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After 9 year old Brazilian girl is raped by her stepfather, outraged archbishop

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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 02:53 PM
Original message
After 9 year old Brazilian girl is raped by her stepfather, outraged archbishop
vows to excommunicate those who helped her get an abortion, including her mother:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7926694.stm

(incidentally, the Roman Catholic Church APPROVES of abortion in cases of rape or incest, and especially rape AND incest)

The stepfather was also accused of sexually molesting the girl's 14 year old mentally challenged sister.

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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
1. In the wake of all of this...
The step-father will probably wind up being ordained.
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ReliantJ Donating Member (680 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
2. I'm sure the Church is on their list of priorities.
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
3. What happened to the stepfather? Was he ever prosecuted?
??
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Ah, never mind - here it is:
>>Her stepfather was arrested last week, allegedly as he tried to escape to another region of the country.<<
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Well, just because the archbishop is a prick doesn't mean the Brazilian government is also evil.
I was pretty sure that Lula wouldn't let the bastard get away.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
6. Yet the rapist is able to receive that church's sacraments
after he confesses.

If that doesn't point out where the church hierarchy is really at, nothing will.
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SheilaT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
7. How sad. How pathetic.
How misogynist can a man be?

This is an example (extreme as it may be) of why I oppose all organized religions. Because at some point at least some of its adherents start thinking that the rules they have made up, are more important than things like humanitarian considerations.
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Iris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-06-09 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
8. I don't think the church approves of abortionin any case, not even the life of the mother.
I have never heard or seen anything that indicates the church approves of abortion in cases of rape or incest.

I would like to, though.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 03:43 PM
Response to Original message
9. the RC church does *not* approve of abortion in any circumstances

ever. It tolerates terminating an ectopic pregnancy because the aim is to save the woman's life and the termination of a pregnancy that would not succeed in any event is a by-product. That is the only "exception" to its rule.

The Brazilian bishop's public condemnation of the mother and doctors has since been roundly condemned by leading RC figures -- at least, condemned in the kind of terms they suggest the bishop himself should have used: urging to be faithful to RC/Christian teachings about love. ;) A Canadian bishop who was in Rome at the time, for instance, has issued a statement of solidarity with Archbishop Rino Fisichella who criticized the Brazilian bishop.

The girl was 9 years old, had been sexually assaulted by her stepfather, and was pregnant with twins. The idea of a 9-year-old being subject (it seems) to repeated sexual violence and being pregnant with, carrying and delivering twins ... boggles the mind from every angle.

Being a necessary party to an abortion results in automatic (latae sententiae) excommunication from the RC church. The Brazilian bishop didn't actually have to decide to excommunicate anyone; they excommunicated themselves. It was the terms in which he spoke of the mother in particular, and also the doctors, described as being at a difficult moral crossroads, that distressed other RC leaders.

An article about Archbishop Fisichella's criticism:

http://www.cathnews.com/article.aspx?aeid=12377

This is the Brazilian bishop's response to criticisms (forgive the source, but it's where you find stuff like this):

http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2009/mar/09031805.html
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HockeyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Oh, really?
What they did with me and my ectopic pregnancy was WAIT and bide for time. They waited until my tube burst so they wouldn't have to "kill" the baby. Of course, then they had to save MY life.

That is good medicine?
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. whoa

Who's this "they"? Doctors? The RC Church doesn't actually perform surgical procedures I think.

The RC Church does own hospitals, and does tell the doctors who work in them what to do. Was this your situation?

I don't think you heard me saying that things like what happened to you was "good medicine", so I hope your question -- That is good medicine? -- wasan't directed at me. I'd hope you did direct it at the doctors and hospital responsible for your health care. My answer would be "no". Their answer should have been measured in thousands of dollars, in compensation for negligent care.

I was merely citing RC Church rules.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01046b.htm

And note that *I* don't spout nonsense like the "self-evolution" of embryos, which derive nourishment from placentas (no women to see there; move along).


... In the normal course of nature the living embryo carries on its work of, self-evolution within the maternal womb, deriving its nourishment from the placenta through the vital cord, till, on reaching maturity, it is by the contraction of the uterus issued to lead its separate life. Abortion is a fatal termination of this process. It may result from various causes, which may be classed under two heads, accidental and intentional.

Accidental causes may be of many different kinds. Sometimes the embryo, instead of developing in the uterus, remains in one of the ovaries, or gets lodged in one of the Fallopian tubes, or is precipitated into the abdomen, resulting, in any of these cases, in an ectopic, or extra-uterine gestation. This almost invariably brings on the death of the fetus, and is besides often fraught with serious danger to the mother. Even if an ectopic child should live to maturity, it cannot be born by the natural channel -- but, once it has become viable, it may be saved by a surgical operation. ...

Intentional abortions are distinguished by medical writers into two classes.
...
* The name of obstetrical abortion is given by physicians to such as is performed to save the life of the mother. Whether this practice is ever morally lawful we shall consider below.

... Ethics, then, and the Church agree in teaching that no action is lawful which directly destroys fetal life. It is also clear that extracting the living fetus before it is viable, is destroying its life as directly as it would be killing a grown man directly to plunge him into a medium in which he cannot live, and hold him there till he expires.

However, if medical treatment or surgical operation, necessary to save a mother's life, is applied to her organism (though the child's death would, or at least might, follow as a regretted but unavoidable consequence), it should not be maintained that the fetal life is thereby directly attacked. Moralists agree that we are not always prohibited from doing what is lawful in itself, though evil consequences may follow which we do not desire. The good effects of our acts are then directly intended, and the regretted evil consequences are reluctantly permitted to follow because we cannot avoid them. The evil thus permitted is said to be indirectly intended. It is not imputed to us provided four conditions are verified, namely:

* That we do not wish the evil effects, but make all reasonable efforts to avoid them;
* That the immediate effect be good in itself;
* That the evil is not made a means to obtain the good effect; for this would be to do evil that good might come of it -- a procedure never allowed;
* That the good effect be as important at least as the evil effect.

All four conditions may be verified in treating or operating on a woman with child. The death of the child is not intended, and every reasonable precaution is taken to save its life; the immediate effect intended, the mother's life, is good -- no harm is done to the child in order to save the mother -- the saving of the mother's life is in itself as good as the saving of the child's life.


My understanding of this is that the RC Church does not regard life-saving surgery on a woman with an ectopic pregnancy, to remove the embryo from her Fallopian tube, in the same way as other abortions. The embryo is removed to save her life, and the death of the embryo is the unintended evil consequence.

Angels on the points of pins ... and I'm not the one playing the tune they're dancing to.

My point was that the RC Church *never* condones abortion, whether the circumstances be rape, incest, or rape & incest.

If your doctors decided their treatment of you on the basis of RC dogma rather than your health, and endangered your life as a result, I hope you held them, and any hospital authorities under whose orders they were acting, accountable for it.
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Iris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-06-09 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. "Even if an ectopic child should live to maturity, it cannot be born by the natural channel -- "
Edited on Mon Apr-06-09 02:43 PM by Iris
omg! What an astounding observation!

Thanks for posting this, iverglas. There have some erroneous posts floating around that seem to believe the RCC approves of abortion to save the life of the mother.
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caseymoz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-04-09 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. That's called the cover-your-ass approach to medicine.

They wouldn't come near breaking the dogma and creating a scandal. No, they'd rather put your life in danger and then make valiant efforts to save you.
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