow a minor to permanently give up her child for adoption without the consent or knowledge of the parents? Adoption is known to cause lifelong psychological problems for some women. I don't know the percentages, but I doubt it's much less than the percentage of women that have lifelong psychological problems from having an abortion.
And if a girl actually managed to get to term without her parents knowing, it's not like the delivery can be prevented anyway. No doctor is going to do an abortion on a healthy teen at 40 weeks because her parents are mad she is about to give birth.
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REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Two Studies for You:
J Obstet Gynecol Neonatal Nurs 1999 Jul-Aug;28(4):395-400
Postadoptive reactions of the relinquishing mother: a review.
Askren HA, Bloom KC.
Deer Valley OB/GYN, Mesa, AZ, USA.

OBJECTIVE: To review the literature addressing the process of relinquishment
as it relates to the birth mother. DATA SOURCES: Computerized searches in
CINAHL; Article 1 st, PsycFIRST, and SocioAbs databases, using the keywords
adoption and relinquishment; and ancestral bibliographies. STUDY SELECTION:
Articles from indexed journals in the English language relevant to the
keywords were evaluated. No studies were located before 1978. Studies that
sampled only an adolescent population were excluded. Twelve studies met the
inclusion criteria and were included in the analysis. DATA EXTRACTION: Data
were extracted and information was organized under the following headings:
grief reaction, long-term effects, efforts to resolve, and influences on the
relinquishment experience. DATA SYNTHESIS: A grief reaction unique to the
relinquishing mother was identified. Although this reaction consists of
features characteristic of the normal grief reaction, these features persist
and often lead to chronic, unresolved grief. CONCLUSIONS: The relinquishing
mother is at risk for long-term physical, psychologic, and social
repercussions. Although interventions have been proposed, little is known
about their effectiveness in preventing or alleviating these repercussions.

Med J Aust 1986 Feb 3;144(3):117-9 Related Articles, Links
Psychological disability in women who relinquish a baby for adoption.
Condon JT.

During 1986, approximately 2000 women in Australia are likely to relinquish
a baby for adoption. A study is presented of 20 relinquishing mothers that
demonstrates a very high incidence of pathological grief reactions which
have failed to resolve although many years have elapsed since the
relinquishment. This group had abnormally high scores for depression and
psychosomatic symptoms on the Middlesex Hospital questionnaire. Factors that
militate against the resolution of grief after relinquishment are discussed.
Guidelines for the medical profession that are aimed at preventing
psychological disability in relinquishing mothers are outlined.

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Yalita Donating Member (13 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Parents rights
ANd there a tons of studies that show women have life long grief from having abortions too.

I am a parent. Come what may i am responsible for my child. And if i were to post on any other topic saying parents didn't have the right to be notified, I would imagine everyone would agree the parents have the right to know.
However i think since you all pro choice you want to win the argument. You say in this one case they are wrong.
Lets face it. If a child isn't mature enough to tell her parents she got pregnant. How is she mature enough to make this decision.
Am i saying the parents have the right to CHOOSE NO. But the parents have the right to know what predicament the child got themselves into. TO offer guidance and information.

I am sure it has happened, however I have never seen a mother tell a child to move out cause they got pregnant. On the other hand, I have seen every child i know scared to tell mom and dad anything out of fear (99 % of the time there parents did not react the dreaded way the child feared).

A child is a minor and a child for a reason. THey have not learned the true realities of life. Have not learned most of there own beliefs and ideas. Do not have the life lessons to draw on.

To be 100% honest.... You say what if the child comes form a horrible home life with abusive parents who may do a b or c to them when they find out. SO the child should be able to make this decision without letting the parents know. Wouldn't you also have to agree. growing up in this family lifestyle that the child doesn't have a correct input on life to make this decision???

Sad to say in the world of politically correctness we are making are own demise. Taking away the rights of parents. Then we wonder why children act out more than they ever did?

Will parent notification be perfect for ever child in ever circumstance? NO
Is there any perfect solution for any circumstance? NO
But the majority of the the children making these decisions are coming from loving homes. Not perfect homes , but loving homes none the less. and these children are acting out of fear. Is there choice they are making right or wrong IDK. But how many of them do what they do because they are scared of there parents and letting them down? And how many parents would really react the way the child fears?

Time for parents to stand up and demand there rights back as parents.
We brought them in this world to teach to guide to love. NO doctor nor clinic professional nor councilor will ever have the child's best interests and love them like a parent!!
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Heddi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. So a child isn't "mature"
enough to decide to have an abortion on her own, therefore, she needs to seek guidance from her parents, since "they have not learned the true realities of life. Have not learned most of there (sic) own beliefs and ideas. Do not have the life lessons to draw on"

BUT---this same child is mature enough, should her parents decide so, to give birth to and parent a child of her own?

On the one hand, a pregnant minor is a mentally incompetent boob who can't choose underwear without Mom's guidance, but on the otherhand, she's well-equipped socially to be a parent to a child ????

And yeah...parents ALWAYS have the best interest of the child in mind :eyes:

The point is, you cannot legislate good relationships between parents and children. If the minor feels she has a good enough relationship with her parents, seh will go to them upon realizing she is pregnant. They will have let her know through years of upbringing, love, and compassion that they can be trusted with such information, and won't judge or condmen her for her behaviour.

Those kids will go to their parents REGARDLESS of what the law is.

What parental notification/permission laws do is try to LEGISLATE a relationship between parents and children that isn't there. Perhaps PARENTS need to be better about not judging their children for making choices that the parents wouldn't have made, and the child will go freely for information.

The children who do not seek the advice of their parents generally do so with good reason. Better reason than YOU have, not living in the household, not knowing the family dynamics, not knowing the individual personalities. Loving homes are one thing, accepting, non-judgemental homes are another.
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rebecca_herman Donating Member (494 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. It's not really about abortion for me
I don't think parents should be able to force an abortion, adoption, or birth. It's simply that due to anti-abortion activists, it's parental notification/consent for abortion only that ends up in the nwes.
I simply feel the consequences of forcing any of these - forcing an abortion a girl who may believe the embryo or fetus is a living child, forcing birth on a girl who cannot bear to be pregnant, and forcing adoption when the girl cannot bear to give up the baby forever - are more likely to have severe and lifelong consequences for the girl than allowing her to make the decision herself.
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Yalita Donating Member (13 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. ...
What parental notification/permission laws do is try to LEGISLATE a relationship between parents and children that isn't there.

DO you honestly buy that? Kids always want their parents to think the best of them hence don't want to tell things they think may change their parents thinking!

If that is the case why arnt you upset that schools make teenagers take their report cards to their parents? WHy do parents have to sign for a minor to drive? Ect ect...

FOr the biggest problem this child has to face is unplanned pregnancy. And on the biggest you say they should be able to do alone.

Then tell me what are parental rights for?

I have a excellent relationship with my mother. If at 16 I ended up pregnant I don't know how i would react. And even though my mother has been nothing but loving and supportive my whole life. I would be terrified to tell her. No she wouldn't beat me or thrown me out of the house. I would have been terrified i let her down!

Get real were are talking about KIDS! Maybe they have adult bodies but they still need guidance. You as a adult now don't look back at your life as a teenager and have any regrets? You didn't lie to your parents about anything did ya? You didn't try to not show your parent a bad grade? Now lets see how honest you are about this? No i don't want your answer I just want you to think about it.

A child goes out a totals his parents car. IF they could hide this secret get away with it without the parent knowing You really think they wouldn't? And realistically the parents may get upset. But i would guess 99% of the parents would be so happy you came out ok the rest is unimportant.

"And yeah...parents ALWAYS have the best interest of the child in mind " You mean you don't? I am sorry for you children then.
Yes i know there are parents who don't. But I DO!!! That is why i want to be notified of anything my kid is in or involved with. SO i can help them advise them, council them, love them, support them!

The saddest part of your debate is this... WHat of the kid who comes from a loving home. Doesn't tell her parent what she gotten herself into. Has a abortion and regrets it. WHO will be there TO help her deal then????? Who will help her with her grief?

The things you say about bad families exist. But get freaking real. How many people mess up there lives hide it from there parents make mistakes and end up at the end going to the parents advice cause they done messed up everywhere else?

I am 32 My kids will mess up. My kids will do something bad sometime somewhere. They will probably try and hide it from me. Cause that is what kids do. But i will always have there best interest in everything i say and do. And i will always be there for them. And i refuse to believe the majority or the world is any different than I. ANd the situations you talk about Mothers throwing them out ect. I just don't see it. HOwever I do see some people who regret never going to their parents for advice.


SO why arnt you upset about report cards having to be seen by the parent?
Why arnt you upset They need your permission to drive?
WHy arnt you upset about all the things a teenager needs from you as their parent. Why because it doesnt fit your cause!

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Heddi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. to compare bad grades to an unplanned pregnancy
is like comparing apples to armadillos.

If you have such a great relationship with your child, then you should have no fear that she wouldn't come to you for support and guidance should s/he find themselves in a terrible situation.

Sure, I lied to my mom about a lot of things, like why I was out past curfiew, or that I went to one friend's house when I really went to another.

However, my relationship with my mother was honest and open, and she actually ENCOURAGED me to get on birth control pills years before I was sexually active. Once I became sexually active, I knew I could go to her, which I did frequently, with any questions or concerns I had. Had I gotten pregnant, I would not for a second waited to talk to her about it. Parental notificaiton laws would have changed not one thing about our relationship.

Had I gotten pregnant as a teenager, her response would have been "what do YOU want to do about this?" and she would have supported my option regardless of what it was.

Can you HONESTLY say that most parents would be so casual and non-judgemental with their children in the same situation?

Here--since you're so fond of irrelevant antecdotes, I'll share one of my own:

When I was about 16, a friend of mine (who was also 16) found out she was pregnant. She didn't tell her parents right away, rather, they found the discarded pregnancy test in the bathroom garbage.

Do you want to know what THEIR response was?

They beat the shit out of her and threw her out of the house. I don't mean a mild spanking and a stern lecture. Her father (with me standing right behind her) punched her in the face as we walked into her house. Totally blindsided her. Her mother pushed me out of the foyer, slammed the door on me, and contined to beat her for several hours. After they got done, they took all of her belongings, including clothes, photos, etc, and set them in the backyard, set them on fire, took her house keys and threw her out. Within an hour, the locks on the house were changed and the phone number was disconnected.

She stayed at my house. My mother and I called CPS on her parents, but CPS was useless and refused to do anything. They didn't even investigate.

My friend went on to get an abortion. This was an unplanned pregnancy in the most sincere form of the word. She was with friends, got drunk, passed out, and was raped by 3 boys we went to school with. None of them used protection. IN addition to getting pregnant, she got syphllis as well. What a nice present, eh?

My mother and I drove her to the clinic and fronted the money for her. This is something her parents NEVER would have done, and actually attempted to sue my mother for 'aiding and abetting the murderer of their grandchild." They weren't successful, btw.

See, they would have forced her to bear this child if she came crawling back to them. But she never went crawling back. It's been 13 years and she's not spoken to them since she was kicked out of the house. Oh, she's tried, but they want nothing to do with her. See, they WANTED her to give birth as 'punishment' for being a whore, out drinking and having wonton sex. The concept of rape has no place in their limited minds, as they feel that all women are lustful and sinful and even if raped, they somehow deserved it.

How would parental notification laws have changed this situation? Well, my friend would have still been homeless at 16 like she was, she would have still been pregnant at 16 like she was, only unlike the situation as it happened, she would NOT have been able to get an abortion without the express permission of her parents. Luckily, at the time, South Carolina had no such parental notification laws, and my friend was able to go in one Saturday and have the procedure done in a safe and medically sound manner.

Again---perhaps if parents showed their children in words AND deeds that they were open to exploring problems TOGETHER, that there would be no punishment or judgment should a child make a mistake, then parental notification laws wouldn't be necessary because EVERY child would go to their parents the minute they found themselves in a sticky situation.

But you know that's the case, and choose to ignore it because it doesn't fit into your delusional, Polly-Annaish utopia where parents and children always see eye to eye and parents NEVER get bent out of shape over something they have no control over.

How do you feel about parents who would DENY abortion for religious reasons and FORCE a teenager to go through 9 months of pregnancy because they personally don't agree with abortion? Do you think that forced pregnancy For ANY Reason is acceptable?

Are you telling me that a 14 or 15 year old going through a pregnancy, going through labour, and the subsiquent physiological and mental changes afterwards (whether the child is kept or put up for adoption) is in the child's best interest?

You do understand that the statisics regarding teenagers that have children are absolutely dim, right? Higher rate of dropping out of school, higher rate of additional pregnancies, higher rate of living in poverty FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIVES, higher rate of becoming addicted to drugs and alcohol, higher rate of living in abusive situations.---are you telling me that THOSE are in the best interest of the teen?

Wow. I'd love to live in the alternate realilty YOU live in. As a nursing student who works in an economically depressed area of the country, I can tell you that every day I see first-hand the devistation that comes with unplanned teen pregnancy that results in birth. It's a dim picture. Perhaps you should go out into the world and talk to kids whose wish for abortion was blocked by their parents or legislators. See how, as adults, THEY feel about that choice being made for them. I have talked to them, and I can tell you that THOSE ex-children, now women, are THE most vocal Pro-Choicers I've ever met. THEY are the ones who are most vocally against parental notificaiton laws, because their parent's choice completely RUINED their lives because, of course "parents always know what's best for their children"

get
real
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Yalita Donating Member (13 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Whatever.
Actually Comparing a child driving to a unplanned pregnancy (while very different) Can be just as enormous.

WHy does a parent have to sign for a child to drive? because it could cost them their child! Just like a abortion. It could result in lifelong suffering if they get crippled or die or watch themselves die or their friends die.
It should be a child's right to drive right? I mean after all that effects their choices. That could change if they finish school. if they get a good job. A job that requires them to drive could pay for their collage. Or could also drive them to a drug dealer.

I live in reality. And the reality is The majority of parents care about there child. I even believe some people who get abortions in there own confused way can care about their child.

Life is a mass of grey Area. But decisions have to be made on a black or white compass. So you have to decide what is best for the majority of the people. And then try to work in ways to help those who fall in the gray.

LIke i posted above. There are only 2 states That a parent has to give permission! If i had it my way there would be none.
If the child deems they have to have one. Well they can go around it by going to court and whatnot. If the child truly wants a abortion and there is serious cause for them not to tell there parents fine they can go to court and get it done. But I feel the majority of people don't fit in that category. And hence maybe a mother or father can help one child.

I see life as a precious gift from conception. I believe there should be no debate about parental consent. Because i believe abortion is murder. I am pro-choice you have the choice to have sex or not. And don't even go down the road of let incest victims and such. Because actually most of the incest victims are drove to the PP clinic by their attacker. to get rid of the evidence to keep up their bad behavior. And the statistics prove that!
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Beaverhausen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. and if the father of the child is mom's abusive boyfriend?
Or the alcoholic uncle?

Most girls do tell their parent(s). The minority who don't have very good reasons for not doing so.

Parental consent is just one step toward overturning Roe.
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Heddi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. But don't forget!
Most incest victims are drove to pp clincs by their attackers, supposedly. Some statistics (somewhere...) show this.

I suppose the same statistics show that most victims of rape are taken to the hospital by their attackers who then go on to pay for the abortion should the victim be pregnant, and even pays for follow-up therapy afterwars. then he sends her flowers and a hearty "i'm sorry" before proposing romatically on the front step. And they live happily ever after.....only after she comes to terms with the fact that she was OBVIOUSLY a wonton whore for being raped. Because, as you know, she's guilty in SOME way. I mean, if she didn't want to get pregnant, she just could have wished the conception away..... :eyes:
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Heddi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. wow. You've got an interesting, uh, perspective
So my friend who was raped and ended up having an abortion shouldn't have had an abortion because seh had the choice to have sex or not...even though she was passed out and gang-raped...it's still her fault for getting pregnant, and she should have been forced to cary that child to term based on the extreme religious beliefs of her parents?

huh?

Please cite the statistics that "most of the incest victims are drove (sic) to the PP clinic by their attacker, to get rid of the evidence to keep up their bad behavior."

Please. PLEASE provide those statistics. I'd LOOOOVE to see them. Being 100% Pro-abortion, I've never seen any statistics that even remotely mirror what you're saying.

And you failed to respond to my points that being a teenage parent puts that teen at a LIFETIME of disadvantages. How does that fit into your world of "life as a precious gift from conception"? How does forcing a 15 year old to live a life of poverty, abuse, uneducation, low-paying jobs, etc, benefit that child?

here's a clue: it does not.

I'm interested to know how many children you've adopted from teen parents. How many teen mothers have you personally walked to an abortion clinic with. How many teenagers have you sheilded from the insults and rehtoric thrown from vicious pro-lifers who feel that "life is a precious gift from conception"?

How many rape victims have you counceled after they've learned that they've become pregnant from their attack? Is that 'life' a precious gift from conception to them? Should they be forced to cary to term a child that was conceived against their will and with violence and humiliation? Is that a precious gift that should be sacrosant?

What about the victims of incest who AREN'T "drove" to planned parenthood by their attackers? Is that a 'precious gift from conception', to know that the child inside of you was fathered by your father, brother, uncle, step-father? Is that girl supposed to look down at that child with love and admiration and remember for the rest of her life being fucked by her father.

Yeah. Good times to be had by all.

How about this--you instill the values and ethics in your child taht you want that child to grow up having. And then, if your child gets pregnant, you deal with it in whatever way you choose.

And, while you're at it, why don't you leave the rest of American Families to raise THEIR child how They See fit, and allow THOSE people to make decisions that ultimately you may not agree with. And remember--no one is forcing YOUR child to have an abortion OR go through a pregnancy.

Leave people to make the decisions they see fit for their own life. You know nothing about anyone's situation other than your own. To feel that you and your views somehow trump me and my views is just arrogant to the nth degree. I think I know more about MY situation and MY wishes regarding pregnancy than you do.

How would you like to live in a world where everything *I* disagree with was legislated away. YOU have to pass a competency test before YOU can have children. YOU are not allowed to listen to country music because I feel it is an abomination. YOU are not allowed to wear any colour but black because to do otherwise hurts my eyes.

Perhaps you wouldn't like to live in that world. But you're perfectly happy relegating everyone else to live in a world that satisfies YOUR morals while completely negating the absolute right to medical privacy of everyone else in the world.

Tell me--how do you feel about women not being able to get tubal ligations without their husbands persmission? Husbands not being able to get vasectomies without their wife's permission? It's really the same thing---why are the rights of one (the minor) trumped for the WISHES of another (parents) okay in your world?

Again, Please provide a link to statistics that most victims of incest are 'drove' to pp clinics by their attackers. I await, although plan to be disapointed because no such statistics exist anywhere except in your mind.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 04:31 AM
Response to Reply #26
37. indeed!

"wow. You've got an interesting, uh, perspective"

But which one is it??

Post 22:

I have a excellent relationship with my mother. If at 16 I ended up pregnant I don't know how i would react. And even though my mother has been nothing but loving and supportive my whole life. I would be terrified to tell her. No she wouldn't beat me or thrown me out of the house. I would have been terrified i let her down!

... I am 32 My kids will mess up. My kids will do something bad sometime somewhere. They will probably try and hide it from me. Cause that is what kids do. But i will always have there best interest in everything i say and do. And i will always be there for them. And i refuse to believe the majority or the world is any different than I. ...

Now, the mixing up of tenses in that first bit does muddy the waters ... but that in itself, when coupled with the other odd bits of orthography (the lower-case prounoun "i" is endemic to a generation that, please tell me, hasn't reached its 30s yet), lends credence to the theory that the main thrust of paragraph 1 is the truer reflection of reality.

Which, uh, leaves us nattering at someone who, in 27 states, was it? isn't old enough to carry out her own choice in this instance without parental consent ... the reason being that she is soooo immature. So maybe we'd best just accept her judgment on that question!

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Heddi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. For the Factually Impaired: TEen Pregnancy Statistics
Yep. Sounds great to me. Let's all encourage our teens to be pregnant as often as possible. Lifetime of opportunity awaits them!!!

http://www.teenshelter.org/data.htm

Nearly one in five teenagers who experience a premarital pregnancy will get pregnant again within a year. Within two years, more than 31 percent will have a repeat pregnancy. One quarter of births to teen mothers in Ca. represents a repeat birth during the teen years.

Although not specifically related to teens, the increase of births to unmarried women has increased dramatically and this obviously contributes to the number of single parents households. Since 1960, births to unmarried women has increased more than 400 percent. In 1960, only 5.3 percent of all births were out of wedlock. By 1990, this had increased to 28.0. The percentage of births is disproportionately higher to educationally & economically disadvantaged mothers.

Although it is not inevitable, the daughters of teen mothers are likely to become pregnant as teens. <8> It is estimated that as high as 75% of pregnant teens had mothers who were also pregnant while as an adolescent.

e cost to our government for teen pregnancy is estimated by several different agencies. Various estimates put it as high as $50,000,000,000 annually, while the low side estimate is a staggering $25,000,000,000. This does not consider the cost of factors other than direct payments. Education, food subsidies, incarceration, WIC and other programs are not included, nor the costs in time and actual money contributed by charitable organizations

46% of single mothers receive public assistance

Of prison inmates between 15 & 19 years of age, 90% are products of an adolescent pregnancy

Three in ten teen mothers go on welfare within three years of the birth of their first child.

Approximately 70 percent of all pregnant adolescents do not receive adequate prenatal care, when in reality, this is the group that needs the most care. <16>

The health risks to the baby are substantially greater. Nine percent of teen moths have low birth weight babies. Low birth weight babies are 40 times more likely to die in their first month of life than normal weight babies.
<17>

Mary's Shelter is a residential home for adolescent teens. We are a state licensed not-for-profit agency serving young pregnant women in need of a residence. Data relating to teen pregnancy is presented with reference information. The same risk factors that contribute to teen pregnancy also contribute to a high incidence of risk for HIV/AIDS and other sexually transmitted diseases.. See facts on STDs.

Teens too often have poor eating habits, and may smoke, drink alcohol and take drugs, increasing the risk that their babies will be born with health problems. Pregnant teens are least likely of all maternal ages to get early and regular care. A teenage mother is more at risk of pregnancy complications such as premature or prolonged labor, anemia and high blood pressure. The risks are even greater for teens who are less than 15 years old.

One in three teen mothers drops out of high school. Teens may not have developed good parenting skills, or have social support systems to help them deal with the stress of raising an infant. <19> Pregnancy and parenting is cited as a major reason for females dropping out of school.

Eighty percent of females who become mothers before the age of eighteen don't finish high school and forty percent of females who give birth by age fifteen don't complete 8th grade

None of these data address yet another victim of teen pregnancy. Hard statistics are difficult to locate, but information from various agencies, including Mary's Shelter, indicate that the father is nearly always older than the mother. Our data show that the younger the birth mother, the greater the age difference between herself and the father. In fact, many of these fathers are guilty of statutory rape, and yet most states do very little to prosecute. The seldom discussed fact is that a percentage of the fathers accept the reality of what they have helped create at yet there are no programs to address their needs are assist them in facing their future in a responsible manner.

http://www.agi-usa.org/pubs/fb_teen_sex.html

Teenagers are less likely than older women to practice contraception without interruption over the course of a year, and more likely to practice contraception sporadically or not at all

A sexually active teenager who does not use contraceptives has a 90% chance of becoming pregnant within one year

Each year, almost 1 million teenage women--10% of all women aged 15-19 and 19% of those who have had sexual intercourse--become pregnant

78% of teen pregnancies are unplanned, accounting for about 1/4 of all accidental pregnancies annually

13% of all U.S. births are to teens

The fathers of babies born to teenage mothers are likely to be older than the women: About 1 in 5 infants born to unmarried minors are fathered by men 5 or more years older than the mother

78% of births to teens occur outside of marriage

1/4 of teenage mothers have a second child within 2 years of their first

Teens who give birth are much more likely to come from poor or low-income families (83%) than are teens who have abortions (61%) or teens in general (38%)

7 in 10 teen mothers complete high school, but they are less likely than women who delay childbearing to go on to college

1/3 of pregnant teens receive inadequate prenatal care; babies born to young mothers are more likely to be low-birth-weight, to have childhood health problems and to be hospitalized than are those born to older mothers

Since 1980, abortion rates among sexually experienced teens have declined steadily, because fewer teens are becoming pregnant, and in recent years, fewer pregnant teens have chosen to have an abortion

The reasons most often given by teens for choosing to have an abortion are being concerned about how having a baby would change their lives, feeling that they are not mature enough to have a child and having financial problems.

61% of minors who have abortions do so with at least one parent's knowledge; 45% of parents are told by their daughter. The great majority of parents support their daughter's decision to have an abortion so much for the idea that parental notification laws are needed because the majority of kids won't tell their parents. Then again, facts don't matter when you're screaming hyperbole--hed

http://www.marchofdimes.com/professionals/14332_1159.asp

Teen mothers are more likely than mothers over age 20 to give birth prematurely (before 37 completed weeks of pregnancy). In 2002, the 7,315 girls under age 15 who gave birth were more than twice as likely to deliver prematurely than women ages 30 to 34 (21 vs. 9 percent).2 Babies born too soon face an increased risk of newborn health problems and even death, as well as lasting disabilities.

Teens too often have poor eating habits, neglect to take their vitamins, and may smoke, drink alcohol and take drugs, increasing the risk that their babies will be born with health problems. Studies also show that teens are less likely than older women to be of adequate pre-pregnancy weight and/or to gain an adequate amount of weight during pregnancy (25 to 35 pounds is recommended for women of normal weight). Low weight gain increases the risk of having a low-birthweight baby (less than 5½ pounds).

# Pregnant teens are more likely to smoke than pregnant women over age 25. In 2002, 13.4 percent of pregnant teens ages 15 to 17 and 18.2 percent of those ages 18 to 19 smoked, compared to 11.4 of all pregnant women.2 Smoking doubles a woman’s risk of having a low-birthweight baby, and also increases the risk of pregnancy complications, premature birth and stillbirth.

# Pregnant teens are least likely of all maternal age groups to get early and regular prenatal care. In 2002, 6.6 percent of mothers ages 15 to 19 years received late or no prenatal care (compared to 3.6 percent for all ages).2

# A teenage mother is at greater risk than women over age 20 for pregnancy complications such as premature labor, anemia and high blood pressure. These risks are even greater for teens who are under 15 years old.2 These youngest mothers also may be more than twice as likely to die of pregnancy complications than mothers ages 20 to 24

# Three million teens are affected by sexually transmitted diseases annually, out of a total of 12 million cases reported. These include chlamydia (which can cause sterility), syphilis (which can cause blindness, maternal death, and death of the infant) and HIV (the virus which causes AIDS, which may be fatal to the mother and infant).4

In 2002, 9.6 percent of mothers ages 15 to 19 years had a low-birthweight baby (under 5.5 pounds), compared to 7.8 percent for mothers of all ages. The risk is higher for younger mothers: 11.3 percent of 15-year-old mothers had a low-birthweight baby in 2002 (18,703 girls this age gave birth, and 2,112 had low birthweight babies), compared to 8.9 percent of women aged 19 (168,111 births, with 14,920 of low birthweight).2

Low-birthweight babies may have organs that are not fully developed. This can lead to lung problems such as respiratory distress syndrome, or bleeding in the brain, vision loss and serious intestinal problems.

Low-birthweight babies are more than 20 times as likely to die in their first year of life as normal-weight babies


Teen mothers are more likely to drop out of high school than girls who delay childbearing. A 1997 study showed that only 41 percent of teenagers who have children before age 18 go on to graduate from high school compared to 61 percent of teens from similar social and economic backgrounds who did not give birth until ages 20 or 21.5

With her education cut short, a teenage mother may lack job skills, making it hard for her to find and keep a job. A teenage mother may become financially dependent on her family or on public assistance. Teen mothers are more likely to live in poverty than women who delay childbearing, and over 75 percent of all unmarried teen mothers go on welfare within 5 years of the birth of their first child.

A child born to an unmarried teenage high school dropout is 10 times as likely as other children to be living in poverty at ages 8 to 12.

A child born to a teenage mother is 50 percent more likely to repeat a grade in school, and is more likely to perform poorly on standardized tests and drop out before finishing high school.


----

So let's just encourage teens to get pregnant and have them babies! Look at the wonderful opportunities that not only await them, BUT their little gifts from conception as well!!! Truly, I now wish I'd gotten pregnant when I was a teen...sounds so.....fulfilling a life to live
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REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #24
30. Document or Retract, You Lying Sack Of Shit
Edited on Tue Jul-12-05 12:31 AM by REP
And don't even go down the road of let incest victims and such. Because actually most of the incest victims are drove to the PP clinic by their attacker. to get rid of the evidence to keep up their bad behavior. And the statistics prove that!

Cite your statistics or go straight to hell.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 04:17 AM
Response to Reply #30
35. what -- you mean

you missed the link to www.allthefalsenumbersandliesyou'llneedformakingabortionillegal.com??

And here I thought it was cited regularly hereabouts!

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REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 04:47 AM
Response to Reply #35
40. I Just Have
i'maparentsoiknowwhati'mtalkingaboutidon'tneedfacts.com
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REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #19
29. "Tons" of Studies? Then Cite Just One
I'm waiting. Oh, it has to be a PEER-REVIEWED study, like the two I provided, not any self-selected sample.

As for your twaddle about being a parent, yadda yadda yadda, I didn't mention a thing about your reproductive status, since this is not what this discussion is about. It's about whether states can require the undue burden of requiring a pregnant girl who has not reached her majority to get the consent of her parents for a minor medical procedure, and why she does not need their consent to continue a pregnancy, which is FAR riskier to her health, not to mention her future.
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Heddi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 04:10 AM
Response to Reply #29
33. no, no, see
you don't NEED studies. The poster states, emphatically none the less, that most victims of incest are drove (ha!) to the clinic by their attacker. See...it's written on the internet by an anonymous poster..therefore, it MUST be true.

ANd of course we both know this, but I googled every single rape/incest/abortion stat and not ONE SINGLE WEBSITE--pro choice or anti-choice had ANYTHING remotely close to saying that the majority of incest victims are drove to the clinic by their attackers. NOT ONE.

Surely..SURELY someone wouldn't make up something like that just to prove an unprovable point, would they? Please tell me it ain't so. I must read about the hundreds of millions of girls that were droved to the clinic by their well-meaning rapers

I also hear there are TONS of studies proving that, not only after them was droved to the clinic, that they were taken out for a nice lobster dinner and wound up the evening having a tasty beverage whist watching re-runs of Airplane! on TNT. I mean, studies say it, even if they don't.
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REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 04:45 AM
Response to Reply #33
39. I'm Shocked, I Tell You ... SHOCKED!
Are you implying that our dear, dear friend has been droven (snigger) to lying because she can't make her case any other way? But I beg you to reconsider! She is, or so she claims, a parent after all, and that gives her special insightfulness! She has gaven (ha) her dotter the proper life input to cherish life from the moment of conceptualality!
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Heddi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. dotter? holy shit
thank you for making me vomit from laughing so hard
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REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #41
47. That's Proper INPUT, not OUTPUT
If you had the proper life experiencials and righteousness upbranging, you woodn't of thruw up.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 04:10 AM
Response to Reply #19
34. and the question remains
Lets face it. If a child isn't mature enough to tell her parents she got pregnant. How is she mature enough to make this decision.

So how is it that she is mature enough to make the other decision -- to choose to continue the pregnancy and give birth?

Another miracle?

If her maturity (and not the specious "it's surgery" argument) is the issue, why isn't what's sauce for the unhappily pregnant teenager also sauce for the happily pregnant teenager? How does she know so much better (than the unhappy one, and than her unhappy parents) what's good for her? Why can her parents not refuse consent for her plan or even be entitled to be informed of it?

Wouldn't you also have to agree. growing up in this family lifestyle that the child doesn't have a correct input on life to make this decision???

Mm hmm ... but she is, of course, a prime candidate for making the decision to continue a pregnancy that, statistically, involves significant risks to herself, and have a kid.

Yup. It's a miracle.

Time for parents to stand up and demand there rights back as parents. We brought them in this world ...

to do whatever the hell we fell like doing to/with them!

Or so I guess.

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REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 04:39 AM
Response to Reply #19
38. You Overlook The Obvious, Yet Again
Wouldn't you also have to agree. growing up in this family lifestyle that the child doesn't have a correct input on life to make this decision???

I'd say if she's pregnant, she did indeed have the correct input.

Are you sure you're not simply parodying the antiabortnoid worldview? Your written language is so appallingly bad I can't expect you intend anyone to take you or it seriously.
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Heddi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. Oh be easy on our friend :)
your being mean to her, after, alll, i mean she showwed us about the statiz...status...numbers that incesters droved their victums to the clinic. DROVED THEIR VICTUMS TO THE CLINIC four gods' sake!!!

Now your making a molehill. There parent's's's wrights, you know. Your taking the wrights'''' of parents'''''''''''''''''' out of the equayson

You no, aloweng a child to make a decisin to have an ABORTION is like aloweng a child to BUY A HOUSE without there parent's' nowing!!!
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 04:02 AM
Response to Reply #13
31. it's a miracle!
Sheesh, I wander off for a few weeks, and I come back to find stuff like this:

from what I found only 2 states you have no choice but parental notification for abortion. But have 23 states you need consent to give birth.

You need consent to give birth???

So what happens ... the parents deny consent, and the young woman just stays pregnant until her 18th birthday?

My goodness, what they can't do these days.

Twenty-seven states and the District of Columbia have laws that specifically authorize a pregnant minor to obtain prenatal care and delivery services without parental consent or notification.

Now, if we try looking at this rationally (I know that might be a novel idea and a difficult stretch) -- what might it mean?

Do we suppose it is likely that the parents would then be permitted to DENY that medical care? Not to deny consent to it -- but to deny the actual care, that is. Somehow, I don't think so. A parent really just may not deny essential medical care on a whim. A parent would not be able to coerce the young woman into terminating her pregnancy by denying consent to prenatal and delivery care. Really.

And then there's the little fact that a young woman who is pregnant and choosing to continue the pregnancy isn't likely planning on keeping the whole thing a big secret. That can be just a little difficult to do. So a parental notification/consent requirement becomes just a bit more moot than in the case of termination.

Now, the issue wasn't the number of states where one thing or another thing is required, as if this were some kind of pissing contest.

The issue was whether consent/notification should be required.

I don't quite see how showing that consent to "x" is required in "y" number of US states, under laws that appear to be applicable only in some alternate universe anyway, helps with the question of whether consent to "z" should be required anywhere.

And the fact remains: even if no prenatal care is sought out, a young woman who does not terminate her pregnancy is very likely going to go into labour at some point. And then she is going to need medical care, whether anyone consents to it or not. And it really isn't going to matter too much whether anyone does consent to it or not, doncha think? Denying her the care -- whether the denial was by a health care provider who refused to act without parental consent, or by the parent who refused to give consent -- just wouldn't be an option.

So basically, we have a pregnant young woman who is going to experience a major medical event (REP did point out the common consequences), and who doesn't require parental consent in order to do that. She is legally entitled to continue the pregnancy, on her own whim, and thus to require and obtain medical care of some sort, and her parents be damned. Her parents may not refuse consent to her doing that -- i.e., may not compel her not to do it.

Maybe you addressed the actual issue in some subsequent post ... but I just had to raise my arms in recognition of the miraculous state of affairs in those 23 states where young women need consent to give birth ...



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Heddi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 04:05 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. har!
Best.
Reply.
Ever.

Do you hear that whooshing sound? That's the sound of your most salient points zooming right over the head of the logically challenged folks reading this thread.

Of course, one must never let logic or actual facts get in the way of a good, empty argument devoid of any semblance of truth, no?

I want these lines tattooed on my back:

You need consent to give birth???

So what happens ... the parents deny consent, and the young woman just stays pregnant until her 18th birthday?

My goodness, what they can't do these days.

ha ha ha haha
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AirForceof1 Donating Member (19 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-10-05 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
15. Parents Rights
As long as the parent is the one footing the bill the daughter should have to notify them.
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gollygee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-11-05 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. So does that mean that if the daughter has another way to pay
the parents don't need to be notified?

Obviously the parents would know if they're paying. I don't get it.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 04:21 AM
Response to Reply #15
36. yup; just like if yr dog gets runned over

Yer the one paying the vet bill, so yer the one gets to decide whether to put to sleep or not.

It's that god gave them dominion stuff, isn't it?

Dominion over the flowers and fishies and four-legged beasties, and their daughters' bodies and minds ...



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Heddi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #36
43. no no..
it's like your dog getting DROVED over..... :rofl:
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. hush!
Edited on Tue Jul-12-05 01:43 PM by iverglas

all right, :rofl:


ps - who gets to claim the kill? I think that at 5 a.m.ish, I was probably late off the mark.

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Heddi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. Well I was posting til about 1:30 or 2:00am PST
So I don't know.

I think it was a group effort....

let's all pat ourselves on the back.

:)
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REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. I Just Sprained My Arm
After all, I did start it by asking her the brain-bending question (preen, preen, sprain, ouch!).
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #46
48. let's not overlook

the one we're all gathered under at present ...

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